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Thread: When could possibly Ugrofinians have come to Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga
    East Euopean hunter/gatherers were already mixed with Mongoloid people from the East.
    You mean Ancient North Eurasians (ANE) from Siberia ???

    Modern Mongoloids - such as Han Chinese - do not have any ANE admixture.

    So ANE should rather be considered a separate group.

    ANE admixture is present in Native Americans, West Eurasians and Siberians.

    But it isn't present in classic Mongoloids such as Chinese, Koreans or Japanese.

    ==========================

    Huh? What are according to you the Eurasian Steppes?
    Sorry, I was talking only about the Western Steppe (to the West of the Altai).

    Map "A" shows the percent of East Asian mtDNA in the Bronze Age:
    Map "B" shows the frequency of East Asian mtDNA in Late Iron Age:


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    Huh? What are according to you the Eurasian Steppes?

    Sorry I forgot to add - I meant Eurasian Steppes to the west of Altai Mountains.

    To the east of the Altai - in Mongolia - was predominantly Mongoloid territory.

    The Altai mountains were the boundary until the end of the Bronze Age.

    See here:

    Map "A" shows the percent of East Asian mtDNA in the Bronze Age:
    Map "B" shows the frequency of East Asian mtDNA in the Iron Age:

    [IMG]
    http://s24.postimg.org/6td3u1p85/paz2.png[/IMG]

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    Until the end of the Bronze Age, the steppe Caucasoid-Mongoloid boundary was approximately here:
    (but some Caucasoid influence extended farther east too; and probably also the other way around):


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    Europoid = Caucasoid + Mongoloid?
    Euorpoid is not Caucasoid + Mongoloid. Europoid is just another name for Caucasoid.

    A "geographically neutral" name for it, is West Eurasian. And Mongoloid is East Asian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    You mean Ancient North Eurasians (ANE) from Siberia ???

    I mean East Euro H&G as EHG. EHG = WHG/CHG + Mongoloid (Uralo-Siberian)


    EHG is Europoid (partly Caucasoid, partly Mongoloid). Europoid = Caucasoid + Mongoloid.





    Inuktitut is a different name for Eskimos right? Saami and Finns in Northern Europe are as old as Inuit/Eskimos in Northern America
    " Saami, Finnish, Inuktitut: ancient cousins, once removed

    ... There, families whose migrations were ruled by the coming and going of glaciers during the Ice Age moved northward out of this area in successive waves until about 4,000 BC.
    Some headed west along the northern coasts and others went east, eventually crossing the Bering Strait to North America.
    They would end up living across the circumpolar region, with Inuit living from Alaska through to Canada and Greenland, Saami in Sápmi (northern Norway, Sweden, Finland and northern Russia) and Finns in Finland (or Suomi in Finnish.) ...

    ... You can still hear today’s version of that language in Nunavut — where Uralo-Siberian developed into Inuktitut — and in Finland — where that language survived as Saami and as Finnish.
    To me, someone who has lived in both regions and speaks Finnish (fairly fluently) and Inuktitut (not nearly as well) and can understand when people speak Saami (usually), the idea that there was once a united Uralo-Siberian family of languages makes sense.
    That's because the grammars of the three languages feel so similar (not to mention many shared cultural elements). ...

    ... More recent genetic tests do show Saami and Finns share more genetic markers linked with Asian populations in the Bering Strait and beyond than do any other European populations. ...

    ... The Origin and Genetic Background of the Sámi suggests that Saami and, to a lesser extent, Finns were able to maintain their separate language identities over the centuries due to their geographic isolation in the Arctic while other peoples were losing their languages to Indo-European speakers from the South.
    ... "


    for more : http://jgeorgeblog.com/2014/06/19/fi...-once-removed/

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    Mongoloid (Uralo-Siberian)

    That was not Mongoloid, but Ancient North Eurasian (ANE).

    Modern Mongoloids and North Africans do not have ANE (light green = very low or no ANE):

    Grey = data not included

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...9QSG52Z0k/view

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/0...-eurasian.html



    On the other hand, modern Kurds such as you and Poles such as me have quite a lot of it:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ANE)-admixture


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    Also Native Americans have ANE admixture (in addition to their Mongoloid ancestry).

    And this ANE is considered to be the Non-Mongoloid part (minority) of their ancestry:



    ANE ancestry (Native Americans have most, then Europeans and Indo-Iranians; Chinese people don't have it):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Mongoloid (Uralo-Siberian)

    That was not Mongoloid, but Ancient North Eurasian (ANE).

    Modern Mongoloids and North Africans do not have ANE (light green = very low or no ANE):
    I'm not talking about ANE, but about EHG. In the same manner as WHG and CHG. EHG were native ancient East European people. And I'm not saying that EHG were fully Mongoloid. They were Europoid, with that I do mean partly Caucasoid, partly Mongoloid...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Anno 2016 there're 5 million Fins. They speak a Finno-Ugric language. At least 61.5% of them belong to N1c1. That is more than 3 million of Fins are N1c1 !
    Lots of their ancestors had R1a. 80% of Irish have R1b, but 80% of their blood isn't from the ancestors who gave them R1b. Same for Finns and N1c1.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    What we do know that we've got Saami folks in Lapland, they are the oldest people in Europe. Saami predate Indo-European speakers. They speak Finno-Ugric and are Mongoloid / N1c1, distantly related to Eskimos.
    EHG is native to Saami territory. Saami are 30% EHG at most. The rest of their blood is EEF, WHG, and CHG. They have decent from the same Yamnaya-like and EEF/WHG-like populations all Europeans do. 3500 year old mtDNA from Saami country is unlike modern Saami. So, no Saami aren't ultra-ingenious to Saami country. They, like Norse, are descended of new people who came from further south 5,000-4,000 years ago. Saami are native to their country in modern times, but they aren't native when you go back 5,000 years. The reason Saami are viewed as these romantic natives, is because they've been conquered by Norway, Sweden, and Finland in modern times. But if anything Swedes are just as native to Scandinavia as Saami are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Corded Ware folks were very multicultural. They had very, very diverse haplogroups, native I1, I2, N1c1, but mostly recent European type of R1a. Which came from the East. Corded Ware was also partly Mongoloid, but not as much as people of Finland nowadays.
    There's nothing that suggests East Asian blood in Corded Ware. EHG looks like it had a little bit, so I guess Corded Ware had a melted down version of that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Caucasoid = the name says it all. CAUCASUS, Caucasoid (CHG, Gedrosia) was native to 'Caucasus Mountains' / 'West Asia'.
    CHG was discovered after the term Caucasian was made. There's no special relationship between Caucasus Mountains and Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    R1* also evolved in West Asia / Iranian Plateau. Since R1* evolved in West Asia it has to be Caucasoid. Original R1b that migrated from 'West Asia'/Maykop into Yamnaya Horzion was Caucasoid / Gedrosia type. The same can be said about R1a. R1a from the Iranian Plateau was Caucasoid/ Gedrosia.
    What is Caucasoid? We don't know. It's a term for Europeans or West Eurasians, that's it. There's no exact definition of what it is. So, saying because R1* evolved in West Asia it has to be Caucasoid, doesn't make sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    But when R1b & R1a entered into the Steppes, R1a and R1b mixed heavily with Mongoloid DNA. Because Mongoloid DNA is NATIVE to the Steppes. So Caucasoid DNA of R1a/R1b continuously diluted and is diluting as times passed / passing by.
    EHG is native to Steppe. They had very little Mongoloid DNA, and lots of R1a and R1b.

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    I'm not talking about ANE, but about EHG.
    But EHG can be modeled as a mix of ~60% WHG + ~40% ANE.

    They did not have any other "Mongoloid" component. Only that ANE.

    ANE admixture probably came with Siberian microblade producers:

    See: "... the origin of microblade technology in Europe" (link):

    http://www.quartaer.eu/pdfs/2010/2010_hartz.pdf

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    @Goga,

    I'm not trying to get you angry. I've got nothing against you. It's you create definitions(Eupoid=Caucasoid+Mongoloid) that aren't proven to exist, then base your theories based on those definitions. And you put character labels on people, like Saami are somehow ultra-ingenious. These are the root of your incorrect theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Lots of their ancestors had R1a. 80% of Irish have R1b, but 80% of their blood isn't from the ancestors who gave them R1b. Same for Finns and N1c1.

    EHG is native to Saami territory. Saami are 30% EHG at most. The rest of their blood is EEF, WHG, and CHG. They have decent from the same Yamnaya-like and EEF/WHG-like populations all Europeans do. 3500 year old mtDNA from Saami country is unlike modern Saami. So, no Saami aren't ultra-ingenious to Saami country. They, like Norse, are descended of new people who came from further south 5,000-4,000 years ago. Saami are native to their country in modern times, but they aren't native when you go back 5,000 years. The reason Saami are viewed as these romantic natives, is because they've been conquered by Norway, Sweden, and Finland in modern times. But if anything Swedes are just as native to Scandinavia as Saami are.

    There's nothing that suggests East Asian blood in Corded Ware. EHG looks like it had a little bit, so I guess Corded Ware had a melted down version of that.

    CHG was discovered after the term Caucasian was made. There's no special relationship between Caucasus Mountains and Europeans.

    What is Caucasoid? We don't know. It's a term for Europeans or West Eurasians, that's it. There's no exact definition of what it is. So, saying because R1* evolved in West Asia it has to be Caucasoid, doesn't make sense.

    EHG is native to Steppe. They had very little Mongoloid DNA, and lots of R1a and R1b.
    I gave my answers already in my 2 previous posts. I'm not going to do it again.

    The name 'Caucasian' is older than me and you combined. People used already that word before DNA. And the name 'Caucasian' is derived from the 'Caucasus region', period. This is a FACT!


    All I want to say is that Saami in their homeland Lapland (Scandinavia) predate Indo-European language. Like Finns, they are mostly N1c1.


    Europeans are not fully Caucasoid. They are Europoid, which means they are = Caucasoid + Mongoloid.


    EHG is also not fully Caucasoid, but Europoid. Partly Mongoloid, partly Caucasoid.


    The more R1* in EHG, the less Mongoloid it is. So EHG to the East is more Mongoloid than EHG to the West. That's because original R1* was from the Iranian Plateau and was Caucasoid...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @Goga,

    I'm not trying to get you angry. I've got nothing against you. It's you create definitions(Eupoid=Caucasoid+Mongoloid) that aren't proven to exist, then base your theories based on those definitions. And you put character labels on people, like Saami are somehow ultra-ingenious. These are the root of your incorrect theories.
    Once again and the last time:

    WHG = Caucasoid
    CHG = Caucasoid

    EHG = Caucasoid + Mongoloid = Europoid . Native to NorthEastern Europe.

    You can say that native Finno-Ugric speakers of Europe are somehow Europoid (Mongoloid + Caucasoid). Because they ARE native to Europe, and therefore they are hardcore Europeans. Finns and Saami are purest Europeans, even they have Mongoloid deep ancestry and Eskimos from Alaska are their relatives. Europeans are party Mongoloid. Mongoloid DNA is part of Europe. Why can't you understand this? Mongoloid is not only East Asian, but also Northern European!

    Saami and Finns are 'ultra-ingenious' to their homeland (Scandinavia) as Eskimos to Alaska (Northern America)! And they are relatives. How great can it be ?!

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    For the last time and I'm gone:

    Mongoloid DNA is native to NorthEast Europe. Mongoloid DNA is part of EHG. If I say that some Europeans are partly Mongoloid, I'm not saying they are not native. The more Mongoloid DNA some native NorthernEuropean folks have, the more native they are to Europe. Saami & Finns have more Mongoloid DNA in them than other Scandinavians, therefore they are more native to Europe. Don't you see? Mongoloid DNA is part of North-East Europe. Mongoloid DNA is part of EHG. EHG is Europoid means Caucasoid + Mongoloid...


    " ... The Origin and Genetic Background of the Sámi suggests that Saami and, to a lesser extent, Finns were able to maintain their separate language identities over the centuries due to their geographic isolation in the Arctic while other peoples were losing their languages to Indo-European speakers from the South. ... "

    for more : http://jgeorgeblog.com/2014/06/19/fi...-once-removed/

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Eskimos are not very indigenous to their lands. For example, Eskimos came to Greenland later than Vikings.

    Eskimos represented the Thule culture and they replaced previous native inhabitants - the Dorset culture:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorset_culture

    Maps:

    Dorset people = green
    Vikings = dark red
    Eskimos = dark blue


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Goga, this post pretty useless as your mind is set but I still want to make clear that Inuits are not linguistic or genetic relatives of Saamis.
    In this paper ‘Genomic study of the Ket: a Paleo-Eskimo-related ethnic group with significant ancient North Eurasian ancestry,’
    they “found that: (1) Kets and Selkups constitute a clade closely related to Nganasans; (2) Nganasans, Kets, Selkups, and Yukaghirs form a cluster of populations most closely related to Paleo-Eskimos in Siberia (not considering indigenous populations of Chukotka and Kamchatka).
    According to Euclidean distances in the ten-dimensional space of principal components on the HumanOrigins dataset, Kets were a closer population to Saqqaq than Nganasans, Selkups, Yukaghirs, and the other populations.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750364/

    Paleo-Eskimo, modern Eskimos, Kets and Selkups are all yDNA Q folks. Yukaghirs have equal amounts of Q, C2 and N1c. Nganasans are 92% N1b and 8% C2 and Q (?). The common yDNA seems to be rather Q.

    In my opinion, Eskimos and Paleo-Eskimos are Q folks and N has nothing to do with it. Moreover, Nganasan N1b is very recent. TMRCA of Arctic N1b (N2a1a) is only c. 3500 years. Saqqaq was 2000 BC in Greenland, and arctic N1b probably arose somewhere between northern Volga and South Siberia c. 1500 BC, so there is not any direct relationship with Eskimos.

    I cannot post any image snips but if you are interested, N1b haplotree is available here p. 29 (http://genome.cshlp.org/content/supp...al_Figures.pdf)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This graph shows, that Mongols from Mongolia are ca. 90% Mongoloid and 10% Caucasoid - not 100% Mongoloid (like Han Chinese):

    I think this caucasoid admixture even in Mongolia and Kazakhistan is due to Tocharian admixture. They have disappeared as a civilization but remained a lot of their genetics.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think this ANE map is better


    And this map of 450 ad as well

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    Hauteville,

    Tocharians were not present in Kazakhstan or Mongolia. That admixture is due to Scythians and other Iranic peoples.

    Tocharians were in Xinjiang, where Uyghurs live today. But Iranic-speakers were also there (and some still are).

    ====================

    Andronovo culture (which I mentioned above) was Caucasoid, and they spoke Indo-Iranic languages. Here is a map:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

    https://archive.org/details/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranians

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...sion-%28Map%29

    And this article is about a fully Caucasoid man found in North-Eastern Mongolia - he was one of the Xiongnu peoples:

    http://volgagermanbrit.us/documents/Kim_et_al.pdf



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    Hauteville,

    Tocharians were not present in Kazakhstan or Mongolia. That admixture is due to Scythians and other Iranic peoples.

    Tocharians were in Xinjiang, where Uyghurs live today. But Iranic-speakers were also there (and some still are).
    Xinjiang (or Uyghuristan) in fact, it borders with Kazakhstan and Mongolia.
    I think Scythians and other Iranics lived there were really related with Tocharians.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes, they were related to each other, you are right.

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    I checked Supplementary File 9 of the paper I referred to, and found out that Nganasans have 5% C2 and 3% O. Nenets have 1% O and 1,5% Q and the rest is divided between N1b and N1c. Selkups have 66.4% Q, 19% R1a, 6% R1b, 6.9% N and 1.5% C.

    In any case, Nganasans are genetically very different from Nenets and Kets. Nganasans are close to Tungusic people who are mostly C2 and often lack Q. However, Tungusic people and Nganasans also seem to have true Southeast Asian admixture as they have yDNA O. Nganasans surely have a different history from other Uralic-speaking groups. Uralics have obviously mixed with Kets and Selkups who are more related to Eskimos via their yDNA Q.

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    Selkups have 66.4% Q, 19% R1a, 6% R1b, 6.9% N and 1.5% C.
    Interesting - what kinds of subclades of R1a and R1b do they have?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Yes, they were related to each other, you are right.
    Yes. If you remember on K6 of Lazaridis also some Native Americans scored some Caucasoid admixture like Mongols and Kazakhs, maybe some of them joined with Siberians and moved to America in the year of proto-Amerindian migrations.

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    Tomenable, according to Tomsk Journal Ling & Antropo. 2013.1(1), southern Selkup R1b is R1b-M73, which is interesting. The paper does not say anything specific about R1a1, but on the basis of R1b-M73, their R1a1 could be the same as R1a1 of Turkic-speaking groups.

    (http://www.academia.edu/4442616/Toms...0%A3._1_1_2013)

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