Teasar: Re-population of Ireland in the Bronze age

[Tomenable]

By the way - where in Europe can the most basal subclades of I1 be found today ???

If I recall correctly, most basal subclades are found in Central Europe, rather than in Scandinavia.

This would suggest that the most recent common ancestor of all modern I1 could indeed live there.

Another thing is, that recently haplogroup I (not I1, but some kind of I) has been found in Neolithic remains from Western Anatolia. And since we have absolutely no pre-Neolithic I1 from Europe, we can no longer be sure if I1 was in Europe in Mesolithic times, or came later from Anatolia.

Of course I don't claim that I is more native to Anatolia than to Europe, but it is possible, that groups of WHG hunters with I moved from the Balkans to Anatolia, where haplogroup I1 multiplied in numbers, was absorbed by predominantly G2a farmers, and then "re-emigrated" back to Europe.

The other option is, that Neolithic farmers absorbed haplogroup I from WHG hunters already after moving into the Balkans and Hungary.

In any case, it seems that "WHG-type" hunters were not limited just to Europe, some groups also inhabited Mesolithic Western Anatolia.

 

[Tomenable]

The only source who claims that he found I1 in Mesolithic Europe (in Scandinavia, to be precise) is Genetiker:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-stora-forvar-11/

But then, Genetiker also claims that he found R1b-M269 in El Portalon cave of Neolithic Non-Indo-European Spain.

I'm not sure how much we can trust him, both of these findings seem to be unconfirmed by professional studies so far.

 

[MOESAN]

I think since a long time the most of Y-I1 is not by force anterior to Y-R1a in Sweden-Norway- I wait proofs of course.
Your hypothesis of a Central Europe ancient Y-I1 of Neolithic culture later climbed towards North is not impossible - is TRB responsible of its northwards way to Scandinavia? I don't know, but if possible it doesn't prove the most of these I1 bearers were fully neoliticized before TRB, and in Hungary - a lonesome Neolithic Y-I1 in Hungary is not sufficient to answer this. Nevertheless a metrics surveys of Zsoffmann in the Carpathian Bassin spoke of a robust-dolichomorphic element among neolithicized populations there, not confused with her "proto-european-cromagnoid" (sorry for their namings!), element which was not found in other Neolithic regions nor in Dniestr region at this time.
What confuse me in an Hungarian or Central Europe Neolithic origin of today Scandinavian Y-I1 is the big lost of Y-G2a and of others "Neolithical" Y-haplos on the road... it would suppose a drastic bottleneck just followed by a drastic founder effect, but who knows?

 

[Fire Haired14]

The only source who claims that he found I1 in Mesolithic Europe (in Scandinavia, to be precise) is Genetiker:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-stora-forvar-11/

But then, Genetiker also claims that he found R1b-M269 in El Portalon cave of Neolithic Non-Indo-European Spain.

I'm not sure how much we can trust him, both of these findings seem to be unconfirmed by professional studies so far.

The calls he gets for SNPs have been confirmed several times. The pre-I1 in Sf11 looks legit because it's based on many SNPs.

 

[Rethel]

That I1 was found in LBK culture, which later expanded to the north, forming the TRB culture, groups of which reached Scandinavia. So in my opinion that I1 from Hungary could be ancestral to I1 in Scandinavia. Let's remember, that in Mesolithic Scandinavia no I1 has been found, but only various subclades of I2. So it most likely came there later, with Neolithic TRB farmers, who were the first ones to bring farming to Scandinavia. I see no reason to condemn Neolithic Hungarian I1 to extinction, even though it probably went through a bottleneck, and then a founder effect.

Here is roughly how I imagined that (and IMO I1 was in Scandinavia before R1a and before R1b as well):

Tomenable,
very good concept. I was assuming couple of years ago, when every one was exited that aftre LGM
from some refuges came I1 into Scandinavia, that I1 was probabaly result of founder effect - if not
migrated in near past from the south, then most probably was decimated in Scandinavia by CW and
after that, living as very few people in mountains, forests and as slaves among early germanic people
were growing in number changing their phenotype at the begining of that process and enlarging later
helped by some plags and wars - all in historical times. Your estimation is very restraind in time, and
this is good, but even this is probably to bold.

I quote from wikipedia: A new study in 2015 estimated the origin as between 3,470 to
5,070 years ago or between 3,180 to 3,760 years ago, using two different techniques

Original source: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150519/ncomms8152/fig_tab/ncomms8152_T1.html

Whole I1 can have common ancestor who was living during reign of Rameses III around
1165 BC. So, there is even no need for this 6000-8000 years from prehistorical times...

But I like your concept after all...

 

[Fire Haired14]

I quote from wikipedia: A new study in 2015 estimated the origin as between 3,470 to
5,070 years ago or between 3,180 to 3,760 years ago, using two different techniques

Original source: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150519/ncomms8152/fig_tab/ncomms8152_T1.html

Whole I1 can have common ancestor who was living during reign of Rameses III around
1165 BC. So, there is even no need for this 6000-8000 years from prehistorical times...

But I like your concept after all...

That study was very good, it shows R1b/R1a/I1/N1c expanded in Europe after 5,000 years ago. We have an example of I1 in Sweden from 4,000 years ago, so before Rameses. It's crazy to think about: Out of the millions of men who lived in Europe in 3000-4000 BC, 4 of them take up 60%+ of Y DNA in Europe today.

 

[Rethel]

That study was very good, it shows R1b/R1a/I1/N1c expanded in Europe after 5,000 years ago. We have an example of I1 in Sweden from 4,000 years ago, so before Rameses. It's crazy to think about: Out of the millions of men who lived in Europe in 3000-4000 BC, 4 of them take up 60%+ of Y DNA in Europe today.

It is not crazy, but this many-thousand-years-empty-timeline is simply artificial.

So many datation was changed during lat 10 years, and ascendent-descendent system,
that probably many will be change yet. As the example of I1 shows, there was no 33.000*
of years as previosly was claiming. 10 times to much... and most of this huge empty periods
are probably many times to big periods... But they are very needed for evolutionists like oxygen...

2000 BC (in Sweden) or 1200 BC - in this situation it makes no big difference. Mistake is huge
in both cases and this 4000 years can be wrong also - there is never 100% cetaity in datation.
But it doesn't matter - 4000 years ago comparing to previously 33.000* ya - it is a big difference.

Real distances between for example I and I1 and I2 are probably much shorter, that it is claiming.
As this study shows (and not only this one of course), there is completly no need for so huuuuge
period of empty time of tens of thousands of years to multiply and to made couple of subhaplotype.




*It was exactly ~28.000 +/- 5000, and later the age was estimated on ~15.000 years...

 

[Rethel]

Why I cannot click to anyone green pluses and add reputation?

 

[Sile]

Why I cannot click to anyone green pluses and add reputation?

you only get 3 clicks per day - total is combination of green and red

 

[MOESAN]

It looks that way. However lots of high coverage data is needed to confirm.

All of us ar perhaps going to quick; say: a Central Europe Late Neolithic mt DNA in Ireland doesn't prove the most of it was in Ireland and the Isles since Neolithic; some more "autochtonous neolithical" lt DNA of central Europe could have been assimilated by Celts or others before reaching the Isles?
when I read 'BBs' I have always a doubt concerning the understanding of people about it: first BBs launchers of the 3000 BC or cultures of West or North-Central Europe (already celtized?) of the 2500/2200 BC having adopted BBs kits?