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Thread: Teal people found: Caucasians!

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    Teal people found: Caucasians!

    It turns out that the mysterious "Teal People" lived in Caucasus region, in what is now Georgia, before mixing with Russian EHG, as Davidski has predicted - and they had been a genetically distinct, isolated population since at least 25,000 years ago:

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/15...comms9912.html

    http://m.phys.org/news/2015-11-fourt...gatherers.html

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...al-discovered-

    The sequencing of ancient DNA recovered from two separate burials in Western Georgia - one over 13,000 years old, the other almost 10,000 years old - has enabled scientists to reveal that the Yamnaya owed half their ancestry to previously unknown and genetically distinct hunter-gatherer sources: the fourth strand.

    By reading the DNA, the researchers were able to show that the lineage of this fourth Caucasus hunter-gatherer strand diverged from the western hunter-gatherers just after the expansion of anatomically modern humans into Europe from Africa.

    The Caucasus hunter-gatherer genome showed a continued mixture with the ancestors of the early farmers in the Levant area, which Manica says makes sense given the relative proximity. This ends, however, around 25,000 years ago - just before the time of the last glacial maximum, or peak Ice Age.

    At this point, Caucasus hunter-gatherer populations shrink as the genes homogenise, a sign of breeding between those with increasingly similar DNA. This doesn't change for thousands of years as these populations remain in apparent isolation in the shelter of the mountains - possibly cut off from other major ancestral populations for as long as 15,000 years - until migrations began again as the Glacial Maximum recedes, and the Yamnaya culture ultimately emerges.

    "We knew that the Yamnaya had this big genetic component that we couldn't place, and we can now see it was this ancient lineage hiding in the Caucasus during the last Ice Age," said Manica.

    While the Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry would eventually be carried west by the Yamnaya, the researchers found it also had a significant influence further east. A similar population must have migrated into South Asia at some point, says Eppie Jones, a PhD student from Trinity College who is the first author of the paper.

    "India is a complete mix of Asian and European genetic components. The Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry is the best match we've found for the European genetic component found right across modern Indian populations," Jones said. Researchers say this strand of ancestry may have flowed into the region with the bringers of Indo-Aryan languages.

    The widespread nature of the Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry following its long isolation makes sense geographically, says Professor Ron Pinhasi, a lead senior author from University College Dublin. "The Caucasus region sits almost at a crossroads of the Eurasian landmass, with arguably the most sensible migration routes both west and east in the vicinity

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    Here is a previous paper (from 2014) with the same samples from the same sites in Georgia:

    "Satsurblia: New Insights of Human Response and Survival across the Last Glacial Maximum in the Southern Caucasus":

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0111271

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    Another proof that those folks who Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon came from the Maykop civilization. R1b was in Maykop first before it entered into Yamnaya. Maykop is older than Yamnaya.

    In turn Maykop was highly influenced by folks from the Iranian Plateau (like Leyla-Tepe). Also, nice to see that the writers do associate Indo-Aryan people (Indians, ancient speakers of Sanskrit) with teal folks.


    R1a in the Iranian Plateau entered the steppes via the eastern shores of the Caspian Sea, while R1b entered the steppes also from the eastern shores of the Caspian Sea from the Iranian Plateau but also from the Maykop.


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    Y-DNA haplogroups of "Teal People", were J and J2:

    Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer (formerly: "Teal People"), 2 samples - J, J2
    Eastern Hunter-Gatherer (Karelia and Samara), 3 samples - R1b, R1a, J

    It seems, that both CHG and EHG shared haplogroup J.

    R1b was in Maykop first before it entered into Yamnaya.
    We don't know this, no R1b was found so far among "Teal people" - only J and J2.

    Which confirms Bicicleur's theory, that initially, in Paleolithic times, IJ split into I and J around the Caucasus, and then I migrated to Europe (becoming the main haplogroup of WHG) and J stayed in the Caucasus region, where CHG people emerged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Y-DNA haplogroups of "Teal People", were J and J2:

    Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer (formerly: "Teal People"), 2 samples - J, J2
    Eastern Hunter-Gatherer (Karelia and Samara), 3 samples - R1b, R1a, J

    It seems, that EHG and CHG shared haplogroup J.



    No R1b was found so far among "Teal people" - only J and J2.
    It's a known fact that R1b entered Yamnaya from Caucasus. R1b was originally from the Iranian Plateau, but before they entered Yamnaya they first settled down around Maykop. When R1b migrated into Yamnaya R1b folks brought teal with them.


    R1b or even R1a in Karelia could be brought by the same people who brought J2 to Karelia. And we all know that J2 came from West Asia. So, my point is that there were different waves of R1a and R1b from the Iranian Plateau Into the steppes. Some are very ancient, some are not very ancient...

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I haven't read the full paper yet, but at first sight the authors' interpretation seems rather hasty.

    First of all, if the teal component found in Yamna and Indo-Europeans is of Paleolithic Caucasian origin, then does that mean that the teal component should be split in two categories (Caucasian/Steppe vs Gedrosian/West Asian) ? Or is it the same Caucasian people who expanded south and spread the teal component around the Middle East, presumably with the expansion of J1 and J2a during the Kura-Araxes period ?

    The two samples tested were:

    - Satsurblia (13,300 years old) : Y-DNA J and mtDNA K3
    - Kotias (9,700 years old) : Y-DNA J2a and mtDNA H13c

    Both samples are almost completely teal-coloured in admixtures, except one which has about 10% of Near Eastern/Early Farmer admixture.

    What surprises me is that neither the Y-DNA nor the mtDNA lineages show an association with Yamna or any Indo-European culture. MtDNA K3 is found almost exclusively in Georgia nowadays, which means it wasn't part of the maternal lineages that mixed with Proto-Indo-Europeans. Likewise H13c is essentially found in the Caucasus and Middle East. Although H13a was found among Yamna and Bell Beakers, all H13 subclades are relatively rare in Europe today, except in Sardinia (8%), which is the only part of Europe with virtually no Steppe ancestry. When we see that the paternal lines belong to J* and J2a, two lineages also more common in the Middle East than Europe, it makes me wonder whether Mesolithic Caucasian really are ancestral to Yamna and other IE people.

    It's not because Paleolithic and Mesolithic Caucasians had the teal admixture that it necessarily is the source of the Yamna teal. No Paleolithic or Mesolithic genomes from Armenia, Iran or Kurdistan have been tested to date, and there is a good chance that these would have carried the same teal admixture. We can't draw any definitive conclusion from only two Caucasian samples without knowing what the genomes of people further south looked like during the same period.

    It would make more sense if the teal component was brought to the Steppe from eastern Anatolia or Armenia during the Neolithic. In terms of mtDNA, there is overwhelming evidence of a direct migration from that region to the Steppe, with the presence of mt-haplogroups H5, H8c, H15 or J1b1a, among others. None of these are Caucasian in origin, but rather from the northern Fertile Crescent. I still stand by my theory that R1b settled in that region during the Late Paleolithic, domesticated cattle, mixed with local women (H5, H8c, H15, J1b1a) who gave them the teal admixture, then moved across the Caucasus in search for pastureland for their cattle.
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    R1b was originally from the Iranian Plateau
    Goga, your "originally" usually means like 30,000 years ago.... But originally, we are all from Africa.

    That's why your excitement that someone migrated across the Iranian Plateau (after entering Eurasia from Africa) in Paleolithic times has not much to do with the issue of PIEs, who emerged as a distinct group much later than Paleolithic times.

    The region of Iran is a natural transit route from Africa to Europe and Northern Eurasia. Another such route is Anatolia.

    When people migrated out of Africa, there were only two obvious routes into Europe - either via Iran, or via Anatolia.

    It is not so extraordinary that many groups came from (or via) the Iranian Plateau, instead of Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The two samples tested were:

    - Satsurblia (13,300 years old) : Y-DNA J and mtDNA K3
    - Kotias (9,700 years old) : Y-DNA J2a and mtDNA H13c
    Here we go. We are talking here about very, very ancient DNA. We are talking about Caucasian H&G.

    Indo-European languages are younger than 10,000 years old. The very first Indo-Europeans were not H&G.

    When R1b from the Iranian Plateau entered Maykop it was aleady at least 5,000 years later.


    I did always believe that Proto-Indo-European language was born when J2 and R1 folks encountered each other..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    Goga, your "originally" usually means like 30,000 years ago.... But originally, we are all from Africa.
    Has nothing to do with Africa.

    Leyla-Tepe culture is 6,500 - 7000 years old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture


    I'm sure that R1b entered Maykop and Yamnaya Horizon from the Iranian Plateau around that time, 7,000 years ago. While Caucasian H&G are at least 10,000 years old...

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    We don't know where did R1 originally come from, but IMO the opinion of Jean Manco, that R1 (and by extension, both R1a and R1b) originally comes from an LGM refuge in Siberia, near Lake Baikal, is not improbable.

    After all, haplogroup R is most closely related to haplogroup Q, and both of these haplogroups correlate with ANE ancestry, which is common among Q-rich populations (Native Americans) and R-rich populations.

    But I'm afraid that Goga will not allow any haplogroup to emerge somewhere else than the Iranian Plateau. All nice haplogroups must be originally from Iran according to him. :)

    Haplogroup I is most closely related to haplogroup J, and now we have a confirmation, that they split from each other around the Caucasus, but J stayed in an LGM refuge there, while I survived the LGM in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    We don't know where did R1 originally come from, but IMO the opinion of Jean Manco, that R (and by extension, both R1a and R1b) originally comes from an LGM refuge in Siberia is not improbable.

    After all, haplogroup R is most closely related to haplogroup Q, and both of these haplogroups correlate with ANE ancestry, which is common among Q-rich populations (Native Americans) and R-rich populations.

    But I'm afraid that Goga will not allow any haplogroup to emerge somewhere else than the Iranian Plateau. All nice haplogroups must be originally from Iran according to him. :)

    Haplogroup I is most closely related to haplogroup J, and now we have a confirmation, that they split from each other around the Caucasus, but J stayed in an LGM refuge there.
    What you fail to understand is that 'teal' is very rich of ANE.


    R* is more than 25,000 years old. It has nothing to do with Leyla-Tepe, Maykop or Yamnaya. Let alone P. P is the ancestor of R* and Q and it is even much older. My guess is that P* evolved in (South)Central Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Y-DNA haplogroups of "Teal People", were J and J2:

    Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer (formerly: "Teal People"), 2 samples - J, J2
    Eastern Hunter-Gatherer (Karelia and Samara), 3 samples - R1b, R1a, J

    It seems, that both CHG and EHG shared haplogroup J.



    We don't know this, no R1b was found so far among "Teal people" - only J and J2.

    Which confirms Bicicleur's theory, that initially, in Paleolithic times, IJ split into I and J around the Caucasus, and then I migrated to Europe (becoming the main haplogroup of WHG) and J stayed in the Caucasus region, where CHG people emerged.
    I have red the paper hastily.
    The results are both surprising and enlightning.
    I have to adapt my view.
    Afaik Georgia was uninhabited during LGM.
    The Satsurblia J2a was probalby Eastern Epigravettian, which was both north and south of the Caucasus at that time, as well as north of the Black Sea.
    The Eastern Eprigravettian first appears after LGM near the Krim, so they probably survived LGM near the Sea of Azov, but another posibility is Kostenki were also people might have survived LGM.
    I now guess IJ was south of Caucasus 42 ka, but both I and J2 (or J?) crossed the Caucasus (well, as sea levels were lower one could probably walk the eastern Black Sea shores back then).
    While I moved further west in Europe, J2 may have stayed in the east or came back to the east just before LGM
    It is known that Pavlovian, develloped from Gravettian in Moravia and expanded back to Kostenki area just before LGM.

    If there is more info about the cultural context of the Satsurblia sample, it would be interesting.

    It is a big surprise as J2a has always been associated with the Natufians in the Levant 16-11 ka.
    This seems very unlikely now.

    J was also identified next to the Karelian hunter.

    PS : We can therefore report with confidence the discovery and analysis of human occupation in western Georgia during the period spanning between 17.9–16.2 ka cal. BP. The lithic analyses reveal that during this period, there existed a cultural (lithic) variant resembling the Eastern Epi-Gravettian

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0111271
    Last edited by bicicleur; 16-11-15 at 18:20.

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    Maciamo, it's true that vast areas still remain completely unsampled for ancient DNA.

    A map showing what we know about EHG, CHG and AEF (Anatolian Early Farmer) autosomal groups, and their Y-DNA:

    http://s17.postimg.org/y4i4vf4bj/EHG_CHG_AEF.png


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    the link between CHG and ANI might be the following :

    first neolithic in Baluchistan dates 9 ka

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh

    check YFull and you'll find an Indian subclade of J2a with TMRCA +/- 9000 years

    PS : check this : http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6057/

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    This is a very interesting and exciting paper, and gives us a lot of good information, but I think some people, including the authors, are being a little hasty here. I think it's best to wait for genomes from further east or south east.

    For one thing, from my skimming of the paper (if I'm wrong correct me), the authors found no or tiny Mal'ta affinity, which is supposed to equate to ANE affinity. Other, prior papers, found ANE in the population that mixed with EHG. All of these amateur calculators show high ANE in the Near East today. Is that all wrong, just as the low Middle East numbers in those calculators are wrong ? Doesn't it seem that perhaps there is a "teal" population, similar to this one which was found in what is now Georgia, which did have such a similarity? Perhaps this other "teal" population was located closer to the south Caspian and perhaps east of it?

    There is also Maciamo's point about the mtDna to consider. Perhaps this sample is not representative of the area, but if it is representative, the mtDna that went onto the steppe is much more similar to the mtDna of Armenia or eastern Anatolia generally, isn't it?

    I just went to Dienekes site and he has a post about it with the expected first comment. How can we go back to all the teal on the steppe is from women who were imported during the Neolithic or even the Copper Age if we have an EHG carrying y Dna "J" north of the Caucasus? Doesn't it seem as if there was "folk" movement going in either direction depending on the period. I think we need a lot more data before we can come to that sort of conclusion.

    http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/201...gatherers.html

    "Years ago, I detected the presence of a West_Asian genetic component (with dual modes in "Caucasus" and "Gedrosia") whose origins I placed in the "highlands of West Asia" and which I proposed spread into Europe post-5kya with Indo-European languages.

    Earlier this year, the study by Haak et al. showed that steppe invaders after 5kya brought into Europe a 50/50 mix of "Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer" (EHG) ancestry/An unknown population from the Near East/Caucasus. The "unknown population" was most similar to Caucasians/Near Easterners like Armenians but did not correspond to any ancient sample.

    A new paper in Nature Communications by Jones et al. finds this "missing link" in the flesh in Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from Georgia which they call "Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers" (CHG)."

    In my mind this also calls into question the stats positing such high admixture from Andronovo into India or Central Asia and south central Asia. I think a lot of the admixture was from these very early periods. Given how little actual "North European" is found in these populations I'm skeptical as to how much autosomal influence can be attributed to these late steppe civilizations


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    This is interesting. Does this mean that J is Indo European?
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    It also looks strangely as if this was the Basal Eurasian population? Or largely Basal Eurasian. What an unexpected development if that is true.

    Well, it's certainly a great place to hide out and avoid mixing for a couple of thousand years.

    To another point, the authors do seem to be saying that they think the Indo-European language was brought to the steppe with these people. I'm not sure about that yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    This is interesting. Does this mean that J is Indo European?
    Not really J*, but some subclades of J2a.

    I think that the very first proto-proto-Indo-European language was born on the Iranian Plateau when J2a (+G2a) folks mixed with R1b/R1a/R2a folks. = Caucasus (J2a & G2a) + Gedrosia (R1a/R1b/R2a)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It also looks strangely as if this was the Basal Eurasian population? Or largely Basal Eurasian. What an unexpected development if that is true.

    Well, it's certainly a great place to hide out and avoid mixing for a couple of thousand years.

    To another point, the authors do seem to be saying that they think the Indo-European language was brought to the steppe with these people. I'm not sure about that yet.
    we need DNA from Maykop
    Maykop postdated the split of Anatolian from PIE , so Maykop can't have been IE in origin
    Is Maykop J2a? Is Maykop teal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    we need DNA from Maykop
    Maykop postdated the split of Anatolian from PIE , so Maykop can't have been IE in origin
    Is Maykop J2a? Is Maykop teal?
    Maykop is older than Yamnaya. And it has been proven many times that there was a migration from Maykop into Yamnaya..


    Maykop was most likely R1b, with some J2a, G2a and even some R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Not really J*, but some subclades of J2a.

    I think that the very first proto-proto-Indo-European language was born on the Iranian Plateau when J2a (+G2a) folks mixed with R1b/R1a/R2a folks. = Caucasus (J2a & G2a) + Gedrosia (R1a/R1b/R2a)
    Makes sense to me.

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    Nobody should be surprised that I'm particularly interested in this study finding Paleolithic Y-DNA I2 in Switzerland.

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    The Caucasus hunter-gatherer genome showed a continued mixture with the ancestors of the early farmers in the Levant area, which Manica says makes sense given the relative proximity. This ends, however, around 25,000 years ago - just before the time of the last glacial maximum, or peak Ice Age.

    But going by this article it seems like there was a fourth H&G group related to WHG. This sounds like something very WHG like.

    From the article it seems something Teal like mixed with something WHG/EHG like H&G who were native to the Caucasus.

    "India is a complete mix of Asian and European genetic components. The Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry is the best match we've found for the European genetic component found right across modern Indian populations," Jones said. Researchers say this strand of ancestry may have flowed into the region with the bringers of Indo-Aryan languages.
    So these people must have been what we call Teal + something WHG like already if the Indo European signature in India resembles this mostly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Y-DNA haplogroups of "Teal People", were J and J2:

    Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer (formerly: "Teal People"), 2 samples - J, J2
    Eastern Hunter-Gatherer (Karelia and Samara), 3 samples - R1b, R1a, J

    It seems, that both CHG and EHG shared haplogroup J.



    We don't know this, no R1b was found so far among "Teal people" - only J and J2.

    Which confirms Bicicleur's theory, that initially, in Paleolithic times, IJ split into I and J around the Caucasus, and then I migrated to Europe (becoming the main haplogroup of WHG) and J stayed in the Caucasus region, where CHG people emerged.
    Two samples are still far too low to be able to say something.


    Don't you find it mysterious that there is J in EHG, there is J in those Caucasus "teal like" groups, but no J in Yamna? So J reached the EHG without any Teal admixture but skipped Yamna while Yamna is like 50-60% Teal?

    I would be suprised if we wouldn't find A: R1b in Caucasus in further samples or B: J in Yamna samples.


    And yes Bicicleur was right with his theory of the Caucasus root but also I preached milion times that people are being wrong in calling J an EEF exclusiv Haplogroup simply out of the logic that it's closest cousins I and K are WHG and ANE. J and I might be the WHG like ancestry in EEF actually. And Basal Eurasian might be connected to yDNA G and H

  25. #25
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I haven't read the full paper yet, but at first sight the authors' interpretation seems rather hasty.

    First of all, if the teal component found in Yamna and Indo-Europeans is of Paleolithic Caucasian origin, then does that mean that the teal component should be split in two categories (Caucasian/Steppe vs Gedrosian/West Asian) ? Or is it the same Caucasian people who expanded south and spread the teal component around the Middle East, presumably with the expansion of J1 and J2a during the Kura-Araxes period ?

    The two samples tested were:

    - Satsurblia (13,300 years old) : Y-DNA J and mtDNA K3
    - Kotias (9,700 years old) : Y-DNA J2a and mtDNA H13c

    Both samples are almost completely teal-coloured in admixtures, except one which has about 10% of Near Eastern/Early Farmer admixture.

    What surprises me is that neither the Y-DNA nor the mtDNA lineages show an association with Yamna or any Indo-European culture. MtDNA K3 is found almost exclusively in Georgia nowadays, which means it wasn't part of the maternal lineages that mixed with Proto-Indo-Europeans. Likewise H13c is essentially found in the Caucasus and Middle East. Although H13a was found among Yamna and Bell Beakers, all H13 subclades are relatively rare in Europe today, except in Sardinia (8%), which is the only part of Europe with virtually no Steppe ancestry. When we see that the paternal lines belong to J* and J2a, two lineages also more common in the Middle East than Europe, it makes me wonder whether Mesolithic Caucasian really are ancestral to Yamna and other IE people.

    It's not because Paleolithic and Mesolithic Caucasians had the teal admixture that it necessarily is the source of the Yamna teal. No Paleolithic or Mesolithic genomes from Armenia, Iran or Kurdistan have been tested to date, and there is a good chance that these would have carried the same teal admixture. We can't draw any definitive conclusion from only two Caucasian samples without knowing what the genomes of people further south looked like during the same period.

    It would make more sense if the teal component was brought to the Steppe from eastern Anatolia or Armenia during the Neolithic. In terms of mtDNA, there is overwhelming evidence of a direct migration from that region to the Steppe, with the presence of mt-haplogroups H5, H8c, H15 or J1b1a, among others. None of these are Caucasian in origin, but rather from the northern Fertile Crescent. I still stand by my theory that R1b settled in that region during the Late Paleolithic, domesticated cattle, mixed with local women (H5, H8c, H15, J1b1a) who gave them the teal admixture, then moved across the Caucasus in search for pastureland for their cattle.
    Good point and I am still saying the region between the Zagros and Elborz mountains is the missing link.

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