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I don't think Fire-Haired was saying that the Ydna found at this site is the direct ancestor of the later lineages we find on the steppe. I think he's saying that these might be lineages* which died out, and that the ancestors of the lineages that later spread from the steppe probably existed elsewhere. He can correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not quite sure what to make of this site. Even though this is probably closer to 4700 BC than to 5200 BC, and farmers and metallurgy were to both their west and south, there is not even rudimentary farming and no metal working of any kind. All they had was copper beads which from the style and the metal indicate that they traded for them with Neolithic European populations to their west. There's also no sign of the wheel and no clear indication the horses had been domesticated, much less ridden. Indo-European had words for all these things.
Looking at it from a purely language perspective, according to the David Anthony theory isn't the earliest form of PIE (Anatolian) supposed to leave the steppe around 4000 BC? While it didn't have a word for wheel, it did have words for farming, which these people didn't have. So, I think I agree with LeBrok that these people may have fed into "Yamnaya" but I would doubt that this is any type of Indo-European group.
There are also interesting things to glean from their culture and their genetics.
They did have domesticated cattle and sheep. This is important, because they had to be imported from elsewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but David Anthony hypothesized that this was the first major change in the life of these hunter-gatherers and that they imported the animals from their Neolithic (EEF like) neighbors to the west.
This is where the genetics come into play. They don't seem to have any EEF. However, to varying degrees they do seem to have "teal" which we might define as "ENF plus ANE"? So, where did it come from? We only have two options...from south to north over the Caucasus or from Central Asia. If it came from the southern Caucasus wouldn't whoever carried it have brought along some farming? Later on there was some rudimentary farming in the river valleys. It's not as if the steppe was totally inhospitable to farming.
Let's say for arguments' sake (could people please not take my speculations as to what could have happened for dogma according to Angela as to what did happen?) that it all came from women from the Caucasus or south of it, and because the steppe was very sparsely populated some limited amount of bride exchange or raiding or selective advantage of some sort quickly changed them autosomally.In that case perhaps the hunter gatherers only wanted animals (along with the women) because it was an easier "sell" than crop farming.
On the other hand, if the admixture came from groups in central Asia, groups which were ANE heavy and also farmer heavy but who had abandoned crop farming in inhospitable terrain, they would have only domesticated animals to exchange.
Now, I don't know what yDNA those south Caucasus or more Central Asian like groups might have carried. Maybe J2a? However, I do have to mention that I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that R1b groups might have straddled the Caucasus and Caspian.
If R1b was the carrier of ANE, I don't see why it's impossible for them to have mingled with WHG in the northern stretches and ENF in the southern stretches. I think Jean Manco once posited that during their hunter-gatherer phase R1b might have wintered south of the Caspian and summered north of it. I don't remember how she arrived at that idea, but IF that was the case, it could certainly explain how some R1b got such healthy doses of "Teal" or ENF/ANE way before Maykop started influencing the steppe. By the way, women in a lot of societies like to get their sons' wives from their own relatives if possible, even if they're pretty distant geographically. In either scenario, some R1b carriers might have been "Teal" like, and some "EHG" like, and some mixed, depending on the place and time. I'm not saying that happened. I'm just saying I think it might be a possibility.
One thing that is pretty clear is that there were mixed groups of R1b/R1a/Q on the steppe. Later on it might have just boiled down to founder effect and chance which lineage came to dominate in which group.
I'm not quite sure they were all equal to begin with, however. The Q person definitely was lower status, either a captive or servant or slave. There's also a definite difference in status between the R1b and the R1a person. Now, before R1a champions get all hot and bothered, I'm not saying this was true everywhere. This is one group of three men. However, I think it's something to keep in mind as more samples come in from early periods, especially if the R1b figure has more "Teal" and that's consistent in other groupings. If a certain lineage was responsible for bringing in the animals, I would think they would have more prestige.
Ed. I just saw your post Fire-Haired. I used to think this paper or that paper would answer all the questions. Instead, while they do answer some, they at the same time disclose an incredible complexity that none of the simplistic models we used to rely on come close to capturing. I mean, just look at it: an R1b EEF person in Neolithic Iberia, a I1 EEF person in the Central European Neolithic, a J2a Bronze Age Indo European in Europe and a "J" EHG in Karelia. It's time to stop with all the Ultra-nationalistic posturing and spinning of data, stick to science, and admit that we don't know.
*Alan is right, they weren't basal lineages; they just probably died out.
Last edited by Angela; 12-10-15 at 01:43.
Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci
Volga Steppe Khvalynsk culture (Copper Age) from 5200-4000 BC, R1a and R1b together!
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Originally Posted by Finalise
