When could possibly Ugrofinians have come to Europe?

[arvistro]

Read what I wrote about the very tiny population of the Baltics. 2000 years ago they were even much, much more irrelevant then they are now. What could they do with such a small population of 5000 people (men, women, children). Invade India, like some deranged people believe, LMAO???

According to the best theory we have, Indo-Euros started in Steppe and moved into different locations, including Baltics, in Baltics initially as Corded Ware culture. Since Baltics was rather empty region Indo-Euros there replaced whatever hunters lived there before and stayed pretty much the same until these days, since new arrivers into Baltics a) were not that frequent; b) were derived from Corded Ware ultimately as well

Also you have to take into account that all Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) N comes from one man who lived 500-700 BCE. So, who knows how this guy managed to produce 50% of our folk. Probably he was either very strong (conqueror) or very useful (iron smith).

____________
I don't know where you get your fantasies about Baltic people invading India 2000 years ago???? ))) That is 0 AD, man!!

 

[Goga]

Do you have a degree in linguistics preferably in area of comparative linguistics to be able to assess arguments in the area?

I do speak Kurdish (Kurmanji) as my native language. I was born in the USSR, Georgia so obviously Russian is even better then Kurdish. Some Georgian too. I live more than 25 years in Holland. So I do speak Dutch fluently. I can read, speak and write in German, French and English. My highest education I got only in English.

I went to a gymnasium, so I'm also familiar with Latin and ancient Greek.


But the true is that I'm better at math (equations etc.) than in languages. Languages are not really my strongest point.


I read many 'real' linguistic scientists who never wrote anything thoughtful about ancient Finno-Ugric and PIE connection.



I see you're from Latvia. You like it or not, but you are at least 40% Mongoloid/Finni-Ugric . I'm sure than Finno-Ugric/Mongoloid DNA is part of East European auDNA


______________

Well people like you believe that you're the Aryans who invaded India, right? Ok, I made a mistake it was maybe 4000 years ago, at the time when there lived maybe 100 people in the Baltics, LMAO!

 

[Goga]

At least NAZI Germany made more sense with their ATLANTIS theory, homeland of the Aryans, then some deranged folks, from the Eastern Europe, especially very lost Polish fellas.


ATLANTIS theory where Aryans are from is much more amusing than theories by Polish guys ...

 

[Fire Haired14]

@Goga,

IEs weren't absorbed in Finland. Corded Ware was a brand new type of people when they arrived 4500 years ago. No one in Finland like them lived there before. Modern Finnish are mostly Corded Ware-like. They are instead mostly descended of newcomers from the European plain. Ancient DNA has proven genetic discontinuity with Mesolithic and modern FinoUrgic region. Most of their ancestry is from people who arrived from the European plain 4,000-5,000 years ago.

"Eurpoid=Caucsoid+Mongolid". There's no way to define Caucasoid anyways. The Mongoloid admixture in FinoUrgics came after 7,000 years ago and is exclusive to them and Turks in Russia.

 

[Goga]

@Goga,

IEs weren't absorbed in Finland. Corded Ware was a brand new type of people when they arrived 4500 years ago. No one in Finland like them lived there before. Modern Finnish are mostly Corded Ware-like. They are instead mostly descended of newcomers from the European plain. Ancient DNA has proven genetic discontinuity with Mesolithic and modern FinoUrgic region. Most of their ancestry is from people who arrived from the European plain 4,000-5,000 years ago.

"Eurpoid=Caucsoid+Mongolid". There's no way to define Caucasoid anyways. The Mongoloid admixture in FinoUrgics came after 7,000 years ago and is exclusive to them and Turks in Russia.

Anno 2016 there're 5 million Fins. They speak a Finno-Ugric language. At least 61.5% of them belong to N1c1. That is more than 3 million of Fins are N1c1 !

How many people lived in Finland 4000 years ago? 0? Maybe a few thousands? Because of the climate it was not really densely populated.


What we do know that we've got Saami folks in Lapland, they are the oldest people in Europe. Saami predate Indo-European speakers. They speak Finno-Ugric and are Mongoloid / N1c1, distantly related to Eskimos.


Corded Ware folks were very multicultural. They had very, very diverse haplogroups, native I1, I2, N1c1, but mostly recent European type of R1a. Which came from the East. Corded Ware was also partly Mongoloid, but not as much as people of Finland nowadays.


Caucasoid = the name says it all. CAUCASUS, Caucasoid (CHG, Gedrosia) was native to 'Caucasus Mountains' / 'West Asia'.


Caucasoid haplogroups are derived from IJ are I1, I2, J1 and J2

R1* also evolved in West Asia / Iranian Plateau. Since R1* evolved in West Asia it has to be Caucasoid. Original R1b that migrated from 'West Asia'/Maykop into Yamnaya Horzion was Caucasoid / Gedrosia type. The same can be said about R1a. R1a from the Iranian Plateau was Caucasoid/ Gedrosia.


But when R1b & R1a entered into the Steppes, R1a and R1b mixed heavily with Mongoloid DNA. Because Mongoloid DNA is NATIVE to the Steppes. So Caucasoid DNA of R1a/R1b continuously diluted and is diluting as times passed / passing by.



"Purest" Caucasoids live in the Caucasus...

 

[Tomenable]

Because Mongoloid DNA is NATIVE to the Steppes.

Nope, it is not - at least studies have not found any Mongoloids in the Steppes until the Late Bronze Age:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture#Genetics_and_physical_anthropology

The Andronovo have been described by archaeologists as exhibiting pronounced Europoid features.[14] A 2004 study also established that, during the Bronze/Iron Age period, the majority of the population of Kazakhstan (part of the Andronovo culture during Bronze Age), was of West Eurasian origin (with mtDNA haplogroups such as U, H, HV, T, I and W), and that prior to the thirteenth to seventh century BC, all Kazakh samples belonged to European lineages.[21] Other studies confirm, that during Bronze Age in areas to the north of present-day China, the boundary between Europoid and Mongoloid populations was on the eastern slopes of the Altai, in Western Mongolia.[22][23] Some Europoid influence extended also into Northeast Mongolia,[24] and the population of present-day Kazakhstan was Europoid during the Bronze/Iron Age period.[25] Archaeological investigations likewise suggest, that in the steppe region of Central Asia and the Altai Mountains, the first food production began towards the end of the 3rd millennium BC and that the peoples who first entered this region were Europoids of the Afanasevo culture who came from the Aral Sea area (Kelteminar culture).[26]

Mongoloids expanded into the Steppes during the Iron Age and the Middle Ages, for example in the 1200s:

 

[Tomenable]

Already during the Iron Age there had been migrations of mixed* Caucasoid-Mongoloid peoples to West Eurasia:

Most of those early migrations (pre-Medieval ones) originated from territories of Xiongnu and Xianbei realms:

- from the 1st / 2nd to the 4th centuries AD the Chuni / Huns expanded westward**
- between the 5th and the 13th centuries AD various Turkic peoples expanded westward
- during the 6th century AD the Rouran / Avars went in western direction towards Europe
- in the 12th century Khitans (relatives of Mongols) migrated westward to Central Asia
- from the 13th to the 17th centuries there were Mongol migrations (including Kalmyks)

*The most Mongoloid of those groups are the Mongols, but even they have ca. 10% of Caucasoid admixture.

**The main wave of Huns reached Europe in 375 AD, but already in the 100s AD Ptolemy mentioned "Chuni":

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/3/5*.html

Quote (but scholars are not sure if Ptolemy's 2nd century "Chuni" were related to the later 4th century Huns):

near the bend of the Tanis river are the Ophlones and then the Tanaitae; below whom are the Osili extending as far as Rhoxolanis; between the Amaxobii and the Rhoxolani are the Rheucanali and the Exobygitae; and between the Peucini and the Basternae are the Carpiani, above whom are the Gevini, then the Bodini; between the Basternae and the Rhoxolani are the Chuni, and below the mountains named from these are the Amadoci and the Navari.

The Basternae are usually considered a Celto-Germanic mix, while the Rhoxolani are considered Iranic.

 

[Goga]

Huh? What are according to you the Eurasian Steppes?


For confirmation the pink is Steppe, it's stretched from Mongolia/Northern China to Ukraine. Russia is a huge country and borders even Japan...

http://slaviclandscape.blogspot.nl/2012/12/the-steppes-8.html




Are you saying that people in Mongolia/Northern China were Europoid = Caucasoid + Mongoloid?


The Northern Eurasian Steppes have always been populated by Mongoloid people. But some Caucasoid folks migrated into the Steppes very early and in some areas where Caucasoid mixed with Mongoloid people became Europoid.


To my understanding the Steppe folks in Mongolia/Northern China were always Mongoloid.


Never heard of Uralo-Siberian Mesolithic hunting and fishing people in south-central Siberia between 8000-10000 years ago? If they were not from the Steppes, where are they from then? From the Moon?

 

[Goga]

My point is that the early East Euopean Steppe hunter/gatherers were already heavily mixed with Mongoloid people from the East. Actually they were already 'Europoid' what means: Caucasoid + Mongoloid. Maybe they were even Mongoloid first before WHG or CHG (Caucasoid) arrived and made them more Europoid. More to the East they became gradually more Mongoloid and more to the West toward Europe they became less Mongoloid and more Caucasoid.

In the Western Steppes (West Russian Steppes), WHG and maybe CHG folks mixed with Mongoloid Uralo-Siberian/Altaian and Finno-Ugric folks. East European hunter/gatherers were a product of those admix folks

 

[Tomenable]

The most Mongoloid of those groups are the Mongols, but even they have ca. 10% of Caucasoid admixture.

This graph shows, that Mongols from Mongolia are ca. 90% Mongoloid and 10% Caucasoid - not 100% Mongoloid (like Han Chinese):

 

[Tomenable]

East Euopean hunter/gatherers were already mixed with Mongoloid people from the East.

You mean Ancient North Eurasians (ANE) from Siberia ???

Modern Mongoloids - such as Han Chinese - do not have any ANE admixture.

So ANE should rather be considered a separate group.

ANE admixture is present in Native Americans, West Eurasians and Siberians.

But it isn't present in classic Mongoloids such as Chinese, Koreans or Japanese.

==========================

Huh? What are according to you the Eurasian Steppes?

Sorry, I was talking only about the Western Steppe (to the West of the Altai).

Map "A" shows the percent of East Asian mtDNA in the Bronze Age:
Map "B" shows the frequency of East Asian mtDNA in Late Iron Age:

 

[Tomenable]

Huh? What are according to you the Eurasian Steppes?

Sorry I forgot to add - I meant Eurasian Steppes to the west of Altai Mountains.

To the east of the Altai - in Mongolia - was predominantly Mongoloid territory.

The Altai mountains were the boundary until the end of the Bronze Age.

See here:

Map "A" shows the percent of East Asian mtDNA in the Bronze Age:
Map "B" shows the frequency of East Asian mtDNA in the Iron Age:

 

[Tomenable]

Until the end of the Bronze Age, the steppe Caucasoid-Mongoloid boundary was approximately here:
(but some Caucasoid influence extended farther east too; and probably also the other way around):

 

[Tomenable]

Europoid = Caucasoid + Mongoloid?

Euorpoid is not Caucasoid + Mongoloid. Europoid is just another name for Caucasoid.

A "geographically neutral" name for it, is West Eurasian. And Mongoloid is East Asian.

 

[Goga]

You mean Ancient North Eurasians (ANE) from Siberia ???

I mean East Euro H&G as EHG. EHG = WHG/CHG + Mongoloid (Uralo-Siberian)


EHG is Europoid (partly Caucasoid, partly Mongoloid). Europoid = Caucasoid + Mongoloid.

Inuktitut is a different name for Eskimos right? Saami and Finns in Northern Europe are as old as Inuit/Eskimos in Northern America
" Saami, Finnish, Inuktitut: ancient cousins, once removed

... There, families whose migrations were ruled by the coming and going of glaciers during the Ice Age moved northward out of this area in successive waves until about 4,000 BC.
Some headed west along the northern coasts and others went east, eventually crossing the Bering Strait to North America.
They would end up living across the circumpolar region, with Inuit living from Alaska through to Canada and Greenland, Saami in Sápmi (northern Norway, Sweden, Finland and northern Russia) and Finns in Finland (or Suomi in Finnish.) ...

... You can still hear today’s version of that language in Nunavut — where Uralo-Siberian developed into Inuktitut — and in Finland — where that language survived as Saami and as Finnish.
To me, someone who has lived in both regions and speaks Finnish (fairly fluently) and Inuktitut (not nearly as well) and can understand when people speak Saami (usually), the idea that there was once a united Uralo-Siberian family of languages makes sense.
That's because the grammars of the three languages feel so similar (not to mention many shared cultural elements). ...

... More recent genetic tests do show Saami and Finns share more genetic markers linked with Asian populations in the Bering Strait and beyond than do any other European populations. ...

... The Origin and Genetic Background of the Sámi suggests that Saami and, to a lesser extent, Finns were able to maintain their separate language identities over the centuries due to their geographic isolation in the Arctic while other peoples were losing their languages to Indo-European speakers from the South. ... "


for more : http://jgeorgeblog.com/2014/06/19/finnish-inuktitut-cousins-once-removed/

 

[Tomenable]

Mongoloid (Uralo-Siberian)

That was not Mongoloid, but Ancient North Eurasian (ANE).

Modern Mongoloids and North Africans do not have ANE (light green = very low or no ANE):

Grey = data not included

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQdjVCR09QSG52Z0k/view

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/08/high-level-of-ancient-north-eurasian.html

On the other hand, modern Kurds such as you and Poles such as me have quite a lot of it:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30763-New-map-of-Ancient-Eurasian-(ANE)-admixture

 

[Tomenable]

Also Native Americans have ANE admixture (in addition to their Mongoloid ancestry).

And this ANE is considered to be the Non-Mongoloid part (minority) of their ancestry:

ANE ancestry (Native Americans have most, then Europeans and Indo-Iranians; Chinese people don't have it):

 

[Goga]

Mongoloid (Uralo-Siberian)

That was not Mongoloid, but Ancient North Eurasian (ANE).

Modern Mongoloids and North Africans do not have ANE (light green = very low or no ANE):

I'm not talking about ANE, but about EHG. In the same manner as WHG and CHG. EHG were native ancient East European people. And I'm not saying that EHG were fully Mongoloid. They were Europoid, with that I do mean partly Caucasoid, partly Mongoloid...

 

[Fire Haired14]

Anno 2016 there're 5 million Fins. They speak a Finno-Ugric language. At least 61.5% of them belong to N1c1. That is more than 3 million of Fins are N1c1 !

Lots of their ancestors had R1a. 80% of Irish have R1b, but 80% of their blood isn't from the ancestors who gave them R1b. Same for Finns and N1c1.

What we do know that we've got Saami folks in Lapland, they are the oldest people in Europe. Saami predate Indo-European speakers. They speak Finno-Ugric and are Mongoloid / N1c1, distantly related to Eskimos.

EHG is native to Saami territory. Saami are 30% EHG at most. The rest of their blood is EEF, WHG, and CHG. They have decent from the same Yamnaya-like and EEF/WHG-like populations all Europeans do. 3500 year old mtDNA from Saami country is unlike modern Saami. So, no Saami aren't ultra-ingenious to Saami country. They, like Norse, are descended of new people who came from further south 5,000-4,000 years ago. Saami are native to their country in modern times, but they aren't native when you go back 5,000 years. The reason Saami are viewed as these romantic natives, is because they've been conquered by Norway, Sweden, and Finland in modern times. But if anything Swedes are just as native to Scandinavia as Saami are.

Corded Ware folks were very multicultural. They had very, very diverse haplogroups, native I1, I2, N1c1, but mostly recent European type of R1a. Which came from the East. Corded Ware was also partly Mongoloid, but not as much as people of Finland nowadays.

There's nothing that suggests East Asian blood in Corded Ware. EHG looks like it had a little bit, so I guess Corded Ware had a melted down version of that.

Caucasoid = the name says it all. CAUCASUS, Caucasoid (CHG, Gedrosia) was native to 'Caucasus Mountains' / 'West Asia'.

CHG was discovered after the term Caucasian was made. There's no special relationship between Caucasus Mountains and Europeans.

R1* also evolved in West Asia / Iranian Plateau. Since R1* evolved in West Asia it has to be Caucasoid. Original R1b that migrated from 'West Asia'/Maykop into Yamnaya Horzion was Caucasoid / Gedrosia type. The same can be said about R1a. R1a from the Iranian Plateau was Caucasoid/ Gedrosia.

What is Caucasoid? We don't know. It's a term for Europeans or West Eurasians, that's it. There's no exact definition of what it is. So, saying because R1* evolved in West Asia it has to be Caucasoid, doesn't make sense.

But when R1b & R1a entered into the Steppes, R1a and R1b mixed heavily with Mongoloid DNA. Because Mongoloid DNA is NATIVE to the Steppes. So Caucasoid DNA of R1a/R1b continuously diluted and is diluting as times passed / passing by.

EHG is native to Steppe. They had very little Mongoloid DNA, and lots of R1a and R1b.

 

[Tomenable]

I'm not talking about ANE, but about EHG.

But EHG can be modeled as a mix of ~60% WHG + ~40% ANE.

They did not have any other "Mongoloid" component. Only that ANE.

ANE admixture probably came with Siberian microblade producers:

See: "... the origin of microblade technology in Europe" (link):

http://www.quartaer.eu/pdfs/2010/2010_hartz.pdf