The Italian Genome-Fiorito et al 2015

In regards to U106 comments........there is a suggestion that it formed when Gallic/Celtic and Germanic people mixed to create the Belgae....these Belgae occupied all of the Netherlands in ancient times and migrated to britain.
 
Basilicata and Sicily basically overlap genetically and the Abruzzo samples of Behar and Eurogenes are just slightly more Northern (I think it has to do with 800 years of Kingdom from Normans to Bourbons), surely Northern Calabrians are in that range. I think Messina and Reggio are almost the same genetically, they live in front with 2.5 km of distance.
 
Where did I ever say or imply that West Asian equals Turkic? Everybody knows that the Turks didn't arrive until the Middle Ages.


you said
maybe even pretty Balkan like, not West Asian as in Turkish or Anatolian or Armenian


West asian = iranic

south Asian - indian

central asian = turkic

South west asia = arabic


basically thats how it works

The Romans or Alexander the Great never made contact with the Turkic people................actually , they barely made contact with the arabs either
 
Calabrians are Woggier because they have Greek blood...
Define Greek, Greeks from the Macedon region on average probably have a lighter complexion than the on average Greeks who live in Crete or on Kos.
 
@Angela,

I don't know exactly how IBD works. I'm pretty sure overall closeness can make IBD scores high. So, that can help explain longer-IBD segments with Europeans than any West Asians. IBD doesn't support West Asian ancestry but ADMIXTURE and PCA does. A way to test if there is Balkan ancestry is get IBD stats from Balkans, this study only had Romanians. I think I might ask for some people online to do IBD stats this study didn't do.

Ralph and Coop do the best job of explaining it, I think. It's important to read the whole paper, but this will give you an idea.
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

"We can only hope to learn from genetic data about those common ancestors from whom two individuals have both inherited the same genomic region. If a pair of individuals have both inherited some genomic region from a common ancestor, that ancestor is called a “genetic common ancestor,” and the genomic region is shared “identical by descent” (IBD) by the two. Here we define an “IBD block” to be a contiguous segment of genome inherited (on at least one chromosome) from a shared common ancestor without intervening recombination (see Figure 1A). A more usual definition of IBD restricts to those segments inherited from some prespecified set of “founder” individuals (e.g., [8],[27],[28]), but we allow ancestors to be arbitrarily far back in time. Under our definition, everyone is IBD everywhere, but mostly on very short, old segments [29]. We measure lengths of IBD segments in units of Morgans (M) or centiMorgans (cM), where 1 Morgan is defined to be the distance over which an average of one recombination (i.e., a crossover) occurs per meiosis. Segments of IBD are broken up over time by recombination, which implies that older shared ancestry tends to result in shorter shared IBD blocks."

Alan: Note "Turkic" admixture =/= Turkish expansion. The Turkish expansion brought most likely more of the Teal element with them than East Eurasian admixture. The modern Turks probably have around 20% of real "Turkic" as from Central Asia-Siberia ancestry, but a whole lot of more Iranic one rising up to as much as 50%. It is most likely that the Seldjuks who reached Anatolia from Iran were yet already pred. West Eurasian and akine to modern Turkmens from Turkmenistan.

Could you provide a reference for an average of 20% in Turkey? I've never seen anything anywhere that high for an average in any academic paper.

Ultimately, it wouldn't matter, however. Nowhere did the authors say that there was no IBD sharing between Turkey and other Middle East countries and Italy. They just said that what there was of it was old.

From the Supplement to the paper:
" "The IBD segments shared between the Italians and the other European populations are longer than the IBD segments shared between Italians and Turkish/Middle Eastern individuals, indicating that the admixture events between Italians and other Europeans are the most recent."



There is also the broader issue of "West Asian" as an admixture component, and by that I mean the admixture component modal in Iran, Armenia, the Caucasus and modern Turkey. As I pointed out upthread, the Northern Italians have just about the same amount as the Hungarians, a little less actually. TSI Tuscans are a bit higher, about 4 points. Central Italians, which in that project are some Romans and some people from the Abruzzi, have about as much as the Romanians and Bulgarians and no doubt the Albanians and Serbians, and that's after whatever dilution occurred because of the Slavic migrations. Did the Etruscans settle in Bulgaria and Albania too? That just won't cut it as an explanation for all of the alleles in this cluster, although an elite migration might contribute to some of it. Nor, as I said upthread, will some mythical settlement of Parthian slaves in the late Empire in Italy explain it, as it would have to have occurred all over the Balkans and not in central or western Europe or Iberia or anywhere else.

There are other processes involved as well, older, in my opinion, having to do perhaps with late Neolithic and early Bronze Age gene flows, perhaps mediated partly through Crete and the Myceneans, and then additional gene flow during the period of Greek colonization.
 
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Joey, am I going to have to go checking IP addresses again? Banned posters aren't allowed to come back under new registrations, you know. In the meantime you got an infraction for using an ethnic slur. By all means continue.

As to any substance, a Neapolitan is going to deny his illustrious Greek heritage? What of Neapolis, Cumae, Paestum? For shame.

Colonie_greche.jpg
 
Ralph and Coop do the best job of explaining it, I think. It's important to read the whole paper, but this will give you an idea.
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

"We can only hope to learn from genetic data about those common ancestors from whom two individuals have both inherited the same genomic region. If a pair of individuals have both inherited some genomic region from a common ancestor, that ancestor is called a “genetic common ancestor,” and the genomic region is shared “identical by descent” (IBD) by the two. Here we define an “IBD block” to be a contiguous segment of genome inherited (on at least one chromosome) from a shared common ancestor without intervening recombination (see Figure 1A). A more usual definition of IBD restricts to those segments inherited from some prespecified set of “founder” individuals (e.g., [8],[27],[28]), but we allow ancestors to be arbitrarily far back in time. Under our definition, everyone is IBD everywhere, but mostly on very short, old segments [29]. We measure lengths of IBD segments in units of Morgans (M) or centiMorgans (cM), where 1 Morgan is defined to be the distance over which an average of one recombination (i.e., a crossover) occurs per meiosis. Segments of IBD are broken up over time by recombination, which implies that older shared ancestry tends to result in shorter shared IBD blocks."



Could you provide a reference for an average of 20% in Turkey? I've never seen anything anywhere that high for an average in any academic paper.

Ultimately, it wouldn't matter, however. Nowhere did the authors say that there was no IBD sharing between Turkey and other Middle East countries and Italy. They just said it was old.

From the Supplement to the paper:
" "The IBD segments shared between the Italians and the other European populations are longer than the IBD segments shared between Italians and Turkish/Middle Eastern individuals, indicating that the admixture events between Italians and other Europeans are the most recent."



There is also the broader issue of "West Asian" as an admixture component, and by that I mean the admixture component modal in Iran, Armenia, the Caucasus and modern Turkey. As I pointed out upthread, the Northern Italians have just about the same amount as the Hungarians, a little less actually. TSI Tuscans are a bit higher, about 4 points. Central Italians, which in that project are some Romans and some people from the Abruzzi, have about as much as the Romanians and Bulgarians and no doubt the Albanians and Serbians. Did the Etruscans settle in Bulgaria and Albania too? That just won't cut it as an explanation. Nor, as I said upthread, will some mythical settlement of Parthian slaves as it would have to have occurred all over the Balkans (and not in central or western Europe or Iberia or anywhere else.

There are other processes involved as well, older, in my opinion, having to do perhaps with late Neolithic and early Bronze Age gene flows, perhaps mediated partly through Crete and the Myceneans, and then additional gene flow during the period of Greek colonization.

North-Iitalian ( i.e known as Bergamo ) is associated more with Bulgarians ( most likely ancient thracians ) than with Hungarians ..............as per LAZ and other geneticists
This "bulgarian" asociation is close , maybe more of a Pontic association than a levant one

The 2015 paper by rubino states that the NE-Italy closest assimilation of people within only Italian regions is with Marche
 
Note "Turkic" admixture =/= Turkish expansion. The Turkish expansion brought most likely more of the Teal element with them than East Eurasian admixture. The modern Turks probably have around 20% of real "Turkic" as from Central Asia-Siberia ancestry, but a whole lot of more Iranic one rising up to as much as 50%. It is most likely that the Seldjuks who reached Anatolia from Iran were yet already pred. West Eurasian and akine to modern Turkmens from Turkmenistan.

I never heard of 20% Turkic in anatolia .............the only figures I have ever seen range between 6% and 10%

can you link me this information
 
Basilicata and Sicily basically overlap genetically and the Abruzzo samples of Behar and Eurogenes are just slightly more Northern (I think it has to do with 800 years of Kingdom from Normans to Bourbons), surely Northern Calabrians are in that range. I think Messina and Reggio are almost the same genetically, they live in front with 2.5 km of distance.

I agree. Basilicata is very landlocked, however, sort of isolated from major trade routes and migration flows, not like coastal Sicily, Calabria or Campania, so it may be a bit different. Still, I don't know where this comment comes from that Basilicata has the same amount of North African as "the rest of Italy", and is not in the same group as Sicily and Calabria.

From the paper:
"Table S4 shows high IBD sharing between southern Italian regions-Calabria, Basilicata, and Sicily-and North African populations-Moroccans and Mozabites."

It is very annoying to have to go and recheck data because some members post incorrect information. As has happened before, if it becomes a habit and begins to seem like a deliberate policy to distort the data to suit a certain agenda, infractions will be issued.
 
I agree. Basilicata is very landlocked, however, sort of isolated from major trade routes and migration flows, not like coastal Sicily, Calabria or Campania, so it may be a bit different. Still, I don't know where this comment comes from that Basilicata has the same amount of North African as "the rest of Italy", and is not in the same group as Sicily and Calabria.From the paper:"Table S4 shows high IBD sharing between southern Italian regions-Calabria, Basilicata, and Sicily-and North African populations-Moroccans and Mozabites."It is very annoying to have to go and recheck data because some members post incorrect information. As has happened before, if it becomes a habit and begins to seem like a deliberate policy to distort the data to suit a certain agenda, infractions will be issued.

You are making a lot of confusion. You are now mixing ADMIXTURE and IBD which are two totally different things.

I've already posted the quote from the Supp Info which claims that only Sardinia, Sicily and Reggio Calabria have above noise level of North African admixture.

Do not make me post it again or I will report you to the Moderators.

I am still waiting for these supposed accademic source which found North African admixture in Apulia and Campania.
 
@ Angela
Thanks, my post was just a reaction based on an old souvenir - you go very farther in details and you know better Italy History than me - the dating of ancient layers is a kind of sport I think; I'm not sure surveys about today populations can provide sure dates for ancient populations layers in Italy, a country so often "visited"; it still remains interesting speculating. Buona sera.
 
I never heard of 20% Turkic in anatolia .............the only figures I have ever seen range between 6% and 10%

can you link me this information[/QUOTE

I have not based the sufficient knowledge to steeply affirm things.
I wonder if you SIle are not confusing here 'east-asian' admixture among Anatolian Turks with Turkic introgression in to Anatolia?
I'm not sure but I suppose Alan means that among today geographically Anatolian and supposedly genetically 'westasian' of Turkey it is difficult to tell the pre-Turks already present 'westasians' of the newly arrived Turks, in fact turkicized 'westasians' come from Steppes, of diverse previous cultures (Iranians for the most).
If Turks at first seem a mix of 'eastasians' + some 'eurasians' in their Altaic cradle, it's almost sure they took a lot of diverse tribes, among these last ones tribes dominantly Iranian or Iranianized of East caspian. But Alan could precise better than me?
 
It's not a high level. You can see that from the Admixture runs. It's the fact that the segments are long that shows it was relatively recent. They're showing IBD into the first millennium BC, so it should show up, you're right. Ralph and Coop went back to approximately 2500 BC.

If the "Etruscans" did come from northwest Anatolia, they might have been a male elite. The paper that provided a PCA for ancient Etruscans showed them as generic Southern Europeans, maybe even pretty Balkan like, not West Asian as in Turkish, Anatolian or Armenian at all.*

There might have been a Bronze Age migration by way of the Balkans that carried ANE and high farmer levels but very little WHG. I've been proposing for a long time that the Indo-European migrations weren't a case of one specific group that somehow exponentially increased in population and then went out and invaded and admixed with native groups, but a case of "related" populations spreading in different directions, sometimes after a certain amount of back migration. So, some of the "Indo-Europeans" that came to Italy from the east may not have been exactly the same autosomally as the Indo-Europeans who arrived from the north.

We should know soon, when we get ancient Greek and Italian genomes from the relevant periods.

*Ed. For anyone who is unaware of it, the inhabitants of modern day Turkey are not genetically the same as the ancient Anatolians, because, among other reasons, they have "Turkic" admixture which arrived in the Middle Ages.

There is no evidence that Etruscans came from somewhere. They very well could have been there before anybody else. The similarities of their art with Greeks could have been acquired through their maritime trade with Greeks in Sicily.
I personally believe that Etruscans were stock from the original population before the Latins set foot in Italy.
 
There is no evidence that Etruscans came from somewhere. They very well could have been there before anybody else. The similarities of their art with Greeks could have been acquired through their maritime trade with Greeks in Sicily.
I personally believe that Etruscans were stock from the original population before the Latins set foot in Italy.
They were Villanovians. It was a migration from Anatolia into Italy (and the whole Europe) but not in historical times but very ancient.
 
@Sile and Angela

A few years ago Dienekes posted an article and oracle results which showed that Anatolian Turks are ~25% modern Central Asian derived and even more 50% Iranian Plateau. The 6-10% figures are merely the East Eurasian ancestry in Turks, however it is most unlikely that the Turkic groups who left Central Asia for Iran were entirely East Eurasian. Even the most eastern Turkic groups such as Kyrygz have ~30% West Eurasian ancestry as per Dodecad globe13 but Kazakhs(from where the expansions of Turkic groups into West Asia started) up to 60%(almost all of it Iranic ancestry).
 
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Analysis of Italian Y DNA: Boattini 2013

Boattini 2013 has 882 Italian Y DNA samples. I piled the results in this spreadsheet.

Boattini 2013

R1b-P312, G2a, E1b-V13, and J2a are the most important aspects of the Italian Y DNA gene pool.


R1b-U152 and R1b-DF27(?) take up almost 50% of North Italy, 1/3 of Central Italy, and less than 20% of South Italy. That's the most significant regional trend in Italy.

G2a is probably of Neolithic origin. Although J2a and E1b-V13 are more mysterious. Both have been found in "EEF" but were unpopular. AFIAK there hasn't been much work on J/E deep-subclade distributions. This is why it's a mysterious what their origins are. Saying someone has J2a1b, J1a2b, J2b2, E1b-V13, is like saying someone has R.

R1b1a2-M269(xP311) is popular at 5%+. Added E1b-V13 and J2b2, it's tempting to say there's Balkan input in Italy. Because R1b-Z2103, E1b-V13, and J2b2 are the most popular HGs in the Balkans. Italy is kind of in it's on world, being separated by the Alps and Mediterranean sea, and therefore could have a differnt history than mainland Europe were we have ancient genomes from. It'll be interesting to see what ancient DNA reveals. There's a study with Paleolithic-Bronze age DNA from Italy coming out in the next few years.
 

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