Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 106

Thread: Teaser: EEF was 90% Anatolian

  1. #1
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    1 members found this post helpful.

    Teaser: EEF was 90% Anatolian

    Another teasar from authors with 34 (6300 BC)Neolithic Western Anatolian genomes: Close genetic relationship of Neolithic Anatolians to early European farmers:

    BTW: By EEF I mean Early Neolithic European genomes from Hungary, Croatia, Germany, and Spain dating between 5000 and 5500 BC.

    This abstract is consistent with ANE K8 results Davidski got for a low coverage Neolithic Western Anatolian(see results here). By most estimates I've seen this makes all modern Europeans at least 30%+ Neolithic Anatolian. It makes some over 50%, there's a lot of regional variation. Neolithic Anatolian ancestry is highest in Southern Europe.

    There's certainly Neolithic Anatolian-type ancestry in West Asia today as well it's just harder to detect because we don't know who the other ancestors of West Asians. We know Yamnaya and WHG-types are main other ancestors of Europeans and therefore can model them more easily.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Fluffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-11-14
    Posts
    179
    Points
    5,720
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,720, Level: 22
    Level completed: 34%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a l497 s10458
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1n

    Ethnic group
    Dutch / French
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    3 hundred Yankee's lie stiff in southern dust, we got 3 hundred thousand before they conquered us.
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    17,542
    Points
    380,217
    Level
    100
    Points: 380,217, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Another teasar from authors with 34 (6300 BC)Neolithic Western Anatolian genomes: Close genetic relationship of Neolithic Anatolians to early European farmers:

    BTW: By EEF I mean Early Neolithic European genomes from Hungary, Croatia, Germany, and Spain dating between 5000 and 5500 BC.

    This abstract is consistent with ANE K8 results Davidski got for a low coverage Neolithic Western Anatolian(see results here). By most estimates I've seen this makes all modern Europeans at least 30%+ Neolithic Anatolian. It makes some over 50%, there's a lot of regional variation. Neolithic Anatolian ancestry is highest in Southern Europe.

    There's certainly Neolithic Anatolian-type ancestry in West Asia today as well it's just harder to detect because we don't know who the other ancestors of West Asians. We know Yamnaya and WHG-types are main other ancestors of Europeans and therefore can model them more easily.
    Where are you getting your "estimates"? It's pretty easy to "estimate" just by using the EEF numbers in Lazardis et al. Very few European groups only have 30%, and most of those are low population countries.
    Lazaridis et al 3 population figures.jpg


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    3 hundred Yankee's lie stiff in southern dust, we got 3 hundred thousand before they conquered us.
    what's is this comment all about?............are your ancestors from one of the 4 northern slave-states ( Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland or Delaware )
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Another teasar from authors with 34 (6300 BC)Neolithic Western Anatolian genomes: Close genetic relationship of Neolithic Anatolians to early European farmers:

    BTW: By EEF I mean Early Neolithic European genomes from Hungary, Croatia, Germany, and Spain dating between 5000 and 5500 BC.

    This abstract is consistent with ANE K8 results Davidski got for a low coverage Neolithic Western Anatolian(see results here). By most estimates I've seen this makes all modern Europeans at least 30%+ Neolithic Anatolian. It makes some over 50%, there's a lot of regional variation. Neolithic Anatolian ancestry is highest in Southern Europe.

    There's certainly Neolithic Anatolian-type ancestry in West Asia today as well it's just harder to detect because we don't know who the other ancestors of West Asians. We know Yamnaya and WHG-types are main other ancestors of Europeans and therefore can model them more easily.
    you do realise that Laz only ever mentioned EEF and that the ENF term was fabricated by amateurs based on suspect numbers.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Fluffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-11-14
    Posts
    179
    Points
    5,720
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,720, Level: 22
    Level completed: 34%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a l497 s10458
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1n

    Ethnic group
    Dutch / French
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    what's is this comment all about?............are your ancestors from one of the 4 northern slave-states ( Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland or Delaware )
    No no. I was just listening to the song I'm a good ol rebel and felt like saying that.

  7. #7
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Where are you getting your "estimates"? It's pretty easy to "estimate" just by using the EEF numbers in Lazardis et al. Very few European groups only have 30%, and most of those are low population countries.
    Lazaridis et al 3 population figures.jpg
    Near Eastern ancestry that is not EEF raises EEF scores. Ashkenazi Jews are the best example of this. There's SW Asian and Steppe-derived Near Eastern ancestry in Europe.

  8. #8
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    17,542
    Points
    380,217
    Level
    100
    Points: 380,217, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Near Eastern ancestry that is not EEF raises EEF scores. Ashkenazi Jews are the best example of this. There's SW Asian and Steppe-derived Near Eastern ancestry in Europe.
    Well, let's follow this through logically then. If steppe ancestry raises EEF (presumably through the half "modern Near Eastern" in the Yamnaya), and any other post Neolithic gene flows into Europe from the area of the Near East raise EEF (presumably through people who were a mix of EEF/ANE), then if we take 10 points off that EEF figure, what's left might be an approximation for "early Near Eastern farmer" in modern Europeans, yes? It has to be the same genes, doesn't it, or it wouldn't raise the EEF number?

    So, IF that's correct, we have the following for early Neolithic farmer ancestry in Europe:
    The isolated far north east: Estonians 22%, Lithuanians 26%
    Scots, Belorussians: 30-32%
    Ukrainians: 36%
    English, Czechs (perhaps a good stand in for Germans?) 40%
    Hungarians 46%
    Southern French (Southwest France) 58%
    Northern Italians/Bulgarians 61%
    Tuscans 64%
    Spaniards 71%
    Sicilians 80%

    and so on.

    This isn't very far from the numbers your source provided. At least 30% for far northern Europe. The difference is that it's closer to around 60% at least for southern Europe, not 50%, and from 40 to close to 50% for northwest and central Europe.

    Those happen to be the kind of numbers I've been proposing for years, but of course, I'm an amateur. When the paper comes out later this week we'll see what the experts have to say about it.

    Oh, and you keep saying that SWAsian came to Europe post Neolithic Fire-Haired, and I keep showing you that it was in the Neolithic farmers:

    See:K7 and K12 for ancient samples.jpg

    Now, how precisely do you know that the SW Asian in northern Italians, for example, which is 5.3, less than in Oetzi (7.8 in Tuscans, which is just about the same) is all from post Neolithic gene flow and does not survive from the Neolithic? The answer, Fire-Haired, is that you can't know, and neither can anyone else until we get ancient dna showing that it was all wiped out and then re-introduced.

    I think we should all have learned by now to stick to comparisons with ancient samples instead of "extrapolating" components, yes?

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    100 Experience Points31 days registered
    Sigfrido's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-09-15
    Posts
    53


    Country: Italy



    Wasn't Barcin Neolitich farmer about 20% Red Sea? And how much SWA would he score? 25%?

  10. #10
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    17,542
    Points
    380,217
    Level
    100
    Points: 380,217, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    Wasn't Barcin Neolitich farmer about 20% Red Sea? And how much SWA would he score? 25%?
    I don't have any data for Red Sea for Barcin. The only thing I ever saw was the following, which doesn't make much sense to me because it shows Stuttgart with over 10% SWAsian, and Barcin with none.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Pak/edit#gid=0

    Stuttgart would have been Barcin like with 10% European hunter-gatherer, so how could LBK have more SWAsian than Barcin?

    Perhaps the Barcin sample is so low coverage that it's giving false results?

  11. #11
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Oh, and you keep saying that SWAsian came to Europe post Neolithic Fire-Haired, and I keep showing you that it was in the Neolithic farmers:

    See:K7 and K12 for ancient samples.jpg

    Now, how precisely do you know that the SW Asian in northern Italians, for example, which is 5.3, less than in Oetzi (7.8 in Tuscans, which is just about the same) is all from post Neolithic gene flow and does not survive from the Neolithic? The answer, Fire-Haired, is that you can't know, and neither can anyone else until we get ancient dna showing that it was all wiped out and then re-introduced.

    I think we should all have learned by now to stick to comparisons with ancient samples instead of "extrapolating" components, yes?
    I have not looked at any data recently. I'll wait for more research. Davidski thinks there was movements from SW Asia into SE Europe in the Bronze and Iron ages. He thinks there was lots of contact with SW Asians in those periods. I don't know what archaeology/history says about that. From what I remember it isn't much of a stretch to model most SE Europeans as EEF+Yamnaya or EEF+Yamnaya+SW Asian. I'm undecided on this topic(except for some like Sicilians with very low WHG and still ANE). mtDNA wise there isn't much of a West Asian signal(see here), but typical West Asian clades do appear. I want to see Y DNA data. I know there's a lot of J2 and E1b in SE Europe but apparently it's of differnt clades than what's in SW Asia. It's confusing, who could be the source, an unsampled people?

    I think we should be more open-minded about possible origins like people were before ancient DNA. We can generally model everyone in a big region in the same ancestral components but within every region/ethnicity there's 1,000s of years and generation after generation of specificity. EEF in one region isn't the same as EEF in another region. Labels like EEF, WHG, etc. are real but mask diversity.

    My philosophy on genetics is: No one in the past knew much about history or geography, beyond their little region and a few generations. If given the opportunity to mix with someone who is genetically very differnt most of the time populations will do that to some degree. Ancestral origins are complicated. They're only simple if a population remains isolated which rarely happens. Even in genetically uniform(eg America) regions you have lots of differnt ethnic groups who mix with each other.

    And so considering how big West Asia, Europe, Central Asia is and how many generations and years we're talking about there's 1,000s of possibilities.

  12. #12
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    17,542
    Points
    380,217
    Level
    100
    Points: 380,217, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    As to the following, we agree:
    Fire-Haired:I think we should be more open-minded about possible origins like people were before ancient DNA. We can generally model everyone in a big region in the same ancestral components but within every region/ethnicity there's 1,000s of years and generation after generation of specificity. EEF in one region isn't the same as EEF in another region. Labels like EEF, WHG, etc. are real but mask diversity.

    My philosophy on genetics is: No one in the past knew much about history or geography, beyond their little region and a few generations. If given the opportunity to mix with someone who is genetically very differnt most of the time populations will do that to some degree. Ancestral origins are complicated. They're only simple if a population remains isolated which rarely happens. Even in genetically uniform(eg America) regions you have lots of differnt ethnic groups who mix with each other.

    And so considering how big West Asia, Europe, Central Asia is and how many generations and years we're talking about there's 1,000s of possibilities.
    As to the other part of your comment, I'm totally open to whatever the ancient dna will show. I would add, however, what I said to someone else just recently. It doesn't matter when certain genetic material entered your family or "ethnic" line, or with what particular culture. It's the same genes. So, I disagree that the EEF, for example, or more precisely the early Near Eastern farmer ancestry somehow became "different" because it was packaged with different genes at different times. As Lazaridis pointed out, all the many migrations into Europe and within Europe were just different combinations, in different proportions, of the same basic ancient populations. Many of the distinctions that get made just smack to me of unattractive "isms" of one sort or another. I'll leave it at that.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    100 Experience Points31 days registered
    Sigfrido's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-09-15
    Posts
    53


    Country: Italy



    How so? Bronze and Iron Age Armenians had zero SWA, while modern Armenians are actually Northern Iraqis with about 5% Indo Europeans admixture from proto Armenians. If S Euros have additional SWA compared to Oetzi, it comes from Barcin like farmers.

    Yamnaya got its middle eastern ancestry from a Georgian like people who also have zero SWA.

  14. #14
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    17,542
    Points
    380,217
    Level
    100
    Points: 380,217, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    How so? Bronze and Iron Age Armenians had zero SWA, while modern Armenians are actually Northern Iraqis with about 5% Indo Europeans admixture from proto Armenians. If S Euros have additional SWA compared to Oetzi, it comes from Barcin like farmers.

    Yamnaya got its middle eastern ancestry from a Georgian like people who also have zero SWA.
    Are you addressing me?

    I'm not quite sure I understand you, but if you mean that it's very strange that Barcin could have 0 SWAsian, and Stuttgart over 10% and Oetzi over 7%, I agree. The Barcin sample isn't very good, so maybe we can't capture the finer points. I also hope it's included in the new Lazaridis paper so we can see what they make of it.

    The argument that I believe Fire-Haired is repeating is that somehow all the SW Asian in Neolithic Italians got wiped out and was then replaced by migrations in the Bronze Age and Iron Age and perhaps in the Roman era. As I think you're implying, Bronze Age migrations would imply "Yamnaya", yes? They presumably wouldn't have any. Unless perhaps they're talking about Bronze Age migrations by way of Crete, which might have picked up some? By Iron Age, Fire-Haired's sources would seem to perhaps mean the Etruscans. Even if we assume that they or some part of their ancestry came from the northern Aegean/Anatolia, I'm not sure they would have had any at that time. Then there's the Roman era.

    My general point was that I am increasingly skeptical about any conclusions drawn totally from modern dna. Only ancient dna will tell us whether the SW Asian brought to Italy in the Neolithic is totally absent in subsequent eras only to reappear specifically, perhaps, in the Roman era.

  15. #15
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    17,542
    Points
    380,217
    Level
    100
    Points: 380,217, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    It occurred to me to check the SW Asian for some European groups:

    Belorussians: 1.9

    Bulgarians: 6.4 (more than the North Italians, but slightly less than Tuscans)

    Finns: 2.6

    Georgians: 0

    Greeks: 10.1

    Hungarians 3.0

    Lezghins: .6

    Turks: 10.3

    This would seem to indicate that the SW Asian did not come with Yamnaya. So, that 3% in Hungarians and 2.6% in Finns is probably a hold over from the EEF? Therefore, I suppose one could infer that at least half if not more of the SW Asian in northern Italians, as just one example, might be a remnant from the Neolithic, but as I said I think the only reliable answers will come from ancient dna.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    100 Experience Points31 days registered
    Sigfrido's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-09-15
    Posts
    53


    Country: Italy



    I am not sure I've understood your post... Anyway I was addressing Fire Haired and his argument that Italians have additional post neolitich SWA ancestry from Anatolia.

  17. #17
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    17,542
    Points
    380,217
    Level
    100
    Points: 380,217, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    I am not sure I've understood your post... Anyway I was addressing Fire Haired and his argument that Italians have additional post neolitich SWA ancestry from Anatolia.
    That's fine. From now on if you don't want other people to respond to your posts perhaps you should specifically address the person to whom you're responding.

    As for my post, no problem. I think there are others who will understand it.

  18. #18
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    How so? Bronze and Iron Age Armenians had zero SWA, while modern Armenians are actually Northern Iraqis with about 5% Indo Europeans admixture from proto Armenians. If S Euros have additional SWA compared to Oetzi, it comes from Barcin like farmers.

    Yamnaya got its middle eastern ancestry from a Georgian like people who also have zero SWA.
    I'm not saying SW Asian-type blood in Italians is from Yamnaya. I'm saying it from unknown Bronze and Iron age people(s) from the Near East(Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, etc.). ADMIXTURE isn't law and the components should be taken as trends not percentages of ancestry from real populations(SW Asian components don't represent a real group of people). So, if Neolithic farmers score in SW Asian that doesn't take away other lines of evidence there's SW Asian ancestry in Italy.

    Anyways, this is an idea I'm flirting with and waiting for more data. I'm not 100% for any theory. I don't know anything about history which might dis agree with SW Asians moving to Italy and Balkans in Bronze and Iron ages. The pieces of evidence I have are from methods that can't be taken too literally, like ADMIXTURE and PCA. The most legitimate evidence is Y DNA. But for Sicilians there's no debate. We know they have Near Eastern ancestors who were not EEF. It makes sense from what I've heard of Sicilian history(not saying I know a lot).

    If SW Asians moved in large numbers to Italy in 1500-800 BC we'd have no idea because there were no written records. No one had a world map back then and SW Asians would just be seen as another ethnic group. No one would write down later that "SW Asians" came to "Italy" they'd say "Bla Bla people from the sea" mixed with "Italic tribes". Besides we don't have many written records preserved and oral tradition of ethnic groups mixing in the past wasn't wroth writing about.

  19. #19
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,516
    Points
    29,412
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,412, Level: 52
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 338
    Overall activity: 34.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Near Eastern ancestry that is not EEF raises EEF scores. Ashkenazi Jews are the best example of this. There's SW Asian and Steppe-derived Near Eastern ancestry in Europe.
    There seems to be three sources of farmer/herder (Western farmers aka EEF, Eastern farmers aka Teal and Southern farmers) DNA which get eaten up as EEF by some amateur calculators true, But not in Lazaridis paper which in fact does seem to differ roughly between EEF, Teal like and South farmers.

    SW Asian is not necessary South farmer or Late Neolithic. Since all farmer groups share good majority of their ancestry it is very likely that there is overlap in their overall DNA. Means South farmers might have been around 70% SW Asian but EEF probably had some (<10%) SW Asian too. Teal on the other hand seems to lacked SW Asian almost completely.

  20. #20
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,516
    Points
    29,412
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,412, Level: 52
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 338
    Overall activity: 34.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    How so? Bronze and Iron Age Armenians had zero SWA, while modern Armenians are actually Northern Iraqis with about 5% Indo Europeans admixture from proto Armenians. If S Euros have additional SWA compared to Oetzi, it comes from Barcin like farmers.

    Yamnaya got its middle eastern ancestry from a Georgian like people who also have zero SWA.
    1.Some correction here. Bronze Age Armenian samples had zero SWA, by Iron Age the SWA was slowly appearing and rising from 2 to 6%. A Semite origin is obvious in that case because this is the time period when Assyrians and related tribes were penetrating into Mesopotamia and Urartu.

    2. Modern Armenians are not like "North Iraqis (if by North Iraqi you mean Kurds) + 5% Indo European" in fact it seems the opposite. Armenians seem to be a some percentages more EEF shifted(with minor more South farmer admixture) than North Iraqis what can be explained with an origin slightly further West and with contacts to Semite populations of the Levant type (probably catched up in Cilicia). North Iraqis (I think you mean Kurds) have more of the Gedrosian and North European elements which drifts them rather to Indo Europeans.

    But all this is very complicated between the Neolithic and middle ages there were dozens of back and forth migrations totaly changing the genetic landscape.

    Bronze and Iron Age Armenians were like halfway Teal and halfway EEF, they can be "best" described like a mix of North Caucasians and Italians (Tuscans) with Tajik/Yaghnobi(minus the East Eurasian) admixture.
    Last edited by Alan; 06-10-15 at 20:29.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    100 Experience Points31 days registered
    Sigfrido's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-09-15
    Posts
    53


    Country: Italy



    By North Iraqis I meant Assyrians, Iraqi Jews... Kurds are more Iranic-Caucasian with all that Gedrosia and also some North Euro linked to ANE.

  22. #22
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,516
    Points
    29,412
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,412, Level: 52
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 338
    Overall activity: 34.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfrido View Post
    By North Iraqis I meant Assyrians, Iraqi Jews... Kurds are more Iranic-Caucasian with all that Gedrosia and also some North Euro linked to ANE.
    Well than by reffering only to Assyrians and Iraqi Jews as "North Iraqis" you are making a huge mistake here. If anything I would have thought it would be clear by now that North Iraq was in ancient times more akine to Kurds. North Iraq which was basically Urartu/Subaru/Iranic by that time was like Bronze and Iron Age Armenian samples which as I have explained above were more like a cross between North Caucasians, Tuscans and Tajiks/Yaghnobis(minus the East Eurasian), And to this BaArmenians the Kurds are among the Top 5 closest groups based on fst distance tables and oracle. This mixture comes closer to Kurds, with Kurds being slightly more southern ( 5-10% less North Euro replaced by +5-10 more SWA than Bronze Age samples) shifted.

    Assyrians and Iraqi Jews actually represent populations who are a mix of Southern and Eastern (teal) farmers and represent not ancient North Iraqis but a Iron Age mixture between ancient South Levantine Semites and Sumerian/IndoEuropean/Caucasic groups. Akkadians for example are very well documented as conquerers but not natives of Mesopotamia in general. From this merging of Akkadians and Sumerians the Assyrians and Babylonians were born. And than Assyrians conquered North Mesopotamia until they were driven out by the Medes in alliance with Scythians/Cimmerians and the Babylonians.
    Last edited by Alan; 06-10-15 at 20:28.

  23. #23
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,516
    Points
    29,412
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,412, Level: 52
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 338
    Overall activity: 34.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Another teasar from authors with 34 (6300 BC)Neolithic Western Anatolian genomes: Close genetic relationship of Neolithic Anatolians to early European farmers:
    I don't get why some people still insist on calling these farmers "West Anatolian farmers" if even the paper calls them simply Anatolian farmers.

    And if my words are not trusted here the words of David
    Capra,

    As I've said before, Central Anatolian Neolithic farmers have been tested and they're no different from Western Anatolian Neolithic farmers.
    There is no genetic difference between West and Central Anatolian farmers. North Mesopotamian (Southeast Anatolia) farmers not been tested yet. But the Early Neolthic samples of this region should be alike to EEF before they mix with ANE groups in mid-late Neolithic.

  24. #24
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    17,542
    Points
    380,217
    Level
    100
    Points: 380,217, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    I don't think Fire-Haired has any agenda. People may just be writing that because of the wording of the abstract.

    Obviously, some people have had some sort of access to the work of other groups indicating that this "homogeneous" farming population also inhabited central Anatolia. Or perhaps the Lazaridis paper does address it tangentially.

    If I had to bet, I would say that the population down near the "launch point" for EEF proposed by Paschou et al near the border of southeastern Anatolia/north-central Levant is also similar.

    That's what's indicated by all the archaeology papers I've posted here about the early Neolithic in the Near East. There were exchanges of seeds, domesticated animals and technology going back to at least 11,000 BC for all areas of what used to be called the Fertile Crescent. Would it be parsimonious to propose that after thousands of years living in the same area, with basically the same culture, these people did not admix? I don't think so.

    If there were slightly divergent populations I think they would have been in the far south and northeast.

  25. #25
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,516
    Points
    29,412
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,412, Level: 52
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 338
    Overall activity: 34.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't think Fire-Haired has any agenda. People may just be writing that because of the wording of the abstract.
    I didn't meant to accuse him of an agenda in this case. I simply wanted to clarify a few things, since I still often see some people talking about "West Anatolian farmers" in this sence as if they got their WHG from Balkans/Greece.

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •