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Thread: Volga Steppe Khvalynsk culture (Copper Age) from 5200-4000 BC, R1a and R1b together!

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    Exclamation Volga Steppe Khvalynsk culture (Copper Age) from 5200-4000 BC, R1a and R1b together!

    So far R1b and R1b used to be found separately in samples from distinct IE archaeological cultures!

    But finally we have evidence of coexistence - from the updated version of March 2015 paper (posted on 10 October 2015):

    http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early...%3Fcollection=

    Page 35 out of 46, ~7000-6000 years old R1a and R1b men from Khvalynsk Eneolithic in the Volga steppes (near Saratovo):

    http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorx...16477.full.pdf

    "Khvalynsk Eneolithic in the Volga steppes: Saratovo, Russia (n=3)
    Three individuals described here were among 39 excavated in 1987-88 at the Eneolithic
    cemetery of Khvalynsk II, Saratov oblast, Russia, on the west bank of the Volga River, 6 km
    north of the village of Alekseevka. Khvalynsk I and II are two parts of the same cemetery,
    excavated in 1977-79 (Khvalynsk I) and 1987-88 (Khvalynsk II).23 The two excavations
    revealed 197 graves, about 10x larger than other cemeteries of this period in the Volga-Ural
    steppes, dated by radiocarbon to 5200-4000 BCE (95.4% confidence). Bones of domesticated
    cattle and sheep-goat, and horses of uncertain status, were included in 28 human graves and
    in 10 sacrificial deposits. The 367 copper artifacts in the graves, mostly beads and rings, are
    the oldest copper objects in the Volga-Ural steppes, and trace elements and manufacturing
    methods in a few objects suggest trade with southeastern Europe. Together with high 15N in
    the human bones from Khvalynsk, which might have caused a reservoir effect making 14C
    dates too old, the circulation of so much copper, which increased in SE Europe after 4700
    BCE, suggests that a date after 4700 BCE would be reasonable for many graves at
    Khvalynsk. Copper was found in 13 adult male graves, 8 adult female graves, and 4 sub-adult
    graves. The unusually large cemetery at Khvalynsk contained southern Europeoid and
    northern Europeoid cranio-facial types, consistent with the possibility that people from the
    northern and southern steppes mingled and were buried here.


    Ÿ- 10122 / SVP35 (grave 12)

    Male (confirmed genetically), age 20-30, positioned on his back with raised knees, with 293
    copper artifacts, mostly beads, amounting to 80% of the copper objects in the combined
    cemeteries of Khvalynsk I and II. Probably a high-status individual, his Y-chromosome
    haplotype, R1b1, also characterized the high-status individuals buried under kurgans in later
    Yamnaya graves in this region, so he could be regarded as a founder of an elite group of
    patrilineally related families. His MtDNA haplotype H2a1 is unique in the Samara series.

    Ÿ- 10433 / SVP46 (grave 1)

    Male (confirmed genetically), age 30-35, positioned on his back with raised knees, with a
    copper ring and a copper bead. His R1a1 haplotype shows that this haplotype was present in
    the region, although it is not represented later in high-status Yamnaya graves. His U5a1i
    MtDNA haplotype is part of a U5a1 group well documented in the Samara series.

    Ÿ- 10434 / SVP47 (grave 17)

    Male (confirmed genetically), age 45-55, positioned contracted on his side, with 4
    pathological wounds on his skull, one of which probably was fatal. No grave gifts or animal
    sacrifices accompanied the burial. His Q1a Y-chromosome haplotype is unique in the Samara
    steppe series, but his U4a2 or U4d MtDNA haplotype are not unusual."

    Perhaps this is the "missing link", representing the Proto-Indo-European culture!

    I guess this points to Copper Age Khvalynsk culture as the original community of Proto-Indo-European speakers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Both the R1a and R1b from this site are probably basal forms that no longer exist today. That's why it's no surpise to see them together. R1a-M417 and R1b-L23 probably became popular in separate populations after the birth of these people. And R1a-M417 and R1b-L23 erased earlier R1b1*, R1a1*, etc. lineages from EHG that existed together all over the place.

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    thanks Fair Haired; things are becoming very exiting!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I agree with Fire Haired. The Samara/Khvalynsk R1bs are basal to the Yamna and Modern West European lineages. We have yet still to find the true source of L23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    I agree with Fire Haired. The Samara/Khvalynsk R1bs are basal to the Yamna and Modern West European lineages. We have yet still to find the true source of L23.
    Really? Just because one place is found carrying both R1a and b it means IE language! What about this Q1a guy in a mix? Also IE speaker?
    Khalinsk culture has possible connection to Yamnaya and therefore to IE genesis, but it is very far from it in cultural development. No farming yet, no domesticated horses, no wheel, no genetic mixing with farmer neighbors yet from Near East and Cucuteni, etc. Were they proto IE, definitely not. At best they were one of contributing parties.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 12-10-15 at 00:12.
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    It's totally possible R1b-L23 and R1a-M417 are from West Asia. If you think, all R1a-Z93 from ancient Steppe belongs to the same branch and not to the most popular form in India today. Maybe Yamnaya Z2103 is a differnt form than West Asian Z2103, and is an offshoot of West Asian Z2103. The highest R1b and R1b1a2 diversity is in West Asia. It's stupid IMO to assume the debate is over and there's prove they're EHG lineages and all expanded with Steppe-people.

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    I don't think Fire-Haired was saying that the Ydna found at this site is the direct ancestor of the later lineages we find on the steppe. I think he's saying that these might be lineages* which died out, and that the ancestors of the lineages that later spread from the steppe probably existed elsewhere. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

    I'm not quite sure what to make of this site. Even though this is probably closer to 4700 BC than to 5200 BC, and farmers and metallurgy were to both their west and south, there is not even rudimentary farming and no metal working of any kind. All they had was copper beads which from the style and the metal indicate that they traded for them with Neolithic European populations to their west. There's also no sign of the wheel and no clear indication the horses had been domesticated, much less ridden. Indo-European had words for all these things.

    Looking at it from a purely language perspective, according to the David Anthony theory isn't the earliest form of PIE (Anatolian) supposed to leave the steppe around 4000 BC? While it didn't have a word for wheel, it did have words for farming, which these people didn't have. So, I think I agree with LeBrok that these people may have fed into "Yamnaya" but I would doubt that this is any type of Indo-European group.

    There are also interesting things to glean from their culture and their genetics.

    They did have domesticated cattle and sheep. This is important, because they had to be imported from elsewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but David Anthony hypothesized that this was the first major change in the life of these hunter-gatherers and that they imported the animals from their Neolithic (EEF like) neighbors to the west.

    This is where the genetics come into play. They don't seem to have any EEF. However, to varying degrees they do seem to have "teal" which we might define as "ENF plus ANE"? So, where did it come from? We only have two options...from south to north over the Caucasus or from Central Asia. If it came from the southern Caucasus wouldn't whoever carried it have brought along some farming? Later on there was some rudimentary farming in the river valleys. It's not as if the steppe was totally inhospitable to farming.

    Let's say for arguments' sake (could people please not take my speculations as to what could have happened for dogma according to Angela as to what did happen?) that it all came from women from the Caucasus or south of it, and because the steppe was very sparsely populated some limited amount of bride exchange or raiding or selective advantage of some sort quickly changed them autosomally.In that case perhaps the hunter gatherers only wanted animals (along with the women) because it was an easier "sell" than crop farming.

    On the other hand, if the admixture came from groups in central Asia, groups which were ANE heavy and also farmer heavy but who had abandoned crop farming in inhospitable terrain, they would have only domesticated animals to exchange.

    Now, I don't know what yDNA those south Caucasus or more Central Asian like groups might have carried. Maybe J2a? However, I do have to mention that I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that R1b groups might have straddled the Caucasus and Caspian.

    If R1b was the carrier of ANE, I don't see why it's impossible for them to have mingled with WHG in the northern stretches and ENF in the southern stretches. I think Jean Manco once posited that during their hunter-gatherer phase R1b might have wintered south of the Caspian and summered north of it. I don't remember how she arrived at that idea, but IF that was the case, it could certainly explain how some R1b got such healthy doses of "Teal" or ENF/ANE way before Maykop started influencing the steppe. By the way, women in a lot of societies like to get their sons' wives from their own relatives if possible, even if they're pretty distant geographically. In either scenario, some R1b carriers might have been "Teal" like, and some "EHG" like, and some mixed, depending on the place and time. I'm not saying that happened. I'm just saying I think it might be a possibility.

    One thing that is pretty clear is that there were mixed groups of R1b/R1a/Q on the steppe. Later on it might have just boiled down to founder effect and chance which lineage came to dominate in which group.

    I'm not quite sure they were all equal to begin with, however. The Q person definitely was lower status, either a captive or servant or slave. There's also a definite difference in status between the R1b and the R1a person. Now, before R1a champions get all hot and bothered, I'm not saying this was true everywhere. This is one group of three men. However, I think it's something to keep in mind as more samples come in from early periods, especially if the R1b figure has more "Teal" and that's consistent in other groupings. If a certain lineage was responsible for bringing in the animals, I would think they would have more prestige.

    Ed. I just saw your post Fire-Haired. I used to think this paper or that paper would answer all the questions. Instead, while they do answer some, they at the same time disclose an incredible complexity that none of the simplistic models we used to rely on come close to capturing. I mean, just look at it: an R1b EEF person in Neolithic Iberia, a I1 EEF person in the Central European Neolithic, a J2a Bronze Age Indo European in Europe and a "J" EHG in Karelia. It's time to stop with all the Ultra-nationalistic posturing and spinning of data, stick to science, and admit that we don't know.

    *Alan is right, they weren't basal lineages; they just probably died out.
    Last edited by Angela; 12-10-15 at 01:43.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Both the R1a and R1b from this site are probably basal forms that no longer exist today. That's why it's no surpise to see them together. R1a-M417 and R1b-L23 probably became popular in separate populations after the birth of these people. And R1a-M417 and R1b-L23 erased earlier R1b1*, R1a1*, etc. lineages from EHG that existed together all over the place.

    How is that R1a1 and R1b1 (clearly as they are labeled here) are basal forms? I think you probably mean they are dead ends with no known ancestors today?

    In that case I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    If R1b was the carrier of ANE, I don't see why it's impossible for them to have mingled with WHG in the northern stretches and ENF in the southern stretches. I think Jean Manco once posited that during their hunter-gatherer phase R1b might have wintered south of the Caspian and summered north of it. I don't remember how she arrived at that idea, but IF that was the case, it could certainly explain how some R1b got such healthy doses of "Teal" or ENF/ANE way before Maykop started influencing the steppe. By the way, women in a lot of societies like to get their sons' wives from their own relatives if possible, even if they're pretty distant geographically. In either scenario, some R1b carriers might have been "Teal" like, and some "EHG" like, and some mixed, depending on the place and time. I'm not saying that happened.
    I like that scenario and I tend to think that R1b L23 lived around Caspian Sea and this includes area North and South of Caucasus, as hunter gatherers. As such they could have easily transmit "teal" admixture to the North and they became farmers south of Caucasus and took part in Maykop Culture and expansion into Yamnaya. Probably together with J2. In this case by late Neolithic we could have some L23 being farmers from South and still some L23 being hunter gatherer from North. This definitely would mud the picture of first farmer-HG contacts in the Steppe, both being L23.
    Later in Yamnaya, L23 developed L51 mutations in South West Yamnaya and expended into Europe, and Z2103 in East Yamnaya which became Indo-Iranian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    How is that R1a1 and R1b1 (clearly as they are labeled here) are basal forms? I think you probably mean they are dead ends with no known ancestors today?

    In that case I agree.
    It makes sense, we already have seen such scenario few times, Mal'ta boy including.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If R1b was the carrier of ANE, I don't see why it's impossible for them to have mingled with WHG in the northern stretches and ENF in the southern stretches. I think Jean Manco once posited that during their hunter-gatherer phase R1b might have wintered south of the Caspian and summered north of it. I don't remember how she arrived at that idea, but IF that was the case, it could certainly explain how some R1b got such healthy doses of "Teal" or ENF/ANE way before Maykop started influencing the steppe. By the way, women in a lot of societies like to get their sons' wives from their own relatives if possible, even if they're pretty distant geographically. In either scenario, some R1b carriers might have been "Teal" like, and some "EHG" like, and some mixed, depending on the place and time. I'm not saying that happened. I'm just saying I think it might be a possibility.

    My words but peeps on Eurogenes have a hard time understanding that. They thinK R1 lineages are exclusive to EHG.

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    Slowly but surely..
    such a development, pre-PIE arrival from further East is proposed by Kortlandt in his Indo-Uralic....
    Will look for exact quote.

    Edit:
    Indo-European is a branch of Indo-Uralic which was radically transformed under the
    influence of a North Caucasian substratum when its speakers moved from the area
    north of the Caspian Sea to the area north of the Black Sea (cf. Kortlandt 2007b).
    Last edited by arvistro; 12-10-15 at 08:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Really? Just because one place is found carrying both R1a and b it means IE language! What about this Q1a guy in a mix? Also IE speaker?
    Khalinsk culture has possible connection to Yamnaya and therefore to IE genesis, but it is very far from it in cultural development. No farming yet, no domesticated horses, no wheel, no genetic mixing with farmer neighbors yet from Near East and Cucuteni, etc. Were they proto IE, definitely not. At best they were one of contributing parties.
    there are not so many possibilities
    either these were proto-IE or they went extinct later
    and some branch of Q1a may have been IE as well, remember there are 2 subclades of Q1a in southern Scandinavia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    It's totally possible R1b-L23 and R1a-M417 are from West Asia. If you think, all R1a-Z93 from ancient Steppe belongs to the same branch and not to the most popular form in India today. Maybe Yamnaya Z2103 is a differnt form than West Asian Z2103, and is an offshoot of West Asian Z2103. The highest R1b and R1b1a2 diversity is in West Asia. It's stupid IMO to assume the debate is over and there's prove they're EHG lineages and all expanded with Steppe-people.
    there have been numerous migrations into the Indus valley since 1800 BC
    R1a-Z93 was allready on the steppe before that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    I'm not quite sure what to make of this site. Even though this is probably closer to 4700 BC than to 5200 BC, and farmers and metallurgy were to both their west and south, there is not even rudimentary farming and no metal working of any kind. All they had was copper beads which from the style and the metal indicate that they traded for them with Neolithic European populations to their west. There's also no sign of the wheel and no clear indication the horses had been domesticated, much less ridden. Indo-European had words for all these things.
    Indeed they seem to be to primitive to be the proto-IE.
    Unless they were the ones that domesticated the horse.
    Your guess is as good as mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    This is where the genetics come into play. They don't seem to have any EEF. However, to varying degrees they do seem to have "teal" which we might define as "ENF plus ANE"? So, where did it come from? We only have two options...from south to north over the Caucasus or from Central Asia. If it came from the southern Caucasus wouldn't whoever carried it have brought along some farming? Later on there was some rudimentary farming in the river valleys. It's not as if the steppe was totally inhospitable to farming.
    I wonder whether the teal component could be from some N tribes coming all the way through southern Siberia from northern China with pottery.
    The Khvalynsk culture has the first pottery in Europe, and it is the Siberian type of pottery, not Middle Eastern.
    On the other hand, if the 'teal' is of N origin, how come 'teal' is 'Armenian-like'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think Jean Manco once posited that during their hunter-gatherer phase R1b might have wintered south of the Caspian and summered north of it. I don't remember how she arrived at that idea, but IF that was the case, it could certainly explain how some R1b got such healthy doses of "Teal" or ENF/ANE way before Maykop started influencing the steppe.
    Because there were some vessels on the rock drawings in Gobustan dated 8-12000 years ago.
    It's not impossible but IMO the argument is a bit flimsy.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Bit more from Mr Kortlandt "An outline of Proto-Indo-European". The combination of the first and the last sentence is intriguing.
    "In the
    following I shall give an overview of the grammar of Proto-Indo-European as it may
    have been spoken around 4000 BC in the eastern Ukraine, shortly after the ancestors
    of the Anatolians left for the Balkans (for more recent developments I refer to Beekes
    1995). This stage preceded the common innovations of the non-Anatolian languages
    such as *mer- ‘to die’ < ‘to disappear’ , *tu << *ti ‘thou’, *seʕ- ‘to satiate’ < ‘to stuff’,
    *dhug̑ʕtēr << *dhueg̑ʕtr ‘daughter’, *ʕerʕ
    w- ‘to plough’ < ‘to crush’, *meʔ ‘don’t!’ < ‘say
    no!’, *ʔek̑uos << *ʔek̑u ‘horse’ (cf. Kloekhorst 2008: 8-10). It also preceded the rise of
    the subjunctive and the optative and dialectal Indo-European developments such as
    the rise of distinctive voicedness (not shared by Tocharian), the creation of a thematic
    middle voice (cf. Kortlandt 2007a: 151-157), and the satemization of the palatovelars
    (cf. Kortlandt 2009: 43). The lexicon included words for ‘cart’, ‘wheel’, ‘axle’, ‘yoke’,
    ‘carpenter’, ‘house’, ‘vessel’, ‘to plait’, ‘to weave’, ‘to spin’, ‘to clothe’, ‘ox’, ‘sheep’,
    ‘goat’, ‘horse’, ‘swine’, ‘cow’, ‘dog’, ‘to herd’, ‘to milk’, ‘butter’, ‘wool’, ‘lamb’, ‘gold’,
    ‘silver’, ‘copper’, ‘ore’, but not for ‘donkey’, ‘cat’, ‘chicken’, ‘duck’, ‘field’, ‘to sow’, ‘to
    mow’, ‘to mill’, ‘to plough’, ‘iron’, ‘lead’, ‘tin’. There was no agricultural or
    metallurgical vocabulary at this stage."

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Slowly but surely..
    such a development, pre-PIE arrival from further East is proposed by Kortlandt in his Indo-Uralic....
    Will look for exact quote.

    Edit:
    Indo-European is a branch of Indo-Uralic which was radically transformed under the
    influence of a North Caucasian substratum when its speakers moved from the area
    north of the Caspian Sea to the area north of the Black Sea (cf. Kortlandt 2007b).


    Just that the substratum in Uralic seems to be predominantly if not excliuvely Indo Iranian in Origin. And there seems to be no Proto Uralic admixture in PIE at all.
    On the other hand there is a real Proto Kartvelian substrata in PIE. What means Proto Indo European can't have evolved in close contact zone to Proto Uralic but it had to have evolved in close contact zone with Kartvelian.

    It's allot more complicated than that. Another theory is, that Proto IE are Central Asian derived moving up on the eastern shores of the Caspian to Samara and there down to the Steppes which would explain how they got this weird EHG-Teal aDNA and y-mtdna combination.

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    You are mixing up things, genetic relationship is not loanwords...
    "The Indo-Uralic elements of Indo-European include pronouns, case endings, verbal endings, participles and derivational suffixes."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    t's allot more complicated than that. Another theory is, that Proto IE are Central Asian derived moving up on the eastern shores of the Caspian to Samara and there down to the Steppes which would explain how they got this weird EHG-Teal aDNA and y-mtdna combination.
    It is not "another" theory, it is THE Indo-Uralic theory basics.

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    Actually this Indo-Uralic theory gives me following impression:
    We have "super cool" youth in Latvia who speak kind of Latvian but using English terms. For example, "es walkoju uz worku" (I am walking to the work).
    Es, -oju, uz, -u those are Latvian. Walk, work of course is English.
    In our case Latvian = Indo-Uralic and English = North Caucasian.

    So, I offer a new view on this PIE problem. They were marginal community of immigrants from the East on its way to 'North-Caucasianisation' under pressure of their more advanced/populous neighbors, but then they got a <nuclear bomb> and became masters of their age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Actually this Indo-Uralic theory gives me following impression:
    We have "super cool" youth in Latvia who speak kind of Latvian but using English terms. For example, "es walkoju uz worku" (I am walking to the work).
    Es, -oju, uz, -u those are Latvian. Walk, work of course is English.
    In our case Latvian = Indo-Uralic and English = North Caucasian.

    So, I offer a new view on this PIE problem. They were marginal community of immigrants from the East on its way to 'North-Caucasianisation' under pressure of their more advanced/populous neighbors, but then they got a <nuclear bomb> and became masters of their age.
    And in 5,000 years English will be a small-language family and everyone will be speaking Latvian :)

  24. #24
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    David Anthony, "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" (on PIE origins), writes this about Khvalynsk culture:

    https://books.google.pl/books?id=0FD...ulture&f=false

    Khvalynsk was likely one of early PIE cultures, together with Sredny Stog and Repin (Repin = ancestral to Yamnaya).

    Quote Originally Posted by alan
    On the other hand there is a real Proto Kartvelian substrata in PIE. What means Proto Indo European can't have evolved in close contact zone to Proto Uralic but it had to have evolved in close contact zone with Kartvelian.
    Actually, David Anthony wrote that PIEs had close relations with Proto-Kartvelians, but even closer with Proto-Uralics:

    "(...) The Semitic and Caucasian vocabulary that was borrowed into Proto-Indo-European through Kartvelian therefore contains roots that belonged to some Pre-Kartvelian or Proto-Kartvelian language in the Caucasus. This language had relations, through unrecorded intermediaries, with Proto-Indo-European on one side and Proto-Semitic on the other. That is not a particularly close lexical relationship. If Proto-Kartvelian was spoken on the south side of the North Caucasus Mountain range, as seems likely, it might have been spoken by people associated with the Early Transcaucasian Culture (also known as the Kura-Araxes culture), dated about 3500–2200 BCE. They could have had indirect relations with the speakers of Proto-Indo-European through the Maikop culture of the North Caucasus region. Many experts agree that Proto-Indo-European shared some features with a language ancestral to Kartvelian but not necessarily through a direct face-to-face link. Relations with the speakers of Proto-Uralic were closer. (...)"

    This suggests that Proto-Indo-Europeans lived in areas located between Proto-Uralics and Proto-Kartvelians.

    Proto-Kartvelians lived in the Caucasus region, right? But do we know where did Proto-Uralics actually live ???

    Did Proto-Uralics live somewhere close to the Ural Mountains, or in a completely different place?



  25. #25
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    Relation with Uralic was genetic, it does not mean they had to live close...
    The skeleton of the language was Indo-Uralic, probably legacy of those folk from their Eastern motherland. Same motherland from which Uralic arrived later. North of Caspian as per Kortlandt.
    Like in my Latvian - English example, those were Indo-Uralic people on their way to 'North-Caucasianisation' (for lack of better term)..
    Using Indo-Uralic pronouns, case endings, verbal endings, participles and derivational suffixes but having "heterogenetic" vocabulary. Just like in my Latvian - English example.

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