The Italian Genome-Fiorito et al 2015

[Danelaw]

Boattini 2013 has 882 Italian Y DNA samples. I piled the results in this spreadsheet.R1b-P312, G2a, E1b-V13, and J2a are the most important aspects of the Italian Y DNA gene pool. R1b-U152 and R1b-DF27(?) take up almost 50% of North Italy, 1/3 of Central Italy, and less than 20% of South Italy. That's the most significant regional trend in Italy.

Meh. You are lumping Tuscany, which had a big founder effect of R1b in NW area, with areas like Latium, Abruzzo and Marche who have loads of J2a and J1. On the other hand Campania, Sicily, parts of Apulia and Molise are very very very different in their Y-DNA from Basilicata, Calabria and Salento.

Tofanelli et al 2015, which summed several sources, found out that Sicily as whole is about 35% of R1b, more than Latium and on par with Umbria and Abruzzo.

There is also a difference in R1b suclades between NW and NE Italy. Liguria has a lot of P-312*, while in Lombardy and Emilia is almost all U152. NE has also much more L2, which is very common above of Alps.

 

[Danelaw]

Basilicata has as well Greek settlement in the southern coast.

The difference between Northern Calabria/Basilicata and Southern Calabria/Sicily, is that the former does not speak the extreme southern Italian dialects whch have loads of Greek loanwords. Just saying.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Meh. You are lumping Tuscany, which had a big founder effect of R1b in NW area, with areas like Latium, Abruzzo and Marche who have loads of J2a and J1. On the other hand Campania, Sicily, parts of Apulia and Molise are very very very different in their Y-DNA from Basilicata, Calabria and Salento.

Tofanelli et al 2015, which summed several sources, found out that Sicily as whole is about 35% of R1b, more than Latium and on par with Umbria and Abruzzo.

There is also a difference in R1b suclades between NW and NE Italy. Liguria has a lot of P-312*, while in Lombardy and Emilia is almost all U152. NE has also much more L2, which is very common above of Alps.

Thanks for pointing this out. I did lump to many provinces into the same regions. I'll change that later.

 

[Danelaw]

Basilicata and Sicily basically overlap genetically and the Abruzzo samples of Behar and Eurogenes are just slightly more Northern (I think it has to do with 800 years of Kingdom from Normans to Bourbons), surely Northern Calabrians are in that range. I think Messina and Reggio are almost the same genetically, they live in front with 2.5 km of distance.

No only Western Sicilians are slightly more Southern than Abruzzo. Eastern and Central Sicilians are not. Abruzzo also lack the SSA.

ANE+WHG

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml

Tucany: 38
Abruzzo: 32.95
West Sicilian: 30.65
C.Sicilian: 28.92
E.Sicilian: 29.24

This study used 27 samples from Matera and only 1 from Potenza, where two thirds of Lucanians live.

I would like to see how samples from Western Basilica would score. Especially from the Albanian and Gallo Italic speaking areas.

 

[Hauteville]

The Central Sicilians are only two samples though. I'd like indeed to see the results from other inner Sicilians towns from Gallo Italic speaking areas how they would score.

 

[Hauteville]

The difference between Northern Calabria/Basilicata and Southern Calabria/Sicily, is that the former does not speak the extreme southern Italian dialects whch have loads of Greek loanwords. Just saying.

True, see your map.

 

[Danelaw]

The Central Sicilians are only two samples though. I'd like indeed to see the results from other inner Sicilians towns from Gallo Italic speaking areas how they would score.

Didn't they get some samples from Albanian speakers in Sicily in another study? They should have tested them too in the genome wide analysis.

 

[Hauteville]

Didn't they get some samples from Albanian speakers in Sicily in another study? They should have tested them too in the genome wide analysis.

Afaik they have studied only Y-DNA of Arbereshe from Sicily and Calabria but not the auDNA.

 

[MOESAN]

you said
maybe even pretty Balkan like, not West Asian as in Turkish or Anatolian or Armenian


West asian = iranic

south Asian - indian

central asian = turkic

South west asia = arabic


basically thats how it works

The Romans or Alexander the Great never made contact with the Turkic people................actually , they barely made contact with the arabs either

You are running a bit fast here I think: (or maybe I misunderstood your point, because words can be confusing sometimes)
concerning 'west-asian' in the component meaning, it already spanneds Iranic speaking people AND diverse caucasic speaking people, not only 'iranic' (it became more complicated after) - 'central-asian': i'm not sure we have a too basic component here; rather a mix of Eurasians and East-Asians, I think.

 

[MOESAN]

There is no evidence that Etruscans came from somewhere. They very well could have been there before anybody else. The similarities of their art with Greeks could have been acquired through their maritime trade with Greeks in Sicily.
I personally believe that Etruscans were stock from the original population before the Latins set foot in Italy.

Hard to prove or disprove. the first stage of Villanova culture I believe preceded the Etruscan typical ones; what I find suprising is the very original aspects of Etruscan culture which could imply far born influences and not be only a solely internal evolution of Villanovian. And I 'm not sure an overwhelmed or rather an "inivisible" autochtonous " population could have taken the strong side upon the colonizing new population seemingly coming from North into Italy. I avow all that is speculation but? culture evolution could be surprising but I 'm not aware of a precedent of this kind. all the way if newcomers explain the Etruscan culture, they were rather a small population.

 

[Angela]

You are making a lot of confusion. You are now mixing ADMIXTURE and IBD which are two totally different things.

I've already posted the quote from the Supp Info which claims that only Sardinia, Sicily and Reggio Calabria have above noise level of North African admixture.

Do not make me post it again or I will report you to the Moderators.

I have a news bulletin for you: I'm one of the moderators. That's why you got an infraction for an ethnic slur. You just got another one. If you wish to complain to the other moderators please be my guest. You and your sequential registrations have been under discussion before. Maybe it needs to be revisited.

As to your substantive points, such as they are, your conclusions are not supported by the data you provided from the paper.

This is what you quoted from the paper:
"The North-African component is detectable in the Italian sample, especially in Sicily, Calabria, and Sardinia and it is distinguishable from random noise: 5.42% (2.99% - 7.85%) in South Italy and 4.66% (2.22% - 7.11%) in Sardinia. "

This is what you stated:

"No the North African admixture is present only in Sardinia, Calabria and Sicily."

"Basilicata has comparable levels of North African admixture as the rest of Italy."

I fail to see how the quoted passage leads to your conclusions.

If you have access to the paper and there are actual figures for the percentage of North African in the people of Basilicata, please provide them. I'd be very interested to see them.

It would be very surprising, based on the IBD analysis, to find that Basilicata has no North African, or that its levels are similar to those of the central and Northern Italians. Its level of such IBD sharing is substantially higher than that of the central and northern Italians. I would expect their percentages for North African to follow the cline and be in between those of Sicily and Reggio on the one hand, and those of the central Italians on the other.



As to over all genetic similarity, the people of Basilicata seem to overlap with Sicilians and some Calabrians. I don't see how that can be denied.







So far as I know, Campania and Apulia have not been specifically featured in an academic autosomal study of North African percentages. However, De Gaetano et al did do an admixture analysis of a southern Italian cluster which included Calabria, Sicily, Basilicata, Campania and Apulia, and also included North African populations.

You can see the various K runs below.

I don't see any indication that the people of Basilicata, or Campania, or Apulia are substantially different from the people of more southern areas.

 

[Danelaw]

IBD and ADMIXTURE are two totally different things. Stop trying to equate them to compensate your lack of arguments.The quote claims that the North African admixture is especially strong and above noise levels only in Sardinia, Sicily and Reggio Calabria.

If you can't read them, then it's not a my problem.

If you look at the spreadsheet of De Gaetano et al you will notice that many individual North, Central and South Italians are overapping, so by this it must be concluded that they are all admixed with North Africans. Anyway those PCA plots from Fiorito et al and De Gaetano et al do not feature any North African population so it's pretty irrelevant since plots are dataset dependent..

 

[Danelaw]

LoL the violet North African component at K=4 is found in all Europeans. Not even your sources suport you.

 

[Angela]

IBD and ADMIXTURE are two totally different things. Stop trying to equate them to compensate your lack of arguments.The quote claims that the North African admixture is especially strong and above noise levels only in Sardinia, Sicily and Reggio Calabria.

If you can't read them, then it's not a my problem.

If you look at the spreadsheet of De Gaetano et al you will notice that many individual North, Central and South Italians are overapping, so by this it must be concluded that they are all admixed with North Africans. Anyway those PCA plots from Fiorito et al and De Gaetano et al do not feature any North African population so it's pretty irrelevant since plots are dataset dependent..

I take it then that your conclusions were indeed not based on any specific percentages in the paper for North African in Basilicata or central and northern Italy.

I read quite well, thank-you. Insults will not help your case or convince anyone as to the truth of your statements.

I never said that Admixture and IBD sharing are the same. However, they are certainly related, and in the absence of specific data as to these percentages, and given the high levels of sharing with North Africans in Basilicata, quite in line with those of Sicily and Reggio Calabria, and much higher than those in central and northern Italy, your comments to the effect that there is no North African in Basilicata, or, alternatively, that if it exists it is at levels comparable to central and northern Italy are dubious at best.

As to the De Gaetano study, I have pointed out numerous times on this site that the authors did not "vet" their samples as to whether all four grandparents came from the same city. They themselves state that some of their samples are out of cline because they represent southerners resident in the north or people in the north who have ancestry from southern regions. However, it is clear which samples should be ignored for those reasons. The majority of the southern samples plot exactly where they should.

Also, contrary to your assertion, they did include North African populations.

Ed. I have previously posted the Botigue graphic showing North African IBD sharing reaching into France, central Europe, the Balkans, and certainly, and highest, in Iberia. That isn't the issue.

The level is the issue, and your conclusions are the issue.

I don't see any point in continuing this discussion. You don't have proof for your assertions and all the available data undercuts them.

 

[Danelaw]

The IBD don't specify the direction of gene flow. There were multiple expulsions of muslims and jews (virtually all local converts) plus many slaves were captured by the Moorish pirates, so the geneflow is from Italy to North Africa and not vice versa.

 

[Sile]

You are running a bit fast here I think: (or maybe I misunderstood your point, because words can be confusing sometimes)
concerning 'west-asian' in the component meaning, it already spanneds Iranic speaking people AND diverse caucasic speaking people, not only 'iranic' (it became more complicated after) - 'central-asian': i'm not sure we have a too basic component here; rather a mix of Eurasians and East-Asians, I think.

I presented the standard format used by many .....................I do not see why I should present what I think

there are also further breakdowns of these standards formats.........like Balochi and Gedrosia is part of West-Asian ...........

 

[Sile]

There is no evidence that Etruscans came from somewhere. They very well could have been there before anybody else. The similarities of their art with Greeks could have been acquired through their maritime trade with Greeks in Sicily.
I personally believe that Etruscans were stock from the original population before the Latins set foot in Italy.

The scenario of etruscans as original to Italy is a theory of the last 2 to 3 years, based on script tablets found on Lemnos . These tablets were dated that they were planted there by etruscan colonists and merchants only in a period after the etruscan where living in italy. They also found similar on the samothrace coast.

As for the Latins, some Italian historians claim the Latins are a sub-branch of etruscans who where ruled by etruscan kings and basically revolted.

but we do know that the 12 cities of etruscans where separate states and not one union..........they only got together once a year for their religious worshipping.

What they are still investigating is if etruscans settled in Corsica as well or the etruscans arrived from Corsica

 

[Sile]

Boattini 2013 has 882 Italian Y DNA samples. I piled the results in this spreadsheet.

Boattini 2013

R1b-P312, G2a, E1b-V13, and J2a are the most important aspects of the Italian Y DNA gene pool.


R1b-U152 and R1b-DF27(?) take up almost 50% of North Italy, 1/3 of Central Italy, and less than 20% of South Italy. That's the most significant regional trend in Italy.

G2a is probably of Neolithic origin. Although J2a and E1b-V13 are more mysterious. Both have been found in "EEF" but were unpopular. AFIAK there hasn't been much work on J/E deep-subclade distributions. This is why it's a mysterious what their origins are. Saying someone has J2a1b, J1a2b, J2b2, E1b-V13, is like saying someone has R.

R1b1a2-M269(xP311) is popular at 5%+. Added E1b-V13 and J2b2, it's tempting to say there's Balkan input in Italy. Because R1b-Z2103, E1b-V13, and J2b2 are the most popular HGs in the Balkans. Italy is kind of in it's on world, being separated by the Alps and Mediterranean sea, and therefore could have a differnt history than mainland Europe were we have ancient genomes from. It'll be interesting to see what ancient DNA reveals. There's a study with Paleolithic-Bronze age DNA from Italy coming out in the next few years.

was'nt the Boattini samples lacking ( had zero ) samples from friuli ( missing ydna ) due to the fact that it would askew the results .

 

[MOESAN]

I presented the standard format used by many .....................I do not see why I should present what I think

there are also further breakdowns of these standards formats.........like Balochi and Gedrosia is part of West-Asian ...........

Sorry, but I was understanding you identified 'west-asian' (broad sense, as for me) with Iranian speaking people only: the question is not the format of the auDNA component but the link between it and Iranians (ancient or current) whatever the variant of 'west-asian' they could have... ?

 

[Angela]

I've taken another look at the supplementary figures. I don't think anyone has pointed out some of the possible reasons for the different placement of the samples, particularly those from Armenia and Turkey, compared to other PCAs with which we're all familiar.


I think the major reason is that there are fewer West Asian populations included. PCAs are good tools, but in order to interpret them you have to understand how they work. Everything depends on the populations that are part of the analysis. For example, this is the PCA from Behar. It is quite different.


Notice the placement of the Turkish samples and even the Spanish

That's why FSTs have to be included in the analysis, particularly ones produced by the method used in this paper. For example, on most PCAs the Northern Italian and Tuscan groups cluster with Iberians. Yet in this study the Northern Italians are closer to the generic French sample, not even the southern French, than they are to the Iberians.

North Italians:
.0001 Aostans and Sardinians
.0002 French and Central Italians
.0003 French Basques
.0004 Iberians

Central Italians:
.0001 Aostans
.0002 Basques and Northern Italians
.0003 French and Iberians

There are other very interesting numbers in there.

The results can also change based on where the analyzed samples were taken. Di Gaetano is part of this group, and was lead on the Di Gaetano paper whose Admixture run I posted above. That prior study was flawed because no attempt was made to verify that all four ancestors came from the same place. That makes me a little skeptical about whether they vetted these samples properly. Also, with a country with as much variation as Italy these samples may not be totally representative, although I think the general parameters are probably correct.

Since I was thinking about the sourcing of samples, I thought I'd investigate where the Iberian samples were taken, especially in the context of the recent Hernandez et al paper. Those samples are half from Catalonia and half from eastern Andalucia. From that same Hernandez study, those don't seem particularly representative, in my opinion, of all Spanish variation.