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Thread: Neolithic Greek and Anatolian genomes.

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    Neolithic Greek and Anatolian genomes.

    Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegean

    Below is a Table of the Samples with information(inclu. Y DNA, mtDNA).
    Neolithic greek Dna.jpg


    Reich already took genomes from the Barcin site in Neolithic Anatolia. This is more confirmation they were "EEF". Although the DNA from Greece is new, and confirms from 8,000-6,000 years ago in Greece there were "EEF" people. The mtDNA and Y DNA results are consistent with EEFs from Central Europe. Both Y DNAs are G2a2 and most mtDNA is K1.

    They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

    I'll look at the details later.

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    Theopetra cave was occupied since 24 ka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegean

    Below is a Table of the Samples with information(inclu. Y DNA, mtDNA).
    Neolithic greek Dna.jpg


    Reich already took genomes from the Barcin site in Neolithic Anatolia. This is more confirmation they were "EEF". Although the DNA from Greece is new, and confirms from 8,000-6,000 years ago in Greece there were "EEF" people. The mtDNA and Y DNA results are consistent with EEFs from Central Europe. Both Y DNAs are G2a2 and most mtDNA is K1.

    They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

    I'll look at the details later.

    where didyou get your years from, the paper says

    Recent radiocarbon dating indicates that by 6,600 to 6,500 cal BCE, sedentary farming

    communities were established in northwest Anatolia,
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    WHG arrived at Theopetra Cave 24 ka and Franchthi Cave 20 ka
    WHG was at the Marmara coast before Barcin neolithic (8.6 ka)
    EEF fishermen arrived at Franchthi cave 13 ka with obsidian from Melos and seeds of pulses from Anatolia, the fishermen even reached Grotta del'Uzzo in Sicily by 9.5 ka and they were HG on Cyprus 12.5 ka
    EEF replaced most of the WHG but admixed with a small part of them ; this was done allready before the arrival of the neolithic in SE Europe
    with neolithic more EEF arrived
    actually Stutgart genome, defined as EEF is allready mixture of pure EEF with some WHG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post

    They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

    I'll look at the details later.
    What border? Farmers settled South and Central Europe rather quickly, in 200-300 years.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    WHG arrived at Theopetra Cave 24 ka and Franchthi Cave 20 ka
    WHG was at the Marmara coast before Barcin neolithic (8.6 ka)
    EEF fishermen arrived at Franchthi cave 13 ka with obsidian from Melos and seeds of pulses from Anatolia, the fishermen even reached Grotta del'Uzzo in Sicily by 9.5 ka and they were HG on Cyprus 12.5 ka
    EEF replaced most of the WHG but admixed with a small part of them ; this was done allready before the arrival of the neolithic in SE Europe
    with neolithic more EEF arrived
    actually Stutgart genome, defined as EEF is allready mixture of pure EEF with some WHG
    some have said that the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    some have said that the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF
    Who, now that we have ancient dna, is saying that?


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    @bicicleur: on this mapping, the CHG seems at the opposite of WHG and even EHG, far from Bedawins too, and very Central Asian (ANE rich?)... not very "southerner" indeed? But I doubt the today and even the 3000 BC Caucasus populations was so close to them (drift + SOuthwest Asian...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Who, now that we have ancient dna, is saying that?
    the question was raised by T project in regards to the ancient T1a ( LBK_EN ) found in Karsdorf central germany
    autosomal ancestral components has been point to be around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian but If the WHG Loschbour is admixed with a Basal Eurasian group then the percentages for KAR6a should be around 34% WHG and 66% Basal Eurasian.

    Its an ongoing discussion in another forum.

    why do you never answer questions I give you , but you EXPECT answers from me ...........is this an administrators rights?I still await my data you requested and sent for your answers, I think its over a year or more now...........will I ever see this promised reply???

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    Originally Posted by Fire Haired14

    They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

    LeBrok:What border? Farmers settled South and Central Europe rather quickly, in 200-300 years.
    The EEF/WHG combo didn't exist until after this Mesolithic sample lived. What this paper tells us, in my opinion is that mesolithic hunter gatherers moved around and that they didn't know or care if they were in the "European" part of Eurasia or the "West Asian" part of Eurasia.

    I'm not surprised by some of these conclusions. It was pretty clear right after Dienekes published that first talk by one of these authors about the mesolithic mtDna they found, which was very similar to what was found in the Central European Neolithic, and which contained no U5 at all.

    This paper provides further support for what I speculated about in the past, that hunter-gatherers already autosomally, and yDna, and mtDna "EEF" like, or, if you prefer, "Anatolian farmer" like, might have migrated into Europe proper by the Mesolithic, and that when agriculture developed, it was brought to Europe by "cousins" very much similar to them autosomally. For all we know, similar populations might have existed in Italy as well.

    The other thing the paper confirms is that, as I said many times, Paschou et al were correct. Both Cardial and LBK derived from a group that went from the Near East to Greece (the Aegean), where the two streams separated.

    "This result is consistent with early farmers migrating from the Aegean via at least two independent routes into central and southwestern Europe."


    The authors point out the obvious discontinuity between the Anatolian farmers and modern Near Easterners. The question remaining is when and with what group(s) did this change come? According to prior papers, the change in Greece, at least, doesn't seem to have occurred in the Bronze Age, but earlier during the transition to the late Neolithic. Unfortunately I don't remember if any dates were provided. That would be important, given the differences in nomenclature depending on the area and even on the nationality of the researchers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the question was raised by T project in regards to the ancient T1a ( LBK_EN ) found in Karsdorf central germany
    autosomal ancestral components has been point to be around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian but If the WHG Loschbour is admixed with a Basal Eurasian group then the percentages for KAR6a should be around 34% WHG and 66% Basal Eurasian.

    Its an ongoing discussion in another forum.

    why do you never answer questions I give you , but you EXPECT answers from me ...........is this an administrators rights?I still await my data you requested and sent for your answers, I think its over a year or more now...........will I ever see this promised reply???
    I'm sorry, but none of this makes any sense. You stated that some people were claiming that "the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF". First of all, you can't "convert" to a different autosomal group, although you can "convert" from hunter-gathering to farming. Second of all, if what these people meant was that this LBK sample was a WHG genetically who adopted farming, that is patently absurd given all the ancient dna papers published in the last four years, which shows that the EN in Europe were all very much alike and had picked up very MINIMAL WHG. Obviously, I wondered who could be saying such a totally unsupported thing.

    Just parenthetically, when people post on a website, it should be clear that ANY member can either support the comment or ask for proof of what is being claimed. If you don't want to be questioned about your statements, don't post. Plus, I actually didn't think that it was you who believed this.

    Your subsequent statement is about a totally different matter, which has to do with which ancient population groups in Anatolia admixed to "create" the first farmers. It is based on speculation about Basal Eurasians, a ghost population for which we don't have a sample, and may or may not in actuality exist. IF they existed, and IF they are a "source" for the Anatolian farmers, the other group, IF there was only one, would at most have been WHG like, not Loschbour, as these groups were separated from each other for tens of thousands of years. Given all of this, any numbers about "Basal UHG" vs other "UHG" in the early Anatolian farmers are so speculative as to be totally unhelpful.

    As to the "invention" of agriculture in the NEAR EAST, I have no idea whether there was a "Basal Eurasian" group that "invented" farming, or if it was a group already admixed for thousands of years which invented it. If I had to guess I'd guess the latter, but no one can possibly know at the present time.

    I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about in the last part of your post. What data did I promise you a year ago? I always try to respond to civil requests for information, although sometimes I either can't find it, or it doesn't exist. I suggest you cool off and try to conduct yourself rationally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm sorry, but none of this makes any sense. You stated that some people were claiming that "the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF". First of all, you can't "convert" to a different autosomal group, although you can "convert" from hunter-gathering to farming. Second of all, if what these people meant was that this LBK sample was a WHG genetically who adopted farming, that is patently absurd given all the ancient dna papers published in the last four years, which shows that the EN in Europe were all very much alike and had picked up very MINIMAL WHG. Obviously, I wondered who could be saying such a totally unsupported thing.

    Just parenthetically, when people post on a website, it should be clear that ANY member can either support the comment or ask for proof of what is being claimed. If you don't want to be questioned about your statements, don't post. Plus, I actually didn't think that it was you who believed this.

    Your subsequent statement is about a totally different matter, which has to do with which ancient population groups in Anatolia admixed to "create" the first farmers. It is based on speculation about Basal Eurasians, a ghost population for which we don't have a sample, and may or may not in actuality exist. IF they existed, and IF they are a "source" for the Anatolian farmers, the other group, IF there was only one, would at most have been WHG like, not Loschbour, as these groups were separated from each other for tens of thousands of years. Given all of this, any numbers about "Basal UHG" vs other "UHG" in the early Anatolian farmers are so speculative as to be totally unhelpful.

    As to the "invention" of agriculture in the NEAR EAST, I have no idea whether there was a "Basal Eurasian" group that "invented" farming, or if it was a group already admixed for thousands of years which invented it. If I had to guess I'd guess the latter, but no one can possibly know at the present time.

    I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about in the last part of your post. What data did I promise you a year ago? I always try to respond to civil requests for information, although sometimes I either can't find it, or it doesn't exist. I suggest you cool off and try to conduct yourself rationally.
    your reply is illogical for you to state a percentage of WHG or EEP cannot change ............you make no sense. Please stop inventing data to suit your needs.

    Your typical reply from yourself and others on other forums when the results do not fit their thinking is ..................we need to get more ancient DNA ..............most likely you will still be saying this even if after another 10000 ancients are discovered.

    This will be my last reply to you until the matter discussed in my last sentence in my previous post is resolved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    What border? Farmers settled South and Central Europe rather quickly, in 200-300 years.
    ??? Actually it took them around 2000 years (from ~8000 ybp to ~6000 years before present):

    By the way - they migrated not only by land, but also by boat (for example from Greece to Iberia):

    http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.o...6.figures-only



    Here we can see that once they moved north, the speed of their advance slowed down (red color):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    your reply is illogical for you to state a percentage of WHG or EEP cannot change ............you make no sense. Please stop inventing data to suit your needs.

    Your typical reply from yourself and others on other forums when the results do not fit their thinking is ..................we need to get more ancient DNA ..............most likely you will still be saying this even if after another 10000 ancients are discovered.

    This will be my last reply to you until the matter discussed in my last sentence in my previous post is resolved.
    That will obviously absolutely shatter me, but as I don't have the vaguest idea what you're talking about, I will have to try to bear it bravely.

    For the record, I will in the future, as I have done in the past, point out that certain posts make absolutely no sense or are unsupported by any genetic, archaeological and/or historic data, regardless of the identity of the poster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ??? Actually it took them around 2000 years (from ~8000 ybp to ~6000 years before present):

    By the way - they migrated not only by land, but also by boat (for example from Greece to Iberia):

    http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.o...6.figures-only



    Here we can see that once they moved north, the speed of their advance slowed down (red color):
    According to new research it was a bit faster than that. Except the Northern part of Europe. They took over Balkans in 200-300 years.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...469#post463469

    Regardless of the speed, I'm not sure where FireHaird want to draw the border between EEF and WHG? Farmers progress was constant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That will obviously absolutely shatter me, but as I don't have the vaguest idea what you're talking about, I will have to try to bear it bravely.

    For the record, I will in the future, as I have done in the past, point out that certain posts make absolutely no sense or are unsupported by any genetic, archaeological and/or historic data, regardless of the identity of the poster.
    Im no moderator but I can say this, some of us are here to boast about their "ancestry's pureness" but some of us are here to learn. Every good scholar may get the answer wrong but the most important part is to learn from our mistakes. ^_^

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegean

    Below is a Table of the Samples with information(inclu. Y DNA, mtDNA).
    Neolithic greek Dna.jpg


    Reich already took genomes from the Barcin site in Neolithic Anatolia. This is more confirmation they were "EEF". Although the DNA from Greece is new, and confirms from 8,000-6,000 years ago in Greece there were "EEF" people. The mtDNA and Y DNA results are consistent with EEFs from Central Europe. Both Y DNAs are G2a2 and most mtDNA is K1.

    They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

    I'll look at the details later.
    Such a nice article btw :)
    Last edited by Twilight; 28-11-15 at 06:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    According to new research it was a bit faster than that. Except the Northern part of Europe. They took over Balkans in 200-300 years.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...469#post463469

    Regardless of the speed, I'm not sure where FireHaird want to draw the border between EEF and WHG? Farmers progress was constant.
    I think he may have meant that the border between the WHG and the genetically "Anatolian farmer/EEF like" hunter-gatherers of Greece (if it turns out that Mesolithic hunter gatherers similar to the farmers genetically had indeed moved into Greece before the "invention" of farming and animal domestication) was probably north and west of Greece.

    That may be true, but as I've speculated before, perhaps it went up along the Adriatic, and perhaps it extended further to the west into Italy as well.

    Ed. At any rate, this doesn't mean that the Neolithic didn't come to Europe with farmers from the Near East. It just means that it's possible some of their cousins had arrived before them.
    Last edited by Angela; 28-11-15 at 21:55.

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    ROFL none of these Northern Greek samples was E-V13. It looks like E-M78 mutated in E-V13 somewhere in the western med. It's either Italy or Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think he may have meant that the border between the WHG and the genetically "Anatolian farmer/EEF like" hunter-gatherers of Greece (if it turns out that Mesolithic hunter gatherers similar to the farmers genetically had indeed moved into Greece before the "invention" of farming and animal domestication) was probably north and west of Greece.

    That may be true, but as I've speculated before, perhaps it went up along the Adriatic, and perhaps it extended further to the west into Italy as well.

    Ed. At any rate, this doesn't mean that the Neolithic didn't come to Europe with farmers from the Near East. It just means that it's possible some of their cousins had arrived before them.
    Now I get it, thanks. Perhaps it denots some border between them.
    What immediately pops up is close relation of hunter gatherers in their tribes, and "international" character of farmers, judging by variety or lack of such of haplogroups. Farmers were like a vacuum going over carpet of Eurasia, lol.

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    So is this the ultimate evidence that at least some mtdna K linages are linked with WHG? That would explain why MENAs who havs them, like Levantines, have some WHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the question was raised by T project in regards to the ancient T1a ( LBK_EN ) found in Karsdorf central germany
    autosomal ancestral components has been point to be around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian but If the WHG Loschbour is admixed with a Basal Eurasian group then the percentages for KAR6a should be around 34% WHG and 66% Basal Eurasian.

    Its an ongoing discussion in another forum.

    why do you never answer questions I give you , but you EXPECT answers from me ...........is this an administrators rights?I still await my data you requested and sent for your answers, I think its over a year or more now...........will I ever see this promised reply???

    Is that because in some ADMIXTURE runs K=20 Loschbour has EEF admixture? Because I have a hunch that it's noise, caused by the way ADMIXTURE tries to separate core populations and admixted ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think he may have meant that the border between the WHG and the genetically "Anatolian farmer/EEF like" hunter-gatherers of Greece (if it turns out that Mesolithic hunter gatherers similar to the farmers genetically had indeed moved into Greece before the "invention" of farming and animal domestication) was probably north and west of Greece.

    That may be true, but as I've speculated before, perhaps it went up along the Adriatic, and perhaps it extended further to the west into Italy as well.

    Ed. At any rate, this doesn't mean that the Neolithic didn't come to Europe with farmers from the Near East. It just means that it's possible some of their cousins had arrived before them.

    Kostenki14 has affinity with the non-WHG part of EEF:

    Bichon Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0065 -0.877 309406
    Iberia_Mesolithic Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0284 -3.942 396775
    Loschbour Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0215 -3.029 439854
    Hungary_HG Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0045 -0.633 351009

    Middle Neolithic Iberians have far more WHG than Oetzi.

    I have a hunch that a small part of EEF actually is decendant from K14, and that the alleged Basal Eurasian admixture in K14 is actually not admixture in K14, but admixture in Anatolians from K14, which was eliminated by drift in other decendants of K14 due to isolation of LGM. I'm still thinking of the D-stat which could separate that, though.

    EDIT: The difference in those D-stats between Bichon (13k yo) and Iberian_mesolithic subtracted from K14 on the one end and Losch and KO1 subtracted from K14 on the other end puzzles me very much. The CB13 paper already found out that KO1 like type WHG is the most likely candidate for WHG admixture in EEF. But Loschbour is not, as is clearly shown in that paper. The only thing that I can think of is that La Brana is far older than currently is mentioned - Misdated somehow - and some shared drift by the newer ones is also shared by the EEF part. But that would still be very strange.

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    It is a damn shame that we only have the mtDNA of those HG's. This way we can't correlate the mtDNA with a component.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    What I find particularly interesting in this study is the absence of mt-haplogroup H, apart from one H5 sample. I have long argued that most H subclades were native to Europe (except H2, H5, H7, H13 and H20, which are Near Eastern in origin). Most people seem to have been convinced that H1, for instance, came with Neolithic farmers, simply because it hasn't been found in Mesolithic Europeans samples so far but suddenly pops up in Neolithic samples. Despite that evidence I continued to be skeptical and argued that H1 originated in southern Europe and was among the first lineages assimilated by Neolithic farmers and brought further north. The Anatolian data supports my hypothesis.

    As for the Mesolithic Greek K1c, I have written several years ago that K1c was not brought by Neolithic farmers, but was probably of Indo-European origin, meaning Eastern Hunter-Gatherer. Those samples Mesolithic Thessaly would imply that K1c was found not just in the Steppes, but also a bit further south following the western Black Sea coast, which is very plausible for mobile hunter-gatherers.

    EDIT : It would be interesting to see how the two Mesolithic Greeks samples compare with Steppe samples in term of admixture. Will they carry EHG admixture ?
    Last edited by Maciamo; 29-11-15 at 15:44.
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