Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

:annoyed: because you keeping bringing up Albanian material 700 years after the illyrians had disappeared from history ................that's why Albanian connection with Illyrian is wrong.

Bosnians, Croatians and Montenegrins have 100 time more claim on illyrian descent than the Albanians .................that's the Final conclusion

Because I said I made my final conclusion (y).............that's the end of the discussion ..........have a good year
Are you joking me?bosnians croatians,montenegro has more claim to illyrians?oh wow now i have seen it all..All these people are slavs.slavs come in late in the migration after the illyrians lived their hundered an hundreds of years earlyer..An since you guys say albanians are free dacians witch is a complete joke this would mean since you guys are satem language you also came from migration im guessing behind carpathian mountains..hahaha montenegro was part of albanians land MAL I ZI IS the rightful name of montenegro black forest. you guys try an try to distant albanians from where they are now.indo iranian lmfao..How many times do you guys need to understand last time,ALBANIAN LANGUAGE WAS NEARLY LATINISED BUT STOPPED,BORROWED FROM SATEM LANGUAGES TURKISH,BALTIC SLAV,BULGARIAN,THIS WILL CHANGE PARTS OF ANY LANGUAGE..n. Proto-Albanian’s contact with Latinextended over a period of six centuries, from the 1st century AD – the 6th century AD.Proto-Albanian’s contact with Greece and the Greek influences had already taken place eight centuries earlier in 775 B.C.these dates do not match what garric has posted..The earliest references to the Albanian people date back to 150 A.D when the greatgeographer Ptolemy9It was the work of Franz Bopp (1854) which made it possible for the Albanian languageto be recognized as an Indo-European language. Comparing a word in different languages, inorder to derive a common root and then comparing that root to the base language, constitutes itsorigin from the Indo-European base language. Being true for every other Indo-Europeanlanguage, this is true even for the Albanian language. Undeniably the following words inAlbanian have common roots with the parent language and thus allowed Franz Bopp (1854) torefer to Albanian as an Indo-European language:mentioned an Illyrian tribe, in the heart of the modern-day Albania, calledthe Albanoi.
Albanian’s phonological system has undergone continuous changes through the centuries untilthe final development of standard Albanian.
The Albanian language has seven vowels /a e i o u y ë/ (IPA10 Short */o/ has become /a/. That is the same as in Greek, Germanic or Lithuanian:/a ɛ i ɔ u y ə /) with the last twobeing developed later on, due to the evolution of the language. The quality of the tonic syllables,of three of the five short vowels of the PIE*/a i u /, has in general been preserved in Albanian.
some typical examples would be appropriate inorder to understand the evolution of certain consonants. Velars */k g gh/ produced /f g / in Albanian and later through palatalization before a frontvowel gave ‘q’ and ‘gj’ Palatals */ḱ ĝ ĝh / gave ‘th’ and ‘dh’ The labiovelars */kʷgʷgʷh/ produced /s/ and /z/ respectively before /i/ or /e/ and theybecame /k/ and /g/ in other cases, behaving as pure velars.According to Mallory (1997) the personal name Teuta13 <*Teutana and the identicalname of her tribe, corresponds to ‘Goth þiuda eng.folk’, to ‘Latv.tàuta eng. people’, to ON þjõðeng.folk’, all of which come from ‘‘PIE *teutéha- eng. the people14With regard to the fact that the Albanian language has been spoken in the same locationunder a great period of time, is also supported by other Balkan specialists, Thomason (2001:106) draws the conclusion that the Albanian language is a descendant of the earlier inhabitants ofthe same region, the Illyrians.’(288). ‘Teuta’ has been andstill is used nowadays as a first name by many Albanian women.

Language contact presupposes the coexistence of two or more languages in the sameplace during the same time and the communication between the speakers of those languages. Aslanguage contact presupposes also the face-to-face communication among those speakers orgroups of speakers, language contact usually occurs when two or more groups of speakers areneighbors. There is language contact even when speakers of two or more languages co-inhabit inthe same community, in which case there is bilingualism or even multilingualism (Thomason,2001:1-4). That seems to be the case even with the Albanians: they have had contact with all theneighboring groups of people and still has contact through the bilingual communities andminorities19One important consequence of this language contact, according to Sapir, is lexicalborrowing,
an important factor, especially in the case of Albanian, is thegeographic spread of the loanwords in direct proportion to the time the donor language has beenin contact with Albanian. As a result, the influences of the Latin language can be accounted forin all the territory of Albania, but this is not the case for old Italian or the Slavic languages.Another important factor is that of the donor language being more prestigious.

conclusion.albanians have always been in the present location,,their is no free dacian the times do not fit.albanians borrowed from satem language around us such as slavs.croatians,bosnians,montenego,macedonians all satem language..
 
Since we know from Pliny that Colchis>Colchinium>Olcinium>Ulcinj, if we look at the map, it can still be some Albanian cousin settlers... It would mean that they entered the area in BC era.
It also gets us back to Kartvelian-Albanian link hypothesis.


792px-Georgian_States_Colchis_and_Iberia_%28600-150BC%29-en.svg.png

It is interesting hypothesis, although Albanian is IE Satem and probably R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype bearers were main speakers of proto Albanian, probably with J2.

I think Colhidians are linked with Greeks, not Albanians, but anyway, it's sure interesting assumption.

There are more authors who claim that area of origin of Albanians is Caucasus, and among them are Albanians.

One of them is Dr Philip Curti, according his surname he is Albanian by origin.

Curti writes:

AIOCWZT.png


Curti considers that Albanians came from eastern Caucasus. But he gives complicated assumption that Albanians came in three waves, two of them moving from Caucasus over area around Black sea to South Europe and further to northern Albania, in two different routs, and in both cases refer to Gheg Albanians and one of them from Caucasus through Anatolia to South of Albania, what refer to Tosk Albanians. Curti speaks about 1500-800 years BC.

KAqabt6.png


Curti highlights differences in physical characteristics between Ghegs and Tosks, and classify them in different types. According him Armenians are metrically like Albanians, especially the Gheg, in most antropological characteristics:

s83O9hO.png


The author concludes for origin of Albanian there is evidence which supports Caucasian nidus:

UnxZary.png
 
It is interesting hypothesis, although Albanian is IE Satem and probably R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype bearers were main speakers of proto Albanian, probably with J2.

I think Colhidians are linked with Greeks, not Albanians, but anyway, it's sure interesting assumption.

There are more authors who claim that area of origin of Albanians is Caucasus, and among them are Albanians.

One of them is Dr Philip Curti, according his surname he is Albanian by origin.

Curti writes:

AIOCWZT.png


Curti considers that Albanians came from eastern Caucasus. But he gives complicated assumption that Albanians came in three waves, two of them moving from Caucasus over area around Black sea to South Europe and further to northern Albania, in two different routs, and in both cases refer to Gheg Albanians and one of them from Caucasus through Anatolia to South of Albania, what refer to Tosk Albanians. Curti speaks about 1500-800 years BC.

KAqabt6.png


Curti highlights differences in physical characteristics between Ghegs and Tosks, and classify them in different types. According him Armenians are metrically like Albanians, especially the Gheg, in most antropological characteristics:

s83O9hO.png


The author concludes for origin of Albanian there is evidence which supports Caucasian nidus:

UnxZary.png
slav.jpg
you can see clearly where albanian migration is from an the slavs,,no more rubbish garrick.
 
Are you joking me?bosnians croatians,montenegro has more claim to illyrians?oh wow now i have seen it all..All these people are slavs.slavs come in late in the migration after the illyrians lived their hundered an hundreds of years earlyer...

Are you serious...........do you actually think that when the slavs entered croatia, slovenia, bosnia and Montenegro that the land was empty of people.......it was a desert with ZERO people ?

I thought you where smarter than that.

the slavs did not even replace 50% of the populace that was in old Illyricum..............besides, the celts, goths and others had already absorbed illyrian tribes before the slavs arrived. The slavs just absorbed the admixture of illyrians, goths, celts etc
 
It is interesting hypothesis, although Albanian is IE Satem and probably R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype bearers were main speakers of proto Albanian, probably with J2.

I think Colhidians are linked with Greeks, not Albanians, but anyway, it's sure interesting assumption.

There are more authors who claim that area of origin of Albanians is Caucasus, and among them are Albanians.

One of them is Dr Philip Curti, according his surname he is Albanian by origin.

Curti writes:

AIOCWZT.png


Curti considers that Albanians came from eastern Caucasus. But he gives complicated assumption that Albanians came in three waves, two of them moving from Caucasus over area around Black sea to South Europe and further to northern Albania, in two different routs, and in both cases refer to Gheg Albanians and one of them from Caucasus through Anatolia to South of Albania, what refer to Tosk Albanians. Curti speaks about 1500-800 years BC.

KAqabt6.png


Curti highlights differences in physical characteristics between Ghegs and Tosks, and classify them in different types. According him Armenians are metrically like Albanians, especially the Gheg, in most antropological characteristics:

s83O9hO.png


The author concludes for origin of Albanian there is evidence which supports Caucasian nidus:

UnxZary.png
caucasus albania has no relation with modern albanian why are you posting propaganda?caucasus albania is a udi language is is not even related to albanian language anyway shape or form it is part of russian dilect your ancestors.I am biting my lip with propaganda you are posting.i think is time for me to educate you of the serbian people.do me favour look at gentics where caspian sea is,,follow that migration pattern into balkans,Your answer is clear.;)
 
Are you serious...........do you actually think that when the slavs entered croatia, slovenia, bosnia and Montenegro that the land was empty of people.......it was a desert with ZERO people ?

I thought you where smarter than that.

the slavs did not even replace 50% of the populace that was in old Illyricum..............besides, the celts, goths and others had already absorbed illyrian tribes before the slavs arrived. The slavs just absorbed the admixture of illyrians, goths, celts etc
No i know their were people their i am not that silly sile.But the people their would not have been bosnians,croatians,nor serbs,the slavs from diffrent area migrated into balkans an assimulated the small proportion of the indigenous people an brang their culture..look at kosova why only late when slav migrated came did they claim kosova? only in bulgarian empire is when slavs pushed into kosova look maps how small serbia was,So my question who were their on the plains? why not take it early.it was clearly inhabbited by indigenous eb1 this is why serbs have eb1 also
 
Are you serious...........do you actually think that when the slavs entered croatia, slovenia, bosnia and Montenegro that the land was empty of people.......it was a desert with ZERO people ?

I thought you where smarter than that.

the slavs did not even replace 50% of the populace that was in old Illyricum..............besides, the celts, goths and others had already absorbed illyrian tribes before the slavs arrived. The slavs just absorbed the admixture of illyrians, goths, celts etc
slavs came in i think 4 or 3 waves an yes they did assimulate alot an i belive more than 50% of population not 50% follow thoses halopgroup sile an you can see the migrationsView attachment 7580
 
caucasus albania has no relation with modern albanian why are you posting propaganda?caucasus albania is a udi language is is not even related to albanian language anyway shape or form it is part of russian dilect your ancestors.I am biting my lip with propaganda you are posting.i think is time for me to educate you of the serbian people.do me favour look at gentics where caspian sea is,,follow that migration pattern into balkans,Your answer is clear.;)

You didn't read. Article wrote Dr Philip Curti, he is American but his origin is Albanian. It is not propaganda but scientific article.
 
You didn't read. Article wrote Dr Philip Curti, he is American but his origin is Albanian. It is not propaganda but scientific article.
I have no need to read as i have read other articals aplausing it as no way in any relation to albanian of today..an caucasus albania an ghegs are totally diffrent people gentics.language,everything maybe you should look for apollonia in caucasus albania because it is in the old maps.:wary2: their
 
Are you serious...........do you actually think that when the slavs entered croatia, slovenia, bosnia and Montenegro that the land was empty of people.......it was a desert with ZERO people ?

I thought you where smarter than that.

the slavs did not even replace 50% of the populace that was in old Illyricum..............besides, the celts, goths and others had already absorbed illyrian tribes before the slavs arrived. The slavs just absorbed the admixture of illyrians, goths, celts etc
slav2.jpg
says it all
 
It is interesting hypothesis, although Albanian is IE Satem and probably R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype bearers were main speakers of proto Albanian, probably with J2.

I think Colhidians are linked with Greeks, not Albanians, but anyway, it's sure interesting assumption.

There are more authors who claim that area of origin of Albanians is Caucasus, and among them are Albanians.

One of them is Dr Philip Curti, according his surname he is Albanian by origin.

Curti writes:

AIOCWZT.png


Curti considers that Albanians came from eastern Caucasus. But he gives complicated assumption that Albanians came in three waves, two of them moving from Caucasus over area around Black sea to South Europe and further to northern Albania, in two different routs, and in both cases refer to Gheg Albanians and one of them from Caucasus through Anatolia to South of Albania, what refer to Tosk Albanians. Curti speaks about 1500-800 years BC.

KAqabt6.png


Curti highlights differences in physical characteristics between Ghegs and Tosks, and classify them in different types. According him Armenians are metrically like Albanians, especially the Gheg, in most antropological characteristics:

s83O9hO.png


The author concludes for origin of Albanian there is evidence which supports Caucasian nidus:

UnxZary.png
Sabars and Avars

The name "Serb" is non-Slavic in origin and more likely than not original Serbs were overlords of the Slavs. The name 'Serb' designates not only the population in the invaders of Balkan peninsula but of Lusatia as well. Lusatia, a region in Eastern Germany is inhabited by a nation the Germans call the Wends from which the Greeks derived the word Venedi, alb. vendi 'homeland, country' hence an Illyrian not Slavic name. The name "Serb" is e neologism from the ancient homeland of Serbs, Sarmantia an ancient district between the Vistula River and the Caspian Sea, occupied by the Sarmatians [Lat. Sarmatae] from the 3d cent. B.C. through the 2d cent. A.D. The term is vague and is also used to refer to the territory along the Danube and across the Carpathians where the Sarmatians were later driven by the Huns. The Sarmatians, who until c.200 B.C. lived E of the Don River, spoke an Indo-Iranian language and were a nomadic pastoral people related to the Scythians (see Scythia), whom they displaced in the Don region. The main divisions were the Rhoxolani, the Iazyges, and the Alans or Alani. They came into conflict with the Romans but later allied themselves with Rome, acting as buffers against the Germans. They were scattered or assimilated with the Germans by the 3d cent. A.D.The common Indo European phonetic mutation allowed -m > -mb > -b from Sarmoi > Serboi.
The name of Sarmatians derived from PIE Root / lemma: ker-6 and k̂er- : 'dark colour; dirt, etc'.
ahd. horo, Gen. horawes, mhd. hor, hurwe `ordure, smut' (*kr̥-u-); ags. horh, Gen. horwes, ahd. horg `dirty, filthy' (*kr̥-k-u̯-o); aisl. horr m. ` nasal mucus, snot, smut'; ags. hrot m. ` snot ', ahd. hroz ds., asächs. hrottag `snotty'; ahd. ruoz, rouz, mhd. ruoz, ruost, asächs. hrot `smut'; ags. hrum m. `smut', asächs. hrum, mhd. PN Rum-olt;
Maybe Sarmoi > Serboi, Srb from lit. sarma `gray, white weasel' [common PIE b > w mutation].
Both root names Hrv (Croat) and Srb (Serb) are interchangeable: s > h, b > v phonetic mutations. Clearly Srb (Serb) is the origin of the latter Hrv (Croat).
lit. šir̃vas `gray, greyish-blue' (*k̂r̥-u̯o-s), šir̃mas ds. (*k̂r̥-mo-s), lett. sirms `gray' (compare ai. śyā-má- `black, dark' besides śyā-vá- ds.); lit. šir̃vis `hare'; in addition lit. šarmà f. ` hoarfrost', lett. sarma, serma ds., lit. šarmuõ, šermuõ `ermine' :)ahd. harmo, ven.-illyr.carmō); šarmuonỹs m. `weasel', with ablaut ostlit. širmuonė̃lis ds., lett. sermulis m. `ermine';
The Indo European root/lemma Root / lemma: ker-6 and k̂er- : 'dark colour; dirt, etc' could be a collective name for Sarmatea 'dark people'.
Yet the origin of the name Sarmat could be an Indo European interpretation of Sabar (Sabat) common PIE b > mb > m phonetic mutation].
Serbs and Croats would retain their sumptuous Turkic names in contrast to their Slav mercenaries called Slovenians. Bosnia was populated by an Illyrian tribe called Besoi which eventually drowned under the Slavic tide. Montenegro would be called by Serbs as Crna Gora 'black mountain'. The true Slavs who defeated the Avars in the Balkans were actually Slovenians. They would impose their language on defeated Serbs, Montenegrins, Croats and Macedonian Avars. Bulgar Avars would suffer the same identity crises while Huns managed to survive in their tiny kingdom.


The origin of the name Serb from an Indo European root seems incredible. Serbian toponyms in their homeland in Caucasus are often remote to Slavic tongues.

Azerbaijan Ser-Abad : Serboi Greek reading.

Both names Serboi earlier Sabar and Hrvat (Croat) earlier Havar, Avar seem to have originated in the shores of the Caspian Sea. The forefathers of Serbs and Croats were not Indo European but Caucasian.
The names of Asian tribes Sabar and Kavar (*Havar) Avar derived from the same root [common shift b > v, also allophones s/ h].

Serbs (*Sabar) and Croats (Hrvat) were Avar tribes which Magyar sources essentially call Kabar and Kavar.

The remnant of Sabar, Avar excellent horsemanship in Turkish language was stamped in the cognate: tr. süvari ' cavalier, cavalry, cavalryman, chevalier, mounted troops, man'. Clearly the origin of Serbs and Croats is not Indo European. Although they adopted the language of their slaves, the Sabar and Avar overlords preserved their original name. Franks, a Germanic tribe who had conquered Gaul.It has been understood that the Avar Khanate had had influence particularly over the Islamic tribes. It has been known that as a result of the precautions taken by Avar people, the first Slav groups settled in the Balkans in an essential manner. There are some indicators that showed that this Turkish tribe established domination over the southern and the eastern Slavs for a long time and most of the Slavic tribes were totally defeated by the Avar people.

The Slavic groups were under the domination of German Goths until the 4th century and then, they were under the domination of Turks subject to the Hun Empire. The history of the Slavic communities has turned into nearly "a part of the Turkish history" from that date on. The disperse of crowded Slavic groups towards various Eastern Europe regions and the Balkans took place mostly in the period of Avar people. These large-scaled migrations were arranged and implied by the Avar government. Therefore, the Avar government led them to undertake the agricultural works in order to yield the harvest and crops that were needed by the Avar Khanate and the performance of border forefront services at the same time.

Therefore, various Slavic tribes were directed towards today's Czechoslovakia and the banks of Elbe River, the coasts of Dalmatia and the Balkans. In the years of 750, it was cited that there was some Slav people that were called as "Avar" within the environs ofAthens. In the same periods, the names of the leaders that led the Croatian people to the Adriatic coasts were listed as follows: Kiıliik, Lobel (Alp-el?), Kösenci (Koşuncu), Buga, Tugay. It has been alleged that there were some Avar beys that became Slavs who were the leaders of 9th Pannonia (Western Hungary) and Morva Slav groups. On the other hand, it has been declared that the German tribes abandoned their homelands in the Czech country as a result of the pressure of Avar leaders rather than Slav people that were so weak in respect of war capabilities.

It has also been stated that this situation was confirmed with the works related with Avar art that were found in the Eastern Hungary. Therefore, according to the statement of Bishop Syrian Johannes in the year of 584, "While the Slav people could not dare even to get out of the forests in the past, the Slavs got accustomed to war by means of the Avar people and they became the owners of gold, silver, and herds of horses. They were oriented towards migration in a systematic manner. Therefore, it has been understood that the ethnical map of today's Central and Eastern Europe was drawn by the Avar Khanate. The Avar groups that live in the Caucasus today are accepted as the descendants of them.

The original Serbs and Croats were Central Asian Sarmatian nomads who entered Europe with the Huns in the fourth century A.D. The Sarmatian Serbs settled in a land designated as White Serbia, in what is now Saxony and Western Poland. The Sarmatian Serbs,
adopted the language, and transferred their name to the Slavs. Byzantine sources report that some Serbs migrated southward in the seventh century A.D. and eventually settled in the lands that now make up southern Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, and Hercegovina. Rival chiefs, or zupani, vied to control the Serbs for five centuries after the migration. Zupan Vlastimir formed a Serbian principality under the Byzantines around 850, and the Serbs soon converted to Eastern-rite Christianity. The Serbs had two political centers in the eleventh century: Zeta, in the mountains of present-day
Montenegro, and Raska, located in modern southwestern Serbia.
The proto-Serbs were part of the Caucasian Race much like the Georgians, Mingrelians, Lezghians, Ingush, and spoke a language similar to these peoples. At some point in the history of the Serbs, this Old Serb language stood side by side with the Slavic language in White Serbia (Porphyrogenitus) and likely even in the first 300 years leading up to the formation of the Serb state on the Balkans in the 9th century. Even to this day, the Serb language has at least a third as many words in its vocabulary than other Slavic languages. This is because of the influence of Old Serb and Illyrian as well as Turkish on the Slavic language spoken by Serbs today EXPLAINS THE EB1 IN SERBS. Here is a list of Old Serb words which exist side by side with Slavic words in the modern Serb language.

he Serbs were mentioned by Plinius the Younger in the first century BC (69-75) as living on the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov as Serboi in his Geographica. In the 2nd century, Herodotus writes in his Persian Wars that Serbs (Serboi, Sirboi - Serboi, Sirboi) live behind the Caucasus, near the hinterland of the Black Sea. In the fourth century the Carpathians are mentioned as 'Serb mountains' by the Roman emperor Licinius.

In the Caucasus, the homeland of the Serbs, they left their traces around the river Volga (Araxes in Greek). In modern Georgian, that river is called "Rashki". This name was used by Balkan Serbs as a name for their first state and is found wherever the name Serb is found in clusters indicating settlements. It is often used to designate hydronyms and likely meant 'river' or 'water' in Old Serb.

The Serbs migrated in two directions from the Caucasus, northwest and northeast. Those who went northwest became overlords to the Slavs. There they established a mighty empire and became slavicized. Konstantine Porfirogenitus called this "White Serbia". Their descendants are known as Lusatian Serbs today and despite immense Germanization, there are still a few thousand left. These we will call 'White Serbs'.

The other branch moved northeast to the southern base of the Urals, settled there for a period of time and split into two. We will call them 'Volga Serbs'. One tribe moved west and eventually met up with the above mentioned White Serbs. The other moved east and went deep into Siberia and left its traces in the names of cities and towns along the coast of the Sea of Japan. They faded out with onslaught from the Mongols. These we will call 'Siberian Serbs'. It seems likely that Siberia was named after this Old Serb tribe.

It seems that the western branch of the Volga Serbs, upon their rendezvous with the White Serbs did not stay long. They must have found the White Serbs completely Slavicized by then (6th century). The descendants of these Slavicized white Serbs are today's Lusation Sorbs. This would explain why Lusatian Sorbs did not pick up the Caucasian words of the original Serb language while Balkan Serbs retained theirs. The western Volga branch of the Serbs must have left White Serbia immediately upon their own arrival, and according to Porfirogenitus, came to the Balkans (7th cent), invited by Heracleus, defeated the Avars and were given Macedonia to inhabit. There they took the already settled Slavs (who began arriving in the 5th and 6th cents) under their control and became Slavicized much as the White Serbs.
Serbs: living among the ancient peoples of the Black Sea
The first mention of the Serbs ('Serboi') in history locates them in the Caucasus among the Dinaric peoples of Ibero-caucasian linguistic stock.
Here are a few of the earsliest quotations from well known ancient geographers and historians:


Strabon (63 - 19. god. stare ere)
"...the rivier Ksant is called Srbika by the natives."
( Strabonis rerum geographicarum libri septendicini, Basileza 1571 s. 763)

Plinius (69-75 AD)
"... beside the Cimerians live Meotics, Valians Serbs (Serboi), Zingians, Psesians."
("On Nature" "A Cimmerio accolunt Meadici, Vali, Serbi, Zingi, Psesii - Plinius Ceacilius Secundus Historia naturalis, VI, c. 7 & 19 Leipzig 1975)

Claudius Ptolomei (150 AD) - geographer
" ... between the Keraunian mountains and the river Pa, live the Orineians, Valians and Serbs."
(Claudius Ptolomaius, Geographica... V, s. 9)




 
View attachment 7579

you can see clearly where albanian migration is from an the slavs,,no more rubbish garrick.

Seriously? You're going to conclude what was 2000 years ago, from 21st century distributions? Is this... WTH....



No i know their were people their i am not that silly sile.But the people their would not have been bosnians,croatians,nor serbs,the slavs from diffrent area migrated into balkans an assimulated the small proportion of the indigenous people an brang their culture..look at kosova why only late when slav migrated came did they claim kosova? only in bulgarian empire is when slavs pushed into kosova look maps how small serbia was,So my question who were their on the plains? why not take it early.it was clearly inhabbited by indigenous eb1 this is why serbs have eb1 also

No, it wasn't, historical sources claim different, and especially for Kosovo we have IBD pointing to 1500 years ago.
So stop murmuring about Kosovo, and using internet threads for political propaganda. Damn...
 
A theory on Avars and their relations to the Serbs
Alex Petrovic

The Caucasian Avars who conquered the Balkans have given Serbia, Crna Gora, and Croatia the names each respectively bears today. In the Lesghian-Avar language, the Balkan Crna Gora carries the same toponym of the land they left behind in the Caucasus: also called Crna Gora, now part of Daghestan. In the Lesghian-Avar language: Srbi means "people." Also, in the Lesghian-Avar language: Albania is the land they called their homeland, neighboring Armenia, once known as Ancient Caucasian Albania, dating back 2,000 years ago, but still found in old maps. Yet the name Albania derived from the Illyrian tribe Albanoi. The Illyrian mercenaries took part in the campaign of Alexander the Great in India. Some of these tribes settled in the Caucasus region while others continued the journey towards India. Illyrian foot-soldiers created military stations for the Macedonian army for a safe return. The very name Albania has no cognates in Caucasian languages so it is not a native eponym. The name Albanoi derives from Indo European Root / lemma: albho-: 'white'.

Obviously the ancestors of the Serbs, Montenegrins, and Croats were Avar tribes (not to be confused with Mongol tribes near Siberia) from the Caucasus, however the indigenous people such as the Thracians, Dacians, Illyrians, and Slav retainers, were fussed with them, giving mixed signals to us all today. Serbs and Croats think they are pure Slavs, which they are not. The Montenegrins think they are Polabs who have been christianized by Rome, which is not true.
The Avars were totally assimilated by the Thracians and Slavs, and their vestiges live on in Serbs, Montenegrins and Croats so does their spirit. The Council of Chalcedon changed many things for them but they continued to exist as part of the Khazar Confederacy (Khazar is a Turkic word for Georgians or Circassians) always keeping Byzantine ties rather than Latin ones. They paid great heed to their dead and had 26 tribes, including clans, like the Montenegrins.

Most of the Balkans had been part of the Roman Empire since the first century AD. When, in the fourth century, the decision was taken to divide the empire between Rome and Constantinople, the area was home to a mix of peoples such as Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians, Romans, Dacians and many others. There were no Slavs though. The Slavonic-speaking peoples began to migrate to the Balkans only in the early sixth century. At first they came as raiders, but by the seventh century they began to settle.

Some contend that the Slavs came from the land between the Danube and the Carpathian mountains. Others believe that they came from the Caucasus and that they were ruled by an Iranian-derived elite. What can be said with certainty is that, unlike the earlier raiding Goths and Huns who left no lasting traces in the Balkans, the Slavs came to stay. By the 580s they were a powerful force, although they appear often to have fought as subordinates to the more powerful Avars, who lived roughly in the area of modern Hungary.

The constant warfare of this period led to the depopulation of large areas into which the Slavs were to move. These first Slavs cannot be identified as Serbs, Croats or Bulgarians -- they were 'undifferentiated' Sllavs. These three named tribes were now to arrive by diverse routes. The Croats migrated from the kingdom they had established during their migrations in southern Poland. The Serbs moved to the Balkans after briefly settling in areas that now fall within the Czech lands. It is also possible that there is a connection with those areas of northeastern Germany, around Bautzen, where the Sorbs, a Slavonic-speaking community, still live.

Before these migrations, in the second century AD, Greek geographers wrote of an Iranian tribe called the Serbi or Serboi living on the River Don. Professor John Fine, one of the foremost historians of the region, writes that if the first Serbs and Croats, like the Turkic Bulgars, were not Slavs but Iranian, this is 'not important in the long run since the Iranians were a small minority in a population of Slavs. They quickly became assimilated by the Slavs and the resulting society was clearly Slavic (despite the non-Slavic origin of its ruling class).' Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, the Byzantine emperor and historian, writing in the mid-tenth century notes that some of the Serbs or Servloi were originally given land around Salonika at Serbia by the Emperor Heraclius (610-41) but that they had not stayed there, had migrated north of the Danube and had then turned southwards again.

While the origins of the Serbs and Croats are still shrouded in mystery it is clear that from the very beginning these two distinct but close tribes moved one beside the other. Their histories have always been entwined. How close the tribes were is attested by the fact that they spoke, and still speak, virtually the same language. The Slav spread through the Balkans carried on until about 800 when it not only stopped but, in certain areas such as Greece and Albania, appears to have been reversed.

Tim Juddah


"Most scholars believe either that both Serbs and Croats were Slavic tribes with Iranian castes, or that they were originally Iranian tribes which had acquired Slavic subjects... What is clear is that the Serbs and Croats had a similar and connected history from the earliest of times..."N. Malcolm.

The Slavs settled in Bosnia (as well as Serbia, Croatia, and Montenegro) in the late sixth and early seventh centuries. They appeared in small tribal units but were drawn from a single Slavic confederation-the Slaveni. Thus the Bosnians come from the same Slavic base as today's Serbs and Croats. In the second quarter of the seventh century, the Croatians (who were probably of Iranian origin) invaded and asserted their overlordship over the Slavs (Slaveni) in Croatia and parts of Bosnia. In regions to the south and east ofBosnia, the Serbs (also probably Iranians) came to predominate over the Slavs there."
John V. A. Fine
There are also countless Serb toponyms (too many to list) found all over Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Czech and Slovak Republics, Poland, Germany to attest to the migration of Serbs from the Caucasus to northern Europe and to their present location in the Balkans.

At first we find the Serb name in the above mentioned locations in the Caucasus. Then we find the Serb name breaking into two directions with one branch shifting NORTHWEST out of the Caucasus region into southern Russia towards the Ukraine and Central Europe. We find the Serb name moving across the Ukraine and along the Carpathians into Central Europe. It is appropriate to note that the in the third century Roman emperor Licinius referred to the Carpathians as 'Serb mountains'.

We find another row of Serb toponyms moving northeast from the Caucasus towards the base of the Ural mountains. At the base of the Ural mountains we find a cluster of Serb toponyms. We can conclude that this branch of Serbs settled there for a period of time. Then we notice Serb toponyms moving in two directions. One going eastbound deep into Asia moving along the Kama river and the other going WESTBOUND following the river Volga into Ukraine Poland. It is likely that this divergent movement happened because of a disagreement between the Serb tribal leaders of this tribe of 'Ural Serbs'. This faction which moved WESTBOUND eventually met up with the first group of Serbs which immediately left the Caucasus for Central Europe, as the direction of toponyms shows. This land eventually became to be called 'White Serbia' by Konstantine Porphyrogenitus.

We can conclude based on the distance of toponyms one from the other that they are the most dense in the modern Czech Republic, Western Ukraine, and southern Poland as well as Eastern Germany. This may have been the size of the 'White Serbia' which Porphyrogenitus spoke of. It would have been even by modern standards a large European nation. South of it was 'White Croatia' as we can tell by Croatian toponyms in Slovak and Hungarian lands.
Having migrated from the southern Caucasus to the north, as we can see by the shift in the toponyms northward, we see other Serb toponyms moving eastward towards the Ural mountains and the Kama river and we even find Serb toponyms along Russia's border with China. It would appear that when the Serbs left the Caucasus region they split into two groups moving in separate directions. One moved into the southern Ukraine and along the Carpathians into Northern Europe the other eastbound to the base of the Ural mountains. We see a string of Serb toponyms from there moving westbound along the Volga and another string on the same longitude moving eastbound deep into Siberia. Along the coast of the Sea of Japan there are two towns named 'Serbia' and two other towns named after the Serb toponym Rashka (a name the Serbs took to them wherever they went; it is distinctly Serb and not Slavic, it might have meant river, this would explain the many hydronyms derived from 'Rash' in Poland, Germany and Russia where Old Serbs settled).

Serb toponyms aren't thrown around Europe and Asia randomly, they are often in rows and lines one after the other, moving in a particular direction:

1. northwest from the Caucasus along present the Carpathians into Central Europe.
2. northeast from the Caucasus to the Urals into Siberia.
3. from the Urals westbound to Central Europe.


It is wisest to conclude that diverging Serb toponyms mark the path various Serb tribes took while they were migrating from the Caucasus to Europe and Asia. Interestingly the migrations are not in accordance to Slavic migrations, thus implying that Serbs were overlords to the Slavs and migrated and existed together with the Slavs.

Here are the locations of Serb toponyms in alphabetical order:
Sarbai 58N 49E 152 498
Sarbaktuy 51N 116E 557 1827
Sarbala 53N 87E 232 761
Sarbala 60N 43E 111 364
Sarbalin 54N 74E 103 337
Sarbalyk 55N 76E 110 360
Sarbayevo 55N 45E 249 816
Sarbay 51N 57E 412 1351
Sarbay 52N 56E 182 597
Sarbay 53N 51E 198 649
Sarbay 54N 56E 145 475
Sarbay 58N 49E 152 498
Sarba 55N 76E 110 360
Sarbiya 52N 57E 696 2283
Serbilovo 56N 40E 157 515
Serbinka 51N 43E 181 593
Serbinka 52N 36E 246 807
Serbino-Vedenyapina 51N 43E 175 574
Serbino-Vedenyapino 51N 43E 175 574
Serbinovka 54N 73E 128 419
Serbinovskiy 49N 40E 183 600
Serbino 53N 40E 160 524
Serbino 58N 28E 55 180
Serbin 45N 38E 16 52
Serboyan 55N 83E 155 508
Serbilovo 56N 40E 157 515
Serbinka 51N 43E 181 593
Serbinka 52N 36E 246 807
Serbino-Vedenyapina 51N 43E 175 574
Serbino-Vedenyapino 51N 43E 175 574
Serbinovka 54N 73E 128 419
Serbinovskiy 49N 40E 183 600
Serbino 53N 40E 160 524
Serbino 58N 28E 55 180
Serbin 45N 38E 16 52
Serbiya 51N 37E 209 685
Serbiya 52N 57E 696 2283
Serbiya 64N 142E 564 1850
Serbolovo 57N 30E 94 308
Sorbala 60N 43E 111 364
Sirbishina 57N 60E 218 715
Sirbishino 57N 60E 218 715
Srbce 49N 17E 328 1076
Srbce 49N 16E 397 1302
Srbce 50N 15E 194 636
Srbetsch 50N 13E 330 1082
Srbeˇ 50N 13E 330 1082
Srbice 49N 13E 487 1597
Srbice 49N 13E 433 1420
Srbice 49N 14E 495 1624
Srbice 50N 13E 207 679
Srbsko 49N 14E 270 885
Srbsko 50N 15E 317 1040
Srbská Kamenice 50N 14E 318 1043
Srbská 50N 15E 354 1161
Srby 49N 13E 407 1335
Srby 49N 12E 399 1309
Srby 50N 14E 426 1397
Srbín 49N 14E 439 1440
I HOPE YOU ENJOYED YOUR LESSON IN FACTS NOT FICTION,THIS WOULD ALL EXPLAIN THE MIGRATION PATTERNS OF SLAVS AN MIXING WITH THE INDIGENOUS BALKANS..
 
Seriously? You're going to conclude what was 2000 years ago, from 21st century distributions? Is this... WTH....Excuse me?im just trying to figure out the migrations of people into balkans,





No, it wasn't, historical sources claim different, and especially for Kosovo we have IBD pointing to 1500 years ago.
So stop murmuring about Kosovo, and using internet threads for political propaganda. Damn...
Im not using political propaganda i am pointing out their were people in present day kosova before the slavnic migration,,I am mearly pointing out possibilitys of the migrations into balkans that has offected the albanian laguage,I have sat back an had to read things that i dont agree with nor any albanians,So maybe you can read i mean no harm an it is in rights to explain this as it is not negitive nor racist or propaganda..do not be offended..so the CONCLUSION is serbian slavs migrated from caucasus to carpathian mountains then into present day serbia,bosnia,croatia montenegro.their is no doubt that slavnic language is satem an is related to indo iranian witch has taken offect of the albanian language.before the slav migration was albanian a cetum language? yes i belive it was.what i find interesting the word montenegro for slavs is related to Crna Gora" in Serbian, which means "black mountain.The albanian meaning for the area of montenegro is mal i zi.mal i zi is pure Indigenous. meaning black forrest in albanian. research mal i zi.I also want to conclude that mal i zi is messapian an pre dates any slav migration
 
Ukaj, do not despair because Albanian is not fully Latinized, otherwise it would be the same as the Romanian.

What we should understand, a big part of Balkans was romanized. Of course we can follow Jirecek line which divide Greek and Latin zone.

Romanization of Balkans started in 2 century BC. In 168 BC Romans conquered Illyria and they established the province Illyricum. Romans conquered the rest of Central Serbia in 75 BC establishing Moesia. Conquest of Dacia was completed by emperor Trajan in 106 AD when king Decibalus was defeated. From that time Dacia was a province of Roman Empire till 275 AD. From 2nd BC till 3rd century in the Balkans took place Romanization of people, in parts of Balkans which are kept by the Romans. People lost their language and culture and they adopt Latin. This applies to all who lived in the area, certainly the Dacians and Illyrians who according Wilkes dissapeared in Roman Empire. However Free Dacians have not fallen under Roman rule. Therefore tribes that maked free Dacans to some extent have been able to preserve their language.

Someone can see map of Roman Dacia and areas where lived Free Dacian tribes:


692px-Roman_province_of_Dacia_%28106_-_271_AD%29.svg.png


Carpi and some other tribes were beyond of Roman Dacia!

XNZozjM.jpg


cw8UQYd.jpg


And Carpi successfully resisted Romanization!

...
People who lived in Illyricum and Roman Dacia are Romanized, they lost their language and they spoke Latin.

Only Free Dacian could save their language, and today some authors claim Carpi and it is possible members of some others Free Dacian tribes, spoke Albanian. They spoke and they saved in extent in which it was possible receiving Latin, Balto-Slavic etc in some extent. Due to invasion of the Huns, tribe Carpi and it is possible some other tribes or parts of tribes, moved toward south of the Danube. They could pass Danube, and probably over today's Bulgaria and Macedonia they arrived to today's Albania. It is possible first settlement in Albania was area Mat and arrounding. It is important that Free Dacian tribes, in the first place Carpi, were able to preserve own languge in extent that it was possible.
gora.jpg

Hear is present day balkan slavs toponyms caucasus
 
No i know their were people their i am not that silly sile.But the people their would not have been bosnians,croatians,nor serbs,the slavs from diffrent area migrated into balkans an assimulated the small proportion of the indigenous people an brang their culture..look at kosova why only late when slav migrated came did they claim kosova? only in bulgarian empire is when slavs pushed into kosova look maps how small serbia was,So my question who were their on the plains? why not take it early.it was clearly inhabbited by indigenous eb1 this is why serbs have eb1 also

so , since celts , goths and others absorbed the illyrian tribes before the slavs got there , does it not make sense that the slavs absorbed the illyrians via the absorption of the celts , goths etc..............the slavs did not absorb the illyrians directly , but indirectly.................still since 90% of Illyrian tribes where in modern montenegro, croatia, bosnia and slavonia it make logical sense that these people ( slavs) in these countries gain the bulk of the ancient illyrian admixture more so than the albanians.
 

so what, I do not care what or where the serbs came from..........all we know from Roman and Greek historians is that the serbs mixed with the thracian triballi tribe in Moesia
 
We can discuss about Albanian ulk and Slavic vlk, but they are very close words, no doubt.


Slavic *v treatment in Albanian:
*vьrsta "age, kin" > vërsë~vërcë "age"
*rovъkъ "ditch" > ravgë "mountain path"
*byvolъ "buffalo > buall "buffalo"
*volkove "nets" > vallkua~vallkue "fish trap"
*v is dropped intervocally to form ua~ue diphthongs.


Slavic treatment in Albanian:
*obъpьnъkъ "sandal, shoe" > opingë "sandal"
*trьsъ "grape, stalk" > trishe "sprout, shooting"
*vьrsta "age, kin" > vërsë~vërcë "age"
Accented/stressed is treated most commonly as i, and more sparsely as ë.


Slavic *l treatment in Albanian:
*byvolъ "buffalo > buall "buffalo"
*lojь "liquid, fat" > llohë "rain and snow, moisture"
*lyko "bast" > llukë "lime tree"
*kyla "hernia" > kulë "hernia"
In most cases, Slav *l gives Alb *ll.


Slavic *k treatment in Albanian:
*borika "fir, pine" > borigë "pine, splinter"
*kъrhat "to cough" > gërhas "to snore"
*korъda "sword" > kordhë "sword"
*kost "bone, scull" > koc "bone, scull"
The different treatments (k~g) can be explained by different periods of borrowing.


Were ulk~ujk of Slavic *vьlkъ origin, it would be reflected as **villk or **vëllk. Since that's not the case, and the transition from PIE *wĺ̥kʷos > PAlb *(w)ulka > ujk seems to be very regular and straightforward according to the sound change laws governing the Albanian language, there's no reason to assume a loan.
 
so , since celts , goths and others absorbed the illyrian tribes before the slavs got there , does it not make sense that the slavs absorbed the illyrians via the absorption of the celts , goths etc..............the slavs did not absorb the illyrians directly , but indirectly.................still since 90% of Illyrian tribes where in modern montenegro, croatia, bosnia and slavonia it make logical sense that these people ( slavs) in these countries gain the bulk of the ancient illyrian admixture more so than the albanians.
no not really because not all illyrian were assimulated.an yes balk of illyrians were in mal i zi.I dont think they have bulk illyrian as thoses areas of bosnia an croatia were fully assimulated.dont forget their were also many tribes that fled south from the slavnic migration,,
 
We can discuss about Albanian ulk and Slavic vlk, but they are very close words, no doubt.


Slavic *v treatment in Albanian:
*vьrsta "age, kin" > vërsë~vërcë "age"
*rovъkъ "ditch" > ravgë "mountain path"
*byvolъ "buffalo > buall "buffalo"
*volkove "nets" > vallkua~vallkue "fish trap"
*v is dropped intervocally to form ua~ue diphthongs.


Slavic treatment in Albanian:
*obъpьnъkъ "sandal, shoe" > opingë "sandal"
*trьsъ "grape, stalk" > trishe "sprout, shooting"
*vьrsta "age, kin" > vërsë~vërcë "age"
Accented/stressed is treated most commonly as i, and more sparsely as ë.


Slavic *l treatment in Albanian:
*byvolъ "buffalo > buall "buffalo"
*lojь "liquid, fat" > llohë "rain and snow, moisture"
*lyko "bast" > llukë "lime tree"
*kyla "hernia" > kulë "hernia"
In most cases, Slav *l gives Alb *ll.


Slavic *k treatment in Albanian:
*borika "fir, pine" > borigë "pine, splinter"
*kъrhat "to cough" > gërhas "to snore"
*korъda "sword" > kordhë "sword"
*kost "bone, scull" > koc "bone, scull"
The different treatments (k~g) can be explained by different periods of borrowing.


Were ulk~ujk of Slavic *vьlkъ origin, it would be reflected as **villk or **vëllk. Since that's not the case, and the transition from PIE *wĺ̥kʷos > PAlb *(w)ulka > ujk seems to be very regular and straightforward according to the sound change laws governing the Albanian language, there's no reason to assume a loan.
 

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