Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 88

Thread: Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations

  1. #51
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    1 members found this post helpful.
    It isn't often that I and David agree 100% but this time definitely. The papers usage of wording is so confusing and they often contradict not only themselves but also known science(Northeast Europeans being close to East Eurasians than mainland Europeans really?) It really seems like those "Russian" scientist try to find as hard as possible a Siberian proxy population which beats Amerindians in their ANE scores.

    They call the Mansi, not even something like "Proto Mansi" but modern Mansi ANE source population. They claim the first ANE came in combination with East Eurasian admixture but completely ignore the fact that Mal'ta didn't show any affinities to East Eurasian components. Not only that they also failed to explain how there is ANE in Yamna, Corded Ware and SHG without any evidence of East Eurasian admixture.

    We have in the Near East populations such as Assyrians with zero East Eurasian admixture but over 13% ANE. Those are too many factors speaking against their Mansi theory.

    Also if you take a look at Mansi y and mtDNA they have like 55% West Eurasian mtDNA and >25% yDNA.

    Mansi as a Ugric speaking population (whoms ethnogenesis by the way can't be older than some thousand years) are said to be ancestral to Mal'ta(20000 years) according to this paper.

    Sorry but I stopped reading about it here. If anything Mansi represents a Population mix of a ANE like group which was absorbed into an East Eurasian like group.

    The point is that Mal'ta predates Mansi and its genetic components are much closer to each other (as it should be) however with Mansi we are dealing with a population which is, a two way mix of East Eurasian and ANE admixture, Those components are quite distant. Based on fst distance and ancestral tree ANE and UHG/WHG are allot closer to each other anyways. So there is absolutely no way that ANE might have arisen, together with a component it is more distinct from, in a modern population which obviously has mixed ancestry.


    Last edited by Alan; 22-10-15 at 13:39.

  2. #52
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    That most modern populations with ANE display some Mongoloid type features doesn't necessary mean it is connect to their ANE ancestry. More rather that Mongoloid type ancestry took over former ANE land, which obviously seems to be correct if you look at the history of these regions.

    Contrary if you just pay close attention and compare the "East Eurasian" groups with more ANE to East Eurasian populations with less, one thing falls into the eye. Those groups with more ANE display more of the "pseudo" Caucasoid features than those with non or less.

    Didn't most of the people and even scientist bet and said that the Kennewick man is going to turn out as West Eurasian autosomally because physically he looked so Caucasoid? Turns out he is closest match to Amerindians. Why does an ancient Amerindian individual looks so much Caucasian compared to modern East Eurasians? Is it a because of their Han like ancestry they share with East Eurasians or B because of their ANE ancestry they also share with West Eurasian populations? Isn't the answer obvious? Just take a look at modern Amerindians, why is it that even isolated Amerindian groups and even Native Americans of old images look to have much more Caucasoid physical features (high nose bridge no Epicanthic fold), DESPITE ~40-50% of their ancestry being actually East Eurasians, compared to modern East Eurasians? Now imagine a full blooded ANE population, Is this also just coincidence? Obviously regarding ANE , we are dealing here with a predominantly West Eurasian like population which was mixed or absorbed by a Han like group in most of Eurasia. Alone this is enough for me to come to the conclusion that Mansi can never be a source population of ANE. But even them display signficantly more Caucasoid features compared to Han Chinese for example. This is no coincidence but fits with their East and West Eurasian mixed origin based on y and mtDNA as well aDNA (ANE vs Han Chinese like ancestry)






    Older Mansi People

  3. #53
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    Since I realized that out of two Karelian EHGs one was Uralic looking person (the anthro description of sample that turned out R1a) and the other was (proto) Europoid (description of sample that turned out J*), I am no more sure if there is a big link between autosomal make-up and looks.

  4. #54
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Since I realized that out of two Karelian EHGs one was Uralic looking person (the anthro description of sample that turned out R1a) and the other was (proto) Europoid (description of sample that turned out J*), I am no more sure if there is a big link between autosomal make-up and looks.


    That is true, we have Jomon like people who are East Eurasian but display Caucasoid features. But than this is why I don't understand why people are using some phsyical features in modern populations to pin point the origin of ANE. Why should ANE be East Eurasian just based on Mansi if on fst Distance and the origin tree ANE is brother to UHG/WHG?

    Where is the logic? But than if you seriously compare EE with ANE and EE without ANE a trend Caucasoid trend among the ANE admixed groups get's visible. I don't think this is coincidence. And I also don't think ANE reprsents Uber Caucasoid features just like I don't think WHG does (but ANE even slightly less) Just that I think they didn't look EE.

    This is why in the past I wrote that ANE probably looked like some Kalash individuals who display "pseudo" Amerindian featueres. At the end of the day Kalash have like 35-40% ANE. They have slightly less than Amerindians and Mansi but than their other part is mostly UHG like which is still closer to ANE than EE anyways. I don't know why they are often ignored in these kind of studies. And I bet my last money that ancient samples from the Kalash region and South_Central Asia in general, prior to the farming expansion will look predominantly ANE.


    This is how I imagine proto ANE groups looked like. Kalash look pred. West Eurasian but display very typical "pseudo" Amerindian features.



  5. #55
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    I guess, it is because y-dna tree goes like this under "F":
    G is first to branch off. Then H.
    Then IJ.
    Then K
    Then K(xLT) goes into brothers NO and P (Q, R).

    Now for P to be closer to IJ than to NO, we need NO to move somewhere far, isolate and drift alone, whilst P would stay close to IJ and interact with them. Probably this is what happened if you say ANE is closer to WHG than <what three letters I can use for East Eurasian?>.

  6. #56
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    29-01-14
    Posts
    157
    Points
    5,341
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,341, Level: 21
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 209
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    I5a

    Ethnic group
    Finnish
    Country: Finland



    [we need NO to move somewhere far, isolate and drift alone>.[/QUOTE]

    Arvistro, so, in your opinion, where is this isolated place to which NO went to hide in order to obtain these hideous features, and from whom did NO get these features or do you think that they happened because of a strange series of mutations?

    In my opinion NO has nothing to do with the so called East Asian in Amerinds and Eskimos.

  7. #57
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    [we need NO to move somewhere far, isolate and drift alone>.
    Arvistro, so, in your opinion, where is this isolated place to which NO went to hide in order to obtain these hideous features, and from whom did NO get these features or do you think that they happened because of a strange series of mutations? [/QUOTE]
    I don't know where they hid. Somewhere South-East Asia I guess. That is if they did hide :)
    As to other question. It could be either mutations or something else. Don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    In my opinion NO has nothing to do with the so called East Asian in Amerinds and Eskimos.
    I am very open minded here. Only reason I went for it was because "NO" is very popular in nations that have East Asian. Like, for example, 90% in Han Chinese.

    So, who then has something to do with so called East Asian in Amerinds and Eskimos and East Asia?

  8. #58
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    I guess, it is because y-dna tree goes like this under "F":
    G is first to branch off. Then H.
    Then IJ.
    Then K
    Then K(xLT) goes into brothers NO and P (Q, R).

    Now for P to be closer to IJ than to NO, we need NO to move somewhere far, isolate and drift alone, whilst P would stay close to IJ and interact with them. Probably this is what happened if you say ANE is closer to WHG than <what three letters I can use for East Eurasian?>.
    Haplogroups do not correlate always perfectly with aDNA. They can only give you a glimpse of the reality. We have C subclades which are UHG/WHG and C subclades which are East Eurasian.

    The tree I posted is from Lazaridis paper. Lazaridis team and even other scientist wrote that ANE is closest to UHG/WHG Here labeled as "West Eurasian". Allot of Haplogroups are more than 40 to 50 thousand years old. So should there be any doubt?

  9. #59
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    Genetiker gives info that Ust Ishim guy was already K(x LT) - umbrella for NO + P. And it was on its way to NO.
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014...-ishim-genome/
    Ust’-Ishim was male. His Y-SNP calls and mt-SNP calls confirm the published findings that he belonged to Y haplogroup K(xLT) and mitochondrial haplogroup R. Ust’-Ishim also had positive calls for Z4842/M2308 and CTS11667, two of the seven mutations that define Y haplogroup X. Haplogroup X is ancestral to haplogroup NO, the main Mongoloid Y haplogroup.

    Ust Ishim guy was like 45,000 years ago and was located in Syberia, Russia. North of Kazakhstan, Omsk region. Y-dna K(xLT) on its way to NO.
    Mal'ta guy was 24,000 years ago and was located in Syberia, Russia. Further East, Irkutsk region. Y-dna R*.

    That gives plenty of time for a chaos of y-dna lines moving in all directions :)

  10. #60
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    29-01-14
    Posts
    157
    Points
    5,341
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,341, Level: 21
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 209
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    I5a

    Ethnic group
    Finnish
    Country: Finland



    In my opinion, this idea of isolation is rubbish and reminds me of ET movies.

    Native American yDNA is Q and C and these haplogroups or either of them must have carried ENA. There may have been an extinct "paleo-Melanesian" ENA yDNA which we may never discover, but it is also possible that the rare Peruvian C is a paleo-Melanesian remnant.

    The Siberian paper says that "Nenets appear as an early diverging group related to other European populations. The tree model suggests that 43% (95% CI: 38-47%) of the Western Siberian ancestry can be attributed to an admixture with a group related to modern-day Evenki people. Furthermore, Nenets share 38% (95% CI: 31-46%) of their ancestry with a group related to Even people. Consistent with this prediction, we observed particularly high affinity between Mansi and Evenki as well as between Nenets and Even people based on the D-statistic."

    So, in this context, also Even and Evenk yDNA should be considered.
    All Evenks (127): yDNA C-M217 97/127, 76%; N1b 18/127, 14%; N1c 18/127 14%; I 5/127, 4%
    All Even (89): yDNA C-M217 46/89, 52%; N1b 13/89 14.6%; N1c 30/89, 34%
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0083570

    As Uralic groups do not have any C-M217, there must have been a flow of N1c and N1b to Evens and Evenks, and as Evens and Evenks have almost entirely North East Asian mtDNA, this flow must have been mostly male-mediated. IMO, N1c and N1b spread from the forest Volga Ural to the East; at that time everybody in the forest Volga Ural surely carried a portion of ENA, maybe at 20-30% (including Karitiana).
    I repeat that ENA people are very varied and it is completely unscientific and stupid to claim that certain undesirable ENA features could be "externalized" on NO-carrying men as if these traits could in some mysterious way be glued on yDNA.

  11. #61
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The tree I posted is from Lazaridis paper. Lazaridis team and even other scientist wrote that ANE is closest to UHG/WHG Here labeled as "West Eurasian". Allot of Haplogroups are more than 40 to 50 thousand years old. Are you doubting this?
    Do you have some cross distance estimates for ANE, EEF, WHG, SSA and so on?

  12. #62
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Genetiker gives info that Ust Ishim guy was already K(x LT) - umbrella for NO + P. And it was on its way to NO.
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014...-ishim-genome/
    Ust’-Ishim was male. His Y-SNP calls and mt-SNP calls confirm the published findings that he belonged to Y haplogroup K(xLT) and mitochondrial haplogroup R. Ust’-Ishim also had positive calls for Z4842/M2308 and CTS11667, two of the seven mutations that define Y haplogroup X. Haplogroup X is ancestral to haplogroup NO, the main Mongoloid Y haplogroup.

    Ust Ishim guy was like 45,000 years ago and was located in Syberia, Russia. North of Kazakhstan, Omsk region. Y-dna K(xLT) on its way to NO.
    Mal'ta guy was 24,000 years ago and was located in Syberia, Russia. Further East, Irkutsk region. Y-dna R*.

    That gives plenty of time for a chaos of y-dna lines moving in all directions :)
    The more you move up the yDNA tree the closer the autosomal components will get, that is the only logical explanation. Since at the end of the day all Haplogroups have a common ancestor. So must the aDNA components.

    That means If you ever find an ancient IJK individual, this individual will be something like ANE/UHGWHG/East Eurasian AND significant Basal Eurasian, which is the non shifted ancestry it still shares with the same ancestor of 'H' and 'G'. And on the other side G and H will be Basal Eurasian with strong UHGWHG or ANE ancestry because it is so close to IJK on the ancestral tree.

    This is why we have Mal'ta R*, which is just one step away from P*, that shows autosomaly most ancestry to West Eurasian with 2/3 and strong affinity to Amerindians with 1/3 (who are mostly Q Haplogroups which is the brotherclade of R by the way). Therefore if R Haplogroups close to Basal form show affinities to Amerindians and even Southeast Asians I am expecting that basal Q Haplogroups will also show strong affinities to West Eurasian type ancestry. It is not necessary admixture it is simply ancient shared ancestry.

    This is why we are seing Basal EurasianaDNA in Kostenki who is NO. It is not admixture it is basically the remnant of ancient common ancestry.

  13. #63
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,395
    Points
    48,528
    Level
    68
    Points: 48,528, Level: 68
    Level completed: 13%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 42.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Haplogroups do not correlate always perfectly with aDNA. They can only give you a glimpse of the reality. We have C subclades which are UHG/WHG and C subclades which are East Eurasian.

    The tree I posted is from Lazaridis paper. Lazaridis team and even other scientist wrote that ANE is closest to UHG/WHG Here labeled as "West Eurasian". Allot of Haplogroups are more than 40 to 50 thousand years old. So should there be any doubt?
    what is UHG ?

  14. #64
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I repeat that ENA people are very varied and it is completely unscientific and stupid to claim that certain undesirable ENA features could be "externalized" on NO-carrying men as if these traits could in some mysterious way be glued on yDNA.
    So, to not externalize them on NO-carrying men, you are externalizing them on C carrying men :)))

  15. #65
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,852
    Points
    310,653
    Level
    100
    Points: 310,653, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Since I realized that out of two Karelian EHGs one was Uralic looking person (the anthro description of sample that turned out R1a) and the other was (proto) Europoid (description of sample that turned out J*), I am no more sure if there is a big link between autosomal make-up and looks.
    There has to be some link. I think the problem comes with expecting that there is going to be some perfect correspondence between percentage of a certain autosomal component and "phenotype".

    It doesn't work that way because the alleles that determine phenotype are a very small set compared to the whole, and after a lot of admixture can become detached from the other alleles with which they were originally associated.

    I see it all the time with African-Americans. Years ago I worked with a Jamaican woman who married a "white" American. Her daughter looked just like her and unmistakably African-American, the son looked like what Americans would see as "Hispanic" or mixed, and the daughter looked totally "white". It caused her more than a few problems in terms of identity issues, unfortunately. That's why in the past in these kinds of biracial families one child could "pass", but the others couldn't.

    As regards ANE, didn't Russian scientists see what they called "Mongoloid like" features in Mal'ta, who is how we define ANE? IF that's true, then ANE type people might have carried those traits from the very beginning. For all we know those kinds of phenotypical traits might have been widespread but in varying degrees in all the ancient North Eurasian and ENA populations. Who says that they specifically originated in the Han, for example? That's a population that formed later where a certain combination of traits became fixed. I also don't know how we could possibly "pin" it on a certain y or mtDna. Those don't carry phenotypical alleles. It must have arisen in a group carrying certain uniparental markers, but I don't know how we'd go back and figure out which ones.

    We also have the intriguing appearance of EDAR in the SHG. That might have been one of those widespread traits which were selected against in Europe but selected for, for some reason, in East Asia. Or, it might just be a question of drift. Still, who brought it? When?

    Subsequent "Mongoloid" gene flow in quasi historical times is a totally separate issue. We're talking here about gene flow long before that time.

    What I don't understand (and this is totally separate from "phentype" issues) is how the Admixture runs and other statistical analyses can show admixture of a "Mansi-like" population into the EHG (and they do sometimes call it a "Mansi-like" population), the Mansi are by definition both West Eurasian and East Eurasian as those terms are commonly understood today, and at the same time we have analyses that show EHG have no ENA affinity.

    Perhaps someone can refresh my recollection as to whether Lazaridis et al or Haak et al or Allentoft et al, produced stats showing that ANE had no ENA affinity, or whether that was done by internet people.

    For what it's worth, I don't find the reconstructions of the Jomon particularly "Caucasian" looking.


    They look more like Polynesians:


    Whoa Nellie! Did I miss something? Who said they're "undesirable" traits? I guess I'd better go back and read the intervening posts. :)
    Last edited by Angela; 22-10-15 at 21:25.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  16. #66
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    @Angela, thats just a reconstruction but people who are said to be descend of the Jomon as far as I remember, such as the Ainu despite being mixed with the Yaoyi have often very Caucasoid like features and they are autosomally East Eurasian.




    About the Mal'ta individual, Russian scientists assumed based on the location the individual was found (East Siberia/Mongolia) and the cranial (round/broad headed) that the individual must be mongoloid. Yet they didn't had any DNA back than. Reconstructions without DNA are always just to a point accurate. The cranial form of the individual flat or thin nose, everything else, such as if caucasoid or mongoloid broad faced, caucasoid or mongoloid wide nosed, eye color and hair colore are based on the artists imagination if their is no DNA to hand. We had this issue already various times, even with the Kennewick individual which some of it's earlier reconstructions looked absolutely Caucasoid but modern reconstructions look more borderline. All that can be said from the cranial is, that it is a round/broad headed individual just like most WHG cranials and East Eurasian cranials. With other words the individual could be anything from Kalash looking.
    http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slide...an-chitral.jpg

    to
    East European looking
    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...7&d=1259868782

    to mongoloid looking
    http://oi61.tinypic.com/2dtznkp.jpg


    But don't you think it is too much of an coincidence that even Amerindians with the highest ANE ancestry have more Caucasoid features compared to EE?


    @bicicleur

    UHG is meant to be the Proto ancestor of WHG and the WHG like ancestry in EEF.

  17. #67
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    I dont think it is possible at all for ANE to lack ENA, since ENA is ANE + smthg? So modelling ANE as combination of something else it should come up as partly ENA by definition.

    edit: unless I am totally mistaken. I have investigated very little in ENA to say the least.

  18. #68
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,395
    Points
    48,528
    Level
    68
    Points: 48,528, Level: 68
    Level completed: 13%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 42.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post



    Whoa Nellie! Did I miss something? Who said they're "undesirable" traits? I guess I'd better go back and read the intervening posts. :)
    and then you just saw his face, you even didn't have the oportunity to look further down

  19. #69
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    I dont think it is possible at all for ANE to lack ENA, since ENA is ANE + smthg? So modelling ANE as combination of something else it should come up as partly ENA by definition.

    edit: unless I am totally mistaken. I have investigated very little in ENA to say the least.
    I have yet to see ENA showing any ANE. That is just some rumor I have seen some people claim and I don't know on what they base it. The genetic break up of the Mal'ta genome was something like 30% North Euro, 30% Caucaso_Gedrosia(more Gedrosia), 30% Amerindian and ~10% ASI/Southeast Asian like but even this ASI/Southeast Asian can be explain by a very Kalash like population. Since they have some ~20% ASI.

    With other words Mal'ta can be explained as ~60-70% Kalash like and 30-40% Amerindian like.

    East Eurasian populations with no known West Eurasian, ASI/SEA or Amerindian ancestry score noisy percentage of ANE. Mongols score some significant ANE just because they have some West Eurasian ancestry but even them score only as much ANE as Assyrians! A population now living where Mal'ta was found has only as much ANE as Assyrians, Armenians and some Levantines, Imagine that!!

    So how on earth can ANE have anything close to do with modern EE ancestry? I am not talking about more "distant" relationship of the components, obviously there is a relationship between ANE/UHGWHG and East Eurasian. But ENA does not contain any significant ANE.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...t#gid=74932529

  20. #70
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    29-01-14
    Posts
    157
    Points
    5,341
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,341, Level: 21
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 209
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    I5a

    Ethnic group
    Finnish
    Country: Finland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    So, to not externalize them on NO-carrying men, you are externalizing them on C carrying men :)))
    Only in part! :), because I wrote that people in forest Volga Ural may have carried 20-30% ENA (including Karitiana)

  21. #71
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,852
    Points
    310,653
    Level
    100
    Points: 310,653, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    and then you just saw his face, you even didn't have the oportunity to look further down
    That was the whole picture. Is there another full figure picture of him? Will I be embarrassed if I go looking for it?

    I think I'll pass. If full blood Hawaiians are any indication, he's typically Polynesian looking, and I'll leave it at that.

  22. #72
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,852
    Points
    310,653
    Level
    100
    Points: 310,653, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    @Angela, thats just a reconstruction but people who are said to be descend of the Jomon as far as I remember, such as the Ainu despite being mixed with the Yaoyi have often very Caucasoid like features and they are autosomally East Eurasian.




    About the Mal'ta individual, Russian scientists assumed based on the location the individual was found (East Siberia/Mongolia) and the cranial (round/broad headed) that the individual must be mongoloid. Yet they didn't had any DNA back than. Reconstructions without DNA are always just to a point accurate. The cranial form of the individual flat or thin nose, everything else, such as if caucasoid or mongoloid broad faced, caucasoid or mongoloid wide nosed, eye color and hair colore are based on the artists imagination if their is no DNA to hand. We had this issue already various times, even with the Kennewick individual which some of it's earlier reconstructions looked absolutely Caucasoid but modern reconstructions look more borderline. All that can be said from the cranial is, that it is a round/broad headed individual just like most WHG cranials and East Eurasian cranials. With other words the individual could be anything from Kalash looking.
    http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slide...an-chitral.jpg

    to
    East European looking
    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...7&d=1259868782

    to mongoloid looking
    http://oi61.tinypic.com/2dtznkp.jpg


    But don't you think it is too much of an coincidence that even Amerindians with the highest ANE ancestry have more Caucasoid features compared to EE?


    @bicicleur

    UHG is meant to be the Proto ancestor of WHG and the WHG like ancestry in EEF.
    The Ainu, like any other modern population, are the result of various admixtures. They are not an unchanged relict of the Jomon. You can see the variation in the pictures you posted. Looking, for example, at the gentleman in the last picture, he doesn't look SSA, and he doesn't look modern Northeast Asian, but neither does he look Caucasian to me. As I said above, he looks much like what I would expect of a group that moved north from somewhere around southeast Asia.

    However, these are all subjective determinations, so opinions will differ.

    My main confusion is how can Admixture and other statistics posted in the paper and in the Supplement show influx of a Mansi like population into the EHG if EHG has no ENA affinities.

    I was hoping someone had already checked all the stats and I wouldn't have to go back and pore over tables in Lazardis, Haak and Allentoft. :)
    Last edited by Angela; 22-10-15 at 20:38.

  23. #73
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ok, I confess I thought ENA is for something Syberian and then there was something else for Han. I was wrong and ENA is Eastern Non-African and apparently is an umbrella for everything Eurasian that does not fit EEF/WHG/ANE.

    Ok, actually ENA is usually defined as Han, so them not having much of other admixtures including ANE is not much of a surprise

    If, as a thought experiment, I defined East European (EAS) as Lithuanian, then I might find that Lithuanians are >90% EAS and lack WHG (EEF, ANE...) in any significant level :)

    p.s.
    Potentially I might even find that Belorussians, Latvians, Estonians and Poles lack WHG (EEF, ANE..) in any over noise levels too... since most of them would be eaten by EAS component.
    Maybe some Southern European folk would show some combination of extra non-noise EEF in addition to EAS. But then you might say it is just because they have later admixture from Near East...

    So, in general I am not convinced about Han not having ANE.

  24. #74
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,395
    Points
    48,528
    Level
    68
    Points: 48,528, Level: 68
    Level completed: 13%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 42.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Ainu, like any other modern population, are the result of various admixtures. They are not an unchanged relict of the Jomon. You can see the variation in the pictures you posted. Looking, for example, at the gentleman in the last picture, he doesn't look SSA, and he doesn't look modern Northeast Asian, but neither does he look Caucasian to me. As I said above, he looks much like what I would expect of a group that moved north from somewhere around southeast Asia.

    However, these are all subjective determinations, so opinions will differ.
    Genetic testing has shown them to belong mainly to Y-haplogroup D-M55.[50] Y-DNA haplogroup D2 is found frequently throughout the Japanese Archipelagoincluding Okinawa. The only places outside of Japan in which Y-haplogroup D is common are Tibet and the Andaman Islands in the Indian Ocean.[51]



    1862 illustration of Ainu (left) and Nivkhs


    In a study by Tajima et al. (2004), two out of a sample of sixteen (or 12.5%) Ainu men have been found to belong toHaplogroup C-M217, which is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup among the indigenous populations of Siberia andMongolia.[50] Hammer et al. (2006) have tested a sample of four Ainu men and have found that one of them belongs to haplogroup C-M217.[52] Some researchers have speculated that this minority of Haplogroup C-M217 carriers among the Ainu may reflect a certain degree of unidirectional genetic influence from the Nivkhs, a traditionally nomadic people of northern Sakhalin and the adjacent mainland, with whom the Ainu have long-standing cultural interactions.[50]

    D-M55[edit]

    Found with high frequency among Ainu, Japanese, and Ryukyuans.[citation needed] Also found with sporadically Micronesians, and Timorese and 0% to 0.2% among Han Chinese in Jiangsu .





    It seems D-M55 is almost exclusively Japanese
    IMO D-M55 was a tribe who used cooking pottery in the Yangtze delta that moved to the then uninhabited Japan 20 ka.
    D-M55 is still the main component of HG Ainu who were practically the only inhabitants of Japan till the arrival of Yayoi rice farmers (Haplogroup O-47z) 2.3 ka

  25. #75
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    Ok, you are right
    Similarly, we find autosomal evidence that MA-1 is basal to modern-day western Eurasians and genetically closely related to modern-day Native Americans, with no close affinity to east Asians.(Upper Palaeolithic Siberian genome reveals dual ancestry of Native Americans)
    ____________________________
    But I still would like to see numbers. Distances of ANE to WHG, EEF, ENA, SSA... To see how big is the difference.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •