Religion Can Muslims live peacefully with Christians, and vice versa?

[Sile]

What is the significance of this image? Is this from the Byzantine Empire?

yes it is ............the heads indicated , one looking to the east and the other looking to the west

The albanians and serbs both claim this avatar as they seem to not be able to create there own and wish to obtain some of Byzantium glory

 

[Sile]

Yes, old Byzantine heraldic. Used later in Serbian medieval coat of arms. Than again, later adopted by Skenderbeg. Currently used by Albanians, don't know why because they don't quite relate to those values. Their version is in fact a Serbian coat of arms with black eagle instead of white, as would be:

View attachment 7519

but serbs first COA was a boar of the triballi tribe

and

albanians was a ragged mountain sheep........I initially thought it was a goat, but I was corrected by an albanian who said it was a sheep.

 

[LABERIA]

Yes, old Byzantine heraldic. Used later in Serbian medieval coat of arms. Than again, later adopted by Skenderbeg. Currently used by Albanians, don't know why because they don't quite relate to those values. Their version is in fact a Serbian coat of arms with black eagle instead of white, as would be:

View attachment 7519

So, in your post as usual, you are trying to offend albanians in our national symbol, following your method, lying. And second using this words:
Currently used by Albanians, don't know why because they don't quite relate to those values.
My question is simple: You are a serb, do you know the history of your country?
Of course we are relate to those values, we don`t share the same values with you. I have explained once, it`s ridiculos when serbs try to behave like knights of christianity. We know that you were very good collaborators of the ottomans. You can not deny the history. History is ruthless.
When Ottomans came to Balcan you chose to be their best collaborators, it was a race between orthodox in Balacan, which would be the greatest collaborator of the turks. Of course, Albanians were stupids, because they decided to fight against the ottomans. You guy were smart. The problem is that in modern time you are trying with all by all means to hide certain truths. It is evident, you fill shame from your history.
And you Serbs, like all Orthodox (excluding orthodox Albanians) you chose to collaborate with the Turks, but in your case there are some specific element. In order to preserve their power the serbian nobilty, prefered to send their daughters, to the different sultans harems, not as noblewoman but as.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivera_Despina

Mileva Olivera Lazarević, Despina Hatun (Serbian Cyrillic: Деспина Оливера Лазаревић; 1372 – after 1444) was the youngest daughter of Lazar of Serbia and Princess Milica and the wife of Ottoman Sultan Bayezid I, whom she married just after the Battle of Kosovo in 1389, as a pledge of peace between the Lazarević and Ottoman dynasties. After the marriage, she became Despina Hatun (Turkish for "Lady Despina").

Olivera Despina Hatun was born around 1372, the youngest daughter of Prince Lazar and Princess Milica of Serbia. Her mother was a descendant of Grand Prince (Veliki župan) Stefan Nemanja, the founder of the Nemanjić dynasty and the fourth cousin once removed of Emperor Dušan of Serbia. Olivera had four older sisters, Mara (mother of Serbian despot Đurađ Branković), Dragana, Teodora, and Jelena (mother of Balša III, the last ruler of Zeta) and two brothers, Serbian despot Stefan Lazarević and Vuk. After the Battle of Kosovo in 1389, Olivera was sent to the harem of sultan Bayezid I, where she remained for the next 12 years and became one of sultan's four wives (in addition to his concubines).

Despite her marriage, she never converted to Islam.

Who care about this. Hahahaha.

And here is the most interesting part

She had a great influence on the sultan, which helped her people, country, and family survive the turbulent times.

I have to accept, you are very smart.

In the Battle of Ankara on 20 July 1402, Olivera and Bayezid were captured by Timur. She was released in 1403, after her husband's death in captivity.

Now according to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayezid_I

Many writers claim that Bayezid was mistreated by the Timurids.

But i am sure that with Lady Despina he was very kind. She was being sacrificed. The father of Bayezid, Murad I was the person who kill the father of Despina, Prince Lazar in the battle of Kosova.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Branković

Mara Branković (c. 1416 in Vučitrn – 14 September 1487), also known as Sultana Marija, Mara Hatun, Despina Hatun, or Amerissa, was the daughter of Serbian monarch Đurađ (George) Branković and Eirene Kantakouzene. She entered the harem of Sultan Murad II of the Ottoman Empire.^[1] The coast between Salonica and Kassandra peninsula has been named "Kalamarija" after her – "Mary the Good".

Marriage

According to Fine, Mara was betrothed to Murad II in June 1431. The betrothal was an attempt to prevent an invasion of Serbia from the Ottoman Empire, though periodic Ottoman raids continued. On 4 September 1435, the marriage took place at Edirne. Her dowry included the districts of Dubočica and Toplica.

Can we say? Your tactics were very, very interesting.
And this are only two examples, because the list of the serbian noblewoman which were send by their fathers, brothers and husbands, is really long.
No. We don`t share the same values. We prefere to die like man, instead to send our womans.
But serbs fought against the Ottomans. Wiki say this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Serbian–Turkish_conflicts
Nice. Let me chose one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo_(1448)
Let see what serb net-warrior had prepare for us.

The Second Battle of Kosovo (Hungarian: második rigómezei csata, Turkish: İkinci Kosova savaşı) (17 October–20 October 1448) was fought at Kosovo Polje between a coalition of the Kingdom of Hungary and Wallachia led by John Hunyadi, against an Ottoman-led coalition under Sultan Murad II.
In 1448, John Hunyadi saw the right moment to lead a campaign against the Ottoman Empire. After the Defeat of Varna (1444), he raised another army to attack the Ottomans. His strategy was based on an expected revolt of the Balkan people, a surprise attack, and destroying the main force of the Ottomans in a single battle. Hunyadi was totally immodest and led his forces without leaving any escort behind.
In September 1448 Hunyadi led the Hungarian forces across the Danube river and camped them in Serbia next to Kovin, just outside the Serbian capital of Smederevo. For a full month the Hungarians were encamped there awaiting the German crusaders, the Wallachian Duke as well as the Bohemian and Albanian army.^[5] The Albanian army under Skanderbeg did not participate in this battle as he was prevented from linking with the Hunyadi's army by the Ottomans and their allies.^[5][6] It is believed that he was delayed by Đurađ Branković, then allied with Sultan Murad II, although Brankovic's exact role is disputed.^[7][8][9] As a result, Skanderbeg ravaged Branković's domains as a punishment for the desertion of Christian cause.^[6][10]
The Serbian Despot Đurađ Branković reacted ambiguously at the trespassing and negotiated the terms of joining the Crusade against the Ottomans over that period of time. Hunyadi had told Brankovic that he had brought 20,000 of his own men, awaiting additional reinforcements, and that he [Brankovic] with his light cavalry was the only ally necessary to make this a decisive victory. Brankovic was weary, having had his realm restored after a full-scale Ottoman occupation only in 1444, and, fully aware of the strength of the Ottoman military force, wanting to keep his throne. Despot Brankovic was also unwilling to set himself under Hunyadi's command under any condition, as he personally disliked him, considering him of lower stature.

The Serbian rejection and positioning as a neutral side had led to Hunyadi's fury and the Crusaders' decision to treat Serbia as hostile territory. At the end of the negotiations, Hunyadi had threatened to kill Brankovic in person after his country was occupied. In late September 1448, Hunyadi had amassed 30,000 men and moved southwards. The Crusaders pillaged and burned across Serbia, but the Serb Despot gave an explicit order of free passage, refusing to mount a reaction. However, he not only informed Sultan Murad II of the Crusaders' advance, out of both personal interest of friendship with the sultan and anger towards Hunyadi, but also gave him tactical strategic advice regarding the best way to defeat the Crusaders, a plan which the Ottomans followed.^{[citation needed]}The idea included letting the Europeans advance deep into Serbian territory, far away from their homeland and then cut off their supply routes, effectively closing them in from all sides and trapping them.^{[citation needed]}
Battle

The Crusaders arrived at the Kosovo Field, the same place the most famous battle in Kosovo in 1389, between Serbs and Ottomans, had occurred, facing an Ottoman army of up to 60,000. Sultan Murad personally commanded a large section of cannons and janissaries, while his son and successor Mehmed, who faced battle for the first time, led the Anatolian troops at the right wing. Hunyadi commanded the center of his army at the battle, while the Crusaders right wing was under the Wallachians. The Hungarians had long barrage cannons.
The next day the battle opened when Hunyadi attacked the Ottoman flanks with mixed cavalry (light and heavy). The Turkish flanks, consisting of soldiers from Rumelia and Anatolia, were losing until Turkish light cavalry arrived to reinforce them. The Christian flanks were subsequently routed and the survivors retreated back to Hunyadi's main force. When Hunyadi saw the defeat of his flanks, he attacked with his main force, composed of knights and light infantry. The janissary corps were not successful and the cavalry made progress through the Turkish center, but were stopped at the Turkish camp. When the main attack was halted, the Turkish infantry regrouped and successfully drove the Hungarian knights back. The light cavalry, who were now without the knights' support were also overcome. Hungarian forces retreated to their camp. During the retreat, the janissaries killed most of the Hungarian nobles and Hunyadi fled. However, Serbs later captured him. During the night, Turkish infantry fired missiles at the Hungarians who replied with cannons. On the next day, a final assault totally annihilated the remaining Hungarian army.
The two-day battle in Kosovo saw both sides take heavy casualties but left the Ottoman force in command of the field at the end of the second day. The Hungarians' army possibly amounted to 24,000^[1][2][3] and the Turkish between 40,000 and 60,000.^[1][2]
Aftermath

The Christian Balkan states were unable to resist the Ottomans after this defeat, eventually falling under control of the Ottoman Empire. After the battle Hunyadi was captured by Brankovic, who didn't release him until a ransom of 100,000 florins, the return of the domains that Hunyadi had revocated from Brankovic and the engagement of Hunyadi's heir to Brankovic's daughter were agreed upon.^[11] For the remainder of his reign Hunyadi successfully defended the Kingdom of Hungary against the Ottoman campaigns. Skanderbeg also successfully continued his resistance in Albania until his death in 1468, 10 years later the country fell under full Ottoman control.

What a great battle. I have to accept that you are very smart.
No. We don`t share the same values. We chose to fight the Ottomans.
One of the most important battle between Islam and christianity was:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople
Again in this battle you like good servs were with the Ottomas. There is an interesting book:
S. Runciman, The Fall of Constantinople 1453, Cambridge 1965.
If you read, you can find that there were Serb troops (1500 cavaliers led by vojvoda Jakša + the miners). But Wiki said about this glorious battle of the serbs?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakša

Jakša (Serbian Cyrillic: Јакша^[A]; fl. 1452-1453), was a military commander (voivodа, Duke) in the Serbian Despotate, under Đurađ Branković. In 1452, he was sent as a deputy of the Despot to Dubrovnik. As an Ottoman vassal, Đurađ was forced to send an army to participate in the siege of Constantinople (1453). Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror did not tell Đurađ his intentions, but said that the cavalry would travel to Karaman. The sultan slaughtered civilians on his way to Constantinople, which he quickly besieged, Duke Jakša hearing of this, wanted to return but was warned that if they would not continue, the Sultan would destroy the Serbs. The cavalry reached Constantinople, which had been the cradle of Southeastern Christianity and culture, serving as the capital of the now destroyed Byzantine Empire. In his army was Konstantin Mihailović.

Hahahahahahahha.
We have to accept that you were good christians but the fault was of that liar Mehmed II.

But the capolavoro of the serbs was the surrender of capital of Serbia, Smederevo. It was not an act of some traitor. No. All the people of Smederevo, rich and poor decided for this, in a democratic way to open the gate of the city to the Ottomans and to collaborate with them.
We can continue with other curious storys from the resistance of this proud christians against Islam. I am sure that hungarian from their side have to said a lot. But i think is enough for everybody to have an clear idea of the matter.
So, all this servility and submission did not saved the serbs. After all of this, the serb nation just disappeared, ceased to exist. The jungle has tough laws, there is no place for crawlers. The only thing that continue from that nation was:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Orthodox_Church
And here we have a very curious detail:

The Serbian Patriarchate was restored in 1557 by the Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent, thanks to the mediation of the statesman Sokollu Mehmet Pasha.

Gyus, it`s funny. It was a musslim bosniak who saved the Orthodox Church of Serbia.
But you have to comfort yourself, because you were not alone in these values. There were and others that share the same values with you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius

Mehmed therefore sought the most anti-Western cleric he could find as a figure of unity for the Greeks under Turkish rule – and Gennadius as leading anti-Union figure was a natural choice. On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (dikanikion) and mantle. This ceremonial investiture would be repeated by all Sultans and Patriarchs thereafter.

And her we have a beautiful picture:

You see? Wonderful painting. My God, the Emperor probably was still unburied.
And what about albanians in all this story?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg

However, during an ambush in the same battle, Ballaban managed to capture some important Albanian noblemen, including Moisi Arianit Golemi, a cavalry commander, Vladan Gjurica, the chief army quartermaster, Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew of Skanderbeg, and 18 other officers.^[119] These men were sent immediately to Constantinople where they were skinned alive for fifteen days and later cut to pieces and thrown to the dogs.^[119] Skanderbeg's pleas to have these men back, by either ransom or prisoner exchange, failed.

Well, i have to admit, you are smart people. Why you have to fight like this crazy Albanians?

All this until XVIII when mother Russia came in Balcan and started it`s project of expansionism. Was the russian who told to the orthodox of North Balcan: "Hey you are serbian, because you are orthodox". And speaking about the flag, again was Russia who provided an flag for Serbia. Because the modern serbs did not had a national flag. It`s normal, they were a young and fresh nation.

http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna/reportaze/aktuelno.293.html:186456-Hej-Boze-pravde

I ZASTAVA NAOPAKO
NAŠA zastava je ista kao i ruska, samo okrenuta naopako. Postoji priča, tvrdi Konstantin Babić, da je jedna delegacija u vreme Karađorđa otišla u Rusiju po pomoć, a tada se tamo odigravala neka svečanost. Kada su prisutni pitali zašto i Srbi ne idu u svečanu povorku, oni su u brzini ušli i okrenuli zastavu naopako. Okupljeni građani su "primetili" da i Srbi imaju svoje obeležje.

Gg translator

Our flag is the same as the Russian, only upside down. There is a story, says Konstantin Babic, that one delegation at the time of Karadjordje went to Russia for help, and then there took place a ceremony. When present asked why Serbs do not go in solemn procession, they hastily entered and turned the Russian flag upside down. The citizens have thus "noticed" that Serbs have their flag too.

Do you see? We don`t share a lot of things.

 

[LABERIA]

I have said once to you, from your posts i can deduce that you are a man arround 45-50 years old. Don`t you fill shame for this kind of posts? And if one day your wife or your children decide: Hey let see what dad says in this forum? How do you explain to them?

you are a Turk-Alban,

Why you ofend my nation an my flag? Who have been in Greece know that greeks and turks have the same face. You are one race. The only difference is the religion.
You forget my posts:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30592-Balkanian-disagreements?p=468036&viewfull=1#post468036
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31367-Future-of-Greece?p=467639&viewfull=1#post467639
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31367-Future-of-Greece?p=467640&viewfull=1#post467640




It was not enough for you, Professor Efthimiou, Ioannis Kolettis, Greek Helsinki? You want more? Ok, i will give you more.



During XIX century more than 100 western travellers visited Greece. This people were in Greece for different reasons. Let`s read one of them. Be careful at the footnotes:

Do you see your BS about turkalbanian? Do you see the different social classes. The Albanians, musslims and christians and the rayah. The Albanian Palikari and the Barbatches, an amorphous mass without national identity. All this to explain to you this word, turkalbanian.

Let see something very interesting:

Yetos, we have a beautifull flag. The flag of Scanderbeg.
Let`s see yours.

This is the page of Wiki in english about The Greek revolution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence
Every revolution has a symbolic moment. This is the symbolic moment of the Greek Revolution brought to us by this beautiful painting :

Theodoros Vryzakis (oil painting, 1852, Benaki Museum, Athens) illustrates Bishop Germanos of old Patras blessing the Greek banner at Agia Lavra on the outset of the national revolt against the Turks on 25 March 1821.
Well, it`s a FAKE . Not the paining, but this moment of greek history.
Let see what greek teachers had to said about this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Workers_Militant_Front

The All-Workers Militant Front (Greek: Πανεργατικό Αγωνιστικό Μέτωπο, ΠΑΜΕ, Panergatiko Agonistiko Metopo, PAME) is a coordination centre within the Greek trade union movement, founded on the initiative of Communist Party of Greece trade-unionists in April 1999. Amongst its membership are also cadres of Communist Renewal. PAME is critical of the official positions and leadership of the General Confederation of Greek Workers. According to its website, the trade unions that are affiliated in PAME have 415,000 members in total as of 2005. As of June 2012, according to the Communist Party of Greece, PAME affiliated unions have 850,000 members.^[1] PAME is internationally affiliated with the World Federation of Trade Unions.

http://www.902.gr/eidisi/neolaia-pa...kon-toy-pame-stoys-mathites-gia-tin-25i-marti

Επιστολή εκπαιδευτικών του ΠΑΜΕ στους μαθητές για την 25η Μάρτη



Είναι ώρα να πούμε τα πράγματα με το όνομά τους!

Δεν σου κάνει εντύπωση το γεγονός ότι γιορτάζουμε την έναρξη της επανάστασης του 1821 στις 25 Μάρτη, ενώ ήδη στις 23 Μάρτη του 1821 η Καλαμάτα και άλλα μέρη της Πελοποννήσου είχαν απελευθερωθεί από τους Τούρκους;

Η απάντηση είναι ότι με διάταγμα του 1838, δηλαδή 17 χρόνια αργότερα, ορίσθηκε εθνική γιορτή η μέρα του Ευαγγελισμού για να ντύσουν την επανάσταση με θρησκευτικό μανδύα.

Όμως η επίσημη Εκκλησία δεν ήταν υπέρ της Επανάστασης. Όταν ο Παπαφλέσας συναντήθηκε με τον Παλαιών Πατρών Γερμανό για να του πει ότι όλα ήταν έτοιμα για την επανάσταση, ο τελευταίος άρχισε να τον βρίζει ότι είναι απατεώνας. Ο Παλαιών Πατρών Γερμανός μάλιστα είχε πει: «Ας αφήσουμε τα παιδιά του Μωάμεθ να αποτελειώσουν τα παιδιά του Ροβεσπιέρου»!

Ένας από τους κοτζαμπάσηδες, δηλαδή τους Έλληνες άρχοντες της εποχής, είπε «κάλλιο οι Τούρκοι κι ο ραγιάς υπόδουλος, παρά λεύτερο έθνος με το λαό να ’χει δικαιώματα»!

Είναι ψέμα ότι ο Παλαιών Πατρών Γερμανός ύψωσε πρώτος τη σημαία της επανάστασης του 1821. Τη σημαία στην Πάτρα την ύψωσε ο λαϊκός ηγέτης Παναγιώτης Καρατζάς, τον οποίο δολοφόνησαν οι πρόκριτοι της Πάτρας.


Τι σημαίνει αυτό;
Ξέρεις άραγε ότι στα πλοία του Μιαούλη, το πλήρωμα δεν ήξερε καθόλου την ελληνική γλώσσα και ότι μιλούσε αρβανίτικα;

Ξέρεις ότι οι επαναστάτες του 1821 δεν χωρίζανε το λαό σε Έλληνα και ξένο; Ο Ρήγας Φεραίος καλούσε Χριστιανούς και Τούρκους σε κοινό αγώνα για το γκρέμισμα της οθωμανικής κυριαρχίας και στη δημιουργία μιας Βαλκανικής Ομοσπονδίας.

Η επανάσταση του 1821 δεν ήταν θρησκευτικός πόλεμος, ξεσηκωμός των Χριστιανών κατά των Μωαμεθανών.

Ήρθαν στιγμές που Έλληνες και Τούρκοι πολέμησαν μαζί, εναντίον των Βενετών, των Ισπανών και του Πάπα (και αντίστροφα), προτιμώντας οι Έλληνες ραγιάδες την τουρκική από τη δυτικοευρωπαϊκή φεουδαρχία, αφού η τελευταία υπήρξε κατά πολύ σκληρότερη της τουρκικής.

Αλλά και οι Φιλέλληνες της Δυτικής Ευρώπης που συμμετείχαν στην επανάσταση του 1821, είχαν ταξικά κίνητρα: Να κυριαρχήσουν τα ιδανικά και οι σκοποί της μεγάλης (αστικής) Γαλλικής Επανάστασης, ανεξάρτητα από το ότι υπήρχε και ο θαυμασμός τους για την αρχαία παιδεία. Και όπως γνωρίζουμε, η εκκλησία στη Γαλλία δεν πέρασε και πολύ καλές ημέρες κατά τη Γαλλική Επανάσταση...

Letter teachers PAME students for March 25
It's time to call things with their names.
I am not surprised that we celebrate the start of the revolution of 1821 on March 25, and already on March 23, 1821 Kalamata and other parts of the Peloponnese had been liberated from the Turks.

The answer is that by decree of 1838, ie 17 years later, was appointed national feast day of the Annunciation to dress the revolution religious mantle.

But the official Church was not in favor of the Revolution. When Papaflesas met with Bishop Germanos of Old Patras to tell him that everything was ready for the revolution, he began to revile that a crook. The Old Bishop Germanos of Patras had even said: "Let the children of Muhammad to finish the children Robespierre!"

One of the notables, that the Greek rulers of the time, said, "better with Turks and enslaved rayas despite liberty of the nation and to the people anyway rights"!

It is a lie that Bishop Germanos of Old Patras raised the first flag of the Revolution of 1821. The flag on the Patras raised the popular leader Panagiotis Karatzas, whom was murdered by the notables of Patras.

What does this mean;

Do you know that the ships of Miaoulis, the crew did not knew the Greek language and spoke Arvanitika (i.e. Albanian)?

Yessss, we know this and a lot of other things.

You know that the revolutionaries of 1821 did not divide the people in Greek and foreign? Rigas Fereos called Christians and Turks in a common struggle for the demolition of Ottoman rule and the creation of a Balkan Federation.

The revolution of 1821 was not a religious war, uprising of Christians against Muslims.

There was times when Greeks and Turks fought together against the Venetians, Spaniards and Pope (and vice versa), preferring to be rayahs of Turkish instead of the Western European feudalism, since the latter was far harsher from Turkish.

But the philhellenes Western Europe who participated in the revolution of 1821 had class incentives: To dominate the ideals and goals of large (urban) French Revolution, whatever that was, and their admiration for ancient culture. And as we know, the Church in France and spent very good days during the French Revolution ...

All this they will not say in the textbooks because they want to know what the revolution to draw the right conclusions for today and your life.

Why you deny that you were good friends with turks? Why you call the other turks? You were in a fine position under the turkish rule, you were Barbatches. Why you tell to the people lies?

You accuse albanians as terorrist? Really? Do you see any connection between the recent attacks in Paris and this declarations?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...ihadists-and-immigrants-if-greece-fails-warns

Greek Minister Threatens Europe With Flood Of Jihadists And Immigrants If Greece Fails

It wasn't even a full 24 hours after Greece raided at least some of the funds of its pension and other public entities in order to make a €310 payment to the IMF, the first of four this month (the balance is 350 million on March 13, 580 million on March 16 and another 350 million on March 20), that the insolvent country resumed doing what it does best: dispensing hollow threats. This time it was its foreign minister and leader of the Independent Greeks party - Syriza's junion coalition partner - Nikos Kotzias, who showed how to bluff like the best of them, when he threatened that "there will be tens of millions of immigrants and thousands of jihadists, if you take out Greece" the minister said on before EU foreign ministers meeting in Riga.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ts-including-jihadists-to-Western-Europe.html

Greece's defence minister threatens to send migrants including jihadists to Western Europe

Panos Kammenos, Greece's defence minister, threatens to open country's borders to refugees – including potential members of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) - unless Athens receives debt crisis support


Greece will unleash a “wave of millions of economic migrants” and jihadists on Europe unless the eurozone backs down on austerity demands, the country's defence and foreign ministers have threatened.

The threat comes as Greece struggles to convince the eurozone and International Monetery Fund to continue payments on a £172billion bailout of Greek finances.

That catholic priest in the avatar of Piro is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjergj_Fishta
He was an important personality in our history. He was also an excellent poet. It is said that he wrote this verses:
O fshatar o zemergur
Edhe sikur te nderrosh shtate lekure
Qytetar ti s`behesh kurre.

Oh you villager oh you stoneheart
even if you change seven skins
you will never become a citizen.

Your nation started as barbatches and today is a beggar.

 

[LABERIA]

but serbs first COA was a boar of the triballi tribe

and

albanians was a ragged mountain sheep........I initially thought it was a goat, but I was corrected by an albanian who said it was a sheep.

I invite you to see yourself in the mirror. I am sure that you will see not a goat or a sheep, but that tame animal used by Jesus.

 

[Piro Ilir]

What is the significance of this image? Is this from the Byzantine Empire?

No. If you read Albanian history you will understand. It's the flag from Roman empire. There was not a Byzantine empire. The flag comes from the Rome heritage of Albanians. When the empire was divided in two parts, the eagle showed up with two heads. The symbol of two heads mean, the two centers of the empire, Constantinople and Rome. The eagle was the symbol of Rome.

 

[Piro Ilir]

you are a Turk-Alban,

you use Byzantine war Flag of kastrioti,

you say about the muslim of balkans,
but you do not say that in Balkans are the 4rth, the 9nth, and the 12nth most Jihadist countries,
more than 650 Jihadists of DAESH are from Balkan muslim countries,
Albania Kossovo Bosnia

and you use the avatar of a catholic priest,

COME ON drop your mask,
and reveal who you really are

I am sure that your grand grand father was Ballaban pasha

muslims of balkans are not liberal,
Even in Albania news, which are a bit free than other Islamic countries, you hear every day that there is problem with Jihadists Imams,

Jihadist imams are paid to do that by the Arabs and Iranians.

You are insulting me, saying that I am a Turk. Look at the mirror first. Probably your ancestors were migrants from Asia minor, who settled in Greek Macedonia [emoji6]. You know well, what I am talking about. Everyone knows that the most similar physically to the Turkish race, looks the Greeks. [emoji57]. So better look at the mirror first.

And stop insulting Scanderbeg and the best flag in the world. I am not insulting your invented flag, by some British romanticists and clasicists of 1830 . Your ancestors don't even fought for their own country independence. Indeed the army was filled by arvanites and vlachs. Even the majority of Greece at that time was not ethnically Greek.

 

[Piro Ilir]

yes it is ............the heads indicated , one looking to the east and the other looking to the west

The albanians and serbs both claim this avatar as they seem to not be able to create there own and wish to obtain some of Byzantium glory

You are wrong about that. It's not Byzantine, it's Roman. The two heads of the eagle shows the two capitals of the empire. A large part of the Albanian language is of Latin origin, because of the long period of coexistence with the Romans. The cultural connection of Albanians two the Roman empire it's proven by the scholars

 

[Piro Ilir]

Yetos,
this is in the middle of Skopje, Macedonia:

Macedonia voted pro Kosova in UNESCO. The same did, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Turkey, Croatia Slovenia. Which mean that the only one in the region who is against the Albanians it's Greece. Albania it's pro Macedonia either.

And, Yetos don't be jealous because you don't have a great hero as Scanderbeg and a beautiful flag as the Albanian one.

 

[Yetos]

Yetos,
this is in the middle of Skopje, Macedonia:

And, Yetos don't be jealous because you don't have a great hero as Scanderbeg and a beautiful flag as the Albanian one.

you are funny,

you are a son of Ballaban pasha,
and you claim Kstrioti.
you are a Turk-Alban
but you use Catholic bishop as avatar,

what is next?
maybe you are an aromanian
but you claim to be Albanian?

thank you i needed that laugh.

at Skopjie there is also this Phillip

so what?


AND ALSO THIS Dusan

is at Skopjie,


Oh do not forget him Samuel

So what?

tomorow they might have Merkel's Statue,
they are pluralistic culture, new so open,
and they spend huge amounts of money to decorate their city, which was a reason for big inner argue.
Does this change that you a descendant of Balaban pasha,
a statue at Skopjie?

 

[Yetos]

You are wrong about that. It's not Byzantine, it's Roman. The two heads of the eagle shows the two capitals of the empire. A large part of the Albanian language is of Latin origin, because of the long period of coexistence with the Romans. The cultural connection of Albanians two the Roman empire it's proven by the scholars

wow?

So Byzantine was not Roman?

and the Latin in ALbania could it be Aromanian?


just wondering :innocent:

 

[Yetos]

Jihadist imams are paid to do that by the Arabs and Iranians.

You are insulting me, saying that I am a Turk. Look at the mirror first. Probably your ancestors were migrants from Asia minor, who settled in Greek Macedonia [emoji6]. You know well, what I am talking about. Everyone knows that the most similar physically to the Turkish race, looks the Greeks. [emoji57]. So better look at the mirror first.

And stop insulting Scanderbeg and the best flag in the world. I am not insulting your invented flag, by some British romanticists and clasicists of 1830 . Your ancestors don't even fought for their own country independence. Indeed the army was filled by arvanites and vlachs. Even the majority of Greece at that time was not ethnically Greek.

phhhhhhhh

you do not even the story of my flag,
and invented that British design it,

your imagination runs fast,
so fast that you create stories and theories.

 

[Yetos]

Jihadist imams are paid to do that by the Arabs and Iranians.

You are insulting me, saying that I am a Turk. Look at the mirror first. Probably your ancestors were migrants from Asia minor, who settled in Greek Macedonia [emoji6]. You know well, what I am talking about. Everyone knows that the most similar physically to the Turkish race, looks the Greeks. [emoji57]. So better look at the mirror first.

And stop insulting Scanderbeg and the best flag in the world. I am not insulting your invented flag, by some British romanticists and clasicists of 1830 . Your ancestors don't even fought for their own country independence. Indeed the army was filled by arvanites and vlachs. Even the majority of Greece at that time was not ethnically Greek.

why you are a blond with blue eyes Normand? or Slav? from how it was call the Serb? Nem...
sorry can not remember

 

[Ike]

but serbs first COA was a boar of the triballi tribe

Two headed eagle was before the boar. The first mention of the boar as Serbian COA was from 1415. It is always possible it was COA for centuris, but nowhere it is attested AFAIK.

And speaking about the flag, again was Russia who provided an flag for Serbia. Because the modern serbs did not had a national flag. It`s normal, they were a young and fresh nation.
Do you see? We don`t share a lot of things.

It's the same COA dude, get over it...

https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Немањићи

Medieval Serbian COA of Nemanjic:

https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srpsko-albansko_prijateljstvo

Flag of Serbian-Albanian friendship:

 

[Yetos]

No. If you read Albanian history you will understand. It's the flag from Roman empire. There was not a Byzantine empire. The flag comes from the Rome heritage of Albanians. When the empire was divided in two parts, the eagle showed up with two heads. The symbol of two heads mean, the two centers of the empire, Constantinople and Rome. The eagle was the symbol of Rome.

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT HISTORY YOU LEARN IN ALBANIA

THE FIRST 2 HEAD EAGLE

WAS DEDICATED TO 'PATRIARCHA ECUMENICA .. NOVA ROMA' at around 360 AD if remember correct

BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONLY PATRIARCH that had 2 continents,

Europe and Asia

Jerusalem patriarch only Judea/Palestine/Cyprus
Antocheia Patriarch/Pope only ASIA
Alexandreia Patriarch/Pope only AFRICA
Roma Patriarch/pope only EUROPE

Nova Roma Patriarch EUROPE AND ASIA (East and West)

BYZANTINE FLAGS

Yellow and black = Peace, law, order , given by God's grace through the Church, as Divine Mercy to Emperror
Yellow and red = presence of his majesty, imperial family, imperial officer, THE EMPEROR HIMSHELF

RED AND BLACK = WAR FLAG, ARMY FLAG, THE FLAG OF GENERAL Γ ΜΑΝΙΑΚΙΣ ARMY ONLY BY GENERALS

The above is the relic of Enstradioti (venicians understand that term well) from almost 1400+ AD




UNDERSTAND IT,
THAT IS GLOBAL HISTORY AND TRUTH,
NOT THE IMAGINATION OF SOME ALBANIAN SCHOLARS

ALL THE ARMY OF MANIAKIS WERE ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS,
AS ALL ARBANITES AND ALL ARBERESH BEFORE MOVE TO ITALY
CATHOLISISM ENTER ALBANIA WITH THE ANJU AND THE NORMANDS,
ISLAM ENTERED WITH YOUR GRAND FATHER BALLABAN PASHA

THE ABOVE ARE TRUTH THAT YOU CAN NOT DENY
KASTRIOTI WAS ORTHODOX AS MAJORITY OF THAT TIME ARBANITES AND THAT IS WHY THEY BURRY THERE,

The Flag of Krokodeilos KLADAS

UNDERSTAND IT ONCE AND FOR ALL

your Flag is symbol of Byzantium and orthodox church



In mt ATHOS (holy mountain of global orthodox churches)
they have one flag symbol of the Con/lis patriarch

neither Russian neither Serbian neither Bulgarian etc etc
Only the 2 head eagle symbol
you can see many flags there,
BUT MONKS FLAG IS THIS


and although I despite christianity and Byzantium
that is trouth

 

[LeBrok]

you are funny,

you are a son of Ballaban pasha,
and you claim Kstrioti.
you are a Turk-Alban
but you use Catholic bishop as avatar,
laban pasha,

Yetos, stop these insults. You have a warning this time.

 

[Yetos]

Yetos, stop these insults. You have a warning this time.

sory
but in my language there is not the word islam, or muslim, only the word mohamet and mohametism and mohamethanoi or Turks the followers
Μωαμεθ Μωαμεθανισμος Μωαμεθανοι or Tourkoi not Islam neither muslim
so when someone turns to Mohamet we say he τουρκεψε (become a Turk)

when someone turns to Islam
we say he become Turk

so Turko-Polonos is the muslim Polish
Turko-Germanos is the muslim Deutsch
Turko-American are the Muslim of USA

with Turko-Alban means the Albanians who changed to Islam
sory but it has history 900 years that word, and 600 years history the term
in my language we do not have another word for he who turned to Islam, we say he become a Turk
even muslim Roma we call them τουρκογυφτοι
to distinguish them from others

 

[LABERIA]

sory
but in my language ...........

Sorry, in which language?

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2011/11/12/commentary/modern-greece-built-on-myth/#.Vf-uqn2xdR_

Modern Greece built on myth

by George Zakardakis

The Washington Post


ATHENS – Greece is the cradle of democracy, but as the world has seen recently, a financial crisis is no time to put important questions to the people. Prime Minister George Papandreou’s proposed referendum on the country’s loan deal with the European Union, called off quickly after intense international opposition, illustrated that perfectly.
Plato and Aristotle would have approved of dropping the referendum. They didn’t like democracy of the direct kind. Neither trusted the people that much.
Sinking deeper into the gravest economic crisis in its postwar history, Greece is no nearer to finding an exit from its woes. A toxic mix of anxiety and fear hangs in the air in Athens. The ordeal shows that living up to lofty idealism is never easy. Modern Greeks know that well for we are, in many ways, the imperfect reflection of an ideal that the West imagined for itself.
When the Greek crisis began two years ago, the cover of a popular German magazine showed an image of Aphrodite of Milo gesturing crudely with the headline: “The fraudster in the euro family.” In the article, modern Greeks were described as indolent sloths, cheats and liars, masters of corruption, unworthy descendents of their glorious Hellenic past.

The irony was that modern Greece has little in common with Pericles or Plato. If anything, it is a failed German project.

In 1832, Greece had just won its independence from the Ottoman Empire. The “Big Powers” of the time, Britain, France and Russia, appointed a Bavarian prince, Otto, as Greece’s first king. Otto arrived with German architects, engineers, doctors and soldiers and set out to reconfigure the country to the romantic ideal of the times.
The 19th century had seen a resurgence of Europeans’ interest in ancient Greece. Goethe, Shelley, Byron, Delacroix and other artists, poets and musicians sought inspiration in classical beauty. They longed for a lost purity in thought, aesthetics and warm-blooded passion.
Revisiting the sensual Greece of Orpheus and Sappho was ballast to the detached coolness of science or the dehumanizing onslaught of the Industrial Revolution.
Otto ensured that modern Greece lived up to that romantic image. Athens, then a small hamlet, was inaugurated as the capital. The architects from Munich designed and built a royal palace, an academy, a library and beautiful neoclassical edifices. Modern Greece was thus invented as a backdrop to contemporary European art and imagination, a historical precursor of many Disneylands to come.

Otto was eventually expelled by a coup. But the foundations of historical misunderstanding had been laid, to haunt Greece and its relations with itself and other European nations forever.

No matter what Otto may have imagined, the truth was that my forefathers, the brave people who started fighting for their freedom against the Turks in 1821, had not been in suspended animation for 2,000 years. Although their bonds with the land, the ruined temples and the myths were strong, they were not walking around in white cloaks with laurel wreaths. They were Christian orthodox, conservative and fiercely antagonistic toward their governing institutions. In other words, they were an embarrassment to all those folks in Berlin, Paris and London who expected resurrected philosophers sacrificing to Zeus.
The profound gap between the ancient and the modern had to be bridged, to satisfy Europe’s romantic expectations of Greece. So a historical narrative was put together claiming uninterrupted continuity with the ancient past, which became the central dogma of Greek national policy and identity.

Growing up in Greece in the 1970s, I had to learn not one but three Greek languages. First was the demotic parlance of everyday life. But at school, we were taught something different: “katharevousa” (“cleansed”), a language designed by 19th-century intellectuals to purify demotic from the cornucopia of borrowed Turkish, Slavic and Latin words.

Finally, we had to study ancient Greek, the language of our classical ancestors, the heroes of Marathon and Thermopylae. Most of us managed to learn none of the three, ending up mixing them in one grammatically anarchic jargon that communicated the confusion of our age.

Greek society suffers from an equal number of divisions.
First is the political class that for almost two centuries now has shown subservience to foreign masters. They discovered early that claiming to be Euripides’ relative goes a long way toward procuring handsome loans and diplomatic sympathies.

The geopolitical position of Greece, controlling shipping routes from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean, also helps. No wonder that modern Greece never became truly independent. It has always been much too easy to be dependent on foreign power and capital.
Becoming a member of the European Union and of the eurozone, only to amass a titanic debt, has been the latest chapter in this modern odyssey.
Second, the intellectuals dream of a truly Westernized Greece through some miracle of economic and social science. When the loan referendum was announced, most of them opposed it. Greece had to show that it belonged to the European family of nations, whatever that may mean. Rebellion was not to be tolerated, lest the country was kicked out of the euro, the symbol of Greek westernization.
Ultimately the intellectuals and politicians, with persuasion from angry European leaders and technocrats, had the referendum quashed. Besides, the invention of fantastical modern Greece demanded that its people, the third division of society, also remained imaginary.

Naturally, they are real as anything. They despise the loss of their sovereignty as well as the bitter medicine prescribed by their European brethren for their “rescue.” Austerity enforced by unelected officials from the European Commission, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank is perceived as not remedy but punishment, a distasteful concept to the orthodox Greeks whose core value is mercy.
Burdened with the improbable weight of forefathers who supposedly laid the foundations of Western civilization, driven by strong cultural undercurrents that undermine the state’s authority, they long for the realization of a dream promised by their political class: that Greece can somehow be something different than the rest of the world, a utopia where mortals can live like Olympians.
Like the children of famous parents they could never possibly surpass, they bask in impossible desires, unable to summon the self-confidence to make their own way in the world.
The Greek financial crisis is a crisis of identity as much as anything else. Unless the people redefine themselves, this could become the perfect catastrophe: a country designed as a romantic theme park two centuries ago, propped up with loans ever since, and unable to adjust to the crude realities of 21st-century globalization.

George Zarkadakis is the author of the novel “The Island Survival Guide.”

 

[LABERIA]

The Greek financial crisis is a crisis of identity as much as anything else. Unless the people redefine themselves, this could become the perfect catastrophe:a country designed as a romantic theme park two centuries ago, propped up with loans ever since, and unable to adjust to the crude realities of 21st-century globalization.

http://www.kathimerini.gr/330972/article/epikairothta/politikh/den-yparxoyn-idiwtika-aei-sthn-eyrwph
Professor Thanos Veremis, President of Greece's National Council of Education and founding member of the influential think-tank Hellenic Foundation for Defence and Foreign Policy (better known by its Greek acronym, ELIAMEP) made the following statement:

«Δυστυχώς είμαστε βαθιά συντηρητικοί ως κοινωνία. Αυτή η ομοιογένεια μας κάνει κακό. Αλλο τον 19ο αιώνα. Ευτυχώς τότε που ο Κοραής και οι άλλοι είχαν την έμπνευση να μας συνδέσουν με την αρχαία Ελλάδα - κι αυτό αποτέλεσε την κύρια ασχολία του νέου Κράτους. Υπήρχαν αρβανίτες, βλάχοι, σλάβοι. Ολοι αυτοί έπρεπε να γίνουν «ένα». Και έγιναν. Αλλά όχι και να πιστεύει σήμερα ότι είναι απόγονος του Περικλή. Τότε βοήθησε -αν και δεν αποφύγαμε έναν εμφύλιο- σήμερα δεν μας βοηθάει. Σήμερα δεν είμαστε μόνοι μας. Ζουν πολλοί άλλοι δίπλα μας. H κοινωνία πρέπει να προσαρμοστεί κι όχι να κλειστεί στον εαυτό της».

Gg translator.

"Unfortunately, we (Greeks) are deeply conservative as a society. This (ethnic) homogeneity has been harmful (to us). The situation during the 19th century was different. It was rather fortunate that at that time Koraes and others had the inspiration to connect us with Ancient Hellas (an undertaking) which became the main (pre)occupation of the newly born State. In those days, there were Arvanites, Vlachs and Slavs. All of them had to become (part of) one (national body). And so they became. But this is not to say that in this day and age (we/they) should be under the illusion that (we/they) are descendants of Pericles.This (assimilating process of ethnic/national homogenization) might have been helpful before -even though we could not avoid a civil war- but it does not help us nowadays. Today we are not alone. We are surrounded by many neighbors. The (Greek) society must adapt (to new realities) instead of remaining insular and introvert."

 

[Boreas]

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT HISTORY YOU LEARN IN ALBANIA

THE FIRST 2 HEAD EAGLE

WAS DEDICATED TO 'PATRIARCHA ECUMENICA .. NOVA ROMA' at around 360 AD if remember correct

BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONLY PATRIARCH that had 2 continents,

Europe and Asia

Jerusalem patriarch only Judea/Palestine/Cyprus
Antocheia Patriarch/Pope only ASIA
Alexandreia Patriarch/Pope only AFRICA
Roma Patriarch/pope only EUROPE

Nova Roma Patriarch EUROPE AND ASIA (East and West)

Now it is time to Greek tales. Please, just look at your nationalistic fair tales, then accuse others. All we are learning sided history in our public schools. Greece is not difference.

360AD??? You have to convince me.

The popular using of Duble-Head Eagle was in late East Roman Symbol(11th century).

And just after that Turks also started to use it very common.





BYZANTINE FLAGS

Yellow and black = Peace, law, order , given by God's grace through the Church, as Divine Mercy to Emperror
Yellow and red = presence of his majesty, imperial family, imperial officer, THE EMPEROR HIMSHELF

RED AND BLACK = WAR FLAG, ARMY FLAG, THE FLAG OF GENERAL Γ ΜΑΝΙΑΚΙΣ ARMY ONLY BY GENERALS

The above is the relic of Enstradioti (venicians understand that term well) from almost 1400+ AD




UNDERSTAND IT,
THAT IS GLOBAL HISTORY AND TRUTH,
NOT THE IMAGINATION OF SOME ALBANIAN SCHOLARS

ALL THE ARMY OF MANIAKIS WERE ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS,
AS ALL ARBANITES AND ALL ARBERESH BEFORE MOVE TO ITALY
CATHOLISISM ENTER ALBANIA WITH THE ANJU AND THE NORMANDS,
ISLAM ENTERED WITH YOUR GRAND FATHER BALLABAN PASHA

THE ABOVE ARE TRUTH THAT YOU CAN NOT DENY
KASTRIOTI WAS ORTHODOX AS MAJORITY OF THAT TIME ARBANITES AND THAT IS WHY THEY BURRY THERE,

The Flag of Krokodeilos KLADAS

UNDERSTAND IT ONCE AND FOR ALL

your Flag is symbol of Byzantium and orthodox church



In mt ATHOS (holy mountain of global orthodox churches)
they have one flag symbol of the Con/lis patriarch

neither Russian neither Serbian neither Bulgarian etc etc
Only the 2 head eagle symbol
you can see many flags there,
BUT MONKS FLAG IS THIS


and although I despite christianity and Byzantium
that is trouth[/QUOTE]