Teal people found: Caucasians!

Tomenable said:


The paper says that mixing of Caucasus HGs with some Near Easterners (ancestors of ENF ?) ended 25,000 years ago. They mixed with ancestors of ENF long before those people became farmers (25,000 years ago there was no farming anywhere in the world). Since 25,000 years ago they were isolated from outside admixtures for the next 15,000 years, until 10,000 years ago (8,000 BC).



I haven't read all of it yet, but AFAIK it doesn't say anything about Caucasus HGs merging with incoming ENF groups.

It says that they mixed with some "Pre-ENF" groups more than 25,000 years ago - i.e. before those groups became ENF.

How can we call someone who lived 25,000 years ago "Early Neolithic Farmers"? No farmers existed back then.
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Ah ok I missed that part, so it is the same source as EEF . The only difference as I said in my early posts seems to be a simple ANE "admixture" (Now it looks like it isn't really admixture but ANE like drift) from a Caucasus (I still believe this Caucasus H&G are actually arrivals from the Iranian Plateau) H&G.
 
Alan said:
Well we have reached a point where Eastern/Teal farmer DNA exceeds EHG admixture in Yamna by 5-10% that expecting this admixture came via "female lineages" would actually need us to assume that there was a female replacement above 100% what is basically nonsense.
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Bronze age Steppe Y DNA is marked by patriarch lineages that represent ~100% of the male lineages. ~100% Eastern Yamnaya have R1b-Z2103, ~100% proto-Indo Iranians have R1a-Z94, ~100% Corded ware has R1a-M417, ~100% Eastern Bell Beaker has R1b-P312.

So, when EHG and CHG first mixed many hg J CHG males could have mixed with EHG females. However, in the end a few lucky EHG-male lines became the patriarch lineages. So ancestry from CHG males remained but their Y DNA was erased, along with the Y DNA of 99% of EHG males.

This is important to understand. Every R1a/b EHG represents dead-lineages, 99% of their Y DNA was also replaced.

Alan said:
Looking how we find J in EHG samples, I think we haven't found out everything yet. It simply can't be that male Teal farmer Haplogroups skipped Yamna, but appear in EHG groups who are supposed (by some people) to be the paternal parents of Yamna. Allot of things don't fit here. And as Maciamo I think with further Samples, at best from further Southeast, we will find some R lineages.
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EHG didn't show signs of Basal Eurasian. These CHG guys had Basal Eurasian. Karelia_HG could have had West Asian ancestry but it must have been very small.
 
I just noticed EHG scores a little of CHG stuff, they could have CHG in them. CHG is closer to EHG than to WHG.
 
So, when EHG and CHG first mixed many hg J CHG males could have mixed with EHG females. However, in the end a few lucky EHG-male lines became the patriarch lineages. So ancestry from CHG males remained but their Y DNA was erased, along with the Y DNA of 99% of EHG males.

This is important to understand. Every R1a/b EHG represents dead-lineages, 99% of their Y DNA was also replaced.
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Finally a conclusion that does make sense. It could very well happened that way, that R1b male lineages were simply "lucky" to bottleneck. But than this would still assume a close to 100% female contribution from Teal/CHG and 100% male contribution of EHG, cause Teal in Yamna is 5 times more than in EHG (which was brought to them probably by some Teal male/female admixture).

I think this scenario is possible but does not really convince me, because it still needs many random/unlikely events to have happened at once. Simply to many for my taste.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
Bronze age Steppe Y DNA is marked by patriarch lineages that represent ~100% of the male lineages. ~100% Eastern Yamnaya have R1b-Z2103, ~100% proto-Indo Iranians have R1a-Z94, ~100% Corded ware has R1a-M417, ~100% Eastern Bell Beaker has R1b-P312.

So, when EHG and CHG first mixed many hg J CHG males could have mixed with EHG females. However, in the end a few lucky EHG-male lines became the patriarch lineages. So ancestry from CHG males remained but their Y DNA was erased, along with the Y DNA of 99% of EHG males.

This is important to understand. Every R1a/b EHG represents dead-lineages, 99% of their Y DNA was also replaced.



EHG didn't show signs of Basal Eurasian. These CHG guys had Basal Eurasian. Karelia_HG could have had West Asian ancestry but it must have been very small.
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EHG does show some Teal like admixture that must have reached them at some point, just like the yDNA J which is obviously for now connected to CHG/Teal like people.
 
Some more interesting facts, CHG seems to be more shifted towards East than most modern Caucasians who have an EEF shift , in fact it seems to fit into the Eastern West Asian populations, basically on the Iranian Plateau samples. As I said in my other posts the Caucasus and Iranian Plateau farmers would be Teal like while Anatolian and Levantine farmers EEF like. I suspect that North Caucasus samples from around the Neolithic will turn out as Teal/CHG with some EHG like admixture.

This strenghtens my believe even more that those "CHG" groups are actually arrivals from the Iranian Plateau.
 
The ADMIXTURE results are impossible to read in Supp info. But the paper gives a good description of the results in Supp. Note 9. In Summary what they say is...

A Middle Eastern component appears in K=9. From K=9-K=15 CHG is a mixture of it and a South Asian centered component. The South Asian component first appears in late Neolithic Europeans, and today most Europeans and West Asians have membership in it. The rest of West Eurasians score in SHG/EHG/WHG centered component and Middle Eastern component.

In K=15 the older CHG scores 100% in a new Caucasus-centered component but the younger one scores just under 10% in a Middle Eastern component. Caucasus today score almost 50% in Middle Eastern component and over 50% in CHG. From K=15-K=20 nothing really changes.
South Asians are a mixture of CHG component and another South Asian component.
>Europeans are mostly a mixture of SHG/WHG/EHG+CHG+MIddle Eastern. West Asians are mostly a mixture of CHG+Middle Eastern.
>By K=18 it looks like Middle Easterns splits into typical Mediterranean and SW Asian.
 
ADMIXTURE results for Satsurblia, 13,300 years old from Georgia. Posted orignally by Tag Heuer. It's crazy to see someone from so long ago score similar to present day Caucasus pops, and score so high in ENF, which since 2013 most though was only from the Neolithic.

ANE K7
23.62% ANE
0.52% ASE
9.65% WHG-UHG
0.00% East_Eurasian
3.12% West_African
0.70% East_African
62.40% ENF

Eurogenes K36
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Arabian
17.43% Armenian
0.00% Basque
0.00% Central_African
0.00% Central_Euro
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% East_Balkan
0.00% East_Central_Asian
0.00% East_Central_Euro
0.01% East_Med
0.00% Eastern_Euro
0.00% Fennoscandian
0.00% French
0.00% Iberian
0.00% Indo-Chinese
0.00% Italian
0.00% Malayan
0.00% Near_Eastern
0.00% North_African
0.00% North_Atlantic
46.99% North_Caucasian
0.00% North_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African
0.00% Oceanian
0.00% Omotic
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% South_Central_Asian
0.00% South_Chinese
0.00% Volga-Ural
4.00% West_African
31.57% West_Caucasian
0.00% West_Med
 
Fire Haired14 said:
ADMIXTURE results for Satsurblia, 13,300 years old from Georgia. Posted orignally by Tag Heuer. It's crazy to see someone from so long ago score similar to present day Caucasus pops, and score so high in ENF, which since 2013 most though was only from the Neolithic.

ANE K7
23.62% ANE
0.52% ASE
9.65% WHG-UHG
0.00% East_Eurasian
3.12% West_African
0.70% East_African
62.40% ENF

Eurogenes K36
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Arabian
17.43% Armenian
0.00% Basque
0.00% Central_African
0.00% Central_Euro
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% East_Balkan
0.00% East_Central_Asian
0.00% East_Central_Euro
0.01% East_Med
0.00% Eastern_Euro
0.00% Fennoscandian
0.00% French
0.00% Iberian
0.00% Indo-Chinese
0.00% Italian
0.00% Malayan
0.00% Near_Eastern
0.00% North_African
0.00% North_Atlantic
46.99% North_Caucasian
0.00% North_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African
0.00% Oceanian
0.00% Omotic
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% South_Central_Asian
0.00% South_Chinese
0.00% Volga-Ural
4.00% West_African
31.57% West_Caucasian
0.00% West_Med
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Could you also use the puntDNAL K11 calculator. This calculator here is old and with our current knowledge about genetics not very usefull. Would love to see the puntDNAL K11, Dodecad Globe 13 and K12b results.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
The ADMIXTURE results are impossible to read in Supp info. But the paper gives a good description of the results in Supp. Note 9. In Summary what they say is...

A Middle Eastern component appears in K=9. From K=9-K=15 CHG is a mixture of it and a South Asian centered component. The South Asian component first appears in late Neolithic Europeans, and today most Europeans and West Asians have membership in it. The rest of West Eurasians score in SHG/EHG/WHG centered component and Middle Eastern component.

In K=15 the older CHG scores 100% in a new Caucasus-centered component but the younger one scores just under 10% in a Middle Eastern component. Caucasus today score almost 50% in Middle Eastern component and over 50% in CHG. From K=15-K=20 nothing really changes.
South Asians are a mixture of CHG component and another South Asian component.
>Europeans are mostly a mixture of SHG/WHG/EHG+CHG+MIddle Eastern. West Asians are mostly a mixture of CHG+Middle Eastern.
>By K=18 it looks like Middle Easterns splits into typical Mediterranean and SW Asian.
Click to expand...

I would refrain from using "middle Eastern component" for the non CHG/Teal like ancestry in modern West Asians. You wouldn't call a component in that does not fit WHG as "European".

What you probably mean with "Middle Eastern component" THAT IS Anatolian farmer + something Southern-Arabian farmers like.

I can only repeat what I said month ago.

Imo we are dealing here with three farmer/West Asian groups by Neolithic time.

1. Anatolian/Western farmers
2. Iranian Plateau/Caucasus aka Eastern farmers
3. Southern farmers

The North Caucasus however I assume would be CHG plus some EHG admixture.
 
Supplementary notes below for this report

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/extref/ncomms9912-s1.pdf

Supplementary #8 is the ydna and mtdna


IMO, since I in swiss and J is in the Causasus from this report, IJ are already split from each other , then K1 ( LT ) and G are also "free" as where and when they split on the link below...as per karafet the split is 22000 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragroup
It would seem to me that I and J seem to be the first wave
G, L, T the second wave and
R1 the third wave into central-Europe

G was already in the Caucasus ( as per the paper ) but was not found .

IMO, the Kurds seems the oldest group in the vicinity

In regards to the paper supported by russians that the Caucasus was a wall and could not be crossed, was a fantasy dream as I stated, the west caspian avenue was the path with Lezkins and dagestans showing the many haplogroups they still have.



Bichon belongs to Y haplogroup I2a (see methods). Haplogroup I has been found at high

frequencies in Europe but is virtually absent elsewhere 52

. This haplogroup is suggested to have a European pre- LGM origin53

and has been found in ancient samples with hunter-gatherer backgrounds from central and northern Europe

1,2,7,8
.
 
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Someone wrote this

I and J findings from this paper was early, pre any R1 by a looonnng time.............actually only G , L, T where around ...............R1 was still under the K2 band
Karafet estimates the IJ split at 22000 ............surely for I to get to Switzerland was not in any great speed from outside of Europe ...or....was IJ still in union in Europe!
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Indeed IJ is quite older than R and brother to the parental K. If the samples are indeed from upper paleolithic, than the yDNA of those guys at this time might not play a role for Yamna yet cause by that time R lineages would still be around IranianPlateau and South_Central Asia.

No wonder we didn't found any R lineages. The timeline is simply too early.
 
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Alan said:
Sure? And who was the NO individual?

But even better anyways, since C1 is even more archaic no wonder we find Basal Eurasian like admixture in him
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both Ush-Ishim and Oase were pré-NO, Oase had a lot of extra Neanderthal admixed recently.
 
After reading a bit more of it, I am starting to get the impression that Basal Eurasian is indeed Basal to Eurasians.

I was saying for a long time that J and some R lineages would be connected to Teal like people. Now after reading all this stuff it almost looks to me like, this CHG/Teal is not really a mixture of EF and EHG/ANE/WHG but rather that this Teal component is something like the uncle to EHG/ANE/WHG means those components evolved out of something very CHG/Teal like.

I also start to think that EHG is not really a mixture of WHG and ANE but something EHG like is possibly ancestral to both while something CHG like is ancestral to EHG

And this CHG/Teal group is the transition population from something Basal Eurasian related to EHG, it might possibly even be ancestral to EHG/ANE/WHG and closely related to ASI.

sdjzlp9rstuq.png



In this scenario population "W" would be EHG, and SHG would be the transition from EHG to WHG while population "X" maybe slighty more upstream would be CHG/Teal.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
Bronze age Steppe Y DNA is marked by patriarch lineages that represent ~100% of the male lineages. ~100% Eastern Yamnaya have R1b-Z2103, ~100% proto-Indo Iranians have R1a-Z94, ~100% Corded ware has R1a-M417, ~100% Eastern Bell Beaker has R1b-P312.
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I'm sorry, but this isn't true: Eastern Yamnaya is 100% L23, not Z2103... then, Corded Ware hasn't got 100% cca R1a: we have a good amount of R1b now.
 
Alan said:
Someone wrote this



Indeed IJ is quite older than R and brother to the parental K. If the samples are indeed from upper paleolithic, than the yDNA of those guys at this time might not play a role for Yamna yet cause by that time pre K lineages would still be around IranianPlateau and South_Central Asia.

No wonder we didn't found any R lineages. The timeline is simply too early.
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There is 10000 years to play with here.........from the burial of the J ydna and the separation of IJ haplogroups.

I doubt the split occurred in the caucasus, my guess is in europe on the black sea
 
Someone pointed out something recently which I had totally forgotten.

Yamna had ~50% CHG/Teal mtDNA and ~50% EHG specific mtDNA.

If CHG played no paternal role in Yamna and all admixture came via female influx( which sounds absurd to me on it's own) that would mean 100% female replacement but if that was the case we would need to find 90-100% CHG/Teal mtDNA in Yamna what is not the case. Than the J sample in EHG, so CHG contributed to EHG via male lineages but not to Yamna?
This hole theory has so many flaws it simply doesn't work.
 
Original R1b that migrated into the Yamnaya was mostly West Asian. That's why Yamnaya was 50% teal / West Asian.

It was actually that teal R1b mixed with EHG females...
 
Goga said:
Original R1b that migrated into the Yamnaya was mostly West Asian. That's why Yamnaya was 50% teal / West Asian.

It was actually that teal R1b mixed with EHG females...
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The Teal/CHG in EHG came via yDNA J and some female teal lineages (since such were found among EHG too) it seems. R1b in Samara is different from R1b in Yamna there are thousands of years in between. R1b l23 probably came from South with Teal herder/farmers and R1b1 in EHG is of different origin.
 
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