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Thread: Part 2: 8,000 years of Natural Selection in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't think we yet know who "invented" farming, and whether the various hunter-gatherers had already mixed by that time. A related question is how far south did these I and C lineages penetrate?

    I suppose it also depends on how you define "farming". I don't think it's just reaping and then storing wild grain. As to whether replanting wild seeds to have the plants closer to hand constitutes farming is one of those questions that archaeologists obsess over. :)

    I can see attaching the three I and C y lineages to WHG like populations, but what about H?
    IMO H, which is very old (TMRCA 45000 years) is paleolithic India where microliths were invented.
    H2 (I guess the H is also H2) must have come west and survived LGM in either the southern Levant or on the bottom of the Persian Gulf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't think we yet know who "invented" farming, and whether the various hunter-gatherers had already mixed by that time. A related question is how far south did these I and C lineages penetrate?

    I suppose it also depends on how you define "farming". I don't think it's just reaping and then storing wild grain. As to whether replanting wild seeds to have the plants closer to hand constitutes farming is one of those questions that archaeologists obsess over. :)

    I can see attaching the three I and C y lineages to WHG like populations, but what about H?
    there seem to have been 2 different incipient farming cultures :

    the Natufians, based on cereals

    SE Anatolia, based on nuts, pulses and domesticates - 12000 yo Hallan Cemi didn't have cereals
    http://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153-..._num_24_1_4667
    IMO it's these people that build Göbekli Tepe temple
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

    we need 12000 yo DNA to check

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Look, who actually defended the ydna J is not EEF but a EEF+Teal merging idea based on the fact that it is close cousin of I? ME

    BUT the point is that J is Obviously connected to farming /Herding cultures why is it so hard to understand. All other J samples are in Teal and EEF context. But than we have one Keralian J who has no autosomal sign of anything farmer like. That brings us back to our (Angela and me) initial theory, that this and as well some of the R1b in Samara H&G could be founder effect and through mixing with local WHG groups the Teal could have been so deluded until it autosomally disappeared.

    So if there is J without any sign of farming genes in Karelian, there is R1b in Neolithic Iberian without any sign of EHG admixture. Why shouldn't it be possible that the autosomal DNA got deluted in both groups?
    What you say is possible. However how do you know Teal people gave J to Mesolithic Karelia if Teal ancestry is so diluted it's impossible to detract? You're assuming it is teal with no evidence. My opinion is that R1b1 and J are very old so Neolithic Anatolians and Mesolithic Russians belonged to both lineages but neither appear to be partly descended from each other. So, J in Karelia isn't prove they had Near Eastern ancestry and isn't evidence R1b1 has a Near Eastern origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    What you say is possible. However how do you know Teal people gave J to Mesolithic Karelia if Teal ancestry is so diluted it's impossible to detract? You're assuming it is teal with no evidence. My opinion is that R1b1 and J are very old so Neolithic Anatolians and Mesolithic Russians belonged to both lineages but neither appear to be partly descended from each other. So, J in Karelia isn't prove they had Near Eastern ancestry and isn't evidence R1b1 has a Near Eastern origin.
    Oh really? And where was that hg. J from? It didn't came out of the blue and has to come from somewhere. And that somewhere is West Asia, where also R1a and R1b are from.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't think we yet know who "invented" farming, and whether the various hunter-gatherers had already mixed by that time. A related question is how far south did these I and C lineages penetrate?

    I suppose it also depends on how you define "farming". I don't think it's just reaping and then storing wild grain. As to whether replanting wild seeds to have the plants closer to hand constitutes farming is one of those questions that archaeologists obsess over. :)

    I can see attaching the three I and C y lineages to WHG like populations, but what about H?
    Right, we still don't know haplogroups of first farmers (Natufians) or surrounding them HGs. What took me be surprise is the plethora of haplogroups. If it comes to HG haplogroups we had quite uniformity in Europe, SHG were I2a, Samara all R1b, farther north R1a, only in the south we could see some mixing of C and I. Either farmers started with already highly mixed base or picked variety from bordering HGs, the fact is that by end of Mesolithic the Near East was already highly diverse in Y chromosomes.
    Or maybe I'm ahead of myself once again, because the variety of haplogroups could be just ENF doing. Near East Neolithic was in full swing for at least 2 thousand years , as the PPN, Pre Potery Neolithic, since 8,000 BC, 2ky before they came to West Anatolia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic

    During PPN they had spread from Egypt to Mesopotamia to South Anatolia. 2,000 years is a long time to interact with all the HGs around introducing their Y DNA throughout farmer community. H could have been from Mesopotamia, J2 from Assyria, G2a Natufians. I and C1 native to Anatolia.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Right, we still don't know haplogroups of first farmers (Natufians) or surrounding them HGs. What took me be surprise is the plethora of haplogroups. If it comes to HG haplogroups we had quite uniformity in Europe, SHG were I2a, Samara all R1b, farther north R1a, only in the south we could see some mixing of C and I. Either farmers started with already highly mixed base or picked variety from bordering HGs, the fact is that by end of Mesolithic the Near East was already highly diverse in Y chromosomes.
    Or maybe I'm ahead of myself once again, because the variety of haplogroups could be just ENF doing. Near East Neolithic was in full swing for at least 2 thousand years , as the PPN, Pre Potery Neolithic, since 8,000 BC, 2ky before they came to West Anatolia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic

    During PPN they had spread from Egypt to Mesopotamia to South Anatolia. 2,000 years is a long time to interact with all the HGs around introducing their Y DNA throughout farmer community. H could have been from Mesopotamia, J2 from Assyria, G2a Natufians. I and C1 native to Anatolia.
    I think the PPN went a bit further north into Anatolia than this graphic shows, and this includes southeast Anatolia. Also, as Bicicleur pointed out, there were different kinds of "farming", cereals-Natufians (but some scholars say also or perhaps even earlier in the foothills further inland with a perhaps different population ), and pulses, nuts etc. slightly north, but generally I agree.

    It's quite different, the mix of yDna, compared to Mesolithic Europe. The archaeology supports it, I think. These people were fortunate. Their environment was rich with plants, animals, had a good, moderate climate, and adequate water during most periods. The population grew pretty rapidly even before they actually domesticated the animals and plants.

    These larger populations came into contact with each other, and they wound up exchanging seeds, animals, technology, etc., for a few thousand years before a bunch of them set off for Europe. I think the genetics got really mixed as well, although perhaps Egypt was a bit apart. I think the farmers were pretty mixed by the time they got there. The mixing population that went into East Africans was still closest to "Sardinians" and Stuttgart, after all.

    Large populations and contact with other cultures bring their challenges but they certainly have their advantages as well; more chance for beneficial mutations to arise and spread, and more chance for advances in technology to do the same thing. Hybrid vigour and all that. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Oh really? And where was that hg. J from? It didn't came out of the blue and has to come from somewhere. And that somewhere is West Asia, where also R1a and R1b are from.
    MA1 had R* and lived in Siberia 24,000 years ago. EHG is MA1's closest relative and had lots of R1a1 and R1b1. Native Americans are their next closest and Amerindians have Y DNA Q1a as did some EHG. There's a clear correlation. R1a1 and R1b1 could be from West Asia. Anything is possible. R1a1 and R1b1 may be from North Asia and came to Russia and mixed with WHG types(who had hg J and I?) there. What matters is where R1b-L23 and R1a-M417 are from because 90%+ of R1a and R1b today belongs to those lineages.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    MA1 had R* and lived in Siberia 24,000 years ago. EHG is MA1's closest relative and had lots of R1a1 and R1b1. Native Americans are their next closest and Amerindians have Y DNA Q1a as did some EHG. There's a clear correlation. R1a1 and R1b1 could be from West Asia. Anything is possible. R1a1 and R1b1 may be from North Asia and came to Russia and mixed with WHG types(who had hg J and I?) there. What matters is where R1b-L23 and R1a-M417 are from because 90%+ of R1a and R1b today belongs to those lineages.
    my guess - Q survived the LGM in Siberia, but not R who survived after moving further south near the Hindu Kush and after that R1 tribes moved west toward NW Iran, only after the youngest dryas some R1 tribes crossed the Caucasus to enter the steppe
    this J was an individual they picked up south of the Caucasus, just like R1b-V88 learned about cattle herding from J

    there is a 2014 study by Underhill claiming origin of R1a in NW Iran
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ll-et-al-(2014

    but your guesses are as good as mine

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Right, we still don't know haplogroups of first farmers (Natufians) or surrounding them HGs. What took me be surprise is the plethora of haplogroups. If it comes to HG haplogroups we had quite uniformity in Europe, SHG were I2a, Samara all R1b, farther north R1a, only in the south we could see some mixing of C and I. Either farmers started with already highly mixed base or picked variety from bordering HGs, the fact is that by end of Mesolithic the Near East was already highly diverse in Y chromosomes.
    Or maybe I'm ahead of myself once again, because the variety of haplogroups could be just ENF doing. Near East Neolithic was in full swing for at least 2 thousand years , as the PPN, Pre Potery Neolithic, since 8,000 BC, 2ky before they came to West Anatolia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic

    During PPN they had spread from Egypt to Mesopotamia to South Anatolia. 2,000 years is a long time to interact with all the HGs around introducing their Y DNA throughout farmer community. H could have been from Mesopotamia, J2 from Assyria, G2a Natufians. I and C1 native to Anatolia.
    no farmers entered Egypt or Africa before the 8.2 ka climate event

    but the variety of haplogroups in SW Asia was much bigger than what showed up in this study dealing with NW Anatolia
    the haplogroups that entered Africa 8.2 ka were totaly different of those that entered Europe (R1b-V88 and T)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    MA1 had R* and lived in Siberia 24,000 years ago. EHG is MA1's closest relative and had lots of R1a1 and R1b1. Native Americans are their next closest and Amerindians have Y DNA Q1a as did some EHG. There's a clear correlation. R1a1 and R1b1 could be from West Asia. Anything is possible. R1a1 and R1b1 may be from North Asia and came to Russia and mixed with WHG types(who had hg J and I?) there. What matters is where R1b-L23 and R1a-M417 are from because 90%+ of R1a and R1b today belongs to those lineages.
    You are talking about R*. EHG could be close to MA1 because MA1 was found in that area/region. SO it would be very obvious that it would be close to that area.

    Also, later on R* evolved into R1* and R2*. South Central Asia is the home where R2* is very frequent. This means that R* migrated further south into SouthCentral Asia. This is a fact. From there on it migrated into West Asia through the Iranian Plateau. In West Asia R1* evolved into R1b and R1a. And together with J, R1a migrated into the north. You don't have to be a genius to understand this.

    Hg. J is native to West Asia. There is J in Northern Europe. You can't deny that J came originally from West Asia and migrated into Europe. So for me this means that R1a* also was native to West Asia and migrted into Europe.


    R1b-L23 was full Gedrosia component. R1b-L23 was native to the Iranian Plateau and migrated into the Steppes. The same can be said with R1a-M417...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    my guess - Q survived the LGM in Siberia, but not R who survived after moving further south near the Hindu Kush and after that R1 tribes moved west toward NW Iran, only after the youngest dryas some R1 tribes crossed the Caucasus to enter the steppe
    this J was an individual they picked up south of the Caucasus, just like R1b-V88 learned about cattle herding from J

    there is a 2014 study by Underhill claiming origin of R1a in NW Iran
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ll-et-al-(2014

    but your guesses are as good as mine
    Exactly, this is how it is. Think only about the hg. R2*. It's more southern than northern...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Exactly, this is how it is. Think only about the hg. R2*. It's more southern than northern...
    yes, R2 TMRCA estimated is 10.200 years, probably somewhere in northern Pakistan, 1000 years before arrival of agriculture in Mehrgarh

    but IMO PIE was somewhere on the steppe, 5th mill BC R1b1a1a-M478* (TMRCA 7300 years), R1b1a2-M269 (TMRCA 6400 years) and R1a1a-M417 (TMRCA 5500 years)*

    * PS see Ray Banks Tree https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...fKjNDG21o/edit

    R1b1a1 P297/PF6398 (18656508 G->C)
    • • • •R1b1a1a M73 (21888874..21888874 ins->del 2 base pairs)
    • • • • R1b1a1a1 M478 (23444054 T->C)
    • • • •R1b1a1b M269 (22739367 T->C)


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting new paper, although from what I have read so far it confirms everything we already suspected. As I had predicted many years ago, Sintashta evolved from Corded-Ware-related R1a population from north-west Russia, but obviously from a separate branch of R1a than the one that advanced to Poland, Germany and Scandinavia, since Central and South Asians descended from Sintashta are all R1a-Z93. That could easily be inferred from modern data.

    It's nice to have some samples from the Khvalynsk culture confirming that both R1a1 and R1b1 were already in the Volga region by 5000 BCE. I am not surprised to find both haplogroups there since it is a buffer region between the southern R1b cultures (Yamna, Maykop) and the northern R1a cultures (Corded Ware, Abashevo, Sintashta).

    Likewise, I had placed the Poltavka culture as a mixture of R1a and R1b on my migrations maps, and indeed it was so. The only minor surprise was the presence of Q1a in Khvalynsk, but it isn't far from Siberia and Central Asia, so a bit of admixture with neighbours is to be expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The mixture of EHG and an Armenian like group began about 5200 BC, "with some individuals resembling EHG and some resembling Yamnaya". The proportion was about 74%/26%.
    So Armenian-like R1b would have moved to the Pontic Steppe around 5200 BCE ? I needed confirmation on that point, but it is actually the timing I had suggested in my history of R1b. Here is what I wrote in 2009:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    It is not yet entirely clear when R1b crossed over from eastern Anatolia to the Pontic-Caspian steppe. This might have happened with the appearance of the Dnieper-Donets culture (c. 5100-4300 BCE). This was the first truly Neolithic society in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. Domesticated animals (cattle, sheep and goats) were herded throughout the steppes and funeral rituals were elaborate. Sheep wool would play an important role in Indo-European society, notably in the Celtic and Germanic (R1b branches of the Indo-Europeans) clothing traditions up to this day.
    ...
    The first clearly Proto-Indo-European culture was Sredny Stog (4600-3900 BCE), when small kurgan burials begin to appear, with the distinctive posturing of the dead on the back with knees raised and oriented toward the northeast, which would be found in later steppe cultures as well. There is evidence of population blending from the variety of skull shapes. Towards the end of the 5th millennium, an elite starts to develop with cattle, horses and copper used as status symbols.
    My migration map showed R1b crossing the Caucasus to the Pontic Steppe some time between 6000 and 5000 BCE, and my first migration map of R1b (the Flash version, which I can't paste on the forum) indicated 7000 ybp for that trans-Caucasian migration. So it is reassuring that was intuition was right on the timing as well as the geography.






    What this paper and other recent papers on ancient Y-DNA have shown is that natural selection has been very active for Y-chromosomes in the last 8,000 years.

    For example, what happened to the Anatolian and Balkanic Neolithic H2 ? If we look at region with very high G2a frequencies and EEF ancestry today like Sardinia, the Apennines or Georgia, there isn't any H2 anywhere. One possible explanation is that H2 Y-chromosomes were less competitive and produced less offspring, which gradually weeded it out from the population. But this seems to have happened for quite a few paternal lineages that were once common during the Mesolithic and throughout the Neolithic and even the Early Bronze Age, such as C1a2, F, I*, I2*, J*, K*, P1*, or R1*. The asterisk might as well serve as a reminder that these lineages didn't leave descendants, and therefore no further subclade is available today. Only their brothers or cousins with new mutations perpetuated those haplogroups and what became G2a3b1a, I1a, I2a1a, I2a2a, R1b1a2a1, R1a1a1a, and so on. C1a2, H2 and P1 never got the right mutations and are virtually extinct today.

    In light of this, it would make a lot of sense if the tremendous success of R1a-M417 and R1b-L11 was not purely the result of superior Indo-European technology, warfare, conquest and political domination, but also of advantageous genetic mutations increasing male fertility on the one hand, but also typically male behavioral traits such as dominance, as I suggested in this thread.
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    I posted a thread: Traits that were Selected for in the last 8,000 years. Focused on the Natural Selection aspect of this paper. Something important to understand IMO is most traits are polygentic. Angela has pointed this out many times. So, each one of the SNPs that showed strong signs of selection are probably only one small part of what causes someone to have a certain trait.

    It is interesting that a mutation for defensive reaction to glutine first appears in Neolithic farmers, which probably means it is a farmer-mutation because only farmers eat glutine. Selection for Lactose Tolerance, Pale skin, and reduced fat are the most significant. For most mutations they significantly rose in frequency in the last 4,000 years. A lot can happen in 4,000 years even if there's mostly genetic-continuation in some regions.

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    @Maciamo,

    The circa 2500 BC R1a-Z94 guy from Poltavka culture was a genetic outlier. He was genetically just like Sintashta, Corded Ware, etc. He was either an immigrant or from an early wave R1a-Z93 people from the West into the Steppe. The Poltavka culture itself probably had 0 or little R1a-Z93 or anykind of R1a, and was almost exclusively R1b-Z2103.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @Maciamo,

    The circa 2500 BC R1a-Z94 guy from Poltavka culture was a genetic outlier. He was genetically just like Sintashta, Corded Ware, etc. He was either an immigrant or from an early wave R1a-Z93 people from the West into the Steppe. The Poltavka culture itself probably had 0 or little R1a-Z93 or anykind of R1a, and was almost exclusively R1b-Z2103.
    What??? There is no R1a-Z93 in the ' West '. If Z93 was from the west, some native folks there would be from Z93. But most folks in Eastern Europe are evolved from Z282.

    It's crazy to believe that R1a-Z93 is from the Eastern Europe. This is 100% not true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, R2 TMRCA estimated is 10.200 years, probably somewhere in northern Pakistan, 1000 years before arrival of agriculture in Mehrgarh

    but IMO PIE was somewhere on the steppe, 5th mill BC R1b1a1a-M478* (TMRCA 7300 years), R1b1a2-M269 (TMRCA 6400 years) and R1a1a-M417 (TMRCA 5500 years)*

    * PS see Ray Banks Tree https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...fKjNDG21o/edit

    R1b1a1 P297/PF6398 (18656508 G->C)
    • • • •R1b1a1a M73 (21888874..21888874 ins->del 2 base pairs)
    • • • • R1b1a1a1 M478 (23444054 T->C)
    • • • •R1b1a1b M269 (22739367 T->C)

    PIE that entered Europe was from the Steppes. First PIE came from Maykop into Yamnaya and from Yamnaya into Europe.

    But Indo-European languages in West Asia were native to West Asia. PIE in West Asia came from the Leyla Tepe (Iranian Plateau).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    What you say is possible. However how do you know Teal people gave J to Mesolithic Karelia if Teal ancestry is so diluted it's impossible to detract? You're assuming it is teal with no evidence. My opinion is that R1b1 and J are very old so Neolithic Anatolians and Mesolithic Russians belonged to both lineages but neither appear to be partly descended from each other. So, J in Karelia isn't prove they had Near Eastern ancestry and isn't evidence R1b1 has a Near Eastern origin.
    Fire I think you doN't see kinda the irony. The theory you propose now. Wasn't it my theory since the beginning of all this discussion? Didn't I said from the beginning that yDNA J, since it is the brother clade of I and close relative of K, would be rather H&G related than. Wasn't this my argument since whole lot of month when people were still keeping to call simply an EEF lineage?

    I said the same about R1 lineages if you remember what I wrote on Eurogenes a whole lot of times, that R1 lineages are far too old and probably were widespred all around Eurasia by Neolithic times already. But the point is when I said this no one agreed with me.

    Suddenly when a J sample turns out in Keralian H&G people are fine with it, simply out of the fact that they don't want to accept the possibility of farmer DNA reaching EHG so early and destroying their "pure blooded EHG Indo Europeans" theory.

    So I repeat again I think if J was already among EHG groups, than this could indicate that the EHG groups ultimately arrived from Central Asia to begin with. And their they might had already came into contact with teal like groups. Other possibility is, that J Haplogroup is so old, just like R1 lineages that it was already widespred among farmers and H&G groups with completely different autosomal DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So Armenian-like R1b would have moved to the Pontic Steppe around 5200 BCE ? I needed confirmation on that point, but it is actually the timing I had suggested in my history of R1b. Here is what I wrote in 2009:


    My migration map showed R1b crossing the Caucasus to the Pontic Steppe some time between 6000 and 5000 BCE, and my first migration map of R1b (the Flash version, which I can't paste on the forum) indicated 7000 ybp for that trans-Caucasian migration. So it is reassuring that was intuition was right on the timing as well as the geography.


    BINGO & JACKPOT !!! But it is not 'Armenian-like' R1b but Leyla-Tepe (Gedrosia/Iranid)-like

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Fire I think you doN't see kinda the irony. The theory you propose now. Wasn't it my theory since the beginning of all this discussion? Didn't I said from the beginning that yDNA J, since it is the brother clade of I and close relative of K, would be rather H&G related than. Wasn't this my argument since whole lot of month when people were still keeping to call simply an EEF lineage?

    I said the same about R1 lineages if you remember what I wrote on Eurogenes a whole lot of times, that R1 lineages are far too old and probably were widespred all around Eurasia by Neolithic times already. But the point is when I said this no one agreed with me.

    Suddenly when a J sample turns out in Keralian H&G people are fine with it, simply out of the fact that they don't want to accept the possibility of farmer DNA reaching EHG so early and destroying their "pure blooded EHG Indo Europeans" theory.

    So I repeat again I think if J was already among EHG groups, than this could indicate that the EHG groups ultimately arrived from Central Asia to begin with. And their they might had already came into contact with teal like groups. Other possibility is, that J Haplogroup is so old, just like R1 lineages that it was already widespred among farmers and H&G groups with completely different autosomal DNA.
    Few posters suggested R1 is an exclusively EHG lineage. I didn't. I've though what you did all this time. And we need the EHG genome with J to find out if it is negative for J2 and J1. J obviously was originally a WHG/UHG lineage with no Basal Eurasian, so a HG immigration from West Asia to Karelia is possible. The same could be true for R1b1 and R1a1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    What??? There is no R1a-Z93 in the ' West '. If Z93 was from the west, some native folks there would be from Z93. But most folks in Eastern Europe are evolved from Z282.

    It's crazy to believe that R1a-Z93 is from the Eastern Europe. This is 100% not true.
    Actually non-Balto Slavic East Europeans have more Z93 than Z282. The Z93 folk left East Europe and were overrun by N1c. The 2500 BC R1a-Z93 guy had significant "EEF" ancestry which did not exist in the Steppe, it only existed further West in Europe.

    Autosomally he resembled Corded Ware the people who gave Z282 to Europe. It should be no surprise Z93 and Z282 come from the same people. The debate it over now because we have prove in ancient DNA, R1a-Z93 originated somewhere around modern day Ukraine.

    R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 obviously came from people who had kings who had a million wives while many other men had few or no wives as a result. Overtime everyone became R1a-Z93 in one tribe and R1a-Z282 in another tribe. The original R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 men were probably born not much more than 1,000 years before you had tribes who were 100% R1a-Z93 or R1a-Z282.

    This method of rich men having tons of wives would have continued as they became admixed with other people. Early R1a-Z93 Indo Iranian from Central Asia mixed heavily with North Asians, Europeans, and SC Asians. In SC Asia they kept the same system of rich men from certain families having tons of wives, which kept R1a-Z93 popular. There's is significant autosomal impact in SC Asia but in other areas there isn't significant autosomal impact and R1a-Z93 is still popular.

    You see this all over the world. All Native Americans belong to the same paternal lineage. A similar Bronze age thing happened in lots of places, I mean look at J1 in Arabia, E1b-M81 in NW Africa, R1b-L151 in West Europe.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Actually non-Balto Slavic East Europeans have more Z93 than Z282. The Z93 folk left East Europe and were overrun by N1c. The 2500 BC R1a-Z93 guy had significant "EEF" ancestry which did not exist in the Steppe, it only existed further West in Europe.

    Autosomally he resembled Corded Ware the people who gave Z282 to Europe. It should be no surprise Z93 and Z282 come from the same people. The debate it over now because we have prove in ancient DNA, R1a-Z93 originated somewhere around modern day Ukraine.

    R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 obviously came from people who had kings who had a million wives while many other men had few or no wives as a result. Overtime everyone became R1a-Z93 in one tribe and R1a-Z282 in another tribe. The original R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 men were probably born not much more than 1,000 years before you had tribes who were 100% R1a-Z93 or R1a-Z282.

    This method of rich men having tons of wives would have continued as they became admixed with other people. Early R1a-Z93 Indo Iranian from Central Asia mixed heavily with North Asians, Europeans, and SC Asians. In SC Asia they kept the same system of rich men from certain families having tons of wives, which kept R1a-Z93 popular. There's is significant autosomal impact in SC Asia but in other areas there isn't significant autosomal impact and R1a-Z93 is still popular.

    You see this all over the world. All Native Americans belong to the same paternal lineage. A similar Bronze age thing happened in lots of places, I mean look at J1 in Arabia, E1b-M81 in NW Africa, R1b-L151 in West Europe.
    NO, you're wrong BIG time. There's some Z93 in Europe, but not much maybe a few %, but thats from Iranic folks from the East, like Sarmatians.

    When you find ancient Z93 in West Asia it will be autosomally West Asian. Itsall bout the region where you find those skeletons.

    R1a-Z93 NEVER came from Ukraine, what the **** are you talking about?? There is not much of Z93 in Ukraine, only some from the Iranic folks.

    Z93 was born somewhere on the Iranian Plateau, because Z93 is very diverse on the Iranian Plateau and all the ancestors and the descendants of Z93 live on the Iranian Plateau.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @Maciamo,

    The circa 2500 BC R1a-Z94 guy from Poltavka culture was a genetic outlier. He was genetically just like Sintashta, Corded Ware, etc. He was either an immigrant or from an early wave R1a-Z93 people from the West into the Steppe. The Poltavka culture itself probably had 0 or little R1a-Z93 or anykind of R1a, and was almost exclusively R1b-Z2103.
    I wrote this in the R1b history and I stand by it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    When R1b crossed the Caucasus in the Late Neolithic, it split into two main groups. The western one (L51) would settle the eastern and northern of the Black Sea. The eastern one (Z2103 + M73) migrated to the Don-Volga region, where horses were domesticated circa 4600 BCE. R1b probably mixed with indigenous R1a people and founded the Repin culture (3700-3300 BCE) a bit before the Yamna culture came into existence in the western Pontic Steppe. R1b would then have migrated with horses along the Great Eurasian Steppe until the Altai mountains in East-Central Asia, where they established the Afanasevo culture (c. 3600-2400 BCE). Afanasevo people might be the precursors of the Tocharian branch of Indo-European languages alongside haplogroup R1a.

    The R1b people who stayed in the Volga-Ural region were probably the initiators of the Poltavka culture (2700-2100 BCE), then became integrated into the R1a-dominant Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE) linked to the Indo-Aryan conquest of Central and South Asia.
    The way I see it is that the Poltavka culture was originally R1b, but became progressively invaded by northern R1a-Z93 tribes until it became completely absorbed and gave way to the Sintashta-Petrovka culture. Archaeological cultures don't suddenly shift from one population to another. The replacement is gradual and often the result of external migrations. The same happened with the gradual increase of R1b lineages in Western Europe during the Bell Beaker period.

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    @ Fire Haired14


    I don't know where you get your crazy ideas from? Z93 from UKRAINE??? WTF!!!! There's 0.00 % evidence for that...


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786



    R1a is cery diverse in West Asia, from the ancestorsto the descendants of Z93. There is EVERYTHING of R1a in West Asia.

    Like R1b, also R1a is CONNECTED to GEDROSIA...








    http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/03/underhill-et-al-2014.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    my guess - Q survived the LGM in Siberia, but not R who survived after moving further south near the Hindu Kush and after that R1 tribes moved west toward NW Iran, only after the youngest dryas some R1 tribes crossed the Caucasus to enter the steppe
    this J was an individual they picked up south of the Caucasus, just like R1b-V88 learned about cattle herding from J

    there is a 2014 study by Underhill claiming origin of R1a in NW Iran
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ll-et-al-(2014

    but your guesses are as good as mine
    That's my guess as well. FWIW, :)

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