Part 2: 8,000 years of Natural Selection in Europe.

[holderlin]

Now that's thinkin' outside the box ;D

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but I think it's doubtful, and here's why.

Vinča were the original Balkan copper kings(they were making copper foil around 5000 BCE, for christ's sake), and they were at their peak right around the time Khvalynsk popped up, I think. At any rate, the two cultures existed at more or less the same time. So you gotta figure that they would have been a key source of that copper, in your scenario, if not the source.

We have Vinča genomes now, and, they're an almost exact 50/50 blend of very non-"teal" Anatolian style EEF and classic Loschbour type WHG. Their sphere of activity was pretty large, almost all of modern Serbia, plus bits of other former Yugoslav republics, and I think a good chunk of Romania. They must have been a big economic powerhouse in their day, so, with all that in mind, plus that Starčevo DNA which is almost 100% EEF, I think it's a safe bet for the time being that the neolithic Balkans wasn't a "teal" place. The caucuses are a natural enough highway between the steppe and the near east, I don't think that we need to have a specific candidate culture in mind for it to have been the most likely route for "teal" to have taken into the steppe.

Or I could be totally wrong.
Either way, it's a neat idea.

Maybe our reptilian overlords seeded the Samara area with "teal", just to mess with the ancient DNA hobbyists they knew would exist in the future. They do know everything, after all.
o_o

Reptoid admixture is inter-dimensional so teal t*rolling is possible.

I mean MA1 has a big chunk of teal and we've only thus far see ancient ANE on the steppe, so it would make sense if teal is more local to the steppe than we're thinking.

I know we have high teal modern populations with recent admixture which implies a nearly all or all teal ancestor, and these modern populations are in areas that fit with the Iranian plateau theory of teal origins, but it looks like this was probably happening before the emphatic collision that we see between the steppe and the caucuses at later mikhaylovka/Yamnaya dates.

I'm not too familiar with the geography of the Caucuses. I had thought of it more as a barrier than a corridor, which would push steppe around the East side of the Caspian if making seasonal Southern trips. Is there an obvious corridor through the Caucuses that doesn't require any movement through higher elevation passes? It's super rugged even along the Seas with a ton of drainage rivers to cross, especially along the Black Sea. It would be much easier to cross an arid patch with known water sources along the way.

 

[bicicleur 2]

does the Khvalynsk population have the teal?
if so, maybe it is brought by Q1a?

 

[epoch]

I don't want anything. The only thing I want is a free Kurdistan right NOW.

If you develop patience you will get that. Or maybe your children. But things are moving that way.

Now back to the Indo-Europeans.

I think that proto-Iranid folks, my direct ancestors, were fully Caucasoid and has NOTHING to do with EHG. It doesn't make any sense if they were party Mongoloid/EHG

EHG weren't mongoloid. They were part of a race that extended from La Brana to Mal'ta. They contributed to Indians, American Indians, possibly West-Asians, Siberians and Europeans. They caused other races to come into being. But as a race they seized to exist.

 

[holderlin]

does the Khvalynsk population have the teal?
if so, maybe it is brought by Q1a?

Yes they're all tealed up. In the tables they're called Samara_Eneolithic. The paper says 75%/25% EHG/teal, but that was an "estimate taken as a whole" for a population that was said to be "heterogeneous between EHG and Yamnaya": some look Yamnaya, some look EHG. The physical types in the graves are also a mix of Steppe/EHG and Southern Euro. Wait, OK I see the N=3 in the admixture plot. Only one sample actually has teal (puke green in these plots). Whoa. But they don't say which in the paper, or at least I can't find it. They just talk about this "estimate" of 25/75 wtf. Someone call these people. And what's this chromatic blue component? Not the lighter Anatolian Neolithic blue, but the more chromatic component on the left side of the plot. This looks to actually begin in the Samara_Eneolithic samples. (and of course teal = vomit green in these plots).

Q1a teal vector is possible but with some modern Iranian populations having so much I'd expect more Q1a in these populations as well. And I guess if they just told us which sample had the teal in Khvalynsk that might help.

Remember the teal in Yamnaya isn't just Caucaso-Gedrosian. It has a North Euro component (like in BA Armenian), which might not mean anything other than that ANE carried this component, or, it could again suggest an origin more local to the steppe. Is this what the chromatic blue is supposed to be?

 

[Angela]

I've speculated whether this "southern" component in the steppe could have come from the farmers to their west, maybe Cucuteni Tripolite spilling over onto the steppe, but everything indicates they had a lot of "ANE", and so far as we know there wasn't any "ANE" there.

I'm sure some samples from the Balkans are in the process of being analyzed, but who knows when they'll be published. (In fact, that's why I think the Mathieson et al paper hints that the population that moved east might have been from further east than Corded Ware. (i.e.a combination of Tripolye plus Yamnaya)

Speaking of Balkan samples, I'm assuming that estimate of 50/50 EEF/WHG for Vinca is pre-publication of the Iain Mathieson paper (and Lazaridis abstract), yes? So, using Stuttgart, how much WHG would be in that sample? Would it be about the same amount as in MN? 25-30% max?

 

[Angela]

Given that the samples in Neolithic Anatolia had both derived SLC24A5 and SLC42A5 (and we then see both show up in Neolithic Europe), I really don't understand this post on Dienekes' website in August.

Prehistoric farmers from northern Greece had lactose intolerance, brown eyes, dark skin
http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/08/prehistoric-farmers-from-northern.html

Unfortunately I don't understand Greek so I don't know if they explain their reasoning in the video at the link.

It doesn't really make sense, does it? Unless they just mean that this particular group had derived SLC24A5, but not SLC45A2? The Polish researchers said the same thing about the Bronze Age warrior they were testing.

 

[Fire Haired14]

It doesn't really make sense, does it? Unless they just mean that this particular group had derived SLC24A5, but not SLC45A2? The Polish researchers said the same thing about the Bronze Age warrior they were testing.

That's definitely the case, or at least a low frequency of SLC45A2. With the Polish one, no pigmentation SNPs were tested and they assumed they had Dark skin because lots had mtDNA H:grin:

Given that the samples in Neolithic Anatolia had both derived SLC24A5 and SLC42A5 (and we then see both show up in Neolithic Europe)

They had the same frequency of both as modern West Asians. The reason for obvious differnence in appearence between Middle Easterns and Europeans is clear to me now: Depigmentation mutations had been thrown around since the Upper Palaeolithic in Eurasia. It wasn't till around 3000 BC they came together and created a package of what we see today. In the Middle East nothing changed since Neolithic. For most part European-phenotype is depigmented version of Middle Eastern combined with WHG/EHG-genes(Skeletal form, some depigmentation). This is actually what some old-anthropologist suggested.

 

[LeBrok]

I'm not too familiar with the geography of the Caucuses. I had thought of it more as a barrier than a corridor, which would push steppe around the East side of the Caspian if making seasonal Southern trips. Is there an obvious corridor through the Caucuses that doesn't require any movement through higher elevation passes? It's super rugged even along the Seas with a ton of drainage rivers to cross, especially along the Black Sea. It would be much easier to cross an arid patch with known water sources along the way.

What about passing around through beaches of Black or Caspian Sea?

 

[Angela]

That's definitely the case, or at least a low frequency of SLC45A2. With the Polish one, no pigmentation SNPs were tested and they assumed they had Dark skin because lots had mtDNA H

They had the same frequency of both as modern West Asians. The reason for obvious differnence in appearence between Middle Easterns and Europeans is clear to me now: Depigmentation mutations had been thrown around since the Upper Palaeolithic in Eurasia. It wasn't till around 3000 BC they came together and created a package of what we see today. In the Middle East nothing changed since Neolithic. For most part European-phenotype is depigmented version of Middle Eastern combined with WHG/EHG-genes(Skeletal form, some depigmentation). This is actually what some old-anthropologist suggested.

Well, unless you can understand Greek, we don't KNOW that's the case, but it's a good bet. As for the Polish one, let's hope he's getting tested!

We've been saying forever that it was the combination of the major depigmentation snps that created modern European phenotypes. However, most of the speculation on this site was that even if derived SLC24A5 might have come with the farmers, the SHG and/or EHG must have contributed derived SLC45A2. That's obviously not precisely how it happened, since Anatolian farmers already had derived SLC45A2. Nor, clearly, are the actual steppe people responsible for the increase, since they had the same or less of the derived SLC45A2 snps than the Anatolian farmers. (Sintashta is not on point in my opinion because it's much later and hailed from areas that got more EEF and perhaps more EHG admixture too before they headed east.)

I think a lot of these de-pigmentation snps combined in Central Europe (and in the SHG/EHG) but I still think selection operated on it (as the paper seems to maintain), and that selection may turn out to have something to do with dairy consumption and Vitamin D levels, in my opinion. A full complement of depigmentation snps would not be very helpful in the Arabian desert. As it is they have to keep totally covered.

Social selection might also have come into play once it got started.

I don't think it's necessarily the case that the Near East didn't change in term of pigmentation snps. Palestinians are almost 10% SSA. It can be even higher in Arabia. I think that the diffusion of those genes probably had an impact on the pigmentation of some Near Easterners. That influx may be at least partly rather recent, dating to the Arab slave trade.

 

[Angela]

There are passes through the mountains. This is called the Cross Pass, I think.

However, it looks to me as if the easiest passage would be along the west coast of the Caspian Sea.

It seems a bit odd that south Caucasus farmers would cross the mountains but leave farming behind. It's not as if there weren't river valleys on the steppe where it could be practiced. On the other hand, Mallory has always emphasized that farming on the steppe was very unstable.

I found the following interesting. It's a university site but unfortunately the individual points are not sourced, so take it with a grain of salt, or a lot of salt, as you prefer. Anyway, the text (go down to Part II) explains that in certain areas of Turkmenistan the farmers depended more on animal husbandry, and that farming, except at certain oases, was the minor component. With changing climate, some of these people abandoned farming altogether and became herding nomads.
http://www.weavingartmuseum.org/ex3_prehist.htm

I suppose it's possible that people like this might have traveled due north, then through the area of modern Kazakhstan and then onto the steppe, but I don't know of any archaeological support for this. They would have to have arrived before 4500 BC given the autosomal make up we're seeing at that time.

 

[Kristiina]

According to Eurogenes, most EHG like modern people are Lithuanians, Estonians and Saami (http://eurogenes.blogspot.fi/2015_08_01_archive.html). So google for these people if you want to get a glimpse of what EHG may have looked like. Here is one possibility: http://mutityts.com/2013/11/04/the-real-estonian-man/

In order to get an idea what ANE people looked like we can look at the people who today share most drift with Ma1: Amerinds, West Greenland, East Greenland; Naukan; Ket; Lithuanians; Western Finns; Russians; Estonians; Mordovians; Chukchi; Finns; Khanty; Maris; Selkup; Koryak; Shors; Orcadian; Ukrainians; Tundra Nenets; CEU; Hungarians; Kalash
Alaskan inuit family: ps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inupiat_Family_from_Noatak,_Alaska,_1929,_Edward_S._Curtis_(restored).jpg
Alaskan Inuit woman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo#/media/File:Inuit_Woman_1907_Crisco_edit_2.jpg
Ancient native Greenlander: http://www.talisman.ro/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/greenlander.jpg
Ket man: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Ket_man_1914.jpg
Selkup man: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selkup_people#/media/File:A_Selkup_man_with_his_dog..jpg

As a comparison photos of Chinese men: https://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&....0....0...1ac.1.64.img..11.4.1175.xZg-UZzcMYw

In my opinion, high cheekbones are an ANE feature. They may also have had a "triangular face" as that kind of a face is seen in North Eurasia (e.g. inupiat man above) but not for example in China. ANE people may also have had small eyes as they lived in a cold climate. Of course, they also had dark hair.

 

[Yetos]

Given that the samples in Neolithic Anatolia had both derived SLC24A5 and SLC42A5 (and we then see both show up in Neolithic Europe), I really don't understand this post on Dienekes' website in August.

Prehistoric farmers from northern Greece had lactose intolerance, brown eyes, dark skin
http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/08/prehistoric-farmers-from-northern.html

Unfortunately I don't understand Greek so I don't know if they explain their reasoning in the video at the link.

It doesn't really make sense, does it? Unless they just mean that this particular group had derived SLC24A5, but not SLC45A2? The Polish researchers said the same thing about the Bronze Age warrior they were testing.

ok

I had wrote about that before

it is combined with

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/talk-by-christina-papageorgopoulou-on.html


now an effort to translate

<<A very important recent result is the regain of full genes map of 3 pre-historic farmers from N Greece, who lived 7500-5500 years from today.
the data are being analyzed and itr is expected to 'light' the ancestry of modern Europeans,
until today the data have given informations about lactose intolerance, eyes colours and skin colour,

it seems these people had problem with lactose, had brown eyes and one or 2 tones darker skin than today,>>

now the video
generally say the same
but enters on how the work is done, the time needed, and why needed,
interesting are

<< Blue eyes is a mutation that appeared 10 000 years from today but expand very fast due to atractiveness>>
<<the first farmers in Greece were lactose intolearnce, and Greece today has the biggest lactose intolerance in Europe which shows a continuity>>

now many have been said at blogs, news etc etc about that project,
officially is the 3 +1 of the above
pre-historic Greeks farmers at N Greece had
1. lactose intolerance
2. brown eyes
3. a tone or two darker skin
3+1 brown hair. (not mention in the exbition, but admited by most)



PS
unoficially many had been said,
I could write them down if you want,
but many are hoaxes,

but generally and from other works there was abutant mtDNA H,
something that most submit,

as I said before, no nucleotid -V13 has been mention yet,
as you can see in the comments before, no answer to that,
many write in their pages about a certain existance of I1

extraordinary is some say that a R1b has been found, and 1 X22, although there are not offcial pappers to that

here are the speech
http://www.livemedia.gr/video/33052

 

[Angela]

ok

I had wrote about that before

it is combined with

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/talk-by-christina-papageorgopoulou-on.html


now an effort to translate

<<A very important recent result is the regain of full genes map of 3 pre-historic farmers from N Greece, who lived 7500-5500 years from today.
the data are being analyzed and itr is expected to 'light' the ancestry of modern Europeans,
until today the data have given informations about lactose intolerance, eyes colours and skin colour,

it seems these people had problem with lactose, had brown eyes and one or 2 tones darker skin than today,>>

now the video
generally say the same
but enters on how the work is done, the time needed, and why needed,
interesting are

<< Blue eyes is a mutation that appeared 10 000 years from today but expand very fast due to atractiveness>>
<<the first farmers in Greece were lactose intolearnce, and Greece today has the biggest lactose intolerance in Europe which shows a continuity>>

now many have been said at blogs, news etc etc about that project,
officially is the 3 +1 of the above
pre-historic Greeks farmers at N Greece had
1. lactose intolerance
2. brown eyes
3. a tone or two darker skin
3+1 brown hair. (not mention in the exbition, but admited by most)



PS
unoficially many had been said,
I could write them down if you want,
but many are hoaxes,

but generally and from other works there was abutant mtDNA H,
something that most submit,

as I said before, no nucleotid -V13 has been mention yet,
as you can see in the comments before, no answer to that,
many write in their pages about a certain existance of I1

extraordinary is some say that a R1b has been found, and 1 X22, although there are not offcial pappers to that

here are the speech
http://www.livemedia.gr/video/33052

Thanks for that.

So, our speculations may indeed be correct, and it's just that this particular group lacked the derived snps at SLC42A5, although some of the Anatolian farmers and Central European farmers did have them.

 

[MOESAN]

@ to skaheen 15
Maybe I mistaked
I never understood Holderlin says 'tewas not coming from Caucasus- he said the cultural Caucasus influences upon Steppes pccurred far after 'teal' was

 

[MOESAN]

gargle gargle what a mess :to skaheen 15
I begin again
Holderlin is not saying 'teal' come from Balkans nor Caucasus had no influence on Steppes, he says (I believe) 'teal' was in the Steppes before Caucasus cultural influences took over Balkans ones upon the Steppes and maybe we can understand that we have to search for a more eastern origin of it where the western auDNA common among today 'westasian' was not present; perhaps i'm wrong?

 

[MOESAN]

I suppose 'teal' is a compound of ANE genes and something more southern 'gedrosia-like'; just a bet...

 

[Goga]

There are passes through the mountains. This is called the Cross Pass, I think.

However, it looks to me as if the easiest passage would be along the west coast of the Caspian Sea.

Beautiful place. I was born in Georgia and I'm very proud of it. Caucasus I's a very diverse and rich place with many different people and languages in such a small area.

 

[skaheen15]

gargle gargle what a mess :to skaheen 15
I begin again
Holderlin is not saying 'teal' come from Balkans nor Caucasus had no influence on Steppes, he says (I believe) 'teal' was in the Steppes before Caucasus cultural influences took over Balkans ones upon the Steppes and maybe we can understand that we have to search for a more eastern origin of it where the western auDNA common among today 'westasian' was not present; perhaps i'm wrong?

I took him to be suggesting that either the "teal" came with the copper, or was native to the steppe, and I was addressing the former possibility. I may have gotten him wrong. In any case, the entire subject is pretty complex, many possible twists.

 

[skaheen15]

I suppose 'teal' is a compound of ANE genes and something more southern 'gedrosia-like'; just a bet...

I think you're probably right.

But the way that it increased, slowly, from 25% to just over 50%, as Khvalynsk slowly morphed into Yamnaya/Afanasievo, makes me think that it was definitely trickling in from somewhere else, rather than just somehow increasing from a "teal" supply that was already there, MA-1 ancestry in those EHGs notwithstanding. Then, again, there's the near eastern mtDNA that increasingly pops up as time goes on. I definitely think that Maykop had something to do with it in the latter stages, although obviously they couldn't have been the original source.

 

[skaheen15]

I've speculated whether this "southern" component in the steppe could have come from the farmers to their west, maybe Cucuteni Tripolite spilling over onto the steppe, but everything indicates they had a lot of "ANE", and so far as we know there wasn't any "ANE" there.

I'm sure some samples from the Balkans are in the process of being analyzed, but who knows when they'll be published. (In fact, that's why I think the Mathieson et al paper hints that the population that moved east might have been from further east than Corded Ware. (i.e.a combination of Tripolye plus Yamnaya)

Speaking of Balkan samples, I'm assuming that estimate of 50/50 EEF/WHG for Vinca is pre-publication of the Iain Mathieson paper (and Lazaridis abstract), yes? So, using Stuttgart, how much WHG would be in that sample? Would it be about the same amount as in MN? 25-30% max?

Yeah, the information about Vinča was reported at the beginning of the summer, back in June, IIRC.

I'm honestly not sure how different they would look using Stuttgart as a reference, but, the main point I took from everything I read was that everyone was surprised at how much WHG Vinča had, and I haven't seen anything that would contradict that.