Volga Steppe Khvalynsk culture (Copper Age) from 5200-4000 BC, R1a and R1b together!

[arvistro]

t's allot more complicated than that. Another theory is, that Proto IE are Central Asian derived moving up on the eastern shores of the Caspian to Samara and there down to the Steppes which would explain how they got this weird EHG-Teal aDNA and y-mtdna combination.

It is not "another" theory, it is THE Indo-Uralic theory basics.

 

[arvistro]

Actually this Indo-Uralic theory gives me following impression:
We have "super cool" youth in Latvia who speak kind of Latvian but using English terms. For example, "es walkoju uz worku" (I am walking to the work).
Es, -oju, uz, -u those are Latvian. Walk, work of course is English.
In our case Latvian = Indo-Uralic and English = North Caucasian.

So, I offer a new view on this PIE problem. They were marginal community of immigrants from the East on its way to 'North-Caucasianisation' under pressure of their more advanced/populous neighbors, but then they got a <nuclear bomb> and became masters of their age.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Actually this Indo-Uralic theory gives me following impression:
We have "super cool" youth in Latvia who speak kind of Latvian but using English terms. For example, "es walkoju uz worku" (I am walking to the work).
Es, -oju, uz, -u those are Latvian. Walk, work of course is English.
In our case Latvian = Indo-Uralic and English = North Caucasian.

So, I offer a new view on this PIE problem. They were marginal community of immigrants from the East on its way to 'North-Caucasianisation' under pressure of their more advanced/populous neighbors, but then they got a <nuclear bomb> and became masters of their age.

And in 5,000 years English will be a small-language family and everyone will be speaking Latvian

 

[Tomenable]

David Anthony, "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" (on PIE origins), writes this about Khvalynsk culture:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=0F...h3WUgda#v=onepage&q=Khvalynsk culture&f=false

Khvalynsk was likely one of early PIE cultures, together with Sredny Stog and Repin (Repin = ancestral to Yamnaya).

On the other hand there is a real Proto Kartvelian substrata in PIE. What means Proto Indo European can't have evolved in close contact zone to Proto Uralic but it had to have evolved in close contact zone with Kartvelian.

Actually, David Anthony wrote that PIEs had close relations with Proto-Kartvelians, but even closer with Proto-Uralics:

"(...) The Semitic and Caucasian vocabulary that was borrowed into Proto-Indo-European through Kartvelian therefore contains roots that belonged to some Pre-Kartvelian or Proto-Kartvelian language in the Caucasus. This language had relations, through unrecorded intermediaries, with Proto-Indo-European on one side and Proto-Semitic on the other. That is not a particularly close lexical relationship. If Proto-Kartvelian was spoken on the south side of the North Caucasus Mountain range, as seems likely, it might have been spoken by people associated with the Early Transcaucasian Culture (also known as the Kura-Araxes culture), dated about 3500–2200 BCE. They could have had indirect relations with the speakers of Proto-Indo-European through the Maikop culture of the North Caucasus region. Many experts agree that Proto-Indo-European shared some features with a language ancestral to Kartvelian but not necessarily through a direct face-to-face link. Relations with the speakers of Proto-Uralic were closer. (...)"

This suggests that Proto-Indo-Europeans lived in areas located between Proto-Uralics and Proto-Kartvelians.

Proto-Kartvelians lived in the Caucasus region, right? But do we know where did Proto-Uralics actually live ???

Did Proto-Uralics live somewhere close to the Ural Mountains, or in a completely different place?

 

[arvistro]

Relation with Uralic was genetic, it does not mean they had to live close...
The skeleton of the language was Indo-Uralic, probably legacy of those folk from their Eastern motherland. Same motherland from which Uralic arrived later. North of Caspian as per Kortlandt.
Like in my Latvian - English example, those were Indo-Uralic people on their way to 'North-Caucasianisation' (for lack of better term)..
Using Indo-Uralic pronouns, case endings, verbal endings, participles and derivational suffixes but having "heterogenetic" vocabulary. Just like in my Latvian - English example.

 

[MOESAN]

David Anthony, "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" (on PIE origins), writes this about Khvalynsk culture:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=0F...h3WUgda#v=onepage&q=Khvalynsk culture&f=false

Khvalynsk was likely one of early PIE cultures, together with Sredny Stog and Repin (Repin = ancestral to Yamnaya).

Actually, David Anthony wrote that PIEs had close relations with Proto-Kartvelians, but even closer with Proto-Uralics:

"(...) The Semitic and Caucasian vocabulary that was borrowed into Proto-Indo-European through Kartvelian therefore contains roots that belonged to some Pre-Kartvelian or Proto-Kartvelian language in the Caucasus. This language had relations, through unrecorded intermediaries, with Proto-Indo-European on one side and Proto-Semitic on the other. That is not a particularly close lexical relationship. If Proto-Kartvelian was spoken on the south side of the North Caucasus Mountain range, as seems likely, it might have been spoken by people associated with the Early Transcaucasian Culture (also known as the Kura-Araxes culture), dated about 3500–2200 BCE. They could have had indirect relations with the speakers of Proto-Indo-European through the Maikop culture of the North Caucasus region. Many experts agree that Proto-Indo-European shared some features with a language ancestral to Kartvelian but not necessarily through a direct face-to-face link. Relations with the speakers of Proto-Uralic were closer. (...)"

This suggests that Proto-Indo-Europeans lived in areas located between Proto-Uralics and Proto-Kartvelians.

Proto-Kartvelians lived in the Caucasus region, right? But do we know where did Proto-Uralics actually live ???

Did Proto-Uralics live somewhere close to the Ural Mountains, or in a completely different place?

Always the problem of today and past location of people and languages, as opposed to archeologic remnants-
Who proves us Katvelian languages were at first spoken in South Caucasus?: could not the first speakers of these languages from more East locations? Yet, Urratians / Hurrits would have been come from S-E the Caspian, according to someones. Correct me if I'm wrong. the "southern-without-EEF" component of Yamanya people (Samara) and affiliated people could be explained like that in a more parcimonious way (always my eastern peri-caspian hypothesis opposed to the N to S transcaucasus one) - what would please me would having precise points about metals names in the diverse languages families in cause.
I have always found weird the great motivation of well evolved people - possessing metals ores in mountains and dominating ovins-caprins stocks between valleys and mountains - to pass through the Caucasus Mountains to steppic plains without too much ressources? and Yet they would have had challengers in the form of closer Cucuteni-Tripolje people... just an arguing, without any absolute certitude, because life and mankind as you know...
perhaps parental ligneages could send an answer, but in these mountainous regions drift can be strong...

 

[MOESAN]

It's not the clearest elements to make our opinion byt a metric survey about Steppe samples + Maykop one and Shengarit one showed Khvalynsk were not homogenous; one sample was close enough to or at least less far from 1) Shengarit - 2) Maykop; this closer Khvalynsk one was close to a Sreny Stog sample. The farthest Khvalynsk sample is very close to the Mesolithic (EHG?) sample and to some Baltic Neolithic samples (Baltic Neolithic samples had a large span...)
I'm tempted to think PIE cristallized among a mix of HGs (a kind of Y-R1a at high levels) with a more southern at first more evolved group neolithicized before where maybe Y-R1b were more dense.
perhaps we have not to be too affraid by the presenc of some other Y- Haplos in W Steppes anf even farther North - it's possible a group of numerous Y-R1b was acculturated at pre-PIE times by some small group rich for Y-J2 among others, and that with time and extension of the process of acculturation and differentiation the more numerous R1b
by drift almost logically elimiated the less numerous Y-J2 (as others even lesser numerous) - the earlier Y-J far North were just the proof that Y-J had already send some isolated "scouts", through East the Caspian. We need "a lonesome swallow does not make spring"
this process of acculturation by in its geographical expansion could have put very soon R1b with some R1a on other borders (North-East of them in Central Asia)
all bets withou government guarantee!

 

[Brennos]

It's not the clearest elements to make our opinion byt a metric survey about Steppe samples + Maykop one and Shengarit one showed Khvalynsk were not homogenous; one sample was close enough to or at least less far from 1) Shengarit - 2) Maykop; this closer Khvalynsk one was close to a Sreny Stog sample. The farthest Khvalynsk sample is very close to the Mesolithic (EHG?) sample and to some Baltic Neolithic samples (Baltic Neolithic samples had a large span...) I'm tempted to think PIE cristallized among a mix of HGs (a kind of Y-R1a at high levels) with a more southern at first more evolved group neolithicized before where maybe Y-R1b were more dense. perhaps we have not to be too affraid by the presenc of some other Y- Haplos in W Steppes anf even farther North - it's possible a group of numerous Y-R1b was acculturated at pre-PIE times by some small group rich for Y-J2 among others, and that with time and extension of the process of acculturation and differentiation the more numerous R1b by drift almost logically elimiated the less numerous Y-J2 (as others even lesser numerous) - the earlier Y-J far North were just the proof that Y-J had already send some isolated "scouts", through East the Caspian. We need "a lonesome swallow does not make spring" this process of acculturation by in its geographical expansion could have put very soon R1b with some R1a on other borders (North-East of them in Central Asia) all bets withou government guarantee!

I think the same thing, but with some variations: I always thought that PIE came from a more southern place than the classical Urheimat. For me, a group of J2a and G2a men neolithicized R1b men from Caucasus and the steppe. Then PIE evolved in a community of R1b men with wives from the area of the J2a and G2a farmers. The last passage was the Indoeuropeization of R1a men, who were the original mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Western Siberia.

 

[MOESAN]

I think the same thing, but with some variations: I always thought that PIE came from a more southern place than the classical Urheimat. For me, a group of J2a and G2a men neolithicized R1b men from Caucasus and the steppe. Then PIE evolved in a community of R1b men with wives from the area of the J2a and G2a farmers. The last passage was the Indoeuropeization of R1a men, who were the original mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Western Siberia.

very possible - my current position is the Y-R1b were at first more east the Caspian than in North Pont - I know my guess is a guess: other people hold Y-R1b was older South the Caucasus... problem of analysis of succession of SNP's... I speak here of OUR R1b close ancestors, not the Upper Paleolithic ones, settled even farther East...

 

[Tomenable]

On 20 February 2015 - before we had any Y-DNA from Khvalynsk culture - Mayu posted these maps on his blog:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

More about Khvalynsk culture can be found here, in an article from 2012:

http://thehistoryofeuropepodcast.blogspot.com/2012/06/incredible-khvalynsk-culture-of-lower.html

The Khvalynsk were early forerunners in the use of domesticated horses and burying their important dead in kurgans. If you remember from previous posts or are a listener to the podcast, you'll know that a kurgan is a burial mound made popular with the arrival of the Indo-Europeans. The burial of their dead also marks a transition from an egalitarian society to a more stratified one. Some of the graves contain far better arrays of grave goods than others, but their was yet to be a special marker for a chief or ruler of a community. They were also early adopters of the metal technologies. Many of their graves have metal ornamental jewelry. Conspicuously absent though are metal tools or weapons, suggesting that either the Khvalynsk had not discovered the incredible usage of metal, were only advanced enough smiths to make jewelry or imported the metal objects from other cultures surrounding it. Marija Gimbutas, the archeologist we relied on heavily for episode 6 of the podcast, visited the Khvalynsk site herself and denoted a grave she believed to be a chief. This grave contained a number of highly crafted flint weapons and a number of beads. In addition to the beads there were the teeth of a number of wild animals, some of which are difficult to extract. The difficulty in which these teeth were cut out of an animal after death suggests that some of the teeth might have been valuable enough as trade items. Whether or not they served as a proto-currency though is impossible to tell. The Khvalynsk would eventually devolve and reemerge as the Yamna culture and to a lesser extent, the Sredny Stog Culture, both of which episode 7 of the podcast will delve into.

 

[Tomenable]

The last passage was the Indoeuropeization of R1a men, who were the original mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Western Siberia.

We have samples of EHGs* with both R1a and R1b - despite different Y-DNA, they were autosomally identical (= the same reproductive community).

*Eastern Hunter-Gatherers

However, later they got a Neolithic "Teal" admixture, which was already present in Khvalynsk (and to an even larger extent in later cultures), without much change in their Y-DNA (R1b/R1a). I think they got "Teal" through female lines mostly - either through bride exchange/kidnapping, or through conquest (i.e. a group of EHGs conquered farming communities, decimated/marginalized their men, and took their women).

Khvalynsk already possessed domesticated horses, even though there is probably (so far) not much evidence that they could ride them.

I wonder if domestication of horses by EHGs took place before they got admixed by "Teal" people, or after that?

We have evidence from North America of hunter-gatherers domesticating horses on their own, with no help from farmers. IMO domestication of horses is a feat achieved by EHGs, while the rest of "know-how" they got from "Teal" immigrants, perhaps via their women.

From North America we also have evidence, that nomadic hunters who can ride horses are capable of dominating farmers militarily (Comanche, Sioux, Cheyenne nomadic hunters dominated / defeated tribes of farmers, such as Arikara, Mandan, Hidatsa or Pawnee).

We also have examples of nomadic hunting tribes forming "mutually beneficial symbiotic relationships" with farming tribes (e.g. Comanche with Wichita). But if there was such a relationship between EHGs and "Teal people", then where is Y-DNA of "Teal people"?

Comanche-Wichita "nomads-farmers symbiosis" existed for ~150 years, until the destruction of Comanche by the U.S. Army.

================================

Just like we had Neolithic samples from previously WHG-inhabited territories, and we wondered where did those G2a come from; now we have evidence of Neolithic "Teal people" in EHG-inhabited territories, and we are wondering what Y-DNA did they bring with them, if any.

In case of EEF people there was a clear evidence that Y-DNA changed (WHGs had I and C, new farmers had G, E, H, etc.).

But in case of "Teal" people, there is no similar evidence - nothing indicates (so far) that they replaced EHG male lineages.

However, in case of EEF we have finally managed to locate their point of departure into Europe, when Neolithic ENF samples from Western Anatolia were tested. So now we know with near-certainty, that farmers expanded into Central Europe from Western Anatolia.

What we need to do next, is to try to find samples of aDNA of "Teal people" in their original homeland - where did they come to the steppe from?

Khvalynsk people were 75% EHG and 25% Teal. Yamnaya people were probably even more Teal, and less EHG.

But where did the population which was 100% Teal originally live ???

And what was that population's Y-DNA and mtDNA ???

As for Yamnaya from Samara Oblast:

IIRC, they used to be modelled as ~70% EHG (~35% WHG + ~35% ANE) + ~30% Teal (~25% Near Eastern + ~5% South Asian):

But apparently some recalculations have taken place (?), and now Yamnaya Samara are only ~50% EHG + ~50% Teal/Armenian:

Why did proportion of EHG in Yamnaya decline? Is this because the "Teal people" were themselves partially ANE or WHG or EHG?

Here is what Gravetto-Danubian from Anthrogenica has suggested regarding autosomal ancestry of "Teal people", including their ANE:

EHG are modelled as 60% WHG, 40% ANE

Yet, Yamnaya are almost 50/ 50 EHG and "Teal" or "Georgian".

Yet in diluting their EHG component from 100 % to 50%, their ANE stays at ~ 40% (ie does not drop). Also Yamnaya's WHG level is ~ 35 % (ie it drops from EHG). And they pick up EEF -type mixture, but apparently a different type to central Europe.

So the Teal guys must have had a fair whack of ANE, as well as EEF*, and low WHG. (something like 45: 45: 10)

This means, if existent, Teal's geographic origins must be from an area which by 4000 BC had EEf exposure, but had low WHG, and high ANE - as Generalissimo explained a few posts back. If correct, this puts a geographic limit as to where it could have come from: IMO the Aral-Caspian region, most likely toward the south - Ie the Amu Darya region. But we know in fact this region was in contact with more north-western areas long before the Bronze Age - hence Khvalynsk already shows some "Teal". So "Teal" was possibly already rather widespread by 3000 BC, and increased in Yamnaya as more groups moved onto the steppe from the Caucasus (Majkop) region ?

The Majkop genomes are being studied

*But he is wrong calling that EEF - "Teal people" had no EEF, they just have some other Neolithic admixture, as Coldmountains writes:

Teal had zero EEF and Yamnaya was around 33-35% ANE. Teal is obviously from the Neolithic Caucasus

If you read carefully in the very quote you referenced, you'd note that I wrote that Teal had some kind of EF but different to that in Central Europe. I'm not aware of a current acronym for it though ( ? ' The other EF': TOEF; or "Asian early farmer: AEF

)

Indeed - according to Davidski, "Teal people" resembled modern Western Georgians (Mingrelians) even more than Armenians:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/10/yamnayas-exotic-ancestry-kartvelian.html

 

[MOESAN]

Georgians have a little bit more 'northern european' than Armenians (who have nothing of it indeed!) - on some plottings, the deviation of Georgians from Armenians is towards Tadjiks...whta is not the geographic direction, of course!
I think (inspired by other forumers too) that the osmosis between EHG and "southerners" began earlier than Bronze Age, rather at a Neolithic level; and so I see rather the East Caspian side as a road of exchanges than the Caucasus mountains, at least for the most of these early exchanges; Maykop could have had a strong enough cultural effect but a weak genetic one; but it's wise waiting for Maykop auDNA. Maybe Maykop saw some light demic exchanges on the 2 directions?

 

[Rethel]

Everyone who claim that Q from Chwałyńsk was IE should see this:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.de/2015/11/the-khvalynsk-men.html?m=1


They wrote:

On the other hand, sample 10434, the one belonging to haplogroup Q1a,
and positioned further east than the other two, appears to have been
whacked on the head a few times and simply thrown in a ditch.

He was certainly very welcome by R1 Indoeuropeans

As I said - IE = R1. Period.
It cannot be another way.

 

[Kristiina]

Tomenable, why did you exclude Finland and Estonia from Corded Ware? In these maps:
https://extras.csc.fi/arctinet/kivikaus/m2/2_6_1.htm
http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/arla/keram/nuora.html
you can see that Corded Ware covered all Estonia and Western Finland and Corded ware period is dated c. 3200 - 2500 eKr. in Finland. There is not any delay compared to Sweden.

One of the highest numbers of battle axes has been found in Finland. Battle axes have been found even in the northern part of the country. This paper includes many maps on distribution of battle axes in Finland:
http://www.kirj.ee/public/Archaeology/2014/issue_1/arch-2014-1-3-29.pdf

Agriculture started in Finland during the Corded ware period. Here is more information on agriculture in Finland during the Corded Ware period: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/281/1791/20140819

"Here, we examine food residues in pottery, testing a hypothesis that Neolithic farming was practiced beyond the 60th parallel north. Our findings, based on diagnostic biomarker lipids and δ13C values of preserved fatty acids, reveal a transition at ca 2500 BC from the exploitation of aquatic organisms to processing of ruminant products, specifically milk, confirming farming was practiced at high latitudes."

Moreover, I have seen in PC graphs that modern Finns and Estonians are still very close to ancient Corded Ware people.

 

[Kristiina]

This is my own position (red dot) with respect to ancient samples according to Eurogenes. You can see that I am close to Corded Ware in the direction of SHG. I doubt that there are many people on this forum who are closer to Corded Ware than I am.

 

[Tomenable]

Tomenable, why did you exclude Finland and Estonia from Corded Ware?

That is not my map, it was made by certain Maju, who is from Basque Country - I posted a link to his blog.

As for Corded Ware in Estonia and Finland - some maps show it, others forget about it. It was probably Indo-European speaking, because Finnic-speakers expanded to Estonia and Finland only around year 1200 BC, assimilating local IE substratum (these early IE loanwords are still visible in Baltic Finnic languages today, but are not present in Ugric and other Uralic languages spoken farther east):

Here good maps from elisanet.fi website, showing origin, migration and development of Finnic languages:

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

 

[Tomenable]

Moreover, I have seen in PC graphs that modern Finns and Estonians are still very close to ancient Corded Ware people.

Depends which ones. There is a strong genetic divide between Western (or South-Western) Finns and Eastern Finns. While Western Finns may be close to Corded Ware people, Eastern Finns are not. Some people say that this divide is due to Swedish settlement in Western Finland*, but in reality it is probably more ancient (as I wrote, as Proto-Finnic-speakers expanded from the Ural region and from the Upper Volga region towards the Baltic Sea, they assimilated local IE substratum around year 1200 BCE, when they got there - that IE substratum existed only in South-Western Finland, as Corded Ware culture never made it to Eastern and North-Eastern Finland).

Finnic languages ultimately descend from West-Uralic, which was spoken ca. 1600 BC at the Upper Volga:

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

Ca. 1200 BC Early Proto-Finnic speakers, descended from West-Uralic speakers, made it to the Baltic Sea:

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

Middle Proto-Finnic was spoken ca. 500 BC (these maps are based on recent studies of Finnish linguists):

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

*There is still a large ethnic Swedish minority in Western Finland, and many Western Finns have Swedish ancestry.

 

[Tomenable]

As for Estonia - Corded Ware influence is quite obvious there, because Estonians have a lot of R1a (apart from N1c).

I know that some parts of Finland also have a lot of R1a, but which parts are these ??? Southern regions ???

 

[Kristiina]

Corded Ware influence is obvious in Finland autosomally, archaelogically and linguistically.

I think that the highest R1a frequency is in Bothnia area (in the Northwest). However, there is R1a everywhere. You can check it here https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Finland?iframe=ymap or here https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ymap but it is better choose ALL and then zoom to Finland.

Maybe Finnish language stems from the Uralic language that was spoken in Volga area but as long as we do not have any ancient YDNA or autosomal evidence from the relevant areas we cannot be so confident about anything.

My genes are surely not a result of any Swedish settlement. The basis of my genes is in Mesolithic Kunda and in a later population with SHG affinity. A more recent part of my genes is from Corded Ware and from the assimilation of genes from an Arctic population inhabiting the Northern part of Scandinavia into Western Finns but there really isn’t much room for any Uralic gene flow from Volga during the Iron Age. My Siberian portion is similar to Norwegian Siberian portion (cf. mtDNA Z1a). In Busby et al. 2015, all Siberian in Finns (as well as in Norwegians) is related to a group consisting of Kets, Selkups and Nenets, but none of this geneflow went into Mordvins who are the closest linguistic relatives of Finnic speakers or to Kargopol Russians.

When you look at the PC map I posted, you can see that Corded Ware is clearly to the east of Scandinavians and Germans; it is even to the east of my position. Volga Ural populations are equally close to Corded Ware as North European IE’s, and Saamis may be even closer than Finns or Scandinavians. If there ever was any Iron Age Uralic migration from Volga to Finland, those Uralics were autosomally close to Corded Ware people.

“Corded Ware culture never made it to Eastern and North-Eastern Finland”
On the basis of distribution of battle axes, that claim is not very tenable. See the snips below: the first one without a text is the distribution of Finnish and Continental battle axes.

 

[Kristiina]

Moreover, now that the most ancient N1c is still N1c found in Smolensk 2500 BC which is probably ancestral to all Finnish N1c and precedes all Finnic protolanguages you posted, there is really not any Iron Age genetic yDNA path from Volga to Finland and neither in terms of mtDNA. The situation is tricky.

Ancient yDNA and autosomal anaysis from Volga is desperately needed in order to clarify the situation.