Teal people found: Caucasians!

It could be that I'm smoking crack, and I'm sure someone will point this out if it's the case, but there seems to be a common misconception about "Teal/CHG ", WHG, ENF, or all these components we speak of for that matter e.g. I hear it said that "Teal has alot of ANE", or "(Karelia/Samara) EHG already had Teal" etc.

My understanding is that there is no "ANE in Teal", but rather MA-1, the model ANEer, had a large component of Teal. Teal is just a pattern of allele frequencies found in Eurasia, as with all these other "populations"/components we speak of.

So (Karelia/Samara) EHG didn't have "Teal and ANE", but rather EHG had ANE, part of which includes the Teal component, because it came along with other ANE components. Because of this we would assume an "ANE" Teal origin rather than a CHG in this case.

This is of course all dependent on what we're comparing to, and what we're calling everything.

This is why the more ancient samples (MA-1, Kostenki, and Ust-Ishim) contain several of these components in large chunks. They're upstream closer to the Basal Eurasian roots which should have carried a piece of all of these components.
 
Alan said:
The Teal/CHG in EHG came via yDNA J and some female teal lineages (since such were found among EHG too) it seems. R1b in Samara is different from R1b in Yamna there are thousands of years in between. R1b l23 probably came from South with Teal herder/farmers and R1b1 in EHG is of different origin.
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This is really starting to look less and less likely, but it's still possible I guess.
 
Also, a Maykop mtDNA was found to be M52, which is Indian specific.

I think the only other Indian specific mtDNA was found in high status Mitanni, which makes sense given the Indo-Aryan language and post-dating the Vedic period in the Indus River region.

This whole picture is really starting to look quite complex. The J EHG is the kicker for me.

*EDIT* Samples were too old for Mitanni
 
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holderlin said:
Also, a Maykop mtDNA was found to be M52, which is Indian specific.

I think the only other Indian specific mtDNA was found in high status Mitanni, which makes sense given the Indo-Aryan language and post-dating the Vedic period in the Indus River region.

This whole picture is really starting to look quite complex. The J EHG is the kicker for me.
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As I pointed out quite a few times, Mitanni are not yet even clear to have been either Indo_Aryan or yet undivided Indo_Iranian. Mitanni is so archaic that if it even was Indo_Aryan, it came ultimately from the same region the Indo_Aryan core started to expand from. Mitanni on itself is as old as Indo_Aryan in India, means Mitanni did not came from India but possibly belonged to the same wave of Indo_Aryans (if they were Indo_Aryans) but went a different way.

Yes most of the Teal/CHG in EHG is indeed ANE connected and can be assumed to have come via the same source which brought ANE to Teal/CHG, and this percentage was estimated by calculators to be around 8%.

Well now we have however some EHG samples who do show more of the teal component which indeed seems to have come via the Teal farmers. There was one EHG sample who was 25% Teal and this prior to these CHG findings, which have pushed the general CHG admixture in EHG higher to average of 15% instead of 8%.

Also it seems more and more like the "ANE" in those Teal/CHG groups is not real ANE admixture but ancient shared ancestry which shows up in both. In fact considering that Kostenki who predates MA1 already had some Basal Eurasian, it looks more and more like something CHG like could be ancestral to both ANE and WHG which drifted so much away over time that they completely lost their Basal Eurasian affinity.

Take in mind EEF is probably connected to G and H Haplogroups and those are siblings of IJK which are connected to CHG, WHG, ANE and ENA.

I even assume that the ANE in EHG is not real admixture but shared ancestry with ANE and possibly something EHG like is ancestral to ANE and WHG. While something CHG like is ancestral to EHG and ENA/ASI. That could be another explanation why EHG seems to show allot of CHG ancestry.
 
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Alan said:
R1b in Samara is different from R1b in Yamna there are thousands of years in between. R1b l23 probably came from South with Teal herder/farmers and R1b1 in EHG is of different origin.
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This is what the real educated scientists on this issue are saying. But some amateur hobbyists are still living in their own dream world.

And yes, I do agree with you that there were multiple waves into the steppes from different times and different places.
 
And also




G0p306N.gif
 
Alan said:
As I pointed out quite a few times, Mitanni are not yet even clear to have been either Indo_Aryan or yet undivided Indo_Iranian. Mitanni is so archaic that if it even was Indo_Aryan, it came ultimately from the same region the Indo_Aryan core started to expand from. Mitanni on itself is as old as Indo_Aryan in India, means Mitanni did not came from India but possibly belonged to the same wave of Indo_Aryans (if they were Indo_Aryans) but went a different way.
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Current Indo-Aryans are mostly dravidian with some West Asian (teal) DNA in them. Dravidian is native to their region. So that means that the original Aryans were mostly West Asian people from the Iranian Plateau/BMAC.

Aryans that invaded the Indian Peninsula were mostly Caucaso-Gedrosia folks, almost identical to their direct descendants Kurds and Persians, although Kurds are more pure Iranids than Persians. Persians are more mixed with non-Iranids/non-Aryans...
 
Alan said:
As I pointed out quite a few times, Mitanni are not yet even clear to have been either Indo_Aryan or yet undivided Indo_Iranian. Mitanni is so archaic that if it even was Indo_Aryan, it came ultimately from the same region the Indo_Aryan core started to expand from. Mitanni on itself is as old as Indo_Aryan in India, means Mitanni did not came from India but possibly belonged to the same wave of Indo_Aryans (if they were Indo_Aryans) but went a different way.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know this, but the Indian mtDNA in Mitanni samples can still be made sense of much easier than that in Maykop.

*EDIT* Samples were too old to be Mitanni

Alan said:
Well now we have however some EHG samples who do show more of the teal component which indeed seems to have come via the Teal farmers. There was one EHG sample who was 25% Teal and this prior to these CHG findings, which have pushed the general CHG admixture in EHG higher to average of 15% instead of 8%.
Click to expand...

Yes, the Khvalynsk samples. This is the earliest evidence for Teal proper (CHG) on the steppe. This culture was the direct descendant of the Samara culture. This Teal also predates artifacts from the Caucuses by 1000 years. The graves are rich and ALL of the copper is from the Balkans.

Alan said:
Also it seems more and more like the "ANE" in those Teal/CHG groups is not real ANE admixture but ancient shared ancestry which shows up in both.
Click to expand...

Yes, after this paper this is very fitting. Before this paper I would have said that pure/high Teals(CHG) and WHG/EHG were descendant from Kostenki/MA-1 like populations, but it looks more like we had older WHG and CHG that had time to homogenize and later mixed with each other and other populations to form Kostenki and MA-1 like populations. But Ust-Ishim also had Teal and he was super old so whatever, more data needed.

Alan said:
In fact considering that Kostenki who predates MA1 already had some Basal Eurasian, it looks more and more like something CHG like could be ancestral to both ANE and WHG which drifted so much away over time that they completely lost their Basal Eurasian affinity.

Take in mind Basal Eurasian is connected to G and H Haplogroups and those are siblings of IJK which are connected to CHG, WHG, ANE and ENA.

I even assume that the ANE in EHG is not real admixture but shared ancestry with ANE and possibly something EHG like is ancestral to ANE and WHG. While something CHG like is ancestral to EHG. That could be another explanation why EHG seems to show allot of CHG ancestry.
Click to expand...

Yeah all plausible. The picture will just get more interesting.
 
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holderlin said:
Yes, I know this, but the Indian mtDNA in Mitanni samples can still be made sense of much easier than that in Maykop.
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Interesting. But are you sure it was Mittani, because as far as I know there are no Mittani DNA samples tested to date.

If somebody ever tested ancient Mittani samples I would know about that.
 
in regards to this topic thread , if your conclusions to not fit with the current ydna tree from after the paper below, then you are wrong.





European Journal of Human Genetics 23, 369-373 (March 2015) | doi:10.1038/ejhg.2014.106




Improved phylogenetic resolution and rapid diversification of Y-chromosome haplogroup K-M526 in Southeast Asia

Tatiana M Karafet, Fernando L Mendez, Herawati Sudoyo, J Stephen Lansing and Michael F Hammer
Abstract

The highly structured distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroups suggests that current patterns of variation may be informative of past population processes. However, limited phylogenetic resolution, particularly of subclades within haplogroup K, has obscured the relationships of lineages that are common across Eurasia. Here we genotype 13 new highly informative single-nucleotide polymorphisms in a worldwide sample of 4413 males that carry the derived allele at M526, and reconstruct an NRY haplogroup tree with significantly higher resolution for the major clade within haplogroup K, K-M526. Although K-M526 was previously characterized by a single polytomy of eight major branches, the phylogenetic structure of haplogroup K-M526 is now resolved into four major subclades (K2a–d). The largest of these subclades, K2b, is divided into two clusters: K2b1 and K2b2. K2b1 combines the previously known haplogroups M, S, K-P60 and K-P79, whereas K2b2 comprises haplogroups P and its subhaplogroups Q and R. Interestingly, the monophyletic group formed by haplogroups R and Q, which make up the majority of paternal lineages in Europe, Central Asia and the Americas, represents the only subclade with K2b that is not geographically restricted to Southeast Asia and Oceania. Estimates of the interval times for the branching events between M9 and P295 point to an initial rapid diversification process of K-M526 that likely occurred in Southeast Asia, with subsequent westward expansions of the ancestors of haplogroups R and Q.


To read this article in full you may need to log in, make a payment or gain access through a site license (see right).



http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n3/full/ejhg2014106a.html

This is an updated paper form her 2014 paper

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2015/02/18/gr.186684.114.DC1/Supplemental_Text.pdf
 
Alan said:
As I pointed out quite a few times, Mitanni are not yet even clear to have been either Indo_Aryan or yet undivided Indo_Iranian. Mitanni is so archaic that if it even was Indo_Aryan, it came ultimately from the same region the Indo_Aryan core started to expand from. Mitanni on itself is as old as Indo_Aryan in India, means Mitanni did not came from India but possibly belonged to the same wave of Indo_Aryans (if they were Indo_Aryans) but went a different way..
Click to expand...


And therefore the M52 in Maykop is very unlikely from India. And I think it represents an ancient clade of M from Western Asia.

Just look we have M1 in North Africa and M in India from somwhere these M must have arrived. West Asia is in the middle of both regions therefore it is quite logical to find some M there too.
 
Alan said:
And therefore the M52 in Maykop is very unlikely from India. And I think it represents an ancient clade of M from Western Asia.

Just look we have M1 in North Africa and M in India from somwhere these M must have arrived. West Asia is in the middle of both regions therefore it is quite logical to find some M there too.
Click to expand...
Maykop is at least 1000 years older than Mitanni. I don't get it how some people link M52 in Maykop with India through Mitanni who came into existence 1000 years after Maykop?

What I'm trying to say is that M52 could migrate into India with Mitanni or M52 could migrate into India 1000 years earlier with different culture.


And we don't even know whether Mitanni had some M52 or not
 
MtDNA M is so old (it is the sibling of N which gave birth in Western Asia) that by the time of Paleolithic already this Haplogroup was widespred in Eurasia. Simply just like yDNA C. I don't think we can limit M to any of the world regions.
 
Sile said:
in regards to this topic thread , if your conclusions to not fit with the current ydna tree from after the paper below, then you are wrong.



European Journal of Human Genetics 23, 369-373 (March 2015) | doi:10.1038/ejhg.2014.106




Improved phylogenetic resolution and rapid diversification of Y-chromosome haplogroup K-M526 in Southeast Asia

Tatiana M Karafet, Fernando L Mendez, Herawati Sudoyo, J Stephen Lansing and Michael F Hammer
Abstract

The highly structured distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroups suggests that current patterns of variation may be informative of past population processes. However, limited phylogenetic resolution, particularly of subclades within haplogroup K, has obscured the relationships of lineages that are common across Eurasia. Here we genotype 13 new highly informative single-nucleotide polymorphisms in a worldwide sample of 4413 males that carry the derived allele at M526, and reconstruct an NRY haplogroup tree with significantly higher resolution for the major clade within haplogroup K, K-M526. Although K-M526 was previously characterized by a single polytomy of eight major branches, the phylogenetic structure of haplogroup K-M526 is now resolved into four major subclades (K2a–d). The largest of these subclades, K2b, is divided into two clusters: K2b1 and K2b2. K2b1 combines the previously known haplogroups M, S, K-P60 and K-P79, whereas K2b2 comprises haplogroups P and its subhaplogroups Q and R. Interestingly, the monophyletic group formed by haplogroups R and Q, which make up the majority of paternal lineages in Europe, Central Asia and the Americas, represents the only subclade with K2b that is not geographically restricted to Southeast Asia and Oceania. Estimates of the interval times for the branching events between M9 and P295 point to an initial rapid diversification process of K-M526 that likely occurred in Southeast Asia, with subsequent westward expansions of the ancestors of haplogroups R and Q.


To read this article in full you may need to log in, make a payment or gain access through a site license (see right).



http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n3/full/ejhg2014106a.html

This is an updated paper form her 2014 paper

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2015/02/18/gr.186684.114.DC1/Supplemental_Text.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks, but you know many humiliated scientists had this attitude.
 
Alan said:
After reading a bit more of it, I am starting to get the impression that Basal Eurasian is indeed Basal to Eurasians.

I was saying for a long time that J and some R lineages would be connected to Teal like people. Now after reading all this stuff it almost looks to me like, this CHG/Teal is not really a mixture of EF and EHG/ANE/WHG but rather that this Teal component is something like the uncle to EHG/ANE/WHG means those components evolved out of something very CHG/Teal like.

I also start to think that EHG is not really a mixture of WHG and ANE but something EHG like is possibly ancestral to both while something CHG like is ancestral to EHG

And this CHG/Teal group is the transition population from something Basal Eurasian related to EHG, it might possibly even be ancestral to EHG/ANE/WHG and closely related to ASI.

sdjzlp9rstuq.png



In this scenario population "W" would be EHG, and SHG would be the transition from EHG to WHG while population "X" maybe slighty more upstream would be CHG/Teal.
Click to expand...
All these groups had common ancestors. Some separated earlier, some later and closer to LGM. All of them developed their own "personalities, distinctions (mutations) between 30 and 12 kya, during separation. After Ice Age was gone they started expending and remixing. The biggest factor in remixing happened when Near Eastern Farmers expended swallowing all the hunter gatherers and their admixtures.
I know I'm preaching to the quire but I had to vocalize this thought to give the latest findings this perspective.

In this paper I like that they captured the local hunter gatherers genome before admixing with farmers. I would love to see all the genomes of Mesolithic hunter gatherers of Eurasia in their premixed stage. This is how we are going to get to the bottom of all the admixtures conundrum.
 
Alan said:
And therefore the M52 in Maykop is very unlikely from India. And I think it represents an ancient clade of M from Western Asia.

Just look we have M1 in North Africa and M in India from somwhere these M must have arrived. West Asia is in the middle of both regions therefore it is quite logical to find some M there too.
Click to expand...
Could be the case as well. Farming has spread from Near East to Indus Valley, and it was spread by way of migrating farmers.
 
Goga said:
Interesting. But are you sure it was Mittani, because as far as I know there are no Mittani DNA samples tested to date.

If somebody ever tested ancient Mittani samples I would know about that.
Click to expand...

The samples I was thinking of are too old actually
 
I really wasnt suggesting anything other than that we havent seen an M mtDNA in this setting and that it was interesting that it was in Maykop. It wasnt a hint of any kind. The Syrian example was just the only other example from the period, the mechanism of which could be precisely explained with more degree of certainty.

Actually this is consistent with some sort of Uruk expansion influence.
 
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