Fire Haired14
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A R1b that's a big deal. R1b diversity is so high in West Asia we should expect this in West Asian-derived Neolithic Europeans.
Part 2: 8,000 years of Natural Selection in Europe.
- Thread starter Fire Haired14
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A R1b that's a big deal. R1b diversity is so high in West Asia we should expect this in West Asian-derived Neolithic Europeans.
Fire Haired14
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In July Ancient DNA files were posted online. They posted the file of the Bracin Neolithic girl. One was a Vinca from Serbia. He was of Low coverage but appeared to have very high WHG, like he could have been 50% Loschbour and 50 Stuttgart.
Yeah you are flanked by ocean, but much of this isn't beach and these are massive mountains dumping huge drainage into the seas so you have steep mountainous banks or cliffs with a river to cross every so often.
And mountain passes are still mountain passes. High elevation, cold, dangerous etc. I mean a mountain range is about the most obvious kind of barrier to transportation I shouldnt have to explain it.
But we're also talking about the fertile crescent on the other side so I wouldnt rule out motivation.
Yes this is what I'm saying
The difference in the evidence between contact with the balkans vs the caucuses is night and day. These are very rich graves for the setting. ALL of the copper is from the balkans and this isn't just "the copper resembles that found in the balkans," this is irrefutable spectral data of the copper itself. Teal precedes caucuses by at least a thousand years.
Although it also could be that the balkans were manufacturing copper stuff at such a rate that the entire west fell under their trade networks and that the steppe were getting items through the caucuses, but this could be deduced by the evidence for balkan copper in the near east during the same time and I haven't ever read anything about this, nor is it likely given that CT is right down the road. And you wouldnt see just copper, other items would accompany it.
The transition from Samara/Dnieper-Donets->Khvalynsk/Sredny Stog is a eastward impulse given from the fact that SS sites coexist beside DD for a time, whereas S->K is continuous. So there seems to be a cultural push East->West from the Volga. So if Samara was influenced in it's development it's from the East, which supports what I'm getting at. Also, this implies a separation between DD/SS and S/K with DD/SS being closer to cucuteni-tripolye. So I bet we get some EEF/WHG in SS if not DD.
All this being said teal is all over the Caucuses and among Iranians with no EHG, so this might not change much other than that it was coming around the Caspian from the South East before it was coming directly through the Caucuses. But teal with copper exclusively from the Balkans implies an older genetic relationship, which in most cases requires close proximity.
LeBrok
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40 kya people knew how to get to Australia hopping from island to island on some primitive boats or rafts. Somehow 30 ky later they had a problem getting around or across Caspian or Black Sea? Mind you that before Mediterranean flooded into Black Sea it used to be much smaller. The biggest obstacles to cross to the other side were not the mountains but secluded tribes/villages in valleys blocking the easy passage.
During Ice Age the Black and Caspian were most likely frozen solid in winter, making it even easier to pass for hunter gatherers.
Yeah I get that. But we're talking about what would have needed to be a constant exchange much like a seasonal migration pattern. Not Home Erectus's range.
This probably had everything to do with horse transport. Some people here seem to
equivocate the precise nature of the evidence for domestic horses in this region but Sredny stog were almost certainly horse riders and if they were so were khvalinsk. And this is right when we see this teal appear. Look at how genetically tight the vast Yamnaya and related horizons are. You couldn't do this without horses.
bicicleur 2
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there is 1 easy pass through the center of the Caucasus, probably used by Maykop people
you can also easily cross along the Caspian Sea coast
Black Sea coast is unpracticable, but maybe was 10 ka when sea levels were lower
and then possibility by sea but no proof of that 8-9 ka and also not practical for transport of cattle or similar goods with primitive rafts
MOESAN
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staying on auDNA, I 'll try to precise my uncertain thoughts:
the today ANE found in Anatolia-N-E-Sth-Caucasus, SC Asia could have been taken from more northern Steppes around Bronze Age, whatever the mode (without speak of the consequences upon later nomad populations after change in language and culture, as Turcs and others): pacific gradual osmosis or new rulers ? (depends on prejudices or theories); I know comparing poolings of ancient DNA to other poolings in modern population, and with different depth of "definition", is full of traps; but I believe the "gedrosia" of MA1 by instance is an ANE bearer group of genes which reached later the CS-Asia, meating there the genuine 'gedrosia', partly ANI bearer in fact (an 'harappa'like population but almost without the western 'caucasus' at these times in the source population);
'west-asian' is born by admixture of 'caucasus* and 'total gedrosia'**
*:'caucasus' = i see as a kind of "northest-Near-East': Zagros? -
**: 'total gedrosia': a bit of "northern gedrosia ANE bearer" and a lot of "genuine southern gedrosia" ANI rich enough? -
'teal' could combine the 2 kinds of 'gedrosia' with more ANE and less ANI, and be the result of some contacts between partly Harappa populations with more Steppic ones;
Some surveys about Caucasus uses a 'Indus-Harappa' pooling of their own and "detected" it at non negictible % among modern Caucasus populations and modern Armenians and not only among modern Iranians.
East the Caspian, in BMAC, some interactions were found in the piemonts between sedented populations and steppic nomads, where North Mesopotamia but also Harappa Culture influences were visible; I know artefacts are not genes but it 's a first step;
by the way, the Harappa population was very high, 1m76 statured, even if less robust than the mean of Steppic people (HGs influence?) and showed the famous 'irano(indo)-afghan' complex of traits - whatever a type or a combination - which can be detected at some level among 'corded' people and steppic nomads;
&: stature is in the same time result of genetic heritage and environment-way of life, and the politic-social organization can select genes (polygamy, males challenging, warlike society...unstabel, but we cannot discard immediatly some possible links.
Concerning Haplos, I think Y-R1 (a+b) of Steppes were rich of ANE at these times, and more in detail Y-R1b were more southernly centered and had more of the northern 'gedrosia' part than Y-R1a had as a whole; the 'gedrosia' in Corded could have been taken from reviously rich in R1b population... it could explain the low 'gdrosia' among balts and Slavs of today???
I did not wait for R1b in Western Anatolia at Neolithic time; I don't know the detailed genealogic tree of Y-I, but I* separated from J* in the surroundings, so I'm not so astonished to see a peculiar kind of y-I there, well apart from the other Y-I (I1/I2 other)... what amzed me is the relatively low level of Y-G2: I was waiting more...
the today ANE found in Anatolia-N-E-Sth-Caucasus, SC Asia could have been taken from more northern Steppes around Bronze Age, whatever the mode (without speak of the consequences upon later nomad populations after change in language and culture, as Turcs and others): pacific gradual osmosis or new rulers ? (depends on prejudices or theories); I know comparing poolings of ancient DNA to other poolings in modern population, and with different depth of "definition", is full of traps; but I believe the "gedrosia" of MA1 by instance is an ANE bearer group of genes which reached later the CS-Asia, meating there the genuine 'gedrosia', partly ANI bearer in fact (an 'harappa'like population but almost without the western 'caucasus' at these times in the source population);
'west-asian' is born by admixture of 'caucasus* and 'total gedrosia'**
*:'caucasus' = i see as a kind of "northest-Near-East': Zagros? -
**: 'total gedrosia': a bit of "northern gedrosia ANE bearer" and a lot of "genuine southern gedrosia" ANI rich enough? -
'teal' could combine the 2 kinds of 'gedrosia' with more ANE and less ANI, and be the result of some contacts between partly Harappa populations with more Steppic ones;
Some surveys about Caucasus uses a 'Indus-Harappa' pooling of their own and "detected" it at non negictible % among modern Caucasus populations and modern Armenians and not only among modern Iranians.
East the Caspian, in BMAC, some interactions were found in the piemonts between sedented populations and steppic nomads, where North Mesopotamia but also Harappa Culture influences were visible; I know artefacts are not genes but it 's a first step;
by the way, the Harappa population was very high, 1m76 statured, even if less robust than the mean of Steppic people (HGs influence?) and showed the famous 'irano(indo)-afghan' complex of traits - whatever a type or a combination - which can be detected at some level among 'corded' people and steppic nomads;
&: stature is in the same time result of genetic heritage and environment-way of life, and the politic-social organization can select genes (polygamy, males challenging, warlike society...unstabel, but we cannot discard immediatly some possible links.
Concerning Haplos, I think Y-R1 (a+b) of Steppes were rich of ANE at these times, and more in detail Y-R1b were more southernly centered and had more of the northern 'gedrosia' part than Y-R1a had as a whole; the 'gedrosia' in Corded could have been taken from reviously rich in R1b population... it could explain the low 'gdrosia' among balts and Slavs of today???
I did not wait for R1b in Western Anatolia at Neolithic time; I don't know the detailed genealogic tree of Y-I, but I* separated from J* in the surroundings, so I'm not so astonished to see a peculiar kind of y-I there, well apart from the other Y-I (I1/I2 other)... what amzed me is the relatively low level of Y-G2: I was waiting more...
Yep, which is what I think teal a result of. It appears with horse riding.
There's just no Caucuses when teal appears. Not for a 1000 years or more. Not saying you can't make it through, I'm just conforming a model to this evidence where I make a reasonable supposition that a giant friggin mountain range was more of a barrier than a corridor.
Angela
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I know, Fire-Haired, but was that analysis made by a straight out comparison between Stuttgart, Loschbour and this sample, or was the WHG/EEF ratio produced by the Eurogenes calculator. The results might be very different.
Sorry to be such a pain in the you know what but precision is important if we're going to be drawing inferences from a sample.
Rather "Caucaso-Gedrosia"/"teal" is a component of "ANE" just like "WHG". It's just a Eurasian group of alleles. Certain alleles were concentrated in different populations as they diverged and of course mixed.
I like the Harappan theory, but proto-Harappan in 5000BC isnt quite The Harappan attraction of 3000-2000BC. It was however the first and largest farming center of South Asia at the time. But of course we don't see steppe contact until the Vedic period.
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@maciano or krefter
Do you know anything more about the other T1a ( ydna) found in ancient central Germany from this latest paper
I0795 was the haak finds, and its mtdna was initially H1bz ( which was also in the brotherton 2013 paper ) , it now just H1 or H1au1b
the new T1a found is KAR16A, that the one I need information on
Do you know anything more about the other T1a ( ydna) found in ancient central Germany from this latest paper
| I0795 | KAR6 | Tooth | 5216-5036 calBCE | Karsdorf | Germany | H1 or H1au1b | T1a | CTS6004 |
| I0797 | KAR16A | Tooth | 5500-4775 BCE | Karsdorf | Germany | H46b | T1a | M70 |
I0795 was the haak finds, and its mtdna was initially H1bz ( which was also in the brotherton 2013 paper ) , it now just H1 or H1au1b
the new T1a found is KAR16A, that the one I need information on
Sile
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interesting analysis from another forum
As long as the people with Early European Farmer type genetic began their migration that culminated in sub-Saharan Africa before the influx of Steppe-like people into Europe, this doesn't pose a paradox. As summarized in a blockbuster paper earlier this year:
This is comparable to the time needed for Early European farmers to advance that far (i.e. to the Northern coast of Continental Europe and Southern Scandinavia) and with that much of a change in latitude in Europe during the first wave of the Neolithic revolution in Europe.
The time depth and distribution of Y-DNA T(which is present at relatively high levels on Omotic and Cushitic populations relative to Ethio-Semitic populations) suggests that this may have been an important Y-DNA haplogroup of the EEF-like Neolithic farmers whose autosomal DNA contributed to Africa's gene pool via the Levant, possibly with Y-DNA J mixed in (although the multiple possible historical events that could have spread Y-DNA J complicate the analysis). But, Y-DNA T is too young to be a plausible candidate accompanying the spread of mtDNA M1 (as has been suggested by some) and U6 in their migrations back from Eurasia ca. 30,000 years ago, and is a poor fit to mtDNA clades that probably arrived in Africa via Iberia and then spread across North Africa to East Africa.
Y-DNA F* is basically absent from Africa, and Y-DNA I, while old enough, has a distribution that is to thin and patchy to be a very strong candidate for a companion to mtDNA M1 and U6.
Y-DNA J has about the right geographic spread in Africa to match mtDNA M1 and U6 as part of the same back migration, but it is hard to know how much of Y-DNA J is due to Semitic migration to Africa (Ethio-Semitic and Phoenician first, and then Arab later) in the last 4,000 years, how much is due to earlier Neolithic and Paleolithic migrations. Another possibility is that a Y-DNA E population migrated to Iberia early in the Upper Paleolithic era (where it left genetic traces) and then back migrated to NW Africa ca. 30,000 years ago with mtDNA M1 and U6 women from Europe.
As long as the people with Early European Farmer type genetic began their migration that culminated in sub-Saharan Africa before the influx of Steppe-like people into Europe, this doesn't pose a paradox. As summarized in a blockbuster paper earlier this year:
By ~6,000-5,000 years ago, a resurgence of hunter-gatherer ancestry had occurred throughout much of Europe, but in Russia, the Yamnaya steppe herders of this time were descended not only from the preceding eastern European hunter-gatherers, but from a population of Near Eastern ancestry. Western and Eastern Europe came into contact ~4,500 years ago, as the Late Neolithic Corded Ware people from Germany traced ~3/4 of their ancestry to the Yamnaya, documenting a massive migration into the heartland of Europe from its eastern periphery. This steppe ancestry persisted in all sampled central Europeans until at least ~3,000 years ago, and is ubiquitous in present-day Europeans.
Allowing at least 500-1,500 years for a group of Early European Farmer-like people to migrate from Western Anatolia to Ethiopia before the resurgence of hunter-gatherer ancestry or the steppe ancestry had changed the European gene pool is not an unreasonable scenario. This trip involves a march of about 1200 miles more or less due South (although, obvious, the route would not be as the crow flies).This is comparable to the time needed for Early European farmers to advance that far (i.e. to the Northern coast of Continental Europe and Southern Scandinavia) and with that much of a change in latitude in Europe during the first wave of the Neolithic revolution in Europe.
The time depth and distribution of Y-DNA T(which is present at relatively high levels on Omotic and Cushitic populations relative to Ethio-Semitic populations) suggests that this may have been an important Y-DNA haplogroup of the EEF-like Neolithic farmers whose autosomal DNA contributed to Africa's gene pool via the Levant, possibly with Y-DNA J mixed in (although the multiple possible historical events that could have spread Y-DNA J complicate the analysis). But, Y-DNA T is too young to be a plausible candidate accompanying the spread of mtDNA M1 (as has been suggested by some) and U6 in their migrations back from Eurasia ca. 30,000 years ago, and is a poor fit to mtDNA clades that probably arrived in Africa via Iberia and then spread across North Africa to East Africa.
Y-DNA F* is basically absent from Africa, and Y-DNA I, while old enough, has a distribution that is to thin and patchy to be a very strong candidate for a companion to mtDNA M1 and U6.
Y-DNA J has about the right geographic spread in Africa to match mtDNA M1 and U6 as part of the same back migration, but it is hard to know how much of Y-DNA J is due to Semitic migration to Africa (Ethio-Semitic and Phoenician first, and then Arab later) in the last 4,000 years, how much is due to earlier Neolithic and Paleolithic migrations. Another possibility is that a Y-DNA E population migrated to Iberia early in the Upper Paleolithic era (where it left genetic traces) and then back migrated to NW Africa ca. 30,000 years ago with mtDNA M1 and U6 women from Europe.
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Goga
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According to the most recent paper EHG was 57% Caucasoid and 43% Mongoloid (Eastern Siberian). So I made a little mistake, because I thought that EHG was more Mongoloid than Caucasoid. But, personally I do still believe that EHG was more Mongoloid, but I don't have time to explain why.
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421.figures-only
Tomenable
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Goga - this map shows, that modern Mansi, Khanty and Nenets are 43% Eastern Siberian, not that EHG was such.
EHG was without Eastern Siberian ancestry, but modern Mansi, Khanty and Nenets are a mix of EHG + Eastern Siberian.
An ineresting thing is that - if we believe this map - mixing between ANE and East Asians which produced Native Americans took place in Eurasia. Actually, I imagined that ANE and East Asians migrated to America separately, and mixed only in America, not before getting there.
EHG was without Eastern Siberian ancestry, but modern Mansi, Khanty and Nenets are a mix of EHG + Eastern Siberian.
An ineresting thing is that - if we believe this map - mixing between ANE and East Asians which produced Native Americans took place in Eurasia. Actually, I imagined that ANE and East Asians migrated to America separately, and mixed only in America, not before getting there.
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