When could possibly Ugrofinians have come to Europe?

[Ukko]

Read those and we can start discussing about Baltic Finns and Uralics.

Before that there is not much point.

 

[ThirdTerm]

Y-DNA haplogroups of the Finns are N1c (59%), I1a (28%), R1a (5%) and R1b (3.5%). Haplogroup N1c entered Europe around 12,000–14,000 years ago from southern Siberia. Haplogroup N1c is also found among the Nenets (45%) and the Finns are genetically related to the Siberians but the Siberian proportion in the Finnish genome is only 20-30% overall. The Finns' mtDNA haplogroups are HV (36%), HV0+V (7%), J (6%), U5 (20%), W (10%), X (1.3%) and Z (1.5%). Of these Finnish mtDNA haplogroups, only X and Z are from Asia and the Finns' maternal ancestry is around 98% European. Haplogroups U5 and I1a entered Scandinavia with the retreat of ice sheets from Europe around 10,000 years ago and N1c men from Siberia arrived Finland around the same time, thus interbreeding with U5 and I1a women. Haplogroups HV and V reached Scandinavia much later from 9,000 BCE to 3,000 BCE from the Near East, which may be associated with IE migrations.

Recently, the use of mitochondrial "mtDNA" (female lineage) and Y-chromosomal "Y-DNA" (male lineage) DNA-markers in tracing back the history of human populations has been started. For the paternal and maternal genetic lineages of Finnish people and other peoples, see, e.g., the National Geographic Genographic Project and the Suomi DNA-projekti. Haplogroup U5 is estimated to be the oldest mtDNA haplogroup in Europe and is found in the whole of Europe at a low frequency, but seems to be found in significantly higher levels among Finns, Estonians and the Sami people.[36] With regard to the Y-chromosome, the most common haplogroups of the Finns are N1c (59%), I1a (28%), R1a (5%) and R1b (3.5%).[37] Haplogroup N1c, which is found mainly in a few countries in Europe (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Russia), is a subgroup of the haplogroup N (Y-DNA) distributed across northern Eurasia and estimated in a 2006 study to be 10,000–20,000 years old and suggested to have entered Europe about 12,000–14,000 years ago from Asia.[38]

The great intra-Finnish (FST) distance between Western Finns and Eastern Finns[39][40] supports the theorized dual origin of the Finns[43] based on the regional distribution of the two major Y-DNA haplogroups, N1c in Eastern Finland and I1a in Western Finland.[37] Finns show very little if any Mediterranean and African genes but on the other hand almost 10% of Finnish genes seem to be shared with Siberian populations. Nevertheless, more than 80% of Finnish genes are from a single ancient Northeastern European population, while most Europeans are a mixture of 3 or more principal components.[44]

 

[Ukko]

Y-DNA haplogroups of the Finns are N1c (59%), I1a (28%), R1a (5%) and R1b (3.5%). Haplogroup N1c entered Europe around 12,000–14,000 years ago from southern Siberia. Haplogroup N1c is also found among the Nenets (45%) and the Finns are genetically related to the Siberians but the Siberian proportion in the Finnish genome is only 20-30% overall. The Finns' mtDNA haplogroups are HV (36%), HV0+V (7%), J (6%), U5 (20%), W (10%), X (1.3%) and Z (1.5%). Of these Finnish mtDNA haplogroups, only X and Z are from Asia and the Finns' maternal ancestry is around 98% European. Haplogroups U5 and I1a entered Scandinavia with the retreat of ice sheets from Europe around 10,000 years ago and N1c men from Siberia arrived Finland around the same time, thus interbreeding with U5 and I1a women. Haplogroups HV and V reached Scandinavia much later from 9,000 BCE to 3,000 BCE from the Near East.

And there is no such ethnicity as Russian or Russian nation for that matter, so go drink some vodka for your sorrow.

 

[Kristiina]

All the people were shorter during the Middle Ages. You should study the table 1 here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X14000665
The tallest nations in Europe are, excluding western and southern Slavs who are clearly the tallest in Europe:
2. Netherlands
4. Iceland
5. Sweden yDNA N 8.3%
6. Lithuania yDNA N 43%
8. Estonia yDNA 40.6%
10. Denmark
12. Germany
13. Latvia yDNA N 42%
14. Norway yDNA N 3.8%
16. Austria
17. Belgium
18. Finland yDNA N 63%
19. Ireland
20. Scotland
21. France
23. England
However, Wikipedia site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height) gives a higher stature to Finns (measured height 178.9 cm and 180.7 cm, so I do not know how representative the figure used in that table is with respect to other figures). People have been growing all the time, so it matters how old the data is.
In any case, yDNA N1c-bearing nations are among the highest in the world. If there is a correlation between a yDNA haplogroup and height, it correlates with yDNA I. By the way, Saami who are often referred in to in this context carry clearly more yDNA I, R1a and R1b than Finns. So using your stupid logic, their presumed higher admixture rate with Swedes has instead lowered their stature with respect to Finns. IMO, if Finns and Saamis have some Siberian short-stature genes, it is not due to yDNA N.

Saami yDNA R1b 3.9%, R1a1 11.0%, I1 31.4%, N1c 47.2%
Finnish yDNA R1b 3.7%, R1a1 7%, I1 29%, N1c 58%

" the Siberian proportion in the Finnish genome is only 20-30% overall "
Thirdterm, where do you get this figure of 20-30%? I would like to see your source. To my knowledge, the Siberian percentage ranges between 4 and 10 percent in Finns, and maybe 10-25% in Saamis.

 

[Kristiina]

I see that you are from Poland, Russia and USA. According to Wikipedia article, all these countries are below Finland in terms of height:
Finland 180.7 cm, age under 25, 2010-2011, measured
Poland 178.7 cm, age 18, 2010, measured
US Non-Hispanic whites 178.4 cm, 20-39, 2007-2010, measured
Russia 177.2 cm, age 24, 2004, measured
All Americans 176.3 cm, age 20-29, 2007-2010, measured

It looks like the average Finnish height of 178.9 cm, age 25-34, is from 1994.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

 

[Rethel]

He is lying in the height and population size and settlement regions for starters,

But your fairy tales, about finnic blond masterrace "are true"
ever and always, even if science does not support you ideas.

Population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Finland#Historical_population_of_Finland
1150 AD 20-40 thousands.

Hight: http://www.kansallismuseo.fi/fi/kansallismuseo/opetus/opetuspaketit/esihistoria/tietoa/tulostettava3

So, get away from me, you manchurian lier and slanderer...

Even your Ukko bear indoeuropean name Perkele,
and your country IE names Suomi aka Finland....

 

[Rethel]

Haplogroup N1c entered Europe around 12,000–14,000 years ago from southern Siberia.

Probably much later, as XX century's theories claimed about 2000-4000 years ago.

All northeuropean N has the last common ancestor living only 4500 y.a.
(~2500 pne) who could still live in Syberia as well as his close descendants,
so logically, some time took them to get into Finland in such number, which
could left this ~8-10% of mongolian autosomal.

The Finns' mtDNA haplogroups are HV (36%), HV0+V (7%), J (6%), U5 (20%), W (10%), X (1.3%) and Z (1.5%). Of these Finnish mtDNA haplogroups, only X and Z are from Asia and the Finns' maternal ancestry is around 98% European.

It is very important information. Thanks.

 

[Rethel]

So using your stupid logic, their presumed higher admixture rate with Swedes has instead lowered their stature with respect to Finns.

Your logic is even stupider, if you think, that height is bind with hg.

Height is bind with other genes, which are in general autosomal combination.
This characteristic was bear by steppe (IE) people who entered Finland some
5500 years ago, long before forfather of present day N bearers even begen
to exist... they bring also fair pigmentation and lactose tolerance to this part
of the world, and they were generally R1 people.

 

[Ukko]

But your fairy tales, about finnic blond masterrace "are true"
ever and always, even if science does not support you ideas.

Population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Finland#Historical_population_of_Finland
1150 AD 20-40 thousands.

Hight: http://www.kansallismuseo.fi/fi/kansallismuseo/opetus/opetuspaketit/esihistoria/tietoa/tulostettava3

So, get away from me, you manchurian lier and slanderer...

Even your Ukko bear indoeuropean name Perkele,
and your country IE names Suomi aka Finland....

So Finland had more warriors per population than rest of Northern Europe in 1150 AD?
Swedes and Novgorodians record them attacking with thousands of men, most of the population fit for war raiding neighbours.
To be fair we have even women buried with swords so they must have taken them also along.

The overall number of Late Iron Ageswords in Finland is relatively high in comparison with neighbouring areas and with regard to the assumption that the areas of settlement in Late Iron Age Finland were not a major part of the trade networks but lay instead outside the main trading routes. In addition, the number of decorated blades is similarly high, although comparisons are difficult due to the lack of systematic studies elsewhere. Blades with ferrous inlays were not rarities in Late Iron Age Finland but quite common, contrary to traditional beliefs.

http://www.doria.fi/handle/10024/119919

You also keep bringing up the Leväluhta bodies and their height estimates that have changed from the previous ones.
Their ethnicity is not even certain yet, their DNA is being studied

You forgot Viro aka Estonia also has an IE etymology, Finnish word for slave, orja, comes from aryan.
Just like slave comes from slav.

I have seen the Rus as they came on their merchant journeys and encamped by the Itil. I have never seen more perfect physical specimens, tall as date palms, blond and ruddy; they wear neither tunics nor caftans, but the men wear a garment which covers one side of the body and leaves a hand free. Each man has an axe, a sword, and a knife, and keeps each by him at all times. The swords are broad and grooved, of Frankish sort. Each woman wears on either breast a box of iron, silver, copper, or gold; the value of the box indicates the wealth of the husband. Each box has a ring from which depends a knife. The women wear neck-rings of gold and silver. Their most prized ornaments are green glass beads. They string them as necklaces for their women.

As for the Rus, they live on an island ... that takes three days to walk round and is covered with thick undergrowth and forests; it is most unhealthy. ... They harry the Slavs, using ships to reach them; they carry them off as slaves and…sell them. They have no fields but simply live on what they get from the Slav's lands. ... When a son is born, the father will go up to the newborn baby, sword in hand; throwing it down, he says, "I shall not leave you with any property: You have only what you can provide with this weapon."

 

[Ukko]

So I got a warning for telling the etymology for the word slave in different languages.

But this Pole who thinks he is related to Ragnar is still a member for posting his tales of Manchurian reindeer herders.

A good reminder why Finns should get the hell out of EU and keep to themselves.

 

[Ukko]

I see that you are from Poland, Russia and USA. According to Wikipedia article, all these countries are below Finland in terms of height:
Finland 180.7 cm, age under 25, 2010-2011, measured
Poland 178.7 cm, age 18, 2010, measured
US Non-Hispanic whites 178.4 cm, 20-39, 2007-2010, measured
Russia 177.2 cm, age 24, 2004, measured
All Americans 176.3 cm, age 20-29, 2007-2010, measured

It looks like the average Finnish height of 178.9 cm, age 25-34, is from 1994.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

Fiinnihs average male height is 181+ and for females 170+, this was three years back with a larger study.

We measure them during school and in the army, the stats ae reliable.

 

[Rethel]

Swedes and Novgorodians record them attacking with thousands of men,

So it is now understandable, why in 1150 so few people remained

Weak tactic and great casualties... and declining of nonN subclades also...

 

[Ukko]

So it is now understandable, why in 1150 so few people remained

Weak tactic and great casualties... and declining of nonN subclades also...

 

[arvistro]

The Language Contact Situation in Prehistoric Northeastern Europe

https://www.academia.edu/20252178/The_Language_Contact_Situation_in_Prehistoric_Northeastern_Europe

On Germanic-Saami contacts and Saami prehistory

http://www.academia.edu/1959273/On_Germanic-Saami_contacts_and_Saami_prehistory

Formation of Proto-Finnic – an archaeological scenario from theBronze Age – Early Iron Age

http://www.oulu.fi/sites/default/files/content/CIFU12-BookOfAbstracts_4.pdf

Spatiotemporal Contributions to the Linguistic Prehistory of Fennoscandia

​https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/135714

De situ linguarum fennicarum aetatis ferreae, Pars I

http://www.helsinki.fi/folkloristiikka/English/RMN/RMN_9_Winter_2014-2015.pdf#page=64

Kaleva and his Sons from Kalanti –On the Etymology of Certain Names in Finnic Mythology

http://www.linguistics.fi/julkaisut/SKY2012/Heikkila.pdf

THE MIGRATION PERIOD, PRE-VIKING AGE, AND VIKING AGE IN ESTONIA

http://www.academia.edu/2237217/THE_MIGRATION_PERIOD_PRE-VIKING_AGE_AND_VIKING_AGE_IN_ESTONIA

Marks of Fire, Value and Faith. Swords with Ferrous Inlays in Finland during the Late Iron Age (ca. 700–1200 AD)

http://www.doria.fi/handle/10024/119919



Estonian Journal of Archaeology


http://www.kirj.ee/archaeology


The Journal Virittäjä

http://www.kotikielenseura.fi/english/index.html

This is Gold and must read on Baltic Finns linguistics.
Good to have it in one post.

 

[Ukko]

This is Gold and must read on Baltic Finns linguistics.
Good to have it in one post.

Thanks, it was just a quick and angry response for that guy.

Here is more gold for you, you deserve it as you are actually interested.

What do we know about the prehistory of languages and cultures in areas, such as Northern Europe that do not have written documents or large extinct cities? For decades, archaeology and linguistics, two disciplines weaving together multiple interdisciplinary aspects have fostered a dialogue focusing on cultural and linguistic networks, mobility and contacts between people. This book sheds new light on cultural diffusion and language change in prehistoric Northern Europe with special emphasis on the northern Baltic Sea area. The rise of agriculture, identification of new cultural waves in terms of language are topics that outline the early prehistory in the North. The book contains twelve articles by linguists and archaeologists, evidence drawn from various Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages, and up-to-date insights into the research of prehistoric Northern Europe.


Riho Grünthal: Introduction: an interdisciplinary perspective on prehistoric Northern Europe [PDF]
Mika Lavento: Cultivation among hunter-gatherers in Finland – evidence of activated connections? [PDF]
Charlotte Damm: From Entities to Interaction: Replacing pots and people with networks of transmission [PDF]
Luobbal Sámmol Sámmol Ánte (Ante Aikio): An essay on Saami ethnolinguistic prehistory [PDF]
Asko Parpola: Formation of the Indo-European and Uralic (Finno-Ugric) language families in the light of archaeology: Revised and integrated 'total' correlations [PDF]
Tiit-Rein Viitso: Early Metallurgy in Language: The History of Metal Names in Finnic [PDF]
Karl Pajusalu: Phonological Innovations of the Southern Finnic Languages [PDF]
Petri Kallio: The Prehistoric Germanic Loanword Strata in Finnic [PDF]
Guus Kroonen: Non-Indo-European root nouns in Germanic: evidence in support of the Agricultural Substrate Hypothesis [PDF]
Santeri Junttila: The prehistoric context of the oldest contacts between Baltic and Finnic languages [PDF]
Riho Grünthal: Baltic loanwords in Mordvin [PDF]
Willem Vermeer: Why Baba-Yaga? Substratal phonetics and restoration of velars subject to the Progressive Palatalization in Russian/Belorussian and adjacent areas (appr. 600–900 CE) [PDF]

http://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266.html

 

[Ukko]

Æsir



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir

I suggest that Proto-Finnic was introduced to the Baltic area by warrior traders of the Akozino-Akhmylovo culture, who brought Akozino-Mälar axesto southern and southwestern Finland, the Åland islands and, in so great numbers that it must have involved the movement of a fair amount of people, to the Mälaren area of eastern Sweden around 800–500 BCE (Figure 7). This main route along which the Akozino-Mälar axes went westwards probably followedthe same waterways as the Vikings later, but another trade route was through the Daugava valley mentioned earlier while speaking of South Estonian as the Finnic language that was the first to separate from the proto language

On the basis of the associated archaeological evidence detailed below, I suggest that the “immigration of Finnic” was not from Estonia to SW Finland as has been thought, but in the opposite direction, taking the Proto-Finnic language to Estonia (Estonian)and then further to Courland (Livonian) and to Latvia (the Finnic superstratum whose assimilation to the local Baltic speakers led to the differentiation of Lithuanian and Latvian).

The tarand graves have figured prominently in the hypothesis of the immigration of Finnic speakers from Estonia around the beginning of the Christian era. Earlier only “typical tarand graves” of the Roman Iron Age were known,but now as many as twenty-six “early tarand graves” have been partially or fully excavated in Estonia, mostly in the coastal areas of northern and western Estonia and on the islands. They are dated to c. 800–400 BCE, and “similar graves occur in south-western Finland, the eastern part of central Sweden, and in northern Latvia and Courland”

The Akozino-Mälar axes were in Finland, Estonia and Sweden copied in iron (Asplund 2008: 245–246). Iron was at that time rare and highly valued, and the technology of its production was kept a well-guarded secret. Such esoteric knowledge, along with exclusive access to prestige goods, which were symbols of rank and power, have often guaranteed the elites their position in chiefdom-level societies (which normally involve populations of thousands or tens of thousands).The chiefdom system is usually connected with warring, and the Netted Ware cultures of Early Iron Age Russia were both very well armed

The virtual identity of Proto-West-Uralic and Proto-Uralic suggests that Proto-Uralic has spread fast, in all likelihood in the same way as was above suggested for the migration of Proto-Finnic from the Mid-Volga to southern Finland(and to eastern central Sweden, where the Finnic language of the immigrants was assimilated into Proto-Germanic), namely through the elite dominance of incoming warrior traders.

http://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266_parpola.pdf

 

[arvistro]

Parpola's work seemed a bit shady on various matters.
Might be small nitpicking from my side, but having Proto-Baltic speakers in South Finland 500bce seems a bit far fetched.
Also
"Taking the Proto-Finnic language to Estonia (Estonian)and then further to Courland (Livonian) and to Latvia (the Finnic superstratum whose assimilation to the local Baltic speakers led to the differentiation of Lithuanian and Latvian)." is incorrect.
Diff bw LT and LV have many factors - Livonian substrate, Germanic superstrate, pre-Order Krivichi influence on what turned out Latvian vs later Slavic (Polish, Belorussian) influence on what became Lithuanian.
N superstrate which clearly shows in genes was something that took place at proto-Baltic or proto-East-Baltic level, because Latvian tribes represent (80/90% of LV N) only one branch of "Baltic N" (m2773) namely the šo called West Baltic from your tree above. Whereas LT tribes have all of them.
But for Finnic superstrate what is lacking is any evidence of Finnic superstrate loanwords into Lithuanian. The rulership terms are mostly Germanic in both Baltic and Finnic languages (kunigaitis, kunigas, etc).

 

[werner]

And what for a population spoken paleosibirian like Ket?
Your genetic list is not correct, Ket-People had Haplogroup N and Q from mongolian invasion and asiatic R1b from hunnic invasion and lot more. The point is, N is a child of NO*-Group and the Language is connect to a language of O-Speaker from Tibet. They wandering with her language along sibiria about the route of jenissey river to north europe. It seems Ket is the origin language of Haplogroup N, not Uralic. Uralic was addopted by N from local population at Ural mountains.
But when it is true, what for a group had spoken uralic?

 

[Norvila]

It was theory back in 19-20c races has some typical skulls.
This was denied later skulls changes because of the living conditions during several generations.
Human height changes even faster as we can see on our kids

 

[werner]

It was theory back in 19-20c races has some typical skulls.

Nonsense, this theory is new based of ADNA of Haplogroup N and her connect to Ket-Region Archeology.