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Thread: Can Muslims live peacefully with Christians, and vice versa?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Can Muslims live peacefully with Christians, and vice versa?



    Loose discussions on Muslim versus Christians points of view, conflicts, and redirected off topic posts from other threads.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 12-11-15 at 07:21.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    On the future that whole Europe will be islamised. This would happen many years onward form now. Till that day the majority of Muslims would be less conservative than they are today. The Islam world of the future will a tolerant and liberal one. This happened with Christianity. Seems history repeat itself.
    how can you tell?
    what indications do you have? or is it just wishfull thinking?
    look what is happening in Turkey. I think Ataturk is turning in his grave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    how can you tell?
    what indications do you have? or is it just wishfull thinking?
    look what is happening in Turkey. I think Ataturk is turning in his grave.
    Progress is not linear phenomenon, it looks more like stock market chart. Imagine religious conservatism is at the bottom and libertarian society is a the top.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Let me tell you Guys, what will happen in Europe.

    Fanatic, Neo-Nazism behaviours against Muslims and Islam will start a new war wave.

    (Many major European city have important level of muslim citizen.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lim_population)

    and Christian Europe will lose their the biggest weapon in that war, which is Secular Muslims. After that, the voice of real enlightened people of Europe will decrease and this will continune like a hate vortex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    how can you tell?
    what indications do you have? or is it just wishfull thinking?
    look what is happening in Turkey. I think Ataturk is turning in his grave.
    First- my post was about the future. That would happen many years from now. It's assumed by the intelligence agencies.

    Erdogan took 49.2% of the voters. 1-Turkey is in war .
    2- erdogan had manipulated the elections, although partly.
    Even so he took less than 50%. He won because of the wrong elections system they have.

    Turkey is having democratic problems. It's going to a dictatorial state. Has nothing to do with Islam. I don't think erdogan is a Muslim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Let me tell you Guys, what will happen in Europe.

    Fanatic, Neo-Nazism behaviours against Muslims and Islam will start a new war wave.

    (Many major European city have important level of muslim citizen.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lim_population)

    and Christian Europe will lose their the biggest weapon in that war, which is Secular Muslims. After that, the voice of real enlightened people of Europe will decrease and this will continune like a hate vortex.
    Europe should be careful to this huge migration of Muslims. They are coming from areas of conservative Islam. This could infect Europe and change the demographic balances between the conservative Muslims and liberal Muslims. I hope they don't bring refugees from Syria in my country. There is a huge difference between the Muslims of Syria and the Muslims or Balkans. We don't want here that kind of Islam.

    I saw the Turkish elections in tv. I saw many women there covered with hijab. Even then wife of president it's covered. What the hell is happening there? They are destroying Turkey and that's too sad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    First- my post was about the future. That would happen many years from now. It's assumed by the intelligence agencies.

    Erdogan took 49.2% of the voters. 1-Turkey is in war .
    2- erdogan had manipulated the elections, although partly.
    Even so he took less than 50%. He won because of the wrong elections system they have.

    Turkey is having democratic problems. It's going to a dictatorial state. Has nothing to do with Islam. I don't think erdogan is a Muslim.
    I don't know whether Erdogan is a Muslim. But he made many comments in which he implies that Muslims are superior people who have nothing to learn from western values.
    Erdogan is very popular with Muslims who buy that kind of rhetoric. It is his main electorate.
    That is why it is so frightening what is happening in Turkey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Progress is not linear phenomenon, it looks more like stock market chart. Imagine religious conservatism is at the bottom and libertarian society is a the top.

    well, that doesn't look good for Europe
    as long as new non-secular Muslims keep coming in from the Middle East and countries like Afghanistan it will be a big problem
    I wish they became secular in the Middle East and Afghanistan first before coming over, but that won't happen soon, on the contrary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Let me tell you Guys, what will happen in Europe.

    Fanatic, Neo-Nazism behaviours against Muslims and Islam will start a new war wave.

    (Many major European city have important level of muslim citizen.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lim_population)

    and Christian Europe will lose their the biggest weapon in that war, which is Secular Muslims. After that, the voice of real enlightened people of Europe will decrease and this will continune like a hate vortex.
    Europe is not afraid of the secular Muslims
    the fundamentalist Muslims are enemies of both Christians and secular Muslims

    and Europe is not defending Christianity, it is defending secularism, something that seems to be disapearing in Turkey

    and I admit, for Europeans it is sometimes dificult to see the diference between secular and non-secular Muslims
    then again, you think all Europeans that don't agree with you are nazi

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    well, that doesn't look good for Europe
    as long as new non-secular Muslims keep coming in from the Middle East and countries like Afghanistan it will be a big problem
    I wish they became secular in the Middle East and Afghanistan first before coming over, but that won't happen soon, on the contrary
    People are fleeing en-masse from an entity that is literally the wet-dream of radical Muslims (the so-called "ISIS" or "Da'eesh"), do you really think its plausible that people who flee from this would become supporter of the same ideology? In my opinion, the mere existence of Da'eesh is something that in the long-run will force islamic fundamentalists to question their own believes and in the end, become more moderate. You have to think about this: radical Islam as it has unfolded itself over the past decades offers no perspective for a future. It has no aspirations for building a stable society, for economic growth and prosperity. What it actually means is living a day dream about perpetual war, genocide and sexual domination. And you don't need a degree from Havard to figure out that that's a really bad idea. I'm pretty sure that for example, not even the Muslim Brotherhood would want what Da'eesh has done to Syria to also happen in Egypt.

    So, stop being paranoid about Muslim immigration, and frankly, stop being racists.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Europe is not afraid of the secular Muslims
    There is an idiom in my language, "wet wood can burn with dry wood". At least the meaning similar like that . Maybe you just want to burn dry ones, but rage in Europe will hit also secular muslims

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the fundamentalist Muslims are enemies of both Christians and secular Muslims
    All fanatic ideas which base on religion, political view, race or gender are enemy of humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    and Europe is not defending Christianity, it is defending secularism
    with increasing and feeding local racists.

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    something that seems to be disapearing in Turkey
    Unfortunately true, Europaen people who declare don't eat kebab and act like these won't solve anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    then again, you think all Europeans that don't agree with you are nazi
    Yes, if you think all muslim are fundamentalist.

    If 1% of Muslim are fundamentalist, people remind that like every Muslim same as if 1% of European are nazi, people remind that too. This is basing nature, but we should be better then this.

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    @ piro

    you would like Europe to become islamic state,
    since you are one,

    @ Boreas
    Radical Islam is 1/3 of the islamic world,
    fetvas are above any law, either state, either international,

    @ Lebrok

    yes, cause soon we WILL HAVE ANOTHER HYPATEIA, SCYTHOPOLIS, etc etc,
    Islam will turn Europe to 4-8 were every Greek/pagan should die to praise the one and only God or
    where palimpsista, were raised to write prays to 'Lord'
    or to 14-17 century AD were all scientists were magicians, who should burn to holy fire,

    accept it,
    Christians are good people?
    yes or no, they killed Hypateia, they created Scythopolis, they destroy 85% of all ancient world, even the Olympics,

    Islamists are good people?
    yes or no they destroy Budas in India, and Palmyra temple, and Assyrian heritage,
    WAIT TO SEE WHEN THEY CONGUER EUROPE!!!!!!!


    @ to all
    Wait to see Daesh or Boco Haram etc to take slaves your daughters,
    wait to see you daughters stop school at 12-15 years old,
    wait to be shot as 'charlie' just because you said a word about something wrong,


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    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Europe is not afraid of the secular Muslims
    the fundamentalist Muslims are enemies of both Christians and secular Muslims
    But such a thing like secular muslim does not exist.

    and Europe is not defending Christianity, it is defending secularism, something that seems to be disapearing in Turkey
    And this is very sad, so Europe will be muslim - especially Belgium?

    and I admit, for Europeans it is sometimes dificult to see the diference between secular and non-secular Muslims
    Because secular muslims does not exists.

    then again, you think all Europeans that don't agree with you are nazi
    This is very common on this forum, when someone does not fit with
    sacred words, is acusing of being nazi, rasist or agent of Stormfront.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    If 1% of Muslim are fundamentalist, people remind that like every Muslim same as if 1% of European are nazi, people remind that too. This is basing nature, but we should be better then this.
    This is simply not true. Maybe secular muslims are 1%. Among this
    ones which are living on the West it is maximum 20%. The 20% of
    all muslims (300.000.000 people!) are extrimly fundamentalist, and
    this means that they can today go and blow themselves. The rest
    60-80% are supporting this 20% of extrimers.

    Secular muslim = non muslim at all. At least... he can be deceptive,
    and be claiming his secularity to missinform of sabotage unbelivers.
    There is no other option in Islam. This, what you are now claiming
    Boreas is taqqiya. Nothing less and nothing more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    wait to be shot as 'charlie' just because you said a word about something wrong,
    You do not need muslims for that.
    Political corectness is even more effective than they are.
    So it will be a little change, but not so big as it is allready.
    You do not belive? Write something here about some tabu...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    People are fleeing en-masse from an entity that is literally the wet-dream of radical Muslims (the so-called "ISIS" or "Da'eesh"), do you really think its plausible that people who flee from this would become supporter of the same ideology? In my opinion, the mere existence of Da'eesh is something that in the long-run will force islamic fundamentalists to question their own believes and in the end, become more moderate. You have to think about this: radical Islam as it has unfolded itself over the past decades offers no perspective for a future. It has no aspirations for building a stable society, for economic growth and prosperity. What it actually means is living a day dream about perpetual war, genocide and sexual domination. And you don't need a degree from Havard to figure out that that's a really bad idea. I'm pretty sure that for example, not even the Muslim Brotherhood would want what Da'eesh has done to Syria to also happen in Egypt.

    So, stop being paranoid about Muslim immigration, and frankly, stop being racists.
    you don't know the history of Islam
    Islam fundamentalism is nothing new, it is almost as old as Islam itself
    how long does hatred between shia and sunni exist? almost as long as Islam itself
    there have always been fundamentalist fractions inside Islam, for over 1200 years now
    if your reasoning above would be correct, Islam wouldn't exist anymore today
    the truth is Islam is unable to coop with their own funadmentalists
    Muslims are embarrased about this, they prefer to forget and not to talk about this
    they don't want us to talk about it either

    and you are going to tell me Christians were the same
    well, Europe is a secular state now and 99 % of Christians accept it
    not so for Muslims, especialy for those coming into Europe now

    and sorry for telling you this, I must be a terrible racist because I don't agree with you

    and yes, most of the immigrants don't form a threat, it is a minority
    furthermore most of the immigrants are no fugitives either, they are adventurers who are told they'll get an easy life in Europe
    well, Europe is unable to host all those adventurers from all over the world whatever Merkel may have said
    I wonder what is going to happen at the European borders now it appears this flow isn't going to stop

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Europe is a secular state now
    Bicicleur,
    Europe is not secular. This is only an euphemism for some unnamed "secular" religion.
    Europe is prosocialistic, proatheistic, prohomosexual, proevolutionistic, antychristian,
    and is leading by maoistic belivers of zero-growth, partialy associated with extremly
    communist paramasonic group named Grand Orient de France...

    Of course, some people belive in that empty phrase... secular... but it is curve ball...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    you don't know the history of Islam
    Islam fundamentalism is nothing new, it is almost as old as Islam itself
    how long does hatred between shia and sunni exist? almost as long as Islam itself
    there have always been fundamentalist fractions inside Islam, for over 1200 years now
    if your reasoning above would be correct, Islam wouldn't exist anymore today
    the truth is Islam is unable to coop with their own funadmentalists
    Muslims are embarrased about this, they prefer to forget and not to talk about this
    they don't want us to talk about it either
    Actually, my reason is exactly correct, and there's two good examples from history there that prove my point, namely where major Islamic polities ceased to exist because they engaged in orgies of intolerance and extremism. The first is Al-Andalus (Muslim Iberia) under the Almohads, who were much more intolerant of religious minorities (especially Jews) than their forebearers, and who vastly hastened the demise of Muslim Iberia during their rule. Its probable that Al-Andalus would have lasted longer - perhaps even to the present day consider that the last sultan of Granada was unseated in the same year as Columbus discovered the New World) - without this episode. The second example is the Mughal Empire under Aurangzeb, who ruined the Mughal Empire through his widespread progromes and military campaigns against Hindus - the end effect was that he left the entire subcontinent in a destitute condition to be taken over by the English.

    As for the Sunni-Shia divide, I will agree with you in so far as that in the talk of right-wing nutjobs in the West, this is a concept that doesn't show up. Instead, the Islamic world is prefered to be viewed as a monolithic, homogenous blob on the map, so that you can justify to perceive it as a "threat" to Western civilization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    in Europe some are afraid ISIS will now start attacking civilians worldwide
    it is an argument to keep restraint and not to confront ISIS head on
    Europeans are chickens, I wonder whether they are able to do what it takes
    we prefer to wait for the US and the Russians to act and after that we critisize them
    we tend to give credit to organisations like the Syrian Observatory of Human Rights who spread news info that can't be checked
    Europeans are tired of wars. Only in ww2 were killed an estimated

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Secular muslim = non muslim at all. At least... he can be deceptive,
    and be claiming his secularity to missinform of sabotage unbelivers.
    There is no other option in Islam.
    It seems you became a high level işn Islamic doctrine and can decide who is muslim and who is not,

    Thanks to share your own ideas, but let's turn back reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    It seems you became a high level işn Islamic doctrine and can decide who is muslim and who is not,

    Thanks to share your own ideas, but let's turn back reality.
    I do not decide, neither you, but Mohammed and at least islamic scholars...
    You can of course claim that you are a muslim and secular. I saw even a
    homosexual activist who was claiming that he is a muslim... But it is not
    a matter of personal choice... but of following the rules.

    If I create today society of Q-men, and I make a rule, that Q-men can be only
    lefthanded and wearing red shirts, and everyone, who is righthanded and wearing
    shirts in different colour is not a Qman - then who will decide, who can be a Qman???
    Someone who want to wear blue shirt? No. I will decide, because I am the one making
    the rules deciding who can be a Q-man and who can be not.

    So this is not a matter of personal describing who can be a muslim, but matter of rules.

    Btw, if there will be such a thing like secular normal muslim, then on the West were
    be no need for muslims gettos, for banning the burka, there will be not problem with
    burning cars and blowing buses, and people woudnt be wearing themselves as Arabs.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, my reason is exactly correct, and there's two good examples from history there that prove my point, namely where major Islamic polities ceased to exist because they engaged in orgies of intolerance and extremism. The first is Al-Andalus (Muslim Iberia) under the Almohads, who were much more intolerant of religious minorities (especially Jews) than their forebearers, and who vastly hastened the demise of Muslim Iberia during their rule. Its probable that Al-Andalus would have lasted longer - perhaps even to the present day consider that the last sultan of Granada was unseated in the same year as Columbus discovered the New World) - without this episode. The second example is the Mughal Empire under Aurangzeb, who ruined the Mughal Empire through his widespread progromes and military campaigns against Hindus - the end effect was that he left the entire subcontinent in a destitute condition to be taken over by the English.

    As for the Sunni-Shia divide, I will agree with you in so far as that in the talk of right-wing nutjobs in the West, this is a concept that doesn't show up. Instead, the Islamic world is prefered to be viewed as a monolithic, homogenous blob on the map, so that you can justify to perceive it as a "threat" to Western civilization.
    you know the history, probably even better than me
    but you give the answer yourself, correct me if i'm wrong
    indeed the example we always get of tolerant and openminded Muslims in history were the Morish Omayades in Spain, but they forget that they were replaced by the very strict Almohads
    weren't the Almohads themselves replaced by the rather fundamentalistic Christian reconquistadores?
    and you state yourself that the - contrary to his predecessors - very strict Aurangzeb left the country in chaos till the British came
    i don't want to relive this all again in Europe
    the fact that ISIS is able to recruit so easily so many of its warriors in Europe by some preachers with a radical vocabulary of hatred doesn't make me optimistic at all
    and the fact that many of them are 'converts' and adventurers doesn't make it better, it's the vocabulary that does it

    and yes, most non-Muslims don't know about the century-long history of divide and hatred between Sunni and Shia
    but as I told, Muslims are embarrased by this and don't talk about it, neither do they want us to talk about it
    it seems to me they themselves cannot explain this if Islam is realy 'the religion of love and peace'

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Bicicleur,
    Europe is not secular. This is only an euphemism for some unnamed "secular" religion.
    Europe is prosocialistic, proatheistic, prohomosexual, proevolutionistic, antychristian,
    and is leading by maoistic belivers of zero-growth, partialy associated with extremly
    communist paramasonic group named Grand Orient de France...

    Of course, some people belive in that empty phrase... secular... but it is curve ball...
    political correctness is the new religion
    it's a selfdestructive religion
    it won't last, but in the mean time it will have made a lot of damage

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Islam is realy 'the religion of love and peace'
    I think Bicicleur, that this is generaly a false assumption at all.

    Islam is at first a religion of Mohammed who claimed to have the true message.
    And what it menas love and peace must be filter by his definitions of this words and of goal of Islam.

    Love and peace is only for Muslims. Shias are not muslims for sunnis, and sunnis are not muslims for shias.
    They are even worse than jews and christians, because they are apostates. That's all.

    Islam is from the beginnig going to take the world. But by the world they mostly mean Christendom.
    And from the beginning they are doing this by the sword. So, why should they be a religion of peace?
    And btw, why at all religion MUST be a religion of peace? Why religion cannot be a religion of war? If
    someone expected that, then he will be certainly decived by muslims, who have in their theology so
    called taqiyya which allow any muslim to decive unbelivers for spreding Islam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    It seems you became a high level işn Islamic doctrine and can decide who is muslim and who is not,

    Thanks to share your own ideas, but let's turn back reality.

    Boreas you are from Turkey,

    A country that started as Shia with Seljouks, become Suni, populated by taqqiya, expelled Bektasi muslims,
    and finally today is trebling among Kemalic state, and Sultan-Erdogan state,

    I guess you know the difference among Con/polis muslims, to far East/South Turkey radical Islam,

    just answer your shelf,
    for you, you are maybe a true muslim,
    for radical Islamists like Daesh, are you a true Muslim?
    and can you live, study, work with a Kufar/.Cafir?

    just answer your shelf,
    when your imams, say women must not drive,
    how will you react?
    will you allow your wife to drive?
    and if you would, how will you feel, if someone throw a stone to her, cause she drives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    But such a thing like secular muslim does not exist.


    Because secular muslims does not exists.
    Your above statement contradicts yours below:

    This is simply not true. Maybe secular muslims are 1%. Among this
    ones which are living on the West it is maximum 20%. The 20% of
    That's why we can't have intellectual conversation with illogical person.






    This is very common on this forum, when someone does not fit with
    sacred words, is acusing of being nazi, rasist or agent of Stormfront.
    There is no tolerance for intolerant people on Eupedia. I'm predicting it is only a matter of time till your next ban.

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