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Thread: The Italian Genome-Fiorito et al 2015

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @Angela,

    I don't know exactly how IBD works. I'm pretty sure overall closeness can make IBD scores high. So, that can help explain longer-IBD segments with Europeans than any West Asians. IBD doesn't support West Asian ancestry but ADMIXTURE and PCA does. A way to test if there is Balkan ancestry is get IBD stats from Balkans, this study only had Romanians. I think I might ask for some people online to do IBD stats this study didn't do.
    IBDs are notoriously imprecise. They can't even assert for sure the direction of the gene-flow. So by looking at IBDs alone you can reach conclusions as dubious as North African admixture in Italy and France being possibly around 200 years old and in Iberia about 300 years old (this is what some of the authors of Botigue et al. concluded by placing their faith in IBDs.) Conclusions based on IBDs are often in contradiction to more standard autosomal genetic analysis like ADMIXTURE, as you yourself have noticed above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Let's try to focus shall we? THERE ARE NO SAMPLES IN THE STUDY FROM CAMPANIA OR APULIA OR INDEED FROM ANY PART OF CALABRIA OTHER THAN REGGIO.


    It doesn't analyze those areas, so no real conclusions can be drawn based on this study as to how much North African they would show.

    What we can do is look at other studies of southern Italians, studies both academic and private. Those studies SUGGEST that these other southern Italian areas would have some amount of North African, but perhaps on a south/north decreasing cline.

    As to your prior post, why wouldn't someone from the Abruzzi place next to southern Italians? They are southern Italians, from everything I've ever seen of their genetic make-up.

    I agree that in a place as diverse genetically as Italy they should have had more samples.
    BUT HAVE YOU READ THIS QUOTE FROM THE SUPPLEMENTARY TABLE? In Basilicata there is no especially high North African admixture whatever, it's actually on par with the rest of Italy. Only Sardinia, Sicily and Calabria (Reggio only) have above noise level of North African admixture.

    "The North-African component is detectable in the Italian sample, especially in Sicily, Calabria, and Sardinia and it is distinguishable from random noise: 5.42% (2.99% - 7.85%) in South Italy and 4.66% (2.22% - 7.11%) in Sardinia. "

    Now feel free to post those academic studies which found out these supposed North African admixture in Apulia and Campania.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Sorry but if even Iberians are closer genetically to Romanians, than Northern Italians are to Southern Italians, then we can't say it is "just geography". It correlates with geography only as far as different ancestral ethnic groups settled different geographical areas...Geographical distance from Iberia to Romania is many times greater, than from Southern Italy to Northern Italy...And you also wrote, that there is (or was until ca. 1950) almost no IBD sharing between Southern and Northern Italy - why?
    The authors have oversampled extreme Southerners like those from Reggio Calabria who only make 0.5% of S.Italian population. They also didn't get any samples from intermediate regions like Campania, Umbria, Abruzzo, etc... who actually fill the "void" between the North and the South like shown in the De Gaetano et al 2012. In Nelis et al 2009, Southern Italians from Apulia were genetically as close to N.Italians from Piedmont, as Northern Germans (from Schleswig-Holstein) were to Southern Germans (from Bavaria). Germany has also East-West differences (not present in Italy) that seem to be even more prominent like shown in Heath et al. (2008).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    This is Fire-Haired's comment from a duplicate thread he started.


    very interesting;
    the differences correlate with geography, yes, but they are genetically far more strong than geographically distances! (what I had from BritainDNA said the same). I think someone in the abstract I've seen remarked this: more "distance" between North and South Italy than between North Italy and Spain or even France, than between France and G-B and so on... for Sicily I think the differences between N-W and S or NE confirm History (pre-Roman first imput from North (akin to Ligurians?) and Norman period, even if other events I ignore could also explain that;
    I need to go deeper but I rely upon other forumers, I have not the full paper; thanks all the way.
    the Toscana/Lazzio proximity seems, as said here, an "etruscan" imput: not by force a specially exotic DNA, but the mean mix the Etruscan dynasties can have spred with them in their extension in Central Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    We already discussed about it many times. We can't completely rule out that there was a small migration of a supposedly religious elite from Anatolia related to the Etruscans without a substantial genetic impact, but it is now extremely clear that the vast majority of the Tuscans are not descended from this but from Villanovians who were part of the Etruscan ethnos.

    I'm more and more pushed to think like you about this. Something "exotic" occurred there, but was of little genetic imput, spite a cultural one of importance

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    As to any "replacement" of northwest Anatolians, I'm not aware of any such thing. I think the average "Turkic" admixture is under 10% in Turkey, which is hardly replacement anywhere, and the areas with the highest admixtures are actually not in Aegean Turkey if my memory serves. If someone has figures from different areas of Turkey I'd be very interested to see them.
    Note "Turkic" admixture =/= Turkish expansion. The Turkish expansion brought most likely more of the Teal element with them than East Eurasian admixture. The modern Turks probably have around 20% of real "Turkic" as from Central Asia-Siberia ancestry, but a whole lot of more Iranic one rising up to as much as 50%. It is most likely that the Seldjuks who reached Anatolia from Iran were yet already pred. West Eurasian and akine to modern Turkmens from Turkmenistan.

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    it concerns a trread in Y-haplos too:
    the "second mesolithic" (specific trapezes tools) of Thomas PERRIN could be a clue concerning first apparition of Y-E-V13 ancestors into Europe. Spite some remote shapes links with Ukraina, it seems the source of this technical wave, fleeing the advance in Neoltihic after its first arrrival in Southern Europe, could be linked to Capsian and come from the North-East-Algerian-North-West-Tunisian region, before pass at first step into Sicily, Southern Italy and Adriatic merging lands of Montenegro/Dalmatia around 7000 BC or a before.
    this technic expanded after (6200 BC) into Cantabrica, Valencia, Asturias, Eastern Lombardia, Venetia, french Provence, Southern Brittany, Portugal,before reaching North: Îe-de-France, Picardy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark after 5300 BC, at the same time it disppearred progressively from Mediterranea. a first demic introduction could very well be possible, even if in it extensions, some local profiles could be the result of acculturation more than colonization. It seems too the climatic deterioration around the 6000BC has seen a change in the settlement localizations (Mediterranea dryer and colder, but population climbing in mountains (!?!) when on the Atlantic the populations got rather down near the coasts.
    my hypothesis is fragile but could explain some auDNA results concernins Italy and even Yougoslavia (NorthAfrican traces mixed with more Near-Eastern ones?) + Y-E1b more variated in Western Yugoslavia than in East Balkans + apparition of E-V13 in Iberia in very Early Neolithic for West and so on... the track N-Africa to Italy through Sicily is sensible I think. surely the first groups have more immediate upstreams Y-E1b than typical E-V13: it deserves a deeper analysis of subclades I cannot do here; all that doesn't explain, maybe, the all Y-EV13 found in Italy or elsewhere in Europe because EV13 can have espanded in some cases after having been incorporated among Neolithic people, or more later during metals ages, after some demographic boom. But my if hypothesi was true, it could confirm the anteriority (and its "mesolithic" charactere) of Y-EV13 and upstreams in Southern Europe compared to Neolithic advance. Let's wait for proofs!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    it concerns a trread in Y-haplos too:
    the "second mesolithic" (specific trapezes tools) of Thomas PERRIN could be a clue concerning first apparition of Y-E-V13 ancestors into Europe. Spite some remote shapes links with Ukraina, it seems the source of this technical wave, fleeing the advance in Neoltihic after its first arrrival in Southern Europe, could be linked to Capsian and come from the North-East-Algerian-North-West-Tunisian region, before pass at first step into Sicily, Southern Italy and Adriatic merging lands of Montenegro/Dalmatia around 7000 BC or a before.
    this technic expanded after (6200 BC) into Cantabrica, Valencia, Asturias, Eastern Lombardia, Venetia, french Provence, Southern Brittany, Portugal,before reaching North: Îe-de-France, Picardy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark after 5300 BC, at the same time it disppearred progressively from Mediterranea. a first demic introduction could very well be possible, even if in it extensions, some local profiles could be the result of acculturation more than colonization. It seems too the climatic deterioration around the 6000BC has seen a change in the settlement localizations (Mediterranea dryer and colder, but population climbing in mountains (!?!) when on the Atlantic the populations got rather down near the coasts.
    my hypothesis is fragile but could explain some auDNA results concernins Italy and even Yougoslavia (NorthAfrican traces mixed with more Near-Eastern ones?) + Y-E1b more variated in Western Yugoslavia than in East Balkans + apparition of E-V13 in Iberia in very Early Neolithic for West and so on... the track N-Africa to Italy through Sicily is sensible I think. surely the first groups have more immediate upstreams Y-E1b than typical E-V13: it deserves a deeper analysis of subclades I cannot do here; all that doesn't explain, maybe, the all Y-EV13 found in Italy or elsewhere in Europe because EV13 can have espanded in some cases after having been incorporated among Neolithic people, or more later during metals ages, after some demographic boom. But my if hypothesi was true, it could confirm the anteriority (and its "mesolithic" charactere) of Y-EV13 and upstreams in Southern Europe compared to Neolithic advance. Let's wait for proofs!
    As you say, we really need ancient dna for proof but I think you have some interesting insights here.

    Everything can't be explained by very recent migrations. The flows are layered, but Alder can't distinguish them; it's just picking up the most recent admixture time. I really wish someone would do a sophisticated study of E-V13 in Greece, the Balkans, and Italy with a lot of subclade resolution, similar to what was done for Spain and Portugal in the Candela Hernandez et al paper. I think it would be a valuable adjunct even after we get ancient dna. They should do J2 as well.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0139784

    I also don't think that anyone can figure out Italian genetics without including comparisons to all of Greece and numerous Balkan countries. That's one of the problems with this study. The high "West Asian" in the Balkans, Greece, southern Italy and parts of central Italy has to be part of the same process. (See post # ) Or did the Etruscans settle the former Yugoslavia too, and Bulgaria and Romania? Perhaps there was a massive re-settlement of "Parthian" slaves there as well as in Italy in the late Empire period? :) The same goes for the North African that shows up in the Balkans and Greece and into Central Europe.
    Attachment 7504

    Some of that didn't come with the Moorish invasions of the early Medieval period. It may be that some of it is very old indeed. It's clear that all the early Neolithic peoples who entered Europe cluster together and are very related to each other and to Anatolian Neolithic farmers. However, there were subsequent Neolithic flows. I have speculated before that E-V13 and J2 were part of a later Neolithic flow. (Well, I did after E-V13 and J2 were found in a period best described as the transition period from the Early to Mid-Neolithic. Before that, I leaned toward believing that J2, at least, was Bronze Age and later in Europe. So, yes, I was wrong and Maciamo and LeBrok were right, as LeBrok was delighted to point out. :)) Now, we may find that E-V13 was already there in the late Mesolithic, or arrived further south in the Early Neolithic but only moved north later, but it's also possible that it was part of a later, slightly more North African Neolithic flow.

    After all, Oetzi already had some North African:

    Attachment 7505

    We may get some clarity on this when the new Lazaridis paper is published, and if we ever get an analysis of some ancient E-V13 samples in Europe. It will be interesting to see if there is a slight North African shift in some of the samples.

    I think it's only by looking at both ancient and recent processes that one can understand the differences even within southern Italy. Sicilians and some Calabrians overlap in this paper, but other Calabrians are south and east of the Sicilians. I don't think that can be because of "Moorish" rule, since Calabria was ruled by them for a very short time compared to Sicily. Now, in this paper only samples from the province of Reggio Calabria were used, not Catanzaro etc., so, one could argue that these are the most "Sicilian like" Calabrians. If that's the case, how to explain that, as I said, some of the Sicilians are a little north and west of these samples from Reggio?
    Attachment 7506

    It's difficult to speculate because the samples aren't labeled by the city of origin, and so we don't know if there is northwest versus extreme south substructure in Sicily. It could be that with the centuries there's been a lot of admixture and it's just down to random chance. On the other hand, we could speculate that the samples from northwest Sicily are the ones that list northward toward the samples from Lazio. Norman input in northwest Sicily could pull some of those Sicilian samples north, although the effect would probably be minimal since that wasn't a folk migration. However, there were other even more ancient migrations that disproportionately affected the northwest. The yDna certainly shows spikes in I1, and U-106 in the northwest although not specifically in that one city. The following image may not be exact, because I don't know when it was last updated, and there's no legend for the percents we're talking about here,which for some of these is very minor, but at least it gives an idea of the variation. Also be aware there's no break down of J2b versus J2a, and a lot of that "E" is E-V13.



    It's also speculation what the same analysis would show for the other Sicilian regions. I'd be very surprised, however, if there's much difference between the people of Messina and the people of Reggio Calabria. However, there would have to be some impact in certain specific towns from the deliberate policy of settling areas depopulated by expelled "Saracens" or "Moors" with settlers from Lombardia, Liguria, Toscana etc. This is the establishment of the so called "Lombard" towns. I've speculated before that a portion of the U152 on the island may be a result of this re-poplation. We'd need detailed subclade resolution to say which U-152 arrived "recently", and which is "Italic".

    There was no concerted "Lombard" or northern Italian resettlement of Calabria, and the Normans had less impact there even if it was a minor factor even in Sicily. These differences may partly explain some of these results, but the ancient processes also have a part to play. When either the Oetzi or Gok 4 genome was first released I remember that there was some indication of overall similarity to or IBD flow that included not only Sardinia but also Calabria. Don't quote me, though, because I haven't found the paper yet. :)

    Anyway, these are my speculations so far. When we get more ancient dna it should clarify matters.

    Oh, I have no idea why some people are claiming that there was no Greek colonization of Apulia. There certainly was; in fact, there are still enclaves in the Salento where they speak Griko, a dialect of Greek, to this day.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's not a high level. You can see that from the Admixture runs. It's the fact that the segments are long that shows it was relatively recent. They're showing IBD into the first millennium BC, so it should show up, you're right. Ralph and Coop went back to approximately 2500 BC.

    If the "Etruscans" did come from northwest Anatolia, they might have been a male elite. The paper that provided a PCA for ancient Etruscans showed them as generic Southern Europeans, maybe even pretty Balkan like, not West Asian as in Turkish or Anatolian or Armenian at all.

    There might have been a Bronze Age migration by way of the Balkans that carried ANE and high farmer levels but very little WHG. I've been proposing for a long time that the Indo-European migrations weren't a case of one specific group that somehow exponentially increased in population and then went out and invaded and admixed with native groups, but a case of "related" populations spreading in different directions, sometimes after a certain amount of back migration. So, some of the "Indo-Europeans" that came to Italy from the east may not have been exactly the same autosomally as the Indo-Europeans who arrived from the north.

    We should know soon, when we get ancient Greek and Italian genomes from the relevant periods.
    Can you check your term of west-asian ................It is not turkic ..............

    Also Turkic only appears in modern Turkey about 1000 years ago, before this there was no Turkic there
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Can you check your term of west-asian ................It is not turkic ..............

    Also Turkic only appears in modern Turkey about 1000 years ago, before this there was no Turkic there
    Where did I ever say or imply that West Asian equals Turkic? Everybody knows that the Turks didn't arrive until the Middle Ages.

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    In regards to U106 comments........there is a suggestion that it formed when Gallic/Celtic and Germanic people mixed to create the Belgae....these Belgae occupied all of the Netherlands in ancient times and migrated to britain.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Basilicata and Sicily basically overlap genetically and the Abruzzo samples of Behar and Eurogenes are just slightly more Northern (I think it has to do with 800 years of Kingdom from Normans to Bourbons), surely Northern Calabrians are in that range. I think Messina and Reggio are almost the same genetically, they live in front with 2.5 km of distance.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Where did I ever say or imply that West Asian equals Turkic? Everybody knows that the Turks didn't arrive until the Middle Ages.

    you said
    maybe even pretty Balkan like, not West Asian as in Turkish or Anatolian or Armenian


    West asian = iranic

    south Asian - indian

    central asian = turkic

    South west asia = arabic


    basically thats how it works

    The Romans or Alexander the Great never made contact with the Turkic people................actually , they barely made contact with the arabs either

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    Calabrians are Woggier because they have Greek blood...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danelaw View Post
    Calabrians are Woggier because they have Greek blood...
    Define Greek, Greeks from the Macedon region on average probably have a lighter complexion than the on average Greeks who live in Crete or on Kos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @Angela,

    I don't know exactly how IBD works. I'm pretty sure overall closeness can make IBD scores high. So, that can help explain longer-IBD segments with Europeans than any West Asians. IBD doesn't support West Asian ancestry but ADMIXTURE and PCA does. A way to test if there is Balkan ancestry is get IBD stats from Balkans, this study only had Romanians. I think I might ask for some people online to do IBD stats this study didn't do.
    Ralph and Coop do the best job of explaining it, I think. It's important to read the whole paper, but this will give you an idea.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

    "We can only hope to learn from genetic data about those common ancestors from whom two individuals have both inherited the same genomic region. If a pair of individuals have both inherited some genomic region from a common ancestor, that ancestor is called a “genetic common ancestor,” and the genomic region is shared “identical by descent” (IBD) by the two. Here we define an “IBD block” to be a contiguous segment of genome inherited (on at least one chromosome) from a shared common ancestor without intervening recombination (see Figure 1A). A more usual definition of IBD restricts to those segments inherited from some prespecified set of “founder” individuals (e.g., [8],[27],[28]), but we allow ancestors to be arbitrarily far back in time. Under our definition, everyone is IBD everywhere, but mostly on very short, old segments [29]. We measure lengths of IBD segments in units of Morgans (M) or centiMorgans (cM), where 1 Morgan is defined to be the distance over which an average of one recombination (i.e., a crossover) occurs per meiosis. Segments of IBD are broken up over time by recombination, which implies that older shared ancestry tends to result in shorter shared IBD blocks."

    Alan: Note "Turkic" admixture =/= Turkish expansion. The Turkish expansion brought most likely more of the Teal element with them than East Eurasian admixture. The modern Turks probably have around 20% of real "Turkic" as from Central Asia-Siberia ancestry, but a whole lot of more Iranic one rising up to as much as 50%. It is most likely that the Seldjuks who reached Anatolia from Iran were yet already pred. West Eurasian and akine to modern Turkmens from Turkmenistan.
    Could you provide a reference for an average of 20% in Turkey? I've never seen anything anywhere that high for an average in any academic paper.

    Ultimately, it wouldn't matter, however. Nowhere did the authors say that there was no IBD sharing between Turkey and other Middle East countries and Italy. They just said that what there was of it was old.

    From the Supplement to the paper:
    " "The IBD segments shared between the Italians and the other European populations are longer than the IBD segments shared between Italians and Turkish/Middle Eastern individuals, indicating that the admixture events between Italians and other Europeans are the most recent."



    There is also the broader issue of "West Asian" as an admixture component, and by that I mean the admixture component modal in Iran, Armenia, the Caucasus and modern Turkey. As I pointed out upthread, the Northern Italians have just about the same amount as the Hungarians, a little less actually. TSI Tuscans are a bit higher, about 4 points. Central Italians, which in that project are some Romans and some people from the Abruzzi, have about as much as the Romanians and Bulgarians and no doubt the Albanians and Serbians, and that's after whatever dilution occurred because of the Slavic migrations. Did the Etruscans settle in Bulgaria and Albania too? That just won't cut it as an explanation for all of the alleles in this cluster, although an elite migration might contribute to some of it. Nor, as I said upthread, will some mythical settlement of Parthian slaves in the late Empire in Italy explain it, as it would have to have occurred all over the Balkans and not in central or western Europe or Iberia or anywhere else.

    There are other processes involved as well, older, in my opinion, having to do perhaps with late Neolithic and early Bronze Age gene flows, perhaps mediated partly through Crete and the Myceneans, and then additional gene flow during the period of Greek colonization.
    Last edited by Angela; 13-11-15 at 21:38.

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    Joey, am I going to have to go checking IP addresses again? Banned posters aren't allowed to come back under new registrations, you know. In the meantime you got an infraction for using an ethnic slur. By all means continue.

    As to any substance, a Neapolitan is going to deny his illustrious Greek heritage? What of Neapolis, Cumae, Paestum? For shame.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ralph and Coop do the best job of explaining it, I think. It's important to read the whole paper, but this will give you an idea.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

    "We can only hope to learn from genetic data about those common ancestors from whom two individuals have both inherited the same genomic region. If a pair of individuals have both inherited some genomic region from a common ancestor, that ancestor is called a “genetic common ancestor,” and the genomic region is shared “identical by descent” (IBD) by the two. Here we define an “IBD block” to be a contiguous segment of genome inherited (on at least one chromosome) from a shared common ancestor without intervening recombination (see Figure 1A). A more usual definition of IBD restricts to those segments inherited from some prespecified set of “founder” individuals (e.g., [8],[27],[28]), but we allow ancestors to be arbitrarily far back in time. Under our definition, everyone is IBD everywhere, but mostly on very short, old segments [29]. We measure lengths of IBD segments in units of Morgans (M) or centiMorgans (cM), where 1 Morgan is defined to be the distance over which an average of one recombination (i.e., a crossover) occurs per meiosis. Segments of IBD are broken up over time by recombination, which implies that older shared ancestry tends to result in shorter shared IBD blocks."



    Could you provide a reference for an average of 20% in Turkey? I've never seen anything anywhere that high for an average in any academic paper.

    Ultimately, it wouldn't matter, however. Nowhere did the authors say that there was no IBD sharing between Turkey and other Middle East countries and Italy. They just said it was old.

    From the Supplement to the paper:
    " "The IBD segments shared between the Italians and the other European populations are longer than the IBD segments shared between Italians and Turkish/Middle Eastern individuals, indicating that the admixture events between Italians and other Europeans are the most recent."



    There is also the broader issue of "West Asian" as an admixture component, and by that I mean the admixture component modal in Iran, Armenia, the Caucasus and modern Turkey. As I pointed out upthread, the Northern Italians have just about the same amount as the Hungarians, a little less actually. TSI Tuscans are a bit higher, about 4 points. Central Italians, which in that project are some Romans and some people from the Abruzzi, have about as much as the Romanians and Bulgarians and no doubt the Albanians and Serbians. Did the Etruscans settle in Bulgaria and Albania too? That just won't cut it as an explanation. Nor, as I said upthread, will some mythical settlement of Parthian slaves as it would have to have occurred all over the Balkans (and not in central or western Europe or Iberia or anywhere else.

    There are other processes involved as well, older, in my opinion, having to do perhaps with late Neolithic and early Bronze Age gene flows, perhaps mediated partly through Crete and the Myceneans, and then additional gene flow during the period of Greek colonization.
    North-Iitalian ( i.e known as Bergamo ) is associated more with Bulgarians ( most likely ancient thracians ) than with Hungarians ..............as per LAZ and other geneticists
    This "bulgarian" asociation is close , maybe more of a Pontic association than a levant one

    The 2015 paper by rubino states that the NE-Italy closest assimilation of people within only Italian regions is with Marche

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Note "Turkic" admixture =/= Turkish expansion. The Turkish expansion brought most likely more of the Teal element with them than East Eurasian admixture. The modern Turks probably have around 20% of real "Turkic" as from Central Asia-Siberia ancestry, but a whole lot of more Iranic one rising up to as much as 50%. It is most likely that the Seldjuks who reached Anatolia from Iran were yet already pred. West Eurasian and akine to modern Turkmens from Turkmenistan.
    I never heard of 20% Turkic in anatolia .............the only figures I have ever seen range between 6% and 10%

    can you link me this information

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Basilicata and Sicily basically overlap genetically and the Abruzzo samples of Behar and Eurogenes are just slightly more Northern (I think it has to do with 800 years of Kingdom from Normans to Bourbons), surely Northern Calabrians are in that range. I think Messina and Reggio are almost the same genetically, they live in front with 2.5 km of distance.
    I agree. Basilicata is very landlocked, however, sort of isolated from major trade routes and migration flows, not like coastal Sicily, Calabria or Campania, so it may be a bit different. Still, I don't know where this comment comes from that Basilicata has the same amount of North African as "the rest of Italy", and is not in the same group as Sicily and Calabria.

    From the paper:
    "Table S4 shows high IBD sharing between southern Italian regions-Calabria, Basilicata, and Sicily-and North African populations-Moroccans and Mozabites."

    It is very annoying to have to go and recheck data because some members post incorrect information. As has happened before, if it becomes a habit and begins to seem like a deliberate policy to distort the data to suit a certain agenda, infractions will be issued.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Basilicata has as well Greek settlement in the southern coast.
    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_...a_Magna_Grecia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Basilicata has as well Greek settlement in the southern coast.
    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_...a_Magna_Grecia
    You're right. I forgot that. Nice link by the way, because it shows all of them, unlike most maps of Magna Graecia.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree. Basilicata is very landlocked, however, sort of isolated from major trade routes and migration flows, not like coastal Sicily, Calabria or Campania, so it may be a bit different. Still, I don't know where this comment comes from that Basilicata has the same amount of North African as "the rest of Italy", and is not in the same group as Sicily and Calabria.From the paper:"Table S4 shows high IBD sharing between southern Italian regions-Calabria, Basilicata, and Sicily-and North African populations-Moroccans and Mozabites."It is very annoying to have to go and recheck data because some members post incorrect information. As has happened before, if it becomes a habit and begins to seem like a deliberate policy to distort the data to suit a certain agenda, infractions will be issued.
    You are making a lot of confusion. You are now mixing ADMIXTURE and IBD which are two totally different things.

    I've already posted the quote from the Supp Info which claims that only Sardinia, Sicily and Reggio Calabria have above noise level of North African admixture.

    Do not make me post it again or I will report you to the Moderators.

    I am still waiting for these supposed accademic source which found North African admixture in Apulia and Campania.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @ Angela
    Thanks, my post was just a reaction based on an old souvenir - you go very farther in details and you know better Italy History than me - the dating of ancient layers is a kind of sport I think; I'm not sure surveys about today populations can provide sure dates for ancient populations layers in Italy, a country so often "visited"; it still remains interesting speculating. Buona sera.

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    [QUOTE=Sile;470327]I never heard of 20% Turkic in anatolia .............the only figures I have ever seen range between 6% and 10%

    can you link me this information[/QUOTE

    I have not based the sufficient knowledge to steeply affirm things.
    I wonder if you SIle are not confusing here 'east-asian' admixture among Anatolian Turks with Turkic introgression in to Anatolia?
    I'm not sure but I suppose Alan means that among today geographically Anatolian and supposedly genetically 'westasian' of Turkey it is difficult to tell the pre-Turks already present 'westasians' of the newly arrived Turks, in fact turkicized 'westasians' come from Steppes, of diverse previous cultures (Iranians for the most).
    If Turks at first seem a mix of 'eastasians' + some 'eurasians' in their Altaic cradle, it's almost sure they took a lot of diverse tribes, among these last ones tribes dominantly Iranian or Iranianized of East caspian. But Alan could precise better than me?

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