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Thread: Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    That same Constantine also said that the whole area was desolated, so drop your hopes with his text.
    Area today's Albania and surrounding was depopulated, but Slavic people and Free Dacian people filled the space.

    One possible movement of Carpi tribe from Carpathian (province Moldova in Romania and beyond) to Albania.




    Today there are places and toponyms in Albania which have root word Karp or similar.

    Old Albanian : karpë = cliff, rock

    For example Karpen in Kavajë municipality, Albania.






    Photo near Karpen:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Area today's Albania and surrounding was depopulated, but Slavic people and Free Dacian people filled the space.

    One possible movement of Carpi tribe from Carpathian (province Moldova in Romania and beyond) to Albania.




    Today there are places and toponyms in Albania which have root word Karp or similar.

    Old Albanian : karpë = cliff, rock

    For example Karpen in Kavajë municipality, Albania.






    Photo near Karpen:

    lol keep trying you may solve it one day garrick lool.your not even close.Albanoi first occurs in extant written sources in a work of Ptolemy dating back to 150 AD.of the Albanoi" appears on a map of Ptolemy, a place located in what is now North central Albania.The area where they were located, has been identified by latter historians with the zgerdesh hill-fort near kruja in northern Albania also tosk kruja dont you think laberia ;)

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    This is the reason why albanians are influenced with dacio-illyrians.We bordered them before the 4ctry.This is perfect map of how it was.Dont forget nis on this map.The city was among several taken in the Roman conquest in 75 BC; the Romans built the via militaris in the 1st century, with Naissus being one of its key towns; it is also the birthplace of Constantine the Great, the first Christian Emperor.even more explains albanians influence by the roman an latin.this map our lands bordered with dacians.also if you look close on this map you will see bora it means snow in albanian

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    look some names hear..An look at bora.albanian means snow.fits perfect because where bora is on map it is a mountain region..look close
    Last edited by ukaj; 10-01-16 at 05:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    lol keep trying you may solve it one day garrick lool.your not even close.Albanoi first occurs in extant written sources in a work of Ptolemy dating back to 150 AD.of the Albanoi" appears on a map of Ptolemy, a place located in what is now North central Albania.The area where they were located, has been identified by latter historians with the zgerdesh hill-fort near kruja in northern Albania also tosk kruja dont you think laberia ;)
    Stop quoting me and stop sending PM to me. I expressed my opinion clearly. You are the next serb trol.

    P. S.
    It's ridiculous, even the PM you are not able to write in Albanian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Getae are in romania and they are not dacian
    Yes Sile, Free Dacian and probably some tribes considered as Dacian were different by ethnicity, not ethnic Dacian

    Latin language introduced by Romans relatively quickly engulfed areas of Illyricum, Moesia and Dacia, romanization was permanent and successful.

    It was very useful not only because of Roman power, but also because people who speak different languages got chance that socialize, communicate, cooperate, act, trade together.

    There is list Free Dacian and Dacian tribes, and it is possible this list is not completed, it would be important for every tribe to we know ethnicity:


    • Aedi
    • Albocense - lived west of the Potulatenses


    • Anarti - lived in the north west


    • Apuli - lived in central Transylvania with their capital at Apulum (Piatra Craivii)
    • Biessoi
    • Biephi - lived west of the Buridavenses
    • Buridavenses - lived in northern Moldavia with their citadel Buridava
    • Calipizi - lived between the Dnestr and the Bug rivers
    • Carpi - lived east of the Carpathians and west of the Dnestr river. The name of the Carpathian Mountains probably comes from the name of this tribe
    • Caucoenses - lived to the east
    • Ciagisi - between the Saldenses and Piephigi
    • Clariae
    • Costoboci - lived in northern and north-eastern Dacia, reaching the territory of modern Ukraine and Moldavia
    • Cotenses - live east of the Buridavenses
    • Crobobizi and the Trizi - lived in Dobrogea
    • Getae
    • Keiasigi - lived in Transylvania
    • Napae
    • Osi
    • Peucini
    • Piephigi - lived in Moldavia and eastern Muntenia
    • Potulatenses - between the Albocenses and Sienses
    • Predavenses - lived in the west
    • Ratacenses - between the Predavenses and the Caucoenses
    • Sabokoi
    • Saldenses - lived in the Banat and Crisana
    • Saugdae
    • Sienses - lived east of the Potulatenses
    • Suci - lived in Oltenia with their citadel Sucidava at the mouth of the river Olt
    • Teurisci - lived in the north
    • Trixae
    • Tyragetae - lived at the mouth of the river Dnestr
    • Troglodytae.



    Ptolomy Dacia


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    How am i a serb trol.i expressed my opinon an you didnt like what i said then you insult me, goes both ways vlla...Who ever doesnt agree with you is are serbians wow.I spoke albanian to you.Clearly you were wrong.I wasnt rude i spoke to you in a good manner,Im happy to not speak with a person who clearly doesnt want to see options of our people grow up my friend.You are wrong an you hate what i say is facts.get all the albanian in hear an prove me wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    lol keep trying you may solve it one day garrick lool.your not even close.Albanoi first occurs in extant written sources in a work of Ptolemy dating back to 150 AD.of the Albanoi" appears on a map of Ptolemy, a place located in what is now North central Albania.The area where they were located, has been identified by latter historians with the zgerdesh hill-fort near kruja in northern Albania also tosk kruja dont you think laberia ;)
    It is not good path every Alb in Europe and Asia linking with Albanians.

    For example:

    Dacian Albocense recorded by Ptolomy can be Albanian, but experts say Carpi are Albanians, and it is possible Costoboci are Albanians and it is possible another tribe (maybe Biessoi?), but it is small probability for Albocense.

    It is same for Albanoi.

    Albocense and Albanoi nothing to do with today Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Yes Sile, Free Dacian and probably some tribes considered as Dacian were different by ethnicity, not ethnic Dacian

    Latin language introduced by Romans relatively quickly engulfed areas of Illyricum, Moesia and Dacia, romanization was permanent and successful.

    It was very useful not only because of Roman power, but also because people who speak different languages got chance that socialize, communicate, cooperate, act, trade together.

    There is list Free Dacian and Dacian tribes, and it is possible this list is not completed, it would be important for every tribe to we know ethnicity:


    • Aedi
    • Albocense - lived west of the Potulatenses


    • Anarti - lived in the north west


    • Apuli - lived in central Transylvania with their capital at Apulum (Piatra Craivii)
    • Biessoi
    • Biephi - lived west of the Buridavenses
    • Buridavenses - lived in northern Moldavia with their citadel Buridava
    • Calipizi - lived between the Dnestr and the Bug rivers
    • Carpi - lived east of the Carpathians and west of the Dnestr river. The name of the Carpathian Mountains probably comes from the name of this tribe
    • Caucoenses - lived to the east
    • Ciagisi - between the Saldenses and Piephigi
    • Clariae
    • Costoboci - lived in northern and north-eastern Dacia, reaching the territory of modern Ukraine and Moldavia
    • Cotenses - live east of the Buridavenses
    • Crobobizi and the Trizi - lived in Dobrogea
    • Getae
    • Keiasigi - lived in Transylvania
    • Napae
    • Osi
    • Peucini
    • Piephigi - lived in Moldavia and eastern Muntenia
    • Potulatenses - between the Albocenses and Sienses
    • Predavenses - lived in the west
    • Ratacenses - between the Predavenses and the Caucoenses
    • Sabokoi
    • Saldenses - lived in the Banat and Crisana
    • Saugdae
    • Sienses - lived east of the Potulatenses
    • Suci - lived in Oltenia with their citadel Sucidava at the mouth of the river Olt
    • Teurisci - lived in the north
    • Trixae
    • Tyragetae - lived at the mouth of the river Dnestr
    • Troglodytae.



    Ptolomy Dacia



    The peucini are the same as bastarnae people...........mostly of east-germanic ethnicity

    The...Biessoi.....................did you mean Bessi from the thracian -greek mountains? if so, they are thracian and where relocated in Roman times to italy as their northern neighbours the triballi where
    wiping them out

    the main findings are dated at the time of Trajan (emperor from 98 - 117 AD). After the last great achievements (Dacia, present Romania - Bulgaria ), in all probability these lands were given to former soldiers who just came from there (at that time most of the imperial troops came from the provinces; in this case was the population "Bessi or Bessoi").

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessica


    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    Attachment 7589
    Slavs were recorder by the greeks an romans.slavs were already settled in carpathians.but before that their were vandals in carpathian mountains,The albanio were already mention in albania before 6ctry.ther theory of albanian been from carpathian mountains is so wrong in many ways it doesnt fit the times of the indigenous names we have of certain places in albania montenegro.
    I cannot see your attachment...the administrator killed it


    The italian story of albanian montenegro from Roman scripts was that it was where a branch of thracian tribes divided the illyrians from the north with the epirotes and macedonians in the south.
    these "thracians" where quickly exterminated and eventually most of Montenegro became slav with later kingdoms called Hum and Zeta

    The coastal area was held by venetians for 600 plus years and that is why the venetian word montenegro ( means black mountains ) is used to name the country today

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The peucini are the same as bastarnae people...........mostly of east-germanic ethnicity

    The...Biessoi.....................did you mean Bessi from the thracian -greek mountains? if so, they are thracian and where relocated in Roman times to italy as their northern neighbours the triballi where
    wiping them out

    the main findings are dated at the time of Trajan (emperor from 98 - 117 AD). After the last great achievements (Dacia, present Romania - Bulgaria ), in all probability these lands were given to former soldiers who just came from there (at that time most of the imperial troops came from the provinces; in this case was the population "Bessi or Bessoi").

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessica


    Good question. No, in some Romaian sources Dacian Biessoi are different from Thracian Bessi. In any case similar name can make confusion, in absence of different sources that would clarify.

    But if we have no reliable facts we can turn off them or put question mark, same for all tribes for which we cannot determine ethnicity.

    For every tribe which is Free Dacian and Dacian someone should find ethnicity, for example:


    Teurisci = Celtic,

    Roxolani = Sarmatian,

    Carpi = Albanian,

    Agathyrsi = Scythian,

    Peucini = Germanic, etc.

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    [QUOTE=Sile;474028]I cannot see your attachment...the administrator killed it
    Last edited by ukaj; 11-01-16 at 15:23.

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    Hello guys. Here are constantly mentioned Porphyrogenitas migration of Slavs between 6 and 7 century, so I'm asking you because I'm not a connoisseur of history, is there where still recorded this migration of Slavs and that it is not a record of DAI?

  14. #314
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    i joined this forum only b/c of this thread.
    some people here focus on the tree and can't see the forest.

    albanians from kaukasus??
    how can you say that when the LEMNOS STEELE and OLYMPUS GODS have their proper etymologycal explanation only in albanian language?
    i can accept that some illirian words can be the same with todays slavic and that b/c of living close to each other but don't forget that illirians are the descendants of pelasgians
    and both lemnos dialekt and olympus gods considered to be pelasgian

    history is not always telling us the truth.
    language is the only way of seeing the past

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LAB View Post
    i joined this forum only b/c of this thread.
    Welcome to Eupedia, though I would suggest that maybe this thread isn't the best starting point.

    some people here focus on the tree and can't see the forest.

    albanians from kaukasus??
    With all respect, but Albania (or Caucasian Albania) was a historic territory in the Caucasus (on the approximate area of the modern - Turkic - country of Azerbaijan). Wether it bears any relation with the modern Albanians (which Garrick suggested), I do not think so. In my opinion, the ancient Caucasian Albanian spoke a non-Indo-European language that was related with modern Chechen (at least part of the same language family), whereas modern Albanian is indubitably an Indo-European language.

    how can you say that when the LEMNOS STEELE and OLYMPUS GODS have their proper etymologycal explanation only in albanian language?
    How much sense does it make to magically dismantle words from a 6th century BC stelae with a language that is spoken 2500 years later (modern Albanian)? It makes absolutely no sense. The Lemnian language was of course related with Etruscan.

    i can accept that some illirian words can be the same with todays slavic and that b/c of living close to each other but don't forget that illirians are the descendants of pelasgians
    and both lemnos dialekt and olympus gods considered to be pelasgian
    Actually you can forget right away about those "Pelasgian" fantasies. Ancient Illyria was geographically the western Balkans (modern Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro). Pelasgians refer to the pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece. I do not see - even if you look at only the basic geography - how the two are anywhere related (except inside Albanian nationalist fantasies).

    history is not always telling us the truth.
    language is the only way of seeing the past
    Just because we don't know everything for absolutely certain (that is part of science, mind you) does not give anybody the carte blanche for indulging oneself in nationalist fantasies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Welcome to Eupedia, though I would suggest that maybe this thread isn't the best starting point.
    Let`s hope that we are not in front of another serb hidden as Albanian. This thing is getting boring.Soon we will realize this.



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    With all respect, but Albania (or Caucasian Albania) was a historic territory in the Caucasus (on the approximate area of the modern - Turkic - country of Azerbaijan). Wether it bears any relation with the modern Albanians (which Garrick suggested), I do not think so. In my opinion, the ancient Caucasian Albanian spoke a non-Indo-European language that was related with modern Chechen (at least part of the same language family), whereas modern Albanian is indubitably an Indo-European language.
    You are right. The problem of Garrick & co, i have explaned here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post472496

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    How much sense does it make to magically dismantle words from a 6th century BC stelae with a language that is spoken 2500 years later (modern Albanian)? It makes absolutely no sense. The Lemnian language was of course related with Etruscan.
    I agree. In general 2000 years sufficient that a language to be totally transformed. In few words if we can find an albanian text 2000 years old, probably i can not understand what is written in that text.
    Anyway we must have always in consideration your words:
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Just because we don't know everything for absolutely certain (that is part of science.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually you can forget right away about those "Pelasgian" fantasies.
    Again i agree with you. We don`t know nothing about Pelasgian. The Pellasgian origin of Albanian has no linguistic support. I prefer to let the Greeks to prove their origin from this heterogeneous and not IE group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Ancient Illyria was geographically the western Balkans (modern Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro). Pelasgians refer to the pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece. I do not see - even if you look at only the basic geography - how the two are anywhere related (except inside Albanian nationalist fantasies).
    We have a small difference here about Ancient Illyria:
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    The written ancient sources tell us the Illyrians, which were one of the biggest people of the peninsula, inhabited the western part of the Balkans in olden times. The northern border of the Illyrians extended up to the branches of the Danube, the Sava and the Drava. To the south, including the territory of pre-historical Epirus, it ran up to the Bay of Ambrakia (Preveza). The Morava and the Vardar rivers were its natural borders to the east and the coasts of the Adriatic and Ionian Seas were its western boundaries.
    So, from today Austria to the Bay of Ambrakia (Preveza).
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Pelasgians refer to the pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece. I do not see - even if you look at only the basic geography - how the two are anywhere related (except inside Albanian nationalist fantasies).
    The territory of Albania has been inhabited since prehistoric times. Our archaeologists have discovered traces of residential, the Neanderthal man in Xarra, Saranda, 100,000 years old, but he is disappeared entirely.
    The Neolithic cultures in Albania, (Podgorie, Dunavec, Maliq, Cakran, etc), are different from the culture of Thessaly (Greece). Between these two cultures has definitely existed exchanges relations, as evidenced by import of objects by genuine backgrounds from the culture of Thessaly (Greece), found these in Dunavec and Cakran (Korkuti, M. Andrea, Zh. 1974). Also in one of the capitals of the Neolithic cultures of Thessaly, on the acropolis of Dimini are found container imported from Dunavec culture. (Korkuti, M. 1995.127).


    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Just because we don't know everything for absolutely certain (that is part of science, mind you) does not give anybody the carte blanche for indulging oneself in nationalist fantasies.
    Agree.

  17. #317
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    homer said ''hellenes learned writting and building etc from pelasgians''
    pelasgians illyrians macedonians etc were called barbarians from ancient greek historians. right taranis?

    again we can find pelasgians fighting on the side of the trojans against hellenes in ILIADA(if that war ever happened)
    barbarian for hellenes= PEOPLE WHO SPEAK DIFFERENT LANGUAGE .

    so what language do you personally think those people were using?

    of course we don't know absolutely certain about how and when things happened in the past.
    but nobody can argue me about the meaning of the words of lemnos steele
    ( i can translate it for you if you're so curious mate, WORD BY WORD and not with hypothetical theories)

    and gods of olympus b/c even today they exist in their primary condition

    i don't have nationalist fantasies at all. i grew up in greece. i speak greek language better than the albanian although the meanings that greeks give upon those things are ridiculous.

    p.s ( i just saw LABERIA'S reply..)
    i'm not serb my friend i'm from the same place with you. ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    from very old venetian to still being used in current venetian

    snake is

    bìssa, ............. in English = snake ......... in italian = serpente

    from Illyrian Abeis

    but then illyrian and venetic mixed together ......like the current city Oderzo which was called Opitergium........Etymologically, "-terg-" in Opitergium stems from a Venetic root word indicating a market and also another city Trieste = Tergeste
    Terg from the venetic = Market and Est from the Illyrian meaning centre.
    Tergeste, with the -est- suffix typical of Illyrian

    And I am NOT saying Venetic and Illyrian are the same language
    In Albanian market = Treg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post

    The territory of Albania has been inhabited since prehistoric times. Our archaeologists have discovered traces of residential, the Neanderthal man in Xarra, Saranda, 100,000 years old, but he is disappeared entirely.
    The Neolithic cultures in Albania, (Podgorie, Dunavec, Maliq, Cakran, etc), are different from the culture of Thessaly (Greece). Between these two cultures has definitely existed exchanges relations, as evidenced by import of objects by genuine backgrounds from the culture of Thessaly (Greece), found these in Dunavec and Cakran (Korkuti, M. Andrea, Zh. 1974). Also in one of the capitals of the Neolithic cultures of Thessaly, on the acropolis of Dimini are found container imported from Dunavec culture. (Korkuti, M. 1995.127).
    Are you aware of the Slavic origin of the toponyms you placed now at least half if not all of those cultures you mentioned;
    Podgorie,Dunavec
    or the surrounding villages there Moglice,Dobercan,Peshtan,Osoje etc despite changing the names
    What should i ask is when did Albanians settled there,when this people become Albanians,how come so obvious Slavic toponyms in territory where you want to trace your origin from? your origin is certainly not from those cultures.

    Last edited by Milan; 02-02-16 at 11:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    In Albanian market = Treg.
    Usually assumed to be connected or borrowed Proto-Slavic *tъrgъ.
    Modern Slavic Trg including toponyms troughout Slavic countries like Trgoviste,Targoviste etc
    Trgovac=Trader

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Are you aware of the Slavic origin of the toponyms you placed now at list half if not all of those cultures you mentioned;
    Podgorie,Dunavec
    or the surrounding villages there Moglice,Dobercan,Peshtan,Osoje etc despite changing the names just like Greece did in what is Greek Macedonia today after border creations;
    What should i ask is when did Albanians settled there,when this people become Albanians,how come so obvious Slavic toponyms in territory where you want to trace your origin from? your origin is certainly not from those cultures.

    Yes, serbs lived in Greece and Albania before greeks and Albanians. Deretic explain very well this. I am speaking about something happened 7000 years ago.
    Also find Ducagjini d'Arbania in this thread and tell us were was your ancestors in that period of time.

    P. S.
    We have never changed the toponyms. Don't be a liar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Yes, serbs lived in Greece and Albania before greeks and Albanians. Deretic explain very well this. I am speaking about something happened 7000 years ago. Find Ducagjini d'Arbania in this thread and tell us were was your ancestors in that period of time.

    P. S.
    We have never changed the toponyms. Don't be a liar.
    I see Slavic origin of toponyms on the cultures you placed,therefore you can not trace your origin from there in any way,there is no continuity as we can see.

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    [QUOTE=Milan;475071]Are you aware of the Slavic origin of the toponyms you placed now at list half if not all of those cultures you mentioned;
    Podgorie,Dunavec
    or the surrounding villages there Moglice,Dobercan,Peshtan,Osoje etc despite changing the names just like Greece did in what is Greek Macedonia today after border creations;
    What should i ask is when did Albanians settled there,when this people become Albanians,how come so obvious Slavic toponyms in territory where you want to trace your origin from? your origin is certainly not from those cultures.

    nice question..
    there's your answer
    do the maths yourself (when slavic invasion occured?)

    In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius, mentions a location named Arbon (Greek: Ἄρβων; Latinised form: Arbo)[18][19] that was perhaps an island[20] in Liburnia or another location within Illyria. Stephanus of Byzantium, centuries later, cites Polybius, saying it was a city in Illyria and gives an ethnic name (see below) for its inhabitants.


    In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map that shows the city of Albanopolis (located Northeast of Durrës) and the tribe of Albanoi,[21] which were viewed as Illyrians by later historians.[22][23][24][25][26]


    In the 6th century AD, Stephanus of Byzantium, in his important geographical dictionary entitled Ethnica (Ἐθνικά),[27] mentions a city in Illyria called Arbon (Greek: Ἀρβών), and gives an ethnic name for its inhabitants, in two singular number forms, i.e. Arbonios (Greek: Ἀρβώνιος; pl. Ἀρβώνιοι Arbonioi) and Arbonites (Greek: Ἀρβωνίτης; pl. Ἀρβωνῖται Arbonitai). He cites Polybius[27] (as he does many other times[28][29] in Ethnica).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    I see Slavic origin of toponyms on the cultures you placed,therefore you can not trace your origin from there in any way,there is no continuity as we can see.
    Can you make the etymology of actual capital of Serbia and the second biggest city of Serbia Nis, pls?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Can you make the etymology of actual capital of Serbia and the second biggest city of Serbia Nis, pls?
    Niš is not capital of Serbia,you don't even know the capital cities of your neighboring countries;
    The etymology of the original name Naissos ("city of the nymphs") is derived from a mythical creature of Greek mythology - Naiad (from the Greek νάειν, "to flow," and νᾶμα, "running water") which was the nymph of freshwater streams rivers and lakes. Niš (Serbian Cyrillic: Ниш, pronounced is a possible location of Nysa, a mythical place in Greek mythology where the young god Dionysus was raised.
    This place is also a birth place to a great emperor of Thraco-Illyrian origin Constantine the Great.

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