Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 14 of 31 FirstFirst ... 4121314151624 ... LastLast
Results 326 to 350 of 754

Thread: Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

  1. #326
    Banned
    Join Date
    15-08-14
    Posts
    77

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a2a

    Country: Albania





    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Are you aware of the Slavic origin of the toponyms you placed now at list half if not all of those cultures you mentioned;
    Podgorie,Dunavec
    or the surrounding villages there Moglice,Dobercan,Peshtan,Osoje etc despite changing the names
    What should i ask is when did Albanians settled there,when this people become Albanians,how come so obvious Slavic toponyms in territory where you want to trace your origin from? your origin is certainly not from those cultures.

    Dimwit, those cultures were named after the modern toponyms.

  2. #327
    Banned
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,070


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Niš is not capital of Serbia,you don't even know the capital cities of your neighboring countries;
    The etymology of the original name Naissos ("city of the nymphs") is derived from a mythical creature of Greek mythology - Naiad (from the Greek νάειν, "to flow," and νᾶμα, "running water") which was the nymph of freshwater streams rivers and lakes. Niš (Serbian Cyrillic: Ниш, pronounced is a possible location of Nysa, a mythical place in Greek mythology where the young god Dionysus was raised.
    This place is also a birth place to a great emperor of Thraco-Illyrian origin Constantine the Great.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Can you make the etymology of actual capital of Serbia and the second biggest city of Serbia Nis, pls?
    Of course i know. Belgrade the capital and Nish the second biggest city of Serbia.

  3. #328
    Regular Member Milan's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-15
    Posts
    358


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Of course i know. Belgrade the capital and Nish the second biggest city of Serbia.
    Then i don't know why you asking about etymology of the city it is derrived from Bel=White and Grad=fortress,city,enclosure etc thus in present day language the meaning will be white city,you have present day Berat in south-central Albania that was once called Belgrad with the same etymology.
    All this suggest strong Slavic presence in the area in medieval times,how they become Albanian i don't even want to mention the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians were doing on the Christians or non-Albanians at some period of time,should i mention the atrocities of Ali Pasha on that region destruction of the very prosperous Vlach city of Moskopolje which is remembered to this day,people had no other choice there as they were unarmed against an armed groups.
    In the region you live the very south of Albania were living the Vajunites or Vojnitsi meaning "soldiers" the territory they was later named after them as Vagenetia. Many toponyms in the region of northern Epirus (modern-day southern Albania) still have names received by the name of this tribe.
    The name of Vanegetia survived until at least the 13th century.Similar toponyms like Viyanite or Viyantije survived until the 16th century when they were replaced with the name Delvinë which also became an official name of the Ottoman sanjak of Delvina.The territory around the river Aoös (or Vojuša/Vjosë, today in southern Albania) was probably also named after this tribe,Shushice(river) Bistrice(river) Selenice,Novosele,Bogove,Leskovik further south Konitsa might be in Greek side near mount Smolikas etc
    Last edited by Milan; 02-02-16 at 21:38.

  4. #329
    Regular Member Milan's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-15
    Posts
    358


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    Dimwit, those cultures were named after the modern toponyms.
    There is no Albanian language continuity in that region it's very obvious,therefore i doubt you can trace your origin from there.
    Last edited by Milan; 02-02-16 at 23:55.

  5. #330
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    02-02-16
    Posts
    3


    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry for the delayed reply, I've been very busy lately, so I can't give as much time to reply in full in here, but I'll try to summarize my points:

    - In my opinion, Illyria (Roman Illyria, I should specify) did not speak a homogenous language. Therefore, to say Illyrian was a language (singular) is wrong, and it would be better to speak of Illyrian languagues. One of these Paleo-Balkan languages was the ancestor of Albanian, for sure, but which one it was is impaired on the one hand by the sparse material of the Paleo-Balkan languages, and on the other hand, by the large amounts of loanwords in Albanian (by far the most are from Latin, but there's also a share of ancient Greek, migration-period-era Germanic, medieval Slavic and most recently, Ottoman Turkish), which means the corpus of native (Proto-)Albanian words is relatively small.

    For the ancient Paleo-Balkan languages, I would say this:
    - Liburnian in my opinion, for sure, was a Centum language aligned with the Italic languages (the sound shift *bh-, *dh-, *gh- to *f-, f-, h- is attested).
    - I agree that the development *bh > *b, *dh > *d, and *gh > *g does not rule out the ancestry of Albanian, but it also doesn't narrow it down, for such a development occurs also in Celtic, Germanic and Balto-Slavic.
    - the idea that *d- in ancient names represents a dental fricative (reflex of palatovelars in Albanian) has a merit, in my opinion.
    - the *n > *r sound shift (a type of rhotacism) does only occur in Tosk Albanian, not in Gheg Albanian, and it must be a relatively late development, because clearly Latin loanwords are subject to it (femina > femër, vinum > verë). In my opinion, the *n > *r rhotacism can't be a feature of original Proto-Albanian.

    That's all for the moment. :)
    It's absolutely logical that Albanian have 75-95% Loanwords, because it's a very old Languages, of the Albanian would be younger, they would not say today "per mu" like te italians, spanic and french "per me" "por mi " "pour moi", and its logical that this words was adopted from the latin language.
    The "Illyrians" was from today northern Greece till Slovenia, a big area, of course they had not one same structure of speaking. If you just watch 2 villages, you will find differences in her language.. And it could be very simpel like to the germans what before just means "free people"...then maybe it makes sens that "i lir" "the free" the basic of the word "illirians" is .....where not dominated the languaged or "ethnicity"/ "tribe"...And maybe is "illyrians" a word from outside "illyria".

    I say, forget the "names", and just look the element.....but some people who speak about albanian languages, did it because it's called "albanian", not because of the language itself, which is the a sociological DNS

  6. #331
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    02-02-16
    Posts
    3


    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    I think i did answer your question but you must not have read right. Pal Engjelli,castriota.marin barleti.they all ghegs an all who left albania.Your question is answered right their vlla..You said basicly the people of arbreshe an arbantie mind you ARBON<<GHEG are all tosks.who speak tosk..so now my question what happen to the gheg dilect of arbreshe an arbanite?Im very albanian my surname is more albanian than albanian vlla it is proto albanian infact.DEM.Im doing what albanians should do speak the truth.The problem is that albanians can not agree on 1 thing.i am telling you know as i said proto albanians come from northern albania we did border with romanian at one point.an our language was influenced by latina an greek.The reason why im not albanian is because im not tosk like most of use hear an you dont want to hea anything what a gheg speaks.I am sorry i make you mad but you dont agree with what i say because of land issues..clearly you you disagree with me because i am talking about gheg,an you cant answer my questions at all but be negitive because i am speaking of albanian gheg who have a right that was lost but the arigance of tosk albanians,,as my father said tosks are arrigant.an one last thing i reallydont care if people dont think im albanian infact makes me lough.my name isnt armet or mehmet.its pure shqypni



    Its very suspect what you speak, no joke, its trange, because tosk is a dialect, did really people speak or feal in and about "tosk and "geg" like you? where you come from? name of village?....im very wunder about what you say....but when you say that you father thinks in this structure, then i understand you. But you should know, that this is veryyyyyy.....strange, i really ask myself if you or high or somethink like that....

  7. #332
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Alket View Post
    It's absolutely logical that Albanian have 75-95% Loanwords, because it's a very old Languages, of the Albanian would be younger, they would not say today "per mu" like te italians, spanic and french "per me" "por mi " "pour moi", and its logical that this words was adopted from the latin language.
    The "Illyrians" was from today northern Greece till Slovenia, a big area, of course they had not one same structure of speaking. If you just watch 2 villages, you will find differences in her language.. And it could be very simpel like to the germans what before just means "free people"...then maybe it makes sens that "i lir" "the free" the basic of the word "illirians" is .....where not dominated the languaged or "ethnicity"/ "tribe"...And maybe is "illyrians" a word from outside "illyria".
    In my opinion, there's a twofold problem of linking Albanian "lirë" (free) with the name "Illyria". The first issue is that the ancient name is consistently written with an "y" (which to me suggests that it was probably transmitted through Greek), and not with an "i". I'd also like to point out the geminated "ll". Granted, modern (20th century, mind you) orthography uses the digraph "ll" to represent the "dark" (belted) "l", but in my opinion its rather clear that this is a relatively recent development in Albanian, for it also occurs in Latin loanwords. The other issue is that you have a rather similar word in Latin ("liber") and the Romance languages (e.g. French "libre"). So, in my opinion, "lirë" probably is a Latin loanword.

  8. #333
    LAB
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    In my opinion, there's a twofold problem of linking Albanian "lirë" (free) with the name "Illyria". The first issue is that the ancient name is consistently written with an "y" (which to me suggests that it was probably transmitted through Greek), and not with an "i". I'd also like to point out the geminated "ll". Granted, modern (20th century, mind you) orthography uses the digraph "ll" to represent the "dark" (belted) "l", but in my opinion its rather clear that this is a relatively recent development in Albanian, for it also occurs in Latin loanwords. The other issue is that you have a rather similar word in Latin ("liber") and the Romance languages (e.g. French "libre"). So, in my opinion, "lirë" probably is a Latin loanword.

    there are 2 theories that the word derives either from i-lire=free+ jan=are or yll=star + jan=are ,
    i beileve so the 2nd theory YLL(star)+JAN(are)=ylljan,yllijan,yllirjan,ylliria n,illyrian, meaning people of stars.
    and i beleive this theory because the same meaning we have about the word hellenes. (YLL,ELL)

  9. #334
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    there are people on this thread that keep thinking that modern is the same as what ancient was ..................they will never learn.

    Languages continually evolve
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  10. #335
    Regular Member Milan's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-15
    Posts
    358


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    In my opinion, there's a twofold problem of linking Albanian "lirë" (free) with the name "Illyria". The first issue is that the ancient name is consistently written with an "y" (which to me suggests that it was probably transmitted through Greek), and not with an "i". I'd also like to point out the geminated "ll". Granted, modern (20th century, mind you) orthography uses the digraph "ll" to represent the "dark" (belted) "l", but in my opinion its rather clear that this is a relatively recent development in Albanian, for it also occurs in Latin loanwords. The other issue is that you have a rather similar word in Latin ("liber") and the Romance languages (e.g. French "libre"). So, in my opinion, "lirë" probably is a Latin loanword.
    Agree they were called Iλλυριοί,Illyrioi,i have question for you Taranis on the etymology of their name;could their name be composed of Ancient Greek λύρα (lyra) a lyre whether the "Il" will be preffix,i don't know much about Greek preffixes but for example in Latin illūminātum, supine of illūminō ‎(“lighten, light up, show off”), from in + lūminō ‎(“light up”) Il is preffix,further etymology like this make sense to me is because the region where the Illyrians were living to this day the λύρα (lyra) is being played and it's epic singers are compared to Homer Aoidos by many scholars,the Lyra has stong culture presence in Montenegro,Bosnia parts of Croatia,Serbia and Northern Albania.

    A "Guslar" playing to a group of people most probably Herzegovina or Montenegro.

  11. #336
    Banned
    Join Date
    15-08-14
    Posts
    77

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a2a

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    There is no Albanian language continuity in that region it's very obvious,therefore i doubt you can trace your origin from there.
    Susaj glup ko kurac, you shouldn't participate in such threads when you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. Watch from the sidelines, dimwit.

  12. #337
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    02-02-16
    Posts
    3


    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Agree they were called Iλλ…ριοί,Illyrioi,i have question for you Taranis on the etymology of their name;could their name be composed of Ancient Greek λύρα (lyra) a lyre whether the "Il" will be preffix,i don't know much about Greek preffixes but for example in Latin illūminātum, supine of illūminō €Ž(€œlighten, light up, show off€), from in + lūminō €Ž(€œlight up€) Il is preffix,further etymology like this make sense to me is because the region where the Illyrians were living to this day the λύρα (lyra) is being played and it's epic singers are compared to Homer Aoidos by many scholars,the Lyra has stong culture presence in Montenegro,Bosnia parts of Croatia,Serbia and Northern Albania.

    A "Guslar" playing to a group of people most probably Herzegovina or Montenegro.

    There is a big Problem on the Balkan, 2 centurys of slawization and hellenization of the element which we know today "Albanian" and "Aromun", and in common the "nationalisation" of the Balkan Population.


    The Typical Lahuta (serb Gusla) and the Epic Songs are from the element of the "albanians" and her Highland Culture. Its absolutely normal that also people play in Montenegro, some big Albanian tribe are slavizated and call herself today Montenegrins. The mostly old MOntenegrons, know still the Name of her albanian tribe.


    In the Viyalet of Kosovo, the albanian Played Lahuta so much and sang her epic songs about heroizem, belive and love, what led always to rebellions, and the sultan had need to ban the Lahute for 200 years from the whole Viyalet.

  13. #338
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Agree they were called Iλλυριοί,Illyrioi,i have question for you Taranis on the etymology of their name
    I would say that any etymology is speculative. However, I would like to make two points regarding the name "Illyria". The first issue is that Classical Greek "y" represents an earlier /u/ sound (in modern Greek, the letter is pronounced as /i/). This gives us a stem "illur". The other issue is the geminated "ll", which to me suggests that you have an earlier different consonant (an "s", for example). So the original stem would have been maybe *islur- (certainly not *ilir-).

  14. #339
    Regular Member Milan's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-15
    Posts
    358


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Alket View Post
    There is a big Problem on the Balkan, 2 centurys of slawization and hellenization of the element which we know today "Albanian" and "Aromun", and in common the "nationalisation" of the Balkan Population.


    The Typical Lahuta (serb Gusla) and the Epic Songs are from the element of the "albanians" and her Highland Culture. Its absolutely normal that also people play in Montenegro, some big Albanian tribe are slavizated and call herself today Montenegrins. The mostly old MOntenegrons, know still the Name of her albanian tribe.


    In the Viyalet of Kosovo, the albanian Played Lahuta so much and sang her epic songs about heroizem, belive and love, what led always to rebellions, and the sultan had need to ban the Lahute for 200 years from the whole Viyalet.
    I asked a question to the admin who as well know many things about linguistics,in my post i haven't said where origins of the instrument are or something similar i just listed the regions where is played as you can see the word Lyra come from Greek yet again i need to deal with some phantom culture that exist i guess only in your mindset,it is interesting enough that all the time you talk about some nationalism but you preach it mostly as can be seen by previous comments of your compatriots,you want to tell me people as far Lika in Croatia are Albanians? or people in Bosnia are Albanians,Herzegovina,Montenegro?
    Generation of scholars Milman Parry,Albert Lord working on the Homeric question oral poetry was going in Bosnia,Serbia,Montenegro or the book for example Guslar and Aoidos: Traditional Register in South Slavic and Homeric Epic John Miles Foley and many more... or when the Mexican philolog Roberto Salinas Price working on Homeric question try to locate Troy on the Dalmatian coast and even said that Illiad and Odysey were originaly written in Slavic,no one make big deal of this but was sharply criticize by then Yugoslav scholars.
    In Slavic is derived from the Proto-Slavic verb *gǫsti, "to play (an instrument)", cf. Old Church Slavonic гѫсти thus Gusle,In my region we don't play much of a Gusle but Gajda (bagpipe) more instead yet we don't claim we gave this to Irish,you even use a Latin word from Lute-Lahuta,you share this with others ok?quick link from wikipedia gave me the region Malësi e Madhe District in north Albania where this is played where population is traditionaly mixed from Serbs and Albanians yet you are saying in Kosovo was banned by Sultan how was not banned in Montenegro?weird ban enough when they were allies.
    Malësi e Madhe District from where all Montenegrins,most Croats,Serbs,Bosnians have their roots and their Gusle is coming
    Last edited by Milan; 06-02-16 at 21:25.

  15. #340
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    2 members found this post helpful.
    There's a few issues I wanted to comment on here:

    Quote Originally Posted by LAB View Post
    homer said ''hellenes learned writting and building etc from pelasgians''
    pelasgians illyrians macedonians etc were called barbarians from ancient greek historians. right taranis?
    You may be confusing Homer and Herodotus, and the Pelasgians and the Phoenicians, right there. The ancient Greeks learned the alphabet from the Phoenicians, which is something that they themselves were actually aware of. As Herodotus says in his Histories:

    (Book 5, chapter 58)


    "Now the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus, and to whom the Gephyraei belonged, introduced into Greece upon their arrival a great variety of arts, among the rest that of writing, whereof the Greeks till then had, as I think, been ignorant. And originally they shaped their letters exactly like all the other Phoenicians, but afterwards, in course of time, they changed by degrees their language, and together with it the form likewise of their characters."


    "Οἱ δὲ Φοίνικες οὗτοι οἱ σὺν Κάδμῳ ἀπικόμενοι, τῶν ἦσαν οἱ Γεφυραῖοι, ἄλλα τε πολλὰ οἰκήσαντες ταύτην τὴν χώρην ἐσήγαγον διδασκάλια ἐς τοὺς Ἕλληνας καὶ δὴ καὶ γράμματα, οὐκ ἐόντα πρὶν Ἕλλησι ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκέειν, πρῶτα μὲν τοῖσι καὶ ἅπαντες χρέωνται Φοίνικες· μετὰ δὲ χρόνου προβαίνοντος ἅμα τῇ φωνῇ μετέβαλλον καὶ τὸν ῥυθμὸν τῶν γραμμάτων."

    Another writing system (Linear B) existed previously to write Greek, but that writing system became extinct with the Bronze Age collapse (which resulted in the so-called "Greek Dark Ages"). Indeed, as per the above quote, Herodotus seems to be unaware that Linear B had even existed.

    again we can find pelasgians fighting on the side of the trojans against hellenes in ILIADA(if that war ever happened)
    The "Iliad" derives from the name "Ilion" (Ιλιον), which is an alternate name for the city of Troy. In any case, in the Greek dark ages, the name would have been pronounced as "Wilion" (Ϝιλιον), and the /w/ sound of Greek was (largely) lost by the time that the Greeks adapted the alphabet from the Phoenicians. It should be noted that a clearly related name, Wiluša,is found in Hittite sources. As you can see, there is no relationship whatsoever with Illyria (you do have a clear link with Bronze Age Anatolia, however!).

    barbarian for hellenes= PEOPLE WHO SPEAK DIFFERENT LANGUAGE .

    so what language do you personally think those people were using?

    of course we don't know absolutely certain about how and when things happened in the past.
    but nobody can argue me about the meaning of the words of lemnos steele
    ( i can translate it for you if you're so curious mate, WORD BY WORD and not with hypothetical theories)
    Well, all I am seeing is a language clearly related with Etruscan. By the way, Lemnos is not anywhere near Illyria or the Adriatic, but in the Aegaean (as a matter of fact, it happens to be close to the archaeological site of Troy/Ilion). So, I don't see how this would be related with this dicussion. You are of course free to start a separate discussion about Lemnian and/or Etruscan in a different thread, but I do think this does not belong into this discussion (which is about the possible relationship between the Illyrian language(s) and modern Albanian).

  16. #341
    LAB
    Guest


    [QUOTE=Taranis;475263]There's a few issues I wanted to comment on here:





    homer lived around 850-1100BC according to greek historians.
    the hellenes ''adopted'' their alphabet on 800BC
    herodotus lived on 4 CBE
    i'm not confusing anything. do the maths


    as for homer's works most scholars agree that underwent a process of standartisation and refinement out of older material beginning the time of the new alphabet adoption
    an important role played athenian tyrant hipparchus who reformed the recitation of homeric poetry at the panathenaic festival 500BC
    at this reform was involved the production of a canonical written text. (translation?! who knows)


    yes it is clearly related with etruscan. they were writing from right to left with the same alphabet.
    some of the words of lemnos steele
    lem,steele-albanian=english
    ZI- ZI=grief,black
    MARAZ- MARAZ=anguish
    MAF- MAF=black veil
    ZI APK- ZI HAPE=gief you gave(opened)
    FEIS A FIS - FISeVE A FIS=to the kindred oh! kinsman
    SI FAi- SI FAJ=for what fault
    TAF -TAFT=throne
    AR- AR=gold
    FAMA-FAMA=fame
    TIKH-THIK=knife
    O AR AI- O I ART AI= oh! of gold he was
    LOT-LOT=tear
    etc,etc,etc

    yeah right. i'm off topic.
    most of the posts in this thread talking about albanians from kaukasus are not off topic.

    it is a quite interesting thread, although i haven't seen if anyone mentionted anything about the illyrian gods names and if they're related with albanian language
    common words can change easily but gods names not






  17. #342
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    [QUOTE=LAB;475267]
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post

    it is a quite interesting thread, although i haven't seen if anyone mentionted anything about the illyrian gods names and if they're related with albanian language
    common words can change easily but gods names not





    I have as illyrian Gods

    Vidasus and Thana .................both from illyrian Pannonia ....................what can you tell me of these?

    from modern Croatia .....there are these Illyrian Gods .........Bind and Latra and Medaur

  18. #343
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LAB View Post
    homer lived around 850-1100BC according to greek historians.
    the hellenes ''adopted'' their alphabet on 800BC
    herodotus lived on 4 CBE
    i'm not confusing anything. do the maths
    Well, from an archaeological perspective it can't be disputed that there was a (circa) 250-300 year period during which the Greek people were iliterate, and that the Greeks adapted their writing system from the Phoenicians (a Semitic people, who spoke a language closely related with Hebrew).

    as for homer's works most scholars agree that underwent a process of standartisation and refinement out of older material beginning the time of the new alphabet adoption
    an important role played athenian tyrant hipparchus who reformed the recitation of homeric poetry at the panathenaic festival 500BC
    at this reform was involved the production of a canonical written text. (translation?! who knows)
    Sorry, but Homer's Iliad is clearly a fictional work. It seems to be inspired by historical events (that took place during the Bronze Age Collapse), but its a fictional work.

    yes it is clearly related with etruscan. they were writing from right to left with the same alphabet.
    some of the words of lemnos steele
    lem,steele-albanian=english
    ZI- ZI=grief,black
    MARAZ- MARAZ=anguish
    MAF- MAF=black veil
    ZI APK- ZI HAPE=gief you gave(opened)
    FEIS A FIS - FISeVE A FIS=to the kindred oh! kinsman
    SI FAi- SI FAJ=for what fault
    TAF -TAFT=throne
    AR- AR=gold
    FAMA-FAMA=fame
    TIKH-THIK=knife
    O AR AI- O I ART AI= oh! of gold he was
    LOT-LOT=tear
    etc,etc,etc
    I suspect that you should read Raymond Brown's debellatio of Lemnian-as-Albanian, because you're making the same errors. Notably that you read Digamma Ϝ (W!) as Latin "f", Lambda Λ as "p" and that you variably read Sigma Σ and Zeta Ζ as "s" or "z". How can you claim that you can translate the Lemnos stele "word by word" if you can't even properly read the Greek alphabet?

    http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Eteo...nianTrans.html

    You might also want to check out the other "translations", notably the "Turkic" one (because that is on the same level of ridiculous as reading it as Albanian).

    yeah right. i'm off topic.
    most of the posts in this thread talking about albanians from kaukasus are not off topic.
    Well, I have addressed Caucasian Albania earlier. I will agree with Garrick, however, that the hypothesis that the Albanians migrated from somewhere else has some merit, as it is a logical alternative if one says that (Proto-)Albanian was not native to the Balkans in Roman times. Wether it is actually accurate is another question.

  19. #344
    LAB
    Guest


    From the book "The Illyrians" by Aleksandar Stipcevic

    Enji - He was the god of fire & war. He's equivalent in Greek & roman mythology might be Ares/Mars. He's equivalent in the Norse mythology is Thor. It is from this god that our week day e enjte (Thursday) comes from. This is interesting since Thursday in Germanic languages, is named after Thor/Thur, the god of war. Obviously, Enji must've been important to our people since we named a week day after him!

    Prema - She was the goddess of fertility/birth. Her equivalent in the Greek mythology is Demeter. She is also honored with a week-day; e premte (friday). This is also interesting since the Germanic people have also named Friday after their fertility goddess, freya; examples are Freitag in German, Fredag in Scandinavian languages and Friday in the English language.

    Anzotica - This was a goddess that in terms of belief, seems to have been restricted to the Illyrian tribe of the Liburnae. She's the Illyrian equivalent of Aphrodite/Venus! I believe that the middle of her name, Anzotica, is clearly connected with our word zot, god!

    Ica/Ika - Another goddess of the Illyrians. I'm not quite sure what this goddess stood for. And could it be that her etymology is related to our word ika or ikje (flee or flight)?

    Bindus - The god of water, the equivalent of Poseidon or Neptune. This god was especially worshipped by the Illyrians of the Iapod tribe (Japod?t).

    Vidasus - Like Bindus, this Illyrian god was also the protector of water-sources. Apparently, he was always in company with the goddess of hunting (our equivalent to Artemis), Thana.

    Thana - She was the goddess of hunting. I suspect that the etymology of her name is connected to our word tharje, i.e. withering, death. Afterall, hunting means death (of animals), so it wouldn't be surprising if that's where her name originates from. This, in turn, can be connected to the Greek word thanatos, death.

    Dualos - The god/goddess of whine. It's clearly connected to our word dejur - to be drunk! This in turn, is of an old IE-root, since the word is also present in old Gothic, dwals, which has the same meaning as dejur!

    Surd - The god of wheather. I'm just wildly speculating here, but wheather/wind equals to noice, and sometimes bad noice. Noice of high level in turn can make us deaf; could it be that it's from here that our word shurdh?r (deaf) stems from? We often use the term 'mos m? shurdho' when our ears hurts from an example, screaming ... ?? Or is it a Latin loan-word?


    p.s
    the word bind has the same meaning in albanian as it has in english language. so we call bindus the person who knows to bind.
    bindus-he who binds
    mashtrus-he who deceits
    ETC
    bth the word ''BINDUS'' can be found carved in a cave somewhere in south albania today.

    vidasus maybe derives from the word 'vija=the line' 'vi=line' the word vi it's used for artificial waterways



  20. #345
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Well, from an archaeological perspective it can't be disputed that there was a (circa) 250-300 year period during which the Greek people were iliterate, and that the Greeks adapted their writing system from the Phoenicians (a Semitic people, who spoke a language closely related with Hebrew).


    .
    where the phoenicians semetic at that time ?...............we know Anatolia with the Hatti, Hittite, Hurrian and Luwain languages where all non-semetic languages

  21. #346
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by LAB View Post
    From the book "The Illyrians" by Aleksandar Stipcevic



    Bindus - The god of water, the equivalent of Poseidon or Neptune. This god was especially worshipped by the Illyrians of the Iapod tribe (Japod?t).

    Vidasus - Like Bindus, this Illyrian god was also the protector of water-sources. Apparently, he was always in company with the goddess of hunting (our equivalent to Artemis), Thana.

    Thana - She was the goddess of hunting. I suspect that the etymology of her name is connected to our word tharje, i.e. withering, death. Afterall, hunting means death (of animals), so it wouldn't be surprising if that's where her name originates from. This, in turn, can be connected to the Greek word thanatos, death.



    p.s
    the word bind has the same meaning in albanian as it has in english language. so we call bindus the person who knows to bind.
    bindus-he who binds
    mashtrus-he who deceits
    ETC
    bth the word ''BINDUS'' can be found carved in a cave somewhere in south albania today.

    vidasus maybe derives from the word 'vija=the line' 'vi=line' the word vi it's used for artificial waterways


    iapod or japod is illyrian tribe in northern croatia

    as I said with the others they are from northern illyrian tribes from pannonia ( which is know modern Hungary )

    the findings are the oldest and always from the north

  22. #347
    LAB
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Well, from an archaeological perspective it can't be disputed that there was a (circa) 250-300 year period during which the Greek people were iliterate, and that the Greeks adapted their writing system from the Phoenicians (a Semitic people, who spoke a language closely related with Hebrew).



    Sorry, but Homer's Iliad is clearly a fictional work. It seems to be inspired by historical events (that took place during the Bronze Age Collapse), but its a fictional work.



    I suspect that you should read Raymond Brown's debellatio of Lemnian-as-Albanian, because you're making the same errors. Notably that you read Digamma Ϝ (W!) as Latin "f", Lambda Λ as "p" and that you variably read Sigma Σ and Zeta Ζ as "s" or "z". How can you claim that you can translate the Lemnos stele "word by word" if you can't even properly read the Greek alphabet?


    You might also want to check out the other "translations", notably the "Turkic" one (because that is on the same level of ridiculous as reading it as Albanian).



    Well, I have addressed Caucasian Albania earlier. I will agree with Garrick, however, that the hypothesis that the Albanians migrated from somewhere else has some merit, as it is a logical alternative if one says that (Proto-)Albanian was not native to the Balkans in Roman times. Wether it is actually accurate is another question.

    as i said above the greek alphabet adopted by greeks on 8 CBE
    they estimate lemnos steele around 6CBE.
    i don't think that THAT TIME it took only 200 years to be spreaded in an island too far from athens.

    i gave you a sample of the translation word by word of the steele.as you can see some words are the same or almost the same in albanian.
    you look only the alphabet and you're loosing the meaning.
    when someone reads the translation of lemnos steele in english through albanian language as raymond brown did it seems to have many errors.
    the same thing happens even today. if you take a text in greek f.e and tranlate it in english word by word it won't be the same b/c you'll loose the meaning.
    the first words are not ''grief and grief'' but
    ''grief AH! grief'' or ''grief is grief''
    after that he writes
    ZI ARKH?? it's ZI APK on the steele. where did he found the zi arkh? FFS!!
    i think raymond brown is ridiculus. and who the H is raymond brown?

    the letter 'A' in albanian language today it's either an interjection (A I ZIU UNE=ah! grief i am) or it meens ''IS'' in gheg dialekt.
    anyway i won't accept from someone who has not an idea about albanian language to judge if it's ridiculus or not.
    you should do the same b/c neither you have an idea about albanian. you only see alphabets like that time people had schools and all of them where well educated.


    p.s SILE only that you had to say? i gave you some illyrian gods and some possible etymological explanation through albanian language.
    do the same in slavic language or in bosnian or in croatian (if they're not the same) and let's see which language can approach them better.

  23. #348
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by LAB View Post

    p.s SILE only that you had to say? i gave you some illyrian gods and some possible etymological explanation through albanian language.
    do the same in slavic language or in bosnian or in croatian (if they're not the same) and let's see which language can approach them better.
    You fail to realise like all the rest, that Illyrian is neither albanian nor slav ...........the people are extinct.

    Do you realise the illyrian where first absorbed in celtic society , then later Roman society, then later gothic society .................all these are before any albanian or slav .

    Albanians and slavs cannot claim any identity to an extinct people called Illyrians............

  24. #349
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by LAB View Post
    as i said above the greek alphabet adopted by greeks on 8 CBE
    they estimate lemnos steele around 6CBE.
    i don't think that THAT TIME it took only 200 years to be spreaded in an island too far from athens.

    i gave you a sample of the translation word by word of the steele.as you can see some words are the same or almost the same in albanian.
    you look only the alphabet and you're loosing the meaning.
    when someone reads the translation of lemnos steele in english through albanian language as raymond brown did it seems to have many errors.
    the same thing happens even today. if you take a text in greek f.e and tranlate it in english word by word it won't be the same b/c you'll loose the meaning.
    the first words are not ''grief and grief'' but
    ''grief AH! grief'' or ''grief is grief''
    after that he writes
    ZI ARKH?? it's ZI APK on the steele. where did he found the zi arkh? FFS!!
    i think raymond brown is ridiculus. and who the H is raymond brown?

    the letter 'A' in albanian language today it's either an interjection (A I ZIU UNE=ah! grief i am) or it meens ''IS'' in gheg dialekt.
    anyway i won't accept from someone who has not an idea about albanian language to judge if it's ridiculus or not.
    you should do the same b/c neither you have an idea about albanian. you only see alphabets like that time people had schools and all of them where well educated.
    As you said yourself, the Lemnos stelae is estimated to be from the 6th century BC. You're making a number of leaps there that I would say every linguist will agree are completely unfounded: first, that you ad-hoc assume the language in the Lemnos Stelae must be Albanian, second that you assume that Albanian would be unchanged for a time period of some 2600 years. Given that we have languages that are attested across an even longer period, its very clear that languages change substantially across the time. Greek in particular has the longest attested history of any Indo-European language, and another good example of a language with a very long history is Ancient Egyptian - both show substantial development across the milennia. I don't have to go that far, if I look at my own mother tongue, German, if I compare the German of one Walter von der Vogelweide (medieval German poet) or the German of Martin Luther with modern German, there's a considerable differences and development that took place. You can do the same for English if you compare modern English with that of Shakespeare's works or the Beowulf epic, its clear that English has evolved considerably in the meantime. Even the English of America's founding fathers sounded very different from contemporary American English - we know that in particular because Benjamin Franklin in his day invented a phonetic alphabet. In summary, there is no good reason to assume that (Proto-)Albanian in the 6th century BC would be anywhere similar to modern Albanian. If you look at how Latin loanwords in Albanian are shifted, for example Lat. "argentum" > Alb. "argjend" (by the way, you actually 'read' the word "ar" in the Lemnos stelae, which is actually a Latin loanword - it is derived from Latin "aurum"!), its very clear that ancient Albanian would have been very different. Also, why should we expect Albanian to be found in the Aegaean, far away from Albania (and how does this even relate with Illyria?? - in my opinion, it is not related at all, unless of course you invoke the Illyro-Pelasgian fantasies out of the Albanian-Nationalist playbook)?


    The next issue is, again, that you evidently cannot read Greek. What you are doing is read letters that look like Latin letters (to be fair, Latin "F" actually derives ultimately from the Greek Digamma (Ϝ), but the latter actually represented /w/, not /f/). And you're reading variably the letter Sigma (Σ) as "s" or "z" as you see fit (the owner of the website I sent you the article of, who analyses someone who makes a very similar claim to your own, observes similar arbitrary moves there, too).


    What you are doing, verily, is not 'decipher' the Lemnos stelae, but what you're doing is picking random words - even ripping them apart (bear in mind that the Lemnos stelae uses signs akin to ":" to mark the boundaries between words) because they look similar to words in (modern!) Albanian, there for it should be read as "ziazi" (ζιαζι) and not "zi a zi" as you do. Likewise, it should be read "sialχweiz" (σιαλψϝειζ) not "zi apk...". You have no good reason for doing what you're doing.


    Why - if you consider all these issues (each one by themselves would be more than sufficient to bring your case apart) - should we take your (or anybody else's) "translation" of the Lemnos stelae as Albanian serious? I certainly do not. From the perspective of research, it is obviously a predicament that we do not have the extensive ancient evidence for Albanian as we have for other languages (e.g. Greek), but that fact does not give anybody the license for charlatanry or thinly-veiled nationalist fantasies.

  25. #350
    LAB
    Guest


    -SILE
    yes i agree illyrians are extinct. both slavs and albanians can claim their descendancy from them for the reason that illyria was a tribe including both countries.
    but what we're doing here is an approachment to the words those people were using.
    as you saw their gods names can be explained through albanian language. and it would wise for you to study a little bit albanian language before you make conclusions.
    i've no idea about their explanation in slavic. if someone has something similar in other languages it would be great to post it here.
    i've read somewhere that some of their words(not gods names) are related to romanian language. but i've no clue about romanian so i can't judge.


    -TARANIS
    i'll say to you what i've said to SILE. before you make conclusions study some albanian first. :)
    the funny thing about albanian-illyrian-pelasgian fantasies is that those theories first developed 200-300 years ago and guess what. NOT by albanians, but from linguists from france,germany,austria etc. albanians woke up only after the fall of communism.
    i agree that some parts of translation of the steele don't fit even for me that i'm not a linguist. f.e the translation of the ''th'' and ''h''
    but despite those parts of the lemnos steele translation the theory of A-I-P is not based only there that's why in albanians eyes it's a theory that could stand.
    these are some ''homeriK''(ancient greek better) words, with their meaning in modern greek and modern albanian
    M.ALB. -HOMERIK - M-GREEK - ENGL.
    are,ara - ARURA - horafi - field
    bashke - VASK - vadizo - march
    dera - THIRA - porta - door
    deti - THETI-S - thalassa - sea
    dru - DRIS,DRITI- ksilo - wood
    dhe - IDHE - ke (και) - and
    ene - ENIMI - endyma - garment
    erret - EREVOS - skotos - dark
    ethe - ETHIR - piretos - fever
    flas - FLIO - omilo - talk
    frym - FRIMAO - anapneo - breath
    hedh - HEO - rihno - throw
    iki - IKO - fevgo - i leave
    kal - KELIS TOS - alogo,ippos - horse
    korr - KIRO - therizo - harvest
    krye - KRITHEN - kefali - head
    lehem - LEHO - gienieme - birth
    lepur - LEPORIS - lagos - rabbit
    lesh - LASIOS - mallia - hair
    loz -LIZO - pezo - play
    lutem - LITOME - parakalo - i pray
    marr - MAR PTO - perno - take
    marre - MARGOS - mourlos - lunatic,nuts
    mend,mendoj - MENDOHEM - medhome,skeftomai - i think
    mi - MIS - pontiki - mouse
    ne (neve) - NOI - emis - we
    udh- UDHOS - odos -road,street
    vane - VAN - pigan - they went
    zien - ZEI - vrazi - boil
    ETC ETC ETC


    and here you have the etymological explanations of the ''greek'' mythology (i doubt about that b/c they were mentioned from homer so they're pre-hellenic)
    even though their explanation from greek and ancient greek language are just RUBBISH. for many of them they don't even have an explanation. (artemis,hades etc)


    EREBUS- symbolizes darkness, you can find the root from the word ERRET wich means dark in albanian.
    URANUS- symbolizes the sky, in modern greek it's exactly the same word (ΟΥΡΑΝΟΣ, look at that!! words should change!!!) you can find the root from here I-VRAN-OS, means the place of clouds.
    ATHENA- the goddess of wisdom and inspiration you can find the root in albanian here E THENA which means wise word, the primary root is from the ancient god of egypt THOT
    thot in modern albanian means speak,say (un them, ai thot, ato thone,etc)
    NEMESIS- the spirit of divine, you can find the root in albanian here NE-MES which means in half, equal pieces
    HADES- the god of underworld, the root in albanian from HA=EAT + DES=DIE
    ARTEMIS- the goddess of hunting and wildland, the root in albanian from ART=ART + MISH=MEAT
    DEMETER- the goddess of harvest and of earth, the root in albanian here DHE= LAND,EARTH + MITER=WOMB (mother earth in few words)
    APHRODITE- goddess of beaty,love,desire, the root here, AFER=NEAR,CLOSE + DITA=DAY
    HERA- goddess of wind. the root from ERA=WIND
    ZEUS- god of sky,weather,thunder roots from ZOT=GOD + DHEU=THE EARTH ''Zot i dhEUSit''
    RHEA- daughter of GAIA (=earth) and URANUS (=sky) the root here RE=CLOUDS


    i can write about all of them but i don't have to proove anything since you can't speak albanian or greek at least.
    and before someone replies about the greek explanations let me say that i've studied in athens and lived there many years so i know everything about the language.and definetely i can say that greek explanations are wrong.WITHOUT MEANING


    apart from those explanations from mythology and ancient greek words there are many more things to connect albanian language with pelasgian. it's quite big to say that, and i'm not an expert but so many coincidences and ALL OF THEM WRONG? oh yeah b/c we came from kaukasus 100 years ago,i forgot

Page 14 of 31 FirstFirst ... 4121314151624 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •