Part 2: 8,000 years of Natural Selection in Europe.

Fire Haired14 said:
Then why hasn't N1c been found in Mesolithic Russia, why is it all R1a1, R1b1, J, and Q1a? And it unlogical to put personalities to prehistoric people groups. You're treating N1c1, etc. as better than other Euro haplogroups and giving it an image of the original the native. It's not that simple.

Anyways, the reason you say N1c1 is the only original Y DNA of NE Europe, is because you don't want anything in West Asia to have a European origin. You want Europeans to either be innocent natives who never migrated out of Europe or from West Asians. Everything doesn't go from West Asia>Europe. And all early human technological achievements didn't come from West Asia.

West Asia isn't the source of everything. In the past no one had world maps and when they gradually moved from one location to another(there was very rarelly ever transcontinental migrations), they could potentially go in any direction, Europe doesn't always have to be on the receiving end. There's European ancestry in West and SC Asia. Actually Bronze age East Europeans fit as the best West Eurasian proxy ancestors for SC Asians.

I can tell you're taking Pre-History genetics to a personal level. That's normal I used to do it. I wanted everything to be from Germany(inclu. IEs) at first and tricked myself into thinking that. And you need to grow up like I did. It doesn't make your people(Kurds) inferior if they have European ancestry or if their language is ultimately from Europe. No one was raciest in the Bronze age. They had a small world view, restricted to their small regions. Indo Iranians were already heavily admixed by the time they made it to Iran and Iraq anyways.
Click to expand...
I don't want anything. The only thing I want is a free Kurdistan right NOW.


I'm just a history geek and love the ancient times. I'm a romantic who wants to understand the present. To understand the present you need to know the past. And all the things I read on internet I don't agree with it. And that's why I try to give a different voice be real and not parroting the nonsense of others with hidden agendas.

Many people on internet are not really smart and are very manipulative and believe others with hidden agenda to get rid of their insecurity and to boost their ego.

But this is not how history works. You can't change history. It is what it is.

Russia is a huge country if they look long and good enough they will find enough archaic N1c1 there. Even in Scandinavia, Saami ancestral homeland, they will find ancient N1c1.

East Euro auDNA component is not fully Caucasoid. It's heavily mixed with Mongoloid, Uralic and Finno-Ugric races. That's why we see that component everywhere in the Northern and Eastern areas of Eurasia. It's where Caucasoid and Mongoloid people met with each other and heavily mixed with each other and from the romantic times Eastern Euro (EHG) component was born. Part of East-Euro folks is related to folks like Eskimos, Saami, Amerindian folks..


EHG = Caucasoid + Mongoloid/Uralic/Finno-Ugric races


I'm a true Iranid person. All my ancestors were Iranid. My culture is Iranic, my native religion is West Iranic and my language is West Iranic.

I think that proto-Iranid folks, my direct ancestors, were fully Caucasoid and has NOTHING to do with EHG. It doesn't make any sense if they were party Mongoloid/EHG

They were Caucaso-Gedrosian (mixture of ANE and EEF), nothing Mongoloid/EHG in them. I will never believe in this nonsense and will always fight against this nonsens!

So, R1a-M198 was not Mongoloid/EHG, but fully Caucasoid (Caucaso-Gedrosian/EEF+ANE)

When people speak about Indo-Iranians and spread lies, they spread lies about my ancestry, about my roots. I take this somehow very personal. Of course when I don't agree with them, I always want to make my case more clear.


For me it's all about the truth and nothing but the truth.
 
Goga said:
I wrote Eastern European and meant ancestors of Slavic folks.

And what are you talking about? R1a in Sintashta can be an assimilated fella whom ancestors came from BMAC. R1a in Shistasha proofs nothing. This very fact doesn't debunk the fact that R1a-Z93 and R1a-M198 are from the Iranian Plateau. Shistasha isn't directly connected with the Iranian Plateau at the first place. It was not even Iranid. It's more further north of it. And this Shistasha, Poltavka etc. nonsense has nothing to do with R1a-M198. If they find Z93 or Z94 around BMAC and it will not have West Asian roots, then I would argue with you. But then again, that will NEVER happen.


Once AGAIN, it's all about R1a-M198 ancestor of R1a-Z93 !
Click to expand...

You wrote:
"East European admixture in Siberia and Mongolia is from the assimilated Slavic (Russian) people".
That's what you wrote.

Again, Sintashta was in Siberia, and, very obviously were recent immigrants from northeastern Europe, very recent indeed.
I'm not sure if you can read a PCA plot or not, but, if you could, you could see for yourself that Sintashta clusters between Belarusians, Ukrainians, and various Baltic folk. Very, very European. They're closer to Scandinavia than they are to anyone in south or central Asia.

Now, according to you, this very militaristic, aggressive, expansionist culture, which was almost certainly very, very patriarchal, and whose men seem to have belonged entirely to Z93(which, again, has now been found further west several centuries before Sintashta), "can be an assimilated fella whose ancestors came from BMAC". Right. That's why they look like Lithuanians, because their grandfathers came from BMAC. Makes perfect sense. Those BMAC guys evidently went all the way up to the Baltic coast, too, because Baltic languages and mythology are very, very similar to their old Indic equivalents, and it dosen't end there.

But ok, I'll bite. What about the R1a in Khvalynsk? Or that Karelian forager? Did they get their R1a from BMAC as well? Or were there multiple invasions from south Asia which reached northern Russia and the Baltic area, over the span of nearly 3,000 years? There's no archaeological evidence whatsoever to support that scenario, and you know that very well. On the other hand, it's very clear that Sintashta is derived from Abashevo, which was part of the Corded Ware horizon, so, your mental picture of BMAC must be of a lost civilization with time travel technology(it honestly wouldn't surprise me if you thought that), otherwise your whole argument, which was never coherent to begin with, falls apart very quickly.

You can try to shift the goal posts around all you want, but you've already lost.
All the giant boldface type in the world ain't gonna change that, brah.
 
skaheen15 said:
You wrote:
"East European admixture in Siberia and Mongolia is from the assimilated Slavic (Russian) people".
That's what you wrote.

Again, Sintashta was in Siberia, and, very obviously were recent immigrants from northeastern Europe, very recent indeed.
I'm not sure if you can read a PCA plot or not, but, if you could, you could see for yourself that Sintashta clusters between Belarusians, Ukrainians, and various Baltic folk. Very, very European. They're closer to Scandinavia than they are to anyone in south or central Asia.

Now, according to you, this very militaristic, aggressive, expansionist culture, which was almost certainly very, very patriarchal, and whose men seem to have belonged entirely to Z93(which, again, has now been found further west several centuries before Sintashta), "can be an assimilated fella whose ancestors came from BMAC". Right. That's why they look like Lithuanians, because their grandfathers came from BMAC. Makes perfect sense. Those BMAC guys evidently went all the way up to the Baltic coast, too, because Baltic languages and mythology are very, very similar to their old Indic equivalents, and it dosen't end there.

But ok, I'll bite. What about the R1a in Khvalynsk? Or that Karelian forager? Did they get their R1a from BMAC as well? Or were there multiple invasions from south Asia which reached northern Russia and the Baltic area, over the span of nearly 3,000 years? There's no archaeological evidence whatsoever to support that scenario, and you know that very well. On the other hand, it's very clear that Sintashta is derived from Abashevo, which was part of the Corded Ware horizon, so, your mental picture of BMAC must be of a lost civilization with time travel technology(it honestly wouldn't surprise me if you thought that), otherwise your whole argument, which was never coherent to begin with, falls apart very quickly.

You can try to shift the goal posts around all you want, but you've already lost.
All the giant boldface type in the world ain't gonna change that, brah.
Click to expand...
Your post is full of bias. I shouldn't even bother to reply to it, you don't understand it or you don't want to understand it.

And YES, East Euro admixture in Sybirya /Sybiria is not that old. Mongols and Turkic tribes raided Eastern Europe for a very long time. And what you seems to forget is that all the North of Eurasia was partly Mongoloid, from Scandinavia, Eastern Europe all the way into Kamchatka Peninsula folks were.

Full, not mixed EHG component in the Eastern Euro folks is for a huge part Mongoloid and related to all other mongoloid folks in North of Eurasia. Original EHG was at the beginning even closely related to Eskimos in Alaska.

EHG was native not only to NorthEastern part of Europe but to all parts of Northern Eurasia. So there was a continuation of EHG/Mongoloid auDNA from Scandinavia into Kamchatka Peninsula. There were no invasions. People lived next to each other for (hundred) thousands of years there.

R1a-Z93 is MUCH older than Sintashta.
Sintashta is not that old. R1a-Z93 is much older than the Sintashta culture. Also, BMAC is older than Sintasha. R1a-Z93 could even migrate into Siberia way before Sintashta culture was ever found. By the time when nomadic culture of Sintashta was born, Z93 was already assimilated and integrated by the EHG-folks. So, what are you talking about?

R1a-M198 was in West Asia thousands of years before Sintashta.


Corded Ware has no DIRECT links with BMAC. Corded Ware is NOT R1a-Z93. It's not even determined either Corded Ware was founded by R1b, by R1a-Z82 or other folks.
Corded Ware was Indo-Europized by folks from Yamnaya and Yanmnaya was R1b and not R1a.

Karelian R1a has nothing to do with R1a-Z93 or even R1a-M198 either. It was there long before Yamnyaya and could come from West Asia through Caucasus or the Balkans, after the last ice age:Weichselian glaciation. Alongside with Karelian R1a they found also hg. J and R1b.

There were many waves of migration from West Asia into Europe. Some very ancient R1a together with other West Asian haplogroups could brought to that area. But those lineages are moslty dead.

Oldest branches of R1a are still from and being found in West Asia.


And also, you are ingnoring the fact that there is almost no R1a-M198 (ancestor of Z93) in the northern parts of Eurasia. R1a-Z93 in northern parts of Eurasia migrated from the Iranian Plateau way before nomadic (non-Iranid) cultures like Sintashta were born..
 
I was not discussing Sintashta etc. but I was discussing Z93 and it's ancestor. Z93 and M198 are much older than Sintashta. You're derailing my initial discussion on purpose. And also let's talk about R1a-M198 which is the ANCESTOR of Z93. Why are you ignoring to talk about R1a-M198? R1a-M198 gave life to R1a-Z93 and there is noR1a-M198 North Eurasia.

Why do you avoid to talk about R1a-M198? R1a-M198, the ancestor of Z93, was in West Asia thousands of years before Sintashta.
 
Goga said:
Your post is full of bias. I shouldn't even bother to reply to it, you don't understand it or you don't want to understand it.

And YES, East Euro admixture in Sybirya /Sybiria is not that old. Mongols and Turkic tribes raided Eastern Europe for a very long time. And what you seems to forget is that all the North of Eurasia was partly Mongoloid, from Scandinavia, Eastern Europe all the way into Kamchatka Peninsula folks were.

Full, not mixed EHG component in the Eastern Euro folks is for a huge part Mongoloid and related to all other mongoloid folks in North of Eurasia. Original EHG was at the beginning even closely related to Eskimos in Alaska.

EHG was native not only to NorthEastern part of Europe but to all parts of Northern Eurasia. So there was a continuation of EHG/Mongoloid auDNA from Scandinavia into Kamchatka Peninsula. There were no invasions. People lived next to each other for (hundred) thousands of years there.

R1a-Z93 is MUCH older than Sintashta.
Sintashta is not that old. R1a-Z93 is much older than the Sintashta culture. Also, BMAC is older than Sintasha. R1a-Z93 could even migrate into Siberia way before Sintashta culture was ever found. By the time when nomadic culture of Sintashta was born, Z93 was already assimilated and integrated by the EHG-folks. So, what are you talking about?

R1a-M198 was in West Asia thousands of years before Sintashta.


Corded Ware has no DIRECT links with BMAC. Corded Ware is NOT R1a-Z93. It's not even determined either Corded Ware was founded by R1b, by R1a-Z82 or other folks.
Corded Ware was Indo-Europized by folks from Yamnaya and Yanmnaya was R1b and not R1a.

Karelian R1a has nothing to do with R1a-Z93 or even R1a-M198 either. It was there long before Yamnyaya and could come from West Asia through Caucasus or the Balkans, after the last ice age:Weichselian glaciation. Alongside with Karelian R1a they found also hg. J and R1b.

There were many waves of migration from West Asia into Europe. Some very ancient R1a together with other West Asian haplogroups could brought to that area. But those lineages are moslty dead.

Oldest branches of R1a are still from and being found in West Asia.


And also, you are ingnoring the fact that there is almost no R1a-M198 (ancestor of Z93) in the northern parts of Eurasia. R1a-Z93 in northern parts of Eurasia migrated from the Iranian Plateau way before nomadic (non-Iranid) cultures like Sintashta were born..
Click to expand...


And, the projector comes on!

1. Almost everything you claim is totally speculative. When you're faced with facts that don't appeal to you, because of your screamingly obvious bias, you just accuse the source of bias, and move on. Wash, rinse, repeat.

2. The earliest known M198 was found in Corded Ware. That's a fact.

3. M198 was and is in northern Eurasia. That's also a fact.

4. "Yanmnyaya" were descended from Khvalynsk, who had both R1a and R1b. Another fact. Catch up, for God's sake.

5. All of the most ancient basal R1a found to date has been found in northern Eurasia. All of it.

6. It's been explained to you over and over again, by more than one user here, that modern day haplogroup distributions don't necessarily correlate with their origins, in fact they often don't. R1b did not originate in western Europe, for example.

6. EHG as we know them were distantly related to native American populations through their ANE ancestors, it's not a direct relationship. To say that Mesolithic EHGs were "closely related" to Eskimos is hilarious.

7. You have no evidence whatsoever that M198 was in western Asia thousands of years before Sintashta. None at all.


I'll leave you to your projecting duties now. Stay bold, maaannn...
 
skaheen15 said:
And, the projector comes on!

1. Almost everything you claim is totally speculative. When you're faced with facts that don't appeal to you, because of your screamingly obvious bias, you just accuse the source of bias, and move on. Wash, rinse, repeat.

2. The earliest known M198 was found in Corded Ware. That's a fact.

3. M198 was and is in northern Eurasia. That's also a fact.

4. "Yanmnyaya" were descended from Khvalynsk, who had both R1a and R1b. Another fact. Catch up, for God's sake.

5. All of the most ancient basal R1a found to date has been found in northern Eurasia. All of it.

6. It's been explained to you over and over again, by more than one user here, that modern day haplogroup distributions don't necessarily correlate with their origins, in fact they often don't. R1b did not originate in western Europe, for example.

6. EHG as we know them were distantly related to native American populations through their ANE ancestors, it's not a direct relationship. To say that Mesolithic EHGs were "closely related" to Eskimos is hilarious.

7. You have no evidence whatsoever that M198 was in western Asia thousands of years before Sintashta. None at all.


I'll leave you to your projecting duties now. Stay bold, maaannn...
Click to expand...
First of all you seem to have missed (or ignoring on purpose) the last academic paper on R1a: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786


1. Everything you claim is not biased, but twisted/manipulated to your own preferences.

2. Wrong AGAIN! Corded Ware was R1a1a1a* (CTS4385 SNP) and NOT basal M198 what you are claiming. You're lying AGAIN! They found also R1b in Corded Ware. It's most likely that Corded Ware was Indo-Europized by West Asian R1b from Yamnaya.

3. Wrong again! Nobody found ever ancient M198 in northern Eurasia. Once again you're lying and ignoring the last academic paper on R1a.


Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png


Haplogroup+R1a+Central+Asia.png



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/03/underhill-et-al-2014.html


4. Wrong again. Yamaya was derived from Maykop. You're twisting the facts here once again. It's a proven FACT that Yamnaya comes from Maykop (West Asia). I don't even want to go into it.

5. No, it's a lie again. The oldest and most basal R1a and even M198 has been found in West Asia. Read this paper again: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786

6. no comment.

6. You're in denial. EHG had some Caucasoid auDNA in them. Hey, they found Caucasoid hg. J in ancient Karelia. Maybe that is what made difference between ancient EHG and ancient Eskimos. Ancient EHG had some Caucasoid Y-DNA in them, like hg. J and R1a.

7. Once again, West Asia is full of basal R1a-M198. Sintashta has NONE, ZERO. R1a in Sintashta is very NEW and modern. R1a-Z93 in Sintashta came from the Iranian Plateau, maybe even before Sintashta ever existed. R1a-M198 and even R1a-Z93 are MUCH, MUCH older than Sintashta or something. Even BMAC is older, lol

once again read this academic papepr again : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=2466778
 
double post
 
Hahaha, you're in the corner now, right? You don't have any answers to my questions about R1a-M198, the ancestor of Z93.

Please, do only react if you have something useful to say about R1a-M198, otherwise I don't have time for you and talk about your nonsense. Please, stop turning around! Corded Ware R1a1a1a* (CTS4385 SNP) was only ancestral to Northern Europe.


Once against its all about the archaic R1a-M198 which was the ancestral to R1a-Z93. You don't have any explannation why West Asia is full of R1a-M198 while northern Eurasia is NOT.


The FACT that West Asia is full of basal R1a-M198, ancestral to Z93, while all other regions in the world are NOT, makes my argument much more stronger than your delusional fantasies about Corded Ware, Sintashta and only GOD knows what ....
 
@Goga,

EHG isn't East Asian just like MA1 wasn't East Asian. EHG had a little East Asian ancestry. The relation EHG and MA1 have to Native Americans and Siberians is through Amerindians/Siberians having EHG/MA1-related ancestry not EHG/MA1 having East Asian ancestry.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
@Goga,

EHG isn't East Asian just like MA1 wasn't East Asian. EHG had a little East Asian ancestry. The relation EHG and MA1 have to Native Americans and Siberians is through Amerindians/Siberians having EHG/MA1-related ancestry not EHG/MA1 having East Asian ancestry.
Click to expand...
No, EHG and Eskimos/Amerindians/Siberians have common Mongoloid ancestors. The difference is that EHG have some Caucasoid auDNA in them, from as we know folks like hg. J or I. Y-DNA haplogoups IJ*, I*, J* are Caucasoid. So that's where EHG got it's Caucasoid auDNA from. Otherwise EHG would be still like original Saami, Eskimo etc. folks..
 
Goga said:
2. Wrong AGAIN! Corded Ware was R1a1a1a* (CTS4385 SNP)
Click to expand...

Goga, we have 12 samples of R1a from Corded Ware Culture (including local branches of CWC called Battle Axe and Strzyżów), as well as 2 more samples of R1a from Zhizhitskaya culture which most likely penetrated into that culture from CWC or from GAC (read here on page 185 about CWC-Zhizhitskaya interactions), and we also have at least 6 samples of R1a from cultures descended from Corded Ware in Europe.

So in total 20 samples. And only one of them was CTS4385. The remaining 19 were all different - and also not the same subclade, but several distinct subclades.

So you are posting some incredible and false generalizations.

==========================

BTW - hereis the list of archaeological cultures in which R1a has been found sofar (as of 10 October 2015, and to my knowledge):(culture- number of samples with R1a)


a)Hunter-gatherers:


EHG(Russia) - 2


b)Ancient cultures:


Non-steppeEurope:


CordedWare culture - 7
BattleAxe / Nordic Bronze - 3
Strzyżówculture*, near[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrubieszów]Hrubieszów - 2
Zhizhitskayaculture** - 2
Dnepr-Dwina-Kultur,site Anashkino*** - 1
Urnfieldculture - 3
Uneticeculture, inWielkopolska****- 1
LateBronze, Sudovia (site Turlojiske) - 1


*Strzyżówculture is a name for a local branch of Corded Ware (as is Battle Axein case of Scandinavian branch of Corded Ware).
**Accordingto Dolukhanov, "The East European Plain on the Eve ofAgriculture", Zhizhitskaya culture was influenced by Corded Wareculture or / and by Globular Amphora culture, and Corded/Globularpopulation migrated to Zhizhitskaya territory, mixing with the locals(see the link):


Dolukhanov,"The East European Plain on the Eve of Agriculture" (page185 for info on Zhizhitskaya-CW/GAC interactions)


***EarlyIron Age hillfort of Anashkino, situated on Zhizhitskoe Lake,Kunyinsky District, Pskov Oblast, near Belarusian border - see:


http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/...and-expeditions/expedition/korotevich/?lng=en


****Uneticesample from Poland, comes from ŁękiMałe kurgans, where population of nearby Bruszczewo buried theirdead - see:


1)IwonaHildebrandt-Radke, "Kurgan Cemetery in Leki Male - UniqueNecropolis of Unetice Culture" (English abstract)
2)MateuszJaeger, "KościanGroup of Unetice Culture and Fortified Settlement in Bruszczewo"(all text in English)


ConcerningBruszczewo, check also (in English):


http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/en/proj...-settlement-in-bruszczewo-research-1964-1968/
https://www.ufg.uni-kiel.de/en/rese...ater-polish-settlement-cluster-of-koscian-dfg


Steppesand Asia:


Khvalynskculture* - 1
Poltavkaculture - 1
Potapovkaculture - 1
Srubnaculture - 6
Sintashtaculture - 2
Andronovoculture - 3
Mezhovskayaculture - 1
Karasukculture - 2
Scythiansof the Altai - 4
Scythians,Volga steppe (Nadezhdinka) - 1
Scythians,Azov steppe (Tanais kurgans) - 1
LateBronze, Afontova Gora (near Lake Baikal) - 1
Tagarculture - 6
Pazyrykculture - 1
IronAge, site Sabinka II (in Altai Krai) - 1
Tashtykculture - 1
XiaoheTomb complex (near Lop Nur) - 11
Xiongnuelite burial - 1
Alans,kurgans near Krasnyy Kurgan - 1


*DavidAnthony, "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" (on PIEorigins), writes this about Khvalynsk culture:


https://books.google.pl/books?id=0F...h3WUgda#v=onepage&q=Khvalynsk culture&f=false


c)Early Medieval cultures:


Saltovo-Mayakiculture, site Salovka - 1
Slavicburials, Usedom Island - 1
 
Tomenable said:
What ??!!

M198 is not the ancestor of Z93. The direct ancestor of Z93 is Z645.

Z645 is also the common ancestor of both Z283 and Z93.

And M198 / M417 is the common direct ancestor of Z645 and L664:

See here: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M198/

And also:

http://s3.postimg.org/enwaqzgxv/Tree_for_Goga.png

Tree_for_Goga.png
Click to expand...
Ok thanks, thumbs up!

So according to this tree M198 is the same as M17 ??

I (thought and still) think that M198 was much younger than M17.
Same age as M417. But that's not really a big issue.

And that Z645 is new to me. I think they artificially created this because of Corded Ware R1a-CTS4385. Corded Ware R1a-CTS4385 was neither ancestral to East Euro Z283 nor to West Asian Z93. Corded was just a distant cousin of Z283 and Z93. Nothing to do with Z93 in Central Asia. So you can see that that theory is bogus, that Cored Ware never migrated into the East. Thats plain WRONG! Corded Ware was a different branch of R1a.

There was no migration from West to East into the Steppes !!!

In West Asia you can find ALL the ancestral haplogroups of R1a-Z93. M198, M417 etc.. It's obvious that Z93 was born in West Asia. R1a-M198 is native to West Asia. Corded Ware R1a-CTS4385 is a descendant of M198. That makes Corded Ware also derived from West Asia. Archaic and basal R1a-M198 is West Asian.

It's possible that R1a-CTS4385 migrated together with R1b from Maykop into the Yamnaya, and indirectly into Corded Ware, while East European Z283 migrated into Eastern European Steppes from the Iranian Plateau through Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan.
 
Goga, we have ca. 20 samples of R1a from Corded Ware and related or descended cultures.

And only 1 of those 20 was CTS4385. The remaining 19 belong to various different clades.

I have posted a long response but it is awaiting moderator's approval so you can't see it yet.
 
Tomenable said:
Goga, we have ca. 20 samples of R1a from Corded Ware and related or descended cultures.

And only 1 of those 20 was CTS4385. The remaining 19 belong to various different clades.

I have posted a long response but it is awaiting moderator's approval so you can't see it yet.
Click to expand...
Thanks, but I'm familiar with the R1a samples of Corded Ware and they have no direct links with Z93. And there is no basal/archaic M198 there.


The fact still is that R1a-M198 has evolved and is native to West Asia. West Asia (population) is full of ancient R1a-M198, while there is almost nothing in other places outside West Asia. If you don't believe me, here is the most recent academic paper/study about this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=2466778


In Corded Ware were not only R1a samples found, but also R1b samples which connect Corded Ware directly to Yamnaya, Maykop and therefore to West Asia. I believe that Corded Ware was Indo-Europized by R1b folks from Yamnaya.
 
Goga said:
Hahaha, you're in the corner now, right? You don't have any answers to my questions about R1a-M198, the ancestor of Z93.

Please, do only react if you have something useful to say about R1a-M198, otherwise I don't have time for you and talk about your nonsense. Please, stop turning around! Corded Ware R1a1a1a* (CTS4385 SNP) was only ancestral to Northern Europe.


Once against its all about the archaic R1a-M198 which was the ancestral to R1a-Z93. You don't have any explannation why West Asia is full of R1a-M198 while northern Eurasia is NOT.


The FACT that West Asia is full of basal R1a-M198, ancestral to Z93, while all other regions in the world are NOT, makes my argument much more stronger than your delusional fantasies about Corded Ware, Sintashta and only GOD knows what ....
Click to expand...

It really is like arguing with a creationist or something like that.

Oh, great paper, by the way. This was the best part:

"We caution against ascribing findings from a contemporary phylogenetic cluster of a single genetic locus to a particular pre-historic demographic event, population migration, or cultural transformation. The R1a TMRCA estimates we report have wide confidence intervals and should be viewed as preliminary..."

It's a fact!

But seriously, you need help. Hopefully, when the meds begin to take effect, you will stop pretending that Corded Ware R1a isn't ancestral to indo-Iranian R1a, and at that point you'll be able to embrace your northwestern roots. You need to come to terms with your own ancestry, it's tearing you up inside.

Maybe when you've recovered you'll actually read the paper that this thread is dedicated to. If you do, you'll see that Khvalynsk, which, again, had R1a and R1b, is ancestral to Yamnaya, and that there was actually a lot of western migration to the steppe in the bronze age. Once again, Sintashta was full of WHG and EEF, Srubnaya has even more EEF. These are all facts.
So, it's not a matter of opinion. It dosen't matter how you or anyone else FEELS about it, it just is. Is that really so hard to grasp? If so, you need a new hobby in addition to psychological help.
 
skaheen15 said:
It really is like arguing with a creationist or something like that.

Oh, great paper, by the way. This was the best part:

"We caution against ascribing findings from a contemporary phylogenetic cluster of a single genetic locus to a particular pre-historic demographic event, population migration, or cultural transformation. The R1a TMRCA estimates we report have wide confidence intervals and should be viewed as preliminary..."

It's a fact!

But seriously, you need help. Hopefully, when the meds begin to take effect, you will stop pretending that Corded Ware R1a isn't ancestral to indo-Iranian R1a, and at that point you'll be able to embrace your northwestern roots. You need to come to terms with your own ancestry, it's tearing you up inside.

Maybe when you've recovered you'll actually read the paper that this thread is dedicated to. If you do, you'll see that Khvalynsk, which, again, had R1a and R1b, is ancestral to Yamnaya, and that there was actually a lot of western migration to the steppe in the bronze age. Once again, Sintashta was full of WHG and EEF, Srubnaya has even more EEF. These are all facts.
So, it's not a matter of opinion. It dosen't matter how you or anyone else FEELS about it, it just is. Is that really so hard to grasp? If so, you need a new hobby in addition to psychological help.
Click to expand...
LMAO, I guess that you encountered someone who is smarter than you and whom you can't manipulate with you ridiculous arguments. But then again that would not be really difficult, since your intellectual level is not higher than that of those who live in the trailer parks with swastikas on their bodies.

Once again, it s all about R1a-M198. Never forget that!

The one who claims that CTS4385 from Corded Ware is ancestral to Iranid R1a-Z93, Z94, Z95 (that doesn't even make sense chronologically & evolutionary) and is in denial that Maykop was ancestral to Yamnaya (after they found R1b & Gedrosia auDNA in Yamnya) needs definitely a reality check. The one who is in denial is the biggest loser here. I know enough about you, lol.


From now on I'm going to try to ignore you, because you have nothing useful to contribute to my knowledge. And you're spreading nothing but nonsense. Sorry for bothering you and taking your time, goodbye.
 
I got one for you guys

It just occurred to me that we see teal long before any evidence of artifacts originating in the Caucuses. All the copper in Khavalynsk is still coming from the Balkans. I know this will be dismissed, but artifacts from the Balkans were obvious for thousands of years, then in Yamnaya (and Lower Mikhaylovka too I think) it's obvious that artifacts are originating in the Caucuses. So teal without Caucuses should really be considered.

At the very least this suggests that teal was in steppe populations before meaningful contact with the Caucuses. Assuming balkans as a source of teal is ruled out, this is in support of a (half)circum-caspian dynamic. Unless teal was in Samara since Samara Culture/EHG and we just haven't found it yet.
 
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holderlin said:
I got one for you guys

It just occurred to me that we see teal long before any evidence of artifacts originating in the Caucuses. All the copper in Khavalynsk is still coming from the Balkans. I know this will be dismissed, but artifacts from the Balkans were obvious for thousands of years, then in Yamnaya (and Lower Mikhaylovka too I think) it's obvious that artifacts are originating in the Caucuses. So teal without Caucuses should be really be considered.

At the very least this suggests that teal was in steppe populations before meaningful contact with the Caucuses. Assuming balkans as a source of teal is ruled out, this is in support of a (half)circum-caspian dynamic. Unless teal was in Samara since Samara Culture/EHG and we just haven't found it yet.
Click to expand...

Now that's thinkin' outside the box ;D

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but I think it's doubtful, and here's why.

Vinča were the original Balkan copper kings(they were making copper foil around 5000 BCE, for christ's sake), and they were at their peak right around the time Khvalynsk popped up, I think. At any rate, the two cultures existed at more or less the same time. So you gotta figure that they would have been a key source of that copper, in your scenario, if not the source.

We have Vinča genomes now, and, they're an almost exact 50/50 blend of very non-"teal" Anatolian style EEF and classic Loschbour type WHG. Their sphere of activity was pretty large, almost all of modern Serbia, plus bits of other former Yugoslav republics, and I think a good chunk of Romania. They must have been a big economic powerhouse in their day, so, with all that in mind, plus that Starčevo DNA which is almost 100% EEF, I think it's a safe bet for the time being that the neolithic Balkans wasn't a "teal" place. The caucuses are a natural enough highway between the steppe and the near east, I don't think that we need to have a specific candidate culture in mind for it to have been the most likely route for "teal" to have taken into the steppe.

Or I could be totally wrong.
Either way, it's a neat idea.

Maybe our reptilian overlords seeded the Samara area with "teal", just to mess with the ancient DNA hobbyists they knew would exist in the future. They do know everything, after all.
o_o
 
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