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Thread: Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations

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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations

    Reconstructing Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations

    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421


    Abstract

    "Siberia and Western Russia are home to over 40 culturally and linguistically diverse indigenous ethnic groups. Yet, genetic variation of peoples from this region is largely uncharacterized. We present whole-genome sequencing data from 28 individuals belonging to 14 distinct indigenous populations from that region. We combine these datasets with additional 32 modern-day and 15 ancient human genomes to build and compare autosomal, Y-DNA and mtDNA trees. Our results provide new links between modern and ancient inhabitants of Eurasia. Siberians share 38% of ancestry with descendants of the 45,000-year-old Ust-Ishim people, who were previously believed to have no modern-day descendants. Western Siberians trace 57% of their ancestry to the Ancient North Eurasians, represented by the 24,000-year-old Siberian Malta boy. In addition, Siberians admixtures are present in lineages represented by Eastern European hunter-gatherers from Samara, Karelia, Hungary and Sweden (from 8,000-6,600 years ago), as well as Yamnaya culture people (5,300-4,700 years ago) and modern-day northeastern Europeans. These results provide new evidence of ancient gene flow from Siberia into Europe."

    Ust'Ishim was yDna NO

    There's so much in the data figures it's going to take a while to digest it all.

    Data Supplements:
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421.figures-only

    Data Figures:
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2015/10/18/029421.DC1/029421-2.pdf



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    Thanks.
    I checked the Supplementaries and must admit capitulated unconditionally to those graphs and other info. I need an interpretor :)

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    Interesting paper, but I would still like to get more ancient yDNA from Northern Eurasia:
    Up today we have only the following:
    Ust Ishim, c. 40 000 BP, NO
    Ma1, 24 000 BP, yDNA R
    Afontova Gora, 17 000 BP yDNA Q (?)
    Saqqaq 4000 BP, Q
    Karelian Mesolithic, 7000 BP, yDNA J and R1a
    Bronze Age Altai, yDNA Q

    The analyses on modern Siberians have shown that the oldest yDNA’s in Siberia are Q, C and N in this order (R has been excluded). Therefore, I would abstain from saying that there was a migration of N from North East Asia to Europe as long as Ust Ishim is the only evidence. I really hope that some geneticists would analyze Siberian and North Eurasian ancient burials in order to clarify the yDNA history of Mesolithic Siberia. In order to understand the development of West Siberian genetic ancestry, we would really be a lot wiser if someone analyzed Baraba Forest Steppe yDNA.

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    Thank you for this latest paper. As you can see even according to them there was East into West migration and not vice versa.

    I like their map very much!




    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...1.figures-only



    According to them the folks (GREEN European ancestors) from the Iranian Plateau migrated into Yamnaya via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan, before they later Indo-Europized the rest of Europe.

    Like I said a couple of days ago it's possible that those folks were R1a and arrived in the stepped via the eastern side of the Caspian Sea, while R1b from the Iranian Plaeau arirved in Yamnaya via the Maykop civilization.


    Both R1a and R1b are from the Iranian Plateau. But R1b entered the Steppes via Caucasus, while R1a entered the Steppes via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan from Iran.



    PS: Yo fellas, I told you so. No matter how much some folks try to change history, this is how it was and you can't change it. The more you try, the more you FAIL......

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    And as I said before (here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31629-Part-2-8-000-years-of-Natural-Selection-in-Europe/page4 ), the YELLOW EHG folks were partly Caucasoid (GREEN) and partly Mongoloid (RED). The only difference is that I thought that they were more Mongoloid than Caucasoid. But I made a mistake. According to the writers EHG was 57% Caucasoid and 43% Mongoloid.

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    @Goga,

    Those migration routes are guesses and nothing else. Stop with the ethnocentrism. Everything doesn't come from West Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @Goga,

    Those migration routes are guesses and nothing else. Stop with the ethnocentrism. Everything doesn't come from West Asia.
    I would not dismiss something just because Goga believes in it
    At some point R lines did cross Iran, and it happened before arrival to East Europe. Iran is between Africa and Mal'ta.

    Also arrival of R1a or R1b via Kazakhstan is not an invalid proposal.

    What matters more is when, and graph says 33 kya, which to me seems a bit early, but there is no adna that old from Ukraine to accept or dismiss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Thank you for this latest paper. As you can see even according to them there was East into West migration and not vice versa.

    I like their map very much!




    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...1.figures-only



    According to them the folks (GREEN European ancestors) from the Iranian Plateau migrated into Yamnaya via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan, before they later Indo-Europized the rest of Europe.

    Like I said a couple of days ago it's possible that those folks were R1a and arrived in the stepped via the eastern side of the Caspian Sea, while R1b from the Iranian Plaeau arirved in Yamnaya via the Maykop civilization.


    Both R1a and R1b are from the Iranian Plateau. But R1b entered the Steppes via Caucasus, while R1a entered the Steppes via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan from Iran.



    PS: Yo fellas, I told you so. No matter how much some folks try to change history, this is how it was and you can't change it. The more you try, the more you FAIL......

    its a rubbish map..............where is the split of K2 and K1 groups from F

    I and J is wrong when its recently noted that they split apart from each other on the indus river
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Since we are speaking about east Asian ancestry.A question about Haplogroups but first a little background. My parents are Albanians who lived in Montenegro. My fathers family tree reaches back at least 200+ years. My moms is just here say, great grandparents and what not, I know all of my relatives (there are way too many) I know I had multiple uncles from her side that disappeared during the Balkan wars. Anyway, I received my 23andme results yesterday. My fathers side is no shocker I am of the EV13 branch. However, My mothers side came out to be D4J! I know these Haplogroups reach wayyyy back in history and it really has nothing to do with any relative that I would know. however the only thing I know about this group is that it is of East Asian decent. Which is shocking to me, could this be a mistake? Thank you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    its a rubbish map..............where is the split of K2 and K1 groups from F

    I and J is wrong when its recently noted that they split apart from each other on the indus river
    yes, and furthermore it totally ignores the fact that Siberia was almost depopulated during LGM

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, and furthermore it totally ignores the fact that Siberia was almost depopulated during LGM
    No, it doesn't ignore anything. It's from this study, did you read it?

    As you can see RED in Siberia that migrated into Yellow: Mansi, Khanty, Nenets areas which is ancestral to EHG for about 4.9 - 7.1 thousands of years ago.

    East Siberian auDNA was formed in NorthEast China for about 10 thousands of years ago and than migrated into the Steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    its a rubbish map..............where is the split of K2 and K1 groups from F

    I and J is wrong when its recently noted that they split apart from each other on the indus river
    No, you're wrong.

    Y-DNA haplogroup IJK was ancestral to IJ and K. Haplogroup K was split from the archaic hg. IJK somewhere in West Asia. K2 was from K.


    from wiki

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @Goga,

    Those migration routes are guesses and nothing else. Stop with the ethnocentrism. Everything doesn't come from West Asia.
    This map is from this most recent study. You don't like this study because it breaks your fantasy and bring you into the reality again. I noticed that you ignore all scientific studies that don't fit your fantasy.

    It's how it is. It has nothing to do with ethnocentrism. If you don't like the reality it's not my fault.

    West Asia is the centum of the ancient world. It's a crossroad between African, Europe, SouthEast Asia, Central Asia & East Asia (the Steppes) etc. Of course most important migrations happened through West Asia. Nothing to do with centrism, but LOCATION...



    POWER to the science!





    Last edited by Goga; 19-10-15 at 21:11.

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    I'm not familiar with this group, and it may turn out that their analysis of the data is not totally correct, but I don't know that I'd be tossing out words like rubbish. If nothing else, it seems that Pickrell had quite a bit of input.

    One thing that initially threw me a bit was that the authors repeatedly made comments to the effect that the EHG had large amounts of Mansi admixture and that it can be found in virtually all eastern hunters, including the Gamba sample. (which is surprising given that he was basically WHG, wasn't he? My understanding was that the Mansi and other Western Siberian groups were relatively "new" admixed groups. (Was that in fact the general view up until now?)

    It's quite an about face to comments that could be interpreted to mean that the Mansi are some sort of relict population that fed into these almost as ancient Eastern hunter gatherers. When I re-read more carefully it seems that perhaps they are talking about a "Mansi-like" population or even that they mean that populations similar to the populations that formed the Mansi also fed into the Eastern Hunter-Gatherers? The two populations would be "Western Siberian like", and "Eastern Siberian like"? The language isn't clear. On balance perhaps they just mean a "Mansi like" group that had both Western Siberian and Eastern Siberian affinities.

    It would certainly explain the EDAR in the SHG and in two of the Abanasievo samples.

    This is a relevant passage: "demonstrated strong admixtures between Mansi and nearly all hunter-gatherers from Eastern Europe, particularly for Samara and Karelia samples. Slightly weaker, but significant affinities were present between Eastern Siberian Even and Eastern European hunter-gatherers. This was consistent with Mansi carrying Even-related admixture, which also permeated into ancient European populations. Yamnaya samples also showed statistically significant admixtures with Mansi and Even, but weaker compared to Samara HG,which indicates further dilution of eastern hunter-gatherer ancestry component of Yamnaya culture samples."

    The signal was diluted in the Yamnaya presumably because of their "Near Eastern" ancestry.

    .
    There's also this:
    "Since Mansi-related admixtures are detectable within an ancient individual, who lived 8-6.6 kya, the ANE-related ancestry among Eastern European hunter gatherers
    could be attributed to gene flows into population ancestral to Mansi and Eastern European hunter-gatherers that occurred before 6,600 years ago. Siberians also shared part of their ancestry with Pitted Ware Culture (PWC), 5,000-year-oldhunter-gatherers from SwedenIre8 and Ajv5233, Ajv52 and particularly Ire8 had strong admixture signals with Western Siberians Mansi (Fig. 5e, Supplementary Fig. 17b), suggesting that like the closely related Yamnaya culture, they had strong ANE ancestries likely due to admixtures with Mansi-related populations. Siberians also shared part of their ancestry with Pitted Ware Culture (PWC) 5,00-yearold hunter-gatherers from Sweden..."

    Another very interesting thing is that they tie the ANE gene flow only to N.

    As Kristina said, that seems a bit of a leap. It also raises the obvious question, which is what about "R", particularly in light of the fact that Mal'ta, who serves as the ANE reference sample, is "R"?

    Do they know something we don't know? Are they just reluctant to say anything definitive about "R" until those ancient Caucasus samples are released? Or are they just jumping to conclusions a bit?












    Last edited by Angela; 19-10-15 at 21:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No, you're wrong.

    Y-DNA haplogroup IJK was ancestral to IJ and K. Haplogroup K was split from the archaic hg. IJK somewhere in West Asia. K2 was from K.


    from wiki
    in 5 = Haplogroup LT (L298/P326) is also known as Haplogroup K1...................K1a = L and K1b = T

    this is the split of K group (K1 and K2)

    see notes to numbers at bottom of the link where you got the chart

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    in 5 = Haplogroup LT (L298/P326) is also known as Haplogroup K1...................K1a = L and K1b = T

    this is the split of K group (K1 and K2)

    see notes to numbers at bottom of the link where you got the chart
    Yes, but you said that K was from F, while K is actually from IJK.

    K1 (L & T) could be native to Gedrosia (Iranian Plateau), North of Indus Valley. But you can't say that about Y-DNA hg. IJK. There is no native hg. I or even hg. J in SouthCentral Asia. So I don't think that IJK evolved somewhere in SouthCentral Asia. They found more basal hg. IJ in Persia...


    Ps. Your hg. T could enter Europe together with hg. I thousands of years ago...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Yes, but you said that K was from F, while K is actually from IJK.

    K1 (L & T) could be native to Gedrosia (Iranian Plateau), North of Indus Valley. But you can't say that about Y-DNA hg. IJK. There is no native hg. I in SouthCentral Asia. So I don't think that IJK evolved somewhere in SouthCentral Asia. They found more basal IJ in Persia...
    IJ in maybe eastern Persia , especially since the latest gypsy/roma paper has many many I and J old markers found there. where is south-central asia in regards to genetics?

    as for K1 , I guess it can be there , but I have thought of it being between ancient bactria and the pamir mountains ..........

    as for me as you noted.....with 99.4% european I guess I arrived in late bronze age into europe, or earlier, like neolithic as per KAR6 and KAR16A in central Germany

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    as for K1 , I guess it can be there , but I have thought of it being between ancient bactria and the pamir mountains ..........

    as for me as you noted.....with 99.4% european I guess I arrived in late bronze age into europe, or earlier, like neolithic as per KAR6 and KAR16A in central Germany
    For me, SouthCentral Asia could be Kashmir or northeast Pakistan & southeastern Afghanistan, that region.



    Haplogroups I and even your T(1a) can be very ancient to Europe. It could enter Europe thousands years earlier than the Bronze Age. Hg. T can be very well just native to the ancient Romans and as native to Europe as I1.


    Other possiblity is that T1a entered Europe together with hg. J2 & R1b with the Indo-European speakers who settled down around the Yamnaya horizon.


    OR from the Iranic folks like Sarmatians, Alans who fought in the Roman army for the Roman Emperor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No, it doesn't ignore anything. It's from this study, did you read it?

    As you can see RED in Siberia that migrated into Yellow: Mansi, Khanty, Nenets areas which is ancestral to EHG for about 4.9 - 7.1 thousands of years ago.

    East Siberian auDNA was formed in NorthEast China for about 10 thousands of years ago and than migrated into the Steppes.
    no I didn't read the study, but I will

    on the map, the only fixed positions are the green dots
    then they drew a tree roughly coming out of Africa and arriving at the green dots, without taking much care about the intermediate positions, which they don't know

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    This map is from this most recent study. You don't like this study because it breaks your fantasy and bring you into the reality again. I noticed that you ignore all scientific studies that don't fit your fantasy.
    My fantasy? Maybe I had a fantasy like 2 years ago, but I don't any more. I just like learning about genetics, even Chinese or Papuan or whatever, I don't care. Of course I'm more into something that relates to me or predominate people in my world but that doesn't mean I'm biased. I don't support Steppe-migration theory because it's my fantasy. I support it because it's basically been proven correct with Ancient DNA. Gene-flow went from Ukraine area all the way to India, Afghanistan, Iran, and even Iraq in the Bronze age. Arguable there's Steppe-ancestry in every part of West Asia via migrations that could have brought R1b-Z2103 and lots of ANE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    It's how it is. It has nothing to do with ethnocentrism. If you don't like the reality it's not my fault.
    Maybe I miss read you or maybe I didn't. Sometimes I make wrong assumptions about people. I'm going to stop accusing people of bad behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    West Asia is the centum of the ancient world. It's a crossroad between African, Europe, SouthEast Asia, Central Asia & East Asia (the Steppes) etc. Of course most important migrations happened through West Asia. Nothing to do with centrism, but LOCATION...
    I agree at some point all Eurasians ancestors lived in West Asia. After that though West Asia is one of many regions inhabited by humans in Eurasia. Migration of ideas, genes, whatever can go in any direction. I guess West Asia is sort of in the middle and can distribute across the rest of the world. Early civilizations began in West Asia, but that's probably coincidence. Doesn't make the region special.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    My fantasy? Maybe I had a fantasy like 2 years ago, but I don't any more. I just like learning about genetics, even Chinese or Papuan or whatever, I don't care. Of course I'm more into something that relates to me or predominate people in my world but that doesn't mean I'm biased. I don't support Steppe-migration theory because it's my fantasy. I support it because it's basically been proven correct with Ancient DNA. Gene-flow went from Ukraine area all the way to India, Afghanistan, Iran, and even Iraq in the Bronze age. Arguable there's Steppe-ancestry in every part of West Asia via migrations that could have brought R1b-Z2103 and lots of ANE.
    Lmao, can you provide me a study about this? Steppes as PIE urheimat is fantasy, science-fiction. I read at least 10 scientific studies very recently where the denounce west to east steppe migration fantasy. There are no Ukrainian genes in India at all. There is no I2a or N1c1 in India. there is not much of EHG in India, but India has lot's of West Asian DNA, haplogroups and auDNA. R1a-Z93 in India is from BMAC. Either you're not very smart or you act dumb on purpose. This study we are discuss is saying that there was east to west migration and not vice versa. As you can see GREEN entered Yamnaya from the Iranian Plateau. Europeans who arrived in Yamnaya Horizon came from the Iranian Plateau as this SCIENTIFIC paper is claiming. You do know that me as a Kurd, native to West Asia, have much more ANE in me than people in Ukraine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    no I didn't read the study, but I will

    on the map, the only fixed positions are the green dots
    then they drew a tree roughly coming out of Africa and arriving at the green dots, without taking much care about the intermediate positions, which they don't know
    Are you blinded with tears by the stream from the Iranian Plateau into Yamnaya where ' Europeans ' is written?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Are you blinded with tears by the stream from the Iranian Plateau into Yamnaya where ' Europeans ' is written?
    Dude they also have it at 33kya which has no bearing on PIE but I know you don't care about these minor details. This would be like a Gravettian argument, which I would get if you changed the question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Dude they also have it at 33kya which has no bearing on PIE but I know you don't care about these minor details. This would be like a Gravettian argument, which I would get if you changed the question.
    Dude, are you the same as Fire Haired? If so, double accouts are not allowed.


    It says that than Yamnaya is between 5.3 - 4.7 k years old. Folks from the Iranian Plateau migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon. It says that folks who migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon lived on the Iranian Plateau for at least 30 k years. SO those who migrated into Yamnaya were native to the Iranian Plateau. Read the paper.


    And the paper doesn't speak about Indo-Europeans but just Europeans. Indo-Europeans could come into Yamnaya from the Maykop with R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Lmao, can you provide me a study about this? Steppes as PIE urheimat is fantasy, science-fiction. I read at least 10 scientific studies very recently where the denounce west to east steppe migration fantasy. There are no Ukrainian genes in India at all. There is no I2a or N1c1 in India. there is not much of EHG in India, but India has lot's of West Asian DNA, haplogroups and auDNA. R1a-Z93 in India is from BMAC. Either you're not very smart or you act dumb on purpose. This study we are discuss is saying that there was east to west migration and not vice versa. As you can see GREEN entered Yamnaya from the Iranian Plateau. Europeans who arrived in Yamnaya Horizon came from the Iranian Plateau as this SCIENTIFIC paper is claiming. You do know that me as a Kurd, native to West Asia, have much more ANE in me than people in Ukraine?
    Maybe I'll read the paper later. I have lots of doubts about it. You having lots of ANE could have a million differnt origins. I don't see what your people's ANE proves.

    I agree India has lots of West Asian ancestry. They also have some European ancestry(which is about 50% West Asian), probably less, but still some. Davidski has shown Bronze age Steppe people are a better proxy for the West Eurasian ancestry of SC Asians than any West Asians are. You don't see N1c1 and I2a in India because Sintashta, Snrbya(spelling?), and Andronovo had R1a-Z93.

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