Teal people found: Caucasians!

Not really J*, but some subclades of J2a.

I think that the very first proto-proto-Indo-European language was born on the Iranian Plateau when J2a (+G2a) folks mixed with R1b/R1a/R2a folks. = Caucasus (J2a & G2a) + Gedrosia (R1a/R1b/R2a)

Makes sense to me.
 
Nobody should be surprised that I'm particularly interested in this study finding Paleolithic Y-DNA I2 in Switzerland.
 
The Caucasus hunter-gatherer genome showed a continued mixture with the ancestors of the early farmers in the Levant area, which Manica says makes sense given the relative proximity. This ends, however, around 25,000 years ago - just before the time of the last glacial maximum, or peak Ice Age.


But going by this article it seems like there was a fourth H&G group related to WHG. This sounds like something very WHG like.

From the article it seems something Teal like mixed with something WHG/EHG like H&G who were native to the Caucasus.

"India is a complete mix of Asian and European genetic components. The Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry is the best match we've found for the European genetic component found right across modern Indian populations," Jones said. Researchers say this strand of ancestry may have flowed into the region with the bringers of Indo-Aryan languages.

So these people must have been what we call Teal + something WHG like already if the Indo European signature in India resembles this mostly.
 
Y-DNA haplogroups of "Teal People", were J and J2:

Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer (formerly: "Teal People"), 2 samples - J, J2
Eastern Hunter-Gatherer (Karelia and Samara), 3 samples - R1b, R1a, J

It seems, that both CHG and EHG shared haplogroup J.



We don't know this, no R1b was found so far among "Teal people" - only J and J2.

Which confirms Bicicleur's theory, that initially, in Paleolithic times, IJ split into I and J around the Caucasus, and then I migrated to Europe (becoming the main haplogroup of WHG) and J stayed in the Caucasus region, where CHG people emerged.
Two samples are still far too low to be able to say something.


Don't you find it mysterious that there is J in EHG, there is J in those Caucasus "teal like" groups, but no J in Yamna? So J reached the EHG without any Teal admixture but skipped Yamna while Yamna is like 50-60% Teal?

I would be suprised if we wouldn't find A: R1b in Caucasus in further samples or B: J in Yamna samples.


And yes Bicicleur was right with his theory of the Caucasus root but also I preached milion times that people are being wrong in calling J an EEF exclusiv Haplogroup simply out of the logic that it's closest cousins I and K are WHG and ANE. J and I might be the WHG like ancestry in EEF actually. And Basal Eurasian might be connected to yDNA G and H
 
I haven't read the full paper yet, but at first sight the authors' interpretation seems rather hasty.

First of all, if the teal component found in Yamna and Indo-Europeans is of Paleolithic Caucasian origin, then does that mean that the teal component should be split in two categories (Caucasian/Steppe vs Gedrosian/West Asian) ? Or is it the same Caucasian people who expanded south and spread the teal component around the Middle East, presumably with the expansion of J1 and J2a during the Kura-Araxes period ?

The two samples tested were:

- Satsurblia (13,300 years old) : Y-DNA J and mtDNA K3
- Kotias (9,700 years old) : Y-DNA J2a and mtDNA H13c

Both samples are almost completely teal-coloured in admixtures, except one which has about 10% of Near Eastern/Early Farmer admixture.

What surprises me is that neither the Y-DNA nor the mtDNA lineages show an association with Yamna or any Indo-European culture. MtDNA K3 is found almost exclusively in Georgia nowadays, which means it wasn't part of the maternal lineages that mixed with Proto-Indo-Europeans. Likewise H13c is essentially found in the Caucasus and Middle East. Although H13a was found among Yamna and Bell Beakers, all H13 subclades are relatively rare in Europe today, except in Sardinia (8%), which is the only part of Europe with virtually no Steppe ancestry. When we see that the paternal lines belong to J* and J2a, two lineages also more common in the Middle East than Europe, it makes me wonder whether Mesolithic Caucasian really are ancestral to Yamna and other IE people.

It's not because Paleolithic and Mesolithic Caucasians had the teal admixture that it necessarily is the source of the Yamna teal. No Paleolithic or Mesolithic genomes from Armenia, Iran or Kurdistan have been tested to date, and there is a good chance that these would have carried the same teal admixture. We can't draw any definitive conclusion from only two Caucasian samples without knowing what the genomes of people further south looked like during the same period.

It would make more sense if the teal component was brought to the Steppe from eastern Anatolia or Armenia during the Neolithic. In terms of mtDNA, there is overwhelming evidence of a direct migration from that region to the Steppe, with the presence of mt-haplogroups H5, H8c, H15 or J1b1a, among others. None of these are Caucasian in origin, but rather from the northern Fertile Crescent. I still stand by my theory that R1b settled in that region during the Late Paleolithic, domesticated cattle, mixed with local women (H5, H8c, H15, J1b1a) who gave them the teal admixture, then moved across the Caucasus in search for pastureland for their cattle.

Good point and I am still saying the region between the Zagros and Elborz mountains is the missing link.
 
we need DNA from Maykop
Maykop postdated the split of Anatolian from PIE , so Maykop can't have been IE in origin
Is Maykop J2a? Is Maykop teal?

IMO, the main J2a culture in the Caucasus was Kura-Araxes, which spread southward, while Maykop while probably a mix of G2a and R1b and might be the source of R1b-L51 that migrated along the northern Black Sea shore to Europe. That was my original theory about the spread of IE R1b. My first clue was that the oldest (bronze) sword ever found was in Maykop and resembled uncannily ancient Celtic and Germanic swords, as if it was their ancestral model. We now know that Yamna people belonged to R1b, but to the eastern Z2123 branch that is more associated with IE branches like Greek, Armenian or Tocharian. That doesn't leave a lot of possibilities for the origin of R1b-L51. If it isn't Maykop, then its Kemi-Oba or possibly some lost cultures lost under the shallow waters of the northern Black Sea and Sea of Azov.
 
Where do you think was the boundary between "CHG / Teal" autosomal and "AEF" autosomal ???:

I agree that we need to check aDNA from Eastern Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Armenia and Western Iran:

But if "Teal people" migrated across the Caucasus, then "Teal" in Yamnaya almost certainly comes at least partially from CHG. Unless you want to argue that "Teal" ancestral to Yamnaya migrated to the east of the Caspian Sea, not through CHG territory:

http://s17.postimg.org/lao1aiqkf/AEF_CHG.png

AEF_CHG.png
 
IMO, the main J2a culture in the Caucasus was Kura-Araxes, which spread southward, while Maykop while probably a mix of G2a and R1b and might be the source of R1b-L51 that migrated along the northern Black Sea shore to Europe. That was my original theory about the spread of IE R1b. My first clue was that the oldest (bronze) sword ever found was in Maykop and resembled uncannily ancient Celtic and Germanic swords, as if it was their ancestral model. We now know that Yamna people belonged to R1b, but to the eastern Z2123 branch that is more associated with IE branches like Greek, Armenian or Tocharian. That doesn't leave a lot of possibilities for the origin of R1b-L51. If it isn't Maykop, then its Kemi-Oba or possibly some lost cultures lost under the shallow waters of the northern Black Sea and Sea of Azov.

Another very plausible theory.
 
Also we must remember that already Khvalynsk people 7200-6000 years ago had a lot of "Teal" component.

These ones:

Khvalynsk Eneolithic in the Volga steppes: Saratovo, Russia (n=3)

Three individuals described here were among 39 excavated in 1987-88 at the Eneolithic cemetery of Khvalynsk II, Saratov oblast, Russia, on the west bank of the Volga River, 6 km north of the village of Alekseevka. Khvalynsk I and II are two parts of the same cemetery, excavated in 1977-79 (Khvalynsk I) and 1987-88 (Khvalynsk II).23 The two excavations revealed 197 graves, about 10x larger than other cemeteries of this period in the Volga-Ural steppes, dated by radiocarbon to 5200-4000 BCE (95.4% confidence). (...)
 
ENF=Farmer. Is dead.

I'm not surprised by the results. It didn't make sense to me Basal Eurasians expanded only with farming. I knew Hunter gatherers of West Asia also had Basal Eurasian. West Asian genetic origins are a lot more complicated than early farmers repopulating the region.

Modern Caucasus look like they might be 50%+ from Upper Paleolithic Caucasus people. The Kurds here are probably happy with the results, they have ancestry from their region from before the Sumerians, way back in very primitive times.

The first farmers of Europe certainly had a lot of Near Eastern hunter gatherer ancestry, which clearly was closely related to hunter gatherers in Europe.

These CHG genomes fit better as Yamnaya's non-EHG ancestors than any moderns. They score almost 100% in "Teal" of the paper's ADMIXTURE. It really looks like they were the Teal people.

-------------------------------------------

I've added Hirisplex results of the CHG genomes and new Late Upper Palaeilthic WHG genome to Pre-Historic West Eurasian Phenotype.

The oldest Caucasus genome(13,300yo) and Swiss genome(13,700yo) had rs12913832 AG, confirming blue eyes are over 13,000 years old. The Swiss genome is our first Brown eyed WHG person.

Both Caucasus genomes and new WHG had CC in rs16891982. The oldest example of derived alleles in that SNP are from Sweden and Anatolia dating to 6000 BC. The new WHG had GG in rs1426654 but both Caucasus guys had AA in rs1426654. Both were Caucasus guys were confirmed to have the C11 haplotype found in 97% of AA rs1426654 today. So, far all pre-Neolithic West Eurasians are mostly derived in rs1426654, except WHG.

With these new data it appears: There was eye-color variation in both West Asia and Europe over 13,000 years ago. Blue eyes probably originated before the LGM. Caucasus had the same pigmentation-related alleles as modern West Asians. Mutations associated with Light skin existed over 13,000 years ago in at least the Caucasus(but certainly elsewhere).

------------------------------

This paper tells a lot about origins of South Asians. I'm going to post about it later. Many methods show CHG is the best proxy for non-Eastern ancestors of South Asians. They're basically the Teal, ASI, Wet Asian, signal we've seen for years. They contributed ancestry to all West Eurasians and South Asians, and probably others.
 
How many times does it have to be said??? All humans were hunter-gatherers before they became farmers.

As to the relationship between some of these hunter-gatherers:

"Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) belong to a distinct ancient clade that split from western hunter-gatherers ~45 kya, shortly after the expansion of anatomically modern humans into Europe and from the ancestors of Neolithic farmers ~25 kya, around the Last Glacial Maximum."

If I'm reading the paper and the supplement correctly, both CHG and ENFs in Anatolia had Basal Eurasian? So did Kostenki? So the admixture between non Basal Eurasian hunter gatherers and Basal Eurasian hunter gatherers had to take place before 25kya.
 
I've read through whole paper, except ADMIXTURE part it's too small to read. This is the information I've got....

Genetic continuation from Late Upper Palaeolithic-Mesolithic.
>Continuation in Georgia between 13,000-10,000yo. Continuation in Central Europe between 13,000-8,000yo.

South Asians, Yamnaya, and South Caucasus fit best as CHG+something else.
>South Asians fit best as CHG+South Indian. Yamnaya fits best as CHG+EHG. South Caucasus fits best as CHG+EF.
>D(Yoruba, X; Onge, Indian population) results say of all moderns and ancients, Indians are closest to CHG. Also, they're much closer to CHG than to Onge.

Europeans(not just north) have CHG ancestry via Steppe
>Besides Caucasus, CHG shares most drift with (all)Europeans. After that CHG shares most drift with South Asians.
>D-states and Drift(F3-stats) show European-relation to CHG follows the same pattern as Steppe ancestry. High CHG-drift first appears in Europe in Late Neolithic(we've heard the story a million times).

SouthWest Asians have CHG ancestry?
>In Supp 9. they tested f3(Target; Source1, Source2), to see what modern Eurasians fit best as an admixture of.
>SW Asians fit best as EF+African. Although Cypriots fit best as CHG+EEF. I tend to think African is hiding CHG ancestry in SW Asians, but maybe not.

CHG has complicated relationship to other Ancients(xSteppe, Steppe admixed).
>MA1 is Mr. ANE, but he very slightly closer to CHG than to EF.
>CHG is equally related to ANE and WHG(according to D-stats).
>CHG is slightly closer to EHG than to WHG.
>Of all ancients(xSteppe, Steppe admixed) CHG is closest to EF.

EF and WHG have lots of shared ancestry
>WHG, including the new 13,700 one, are much closer to EF than to CHG. Much more significantly than CHG is closer to EF than to WHG.
 
ENF=Farmer. Is dead.

I'm not surprised by the results. It didn't make sense to me Basal Eurasians expanded only with farming. I knew Hunter gatherers of West Asia also had Basal Eurasian. West Asian genetic origins are a lot more complicated than early farmers repopulating the region.

Modern Caucasus look like they might be 50%+ from Upper Paleolithic Caucasus people. The Kurds here are probably happy with the results, they have ancestry from their region from before the Sumerians, way back in very primitive times.

The first farmers of Europe certainly had a lot of Near Eastern hunter gatherer ancestry, which clearly was closely related to hunter gatherers in Europe.

These CHG genomes fit better as Yamnaya's non-EHG ancestors than any moderns. They score almost 100% in "Teal" of the paper's ADMIXTURE. It really looks like they were the Teal people.

-------------------------------------------

I've added Hirisplex results of the CHG genomes and new Late Upper Palaeilthic WHG genome to Pre-Historic West Eurasian Phenotype.

The oldest Caucasus genome(13,300yo) and Swiss genome(13,700yo) had rs12913832 AG, confirming blue eyes are over 13,000 years old. The Swiss genome is our first Brown eyed WHG person.

Both Caucasus genomes and new WHG had CC in rs16891982. The oldest example of derived alleles in that SNP are from Sweden and Anatolia dating to 6000 BC. The new WHG had GG in rs1426654 but both Caucasus guys had AA in rs1426654. Both were Caucasus guys were confirmed to have the C11 haplotype found in 97% of AA rs1426654 today. So, far all pre-Neolithic West Eurasians are mostly derived in rs1426654, except WHG.

With these new data it appears: There was eye-color variation in both West Asia and Europe over 13,000 years ago. Blue eyes probably originated before the LGM. Caucasus had the same pigmentation-related alleles as modern West Asians. Mutations associated with Light skin existed over 13,000 years ago in at least the Caucasus(but certainly elsewhere).

------------------------------

This paper tells a lot about origins of South Asians. I'm going to post about it later. Many methods show CHG is the best proxy for non-Eastern ancestors of South Asians. They're basically the Teal, ASI, Wet Asian, signal we've seen for years. They contributed ancestry to all West Eurasians and South Asians, and probably others.

I might have misunderstood the paper, but doesn't it actually say, that in the Caucasus there was a WHG/EHG/ANE related Hunters and Gatherers group since 25.000 bc which mixed with incoming farmers and created what we call "Teal farmers" ? If so than most of the Basal Eurasian is EEF derived, came via the EEF. That doesn't disprove the existence of an Basal Eurasian like population which probably existed 20000 BC before it mixed with a WHG like group to create EEF and merged with a Caucasus H&G group which resembles WHG/ANE.

But take in mind the paper speaks about a paleolithic Caucasus H&G group which merged with incoming EEF groups. So this Caucasus H&G is important to understand the origin of paleolithic movements but doesn't play much of a role for Neolithic once.

For Neolithic movements, EEF, Teal, EHG and WHG are much more important becaus the Caucasus H&G population didn't existed anymore in it's pure form.
 
According to MfA, even EHG - including Karelian EHG - already scored a bit of Teal (ANE is not included in this analysis, though):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5833-Teal-discovered-!!&p=120898&viewfull=1#post120898

I mentioned that a milion times that EHG groups showed some Caucaso_Gedrosia like ancestry but everyone ignored it and claimed it is a remnant of EHG ancestry in Teal People. I said it is the remnant of a third population which merged into Teal farmers as well EHG groups and is most likely the source for the R Haplogroups in both.
 
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How many times does it have to be said??? All humans were hunter-gatherers before they became farmers.

As to the relationship between some of these hunter-gatherers:

"Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) belong to a distinct ancient clade that split from western hunter-gatherers ~45 kya, shortly after the expansion of anatomically modern humans into Europe and from the ancestors of Neolithic farmers ~25 kya, around the Last Glacial Maximum."

If I'm reading the paper and the supplement correctly, both CHG and ENFs in Anatolia had Basal Eurasian? So did Kostenki? So the admixture between non Basal Eurasian hunter gatherers and Basal Eurasian hunter gatherers had to take place before 25kya.

Kostenki was yDNA NO, I think the Basal Eurasian showing up in Kostenki is simply shared archaic ancestry. Kostenki even showed some SSA signals. It is simple, the more ancient the samples the closer to the root and therefore the more noisy "weird admixture" will show up which is simply shared ancestry with other distant related groups, in the case of Kostenki it is Basal Eurasians imo.
 
Alan said:
I might have misunderstood the paper, but doesn't it actually say, that in the Caucasus there was a WHG/EHG/ANE related Hunters and Gatherers group since 25.000 bc which mixed with incoming farmers and created what we call "Teal farmers"

The paper says that mixing of Caucasus HGs with some Near Easterners (ancestors of ENF ?) ended 25,000 years ago. They mixed with ancestors of ENF long before those people became farmers (25,000 years ago there was no farming anywhere in the world). Since 25,000 years ago they were isolated from outside admixtures for the next 15,000 years, until 10,000 years ago (8,000 BC).

Alan said:
the paper speaks about a paleolithic Caucasus H&G group which merged with incoming EEF groups.

I haven't read all of it yet, but AFAIK it doesn't say anything about Caucasus HGs merging with incoming ENF groups.

It says that they mixed with some "Pre-ENF" groups more than 25,000 years ago - i.e. before those groups became ENF.

How can we call someone who lived 25,000 years ago "Early Neolithic Farmers"? No farmers existed back then.
 
Taking a look at this graph

ncomms9912-f1.jpg


Well we have reached a point where Eastern/Teal farmer DNA exceeds EHG admixture even slightly in Yamna by ~5%, that expecting this admixture came via "female lineages" would actually need us to assume that there was a female replacement above 100% what is basically out of logic. Looking how we find J in EHG samples, I think we haven't found out everything yet. It simply can't be that male Teal farmer Haplogroups skipped Yamna, but appear in EHG groups who are supposed (by some people) to be the paternal parents of Yamna. Allot of things don't fit here. And as Maciamo I think with further Samples, at best from further Southeast, we will find some R lineages.

That said these samples are from West Caucasus, I still think North Caucasus samples will show some additional EHG admixture to their pred. Teal ancestry.
 
Kostenki had Y DNA C1.

Sure? And who was the NO individual?

But even better anyways, since C1 is even more archaic no wonder we find Basal Eurasian like admixture in him
 

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