Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

[IAMMESO]

I know that this is not the right place but can someone translate the slyrics?

Per ata qe (s)'jane

Sa letra shkrova, pa adres ku t'i dergoj
Sa shume dite kaluan, sa shume mall e lote qe s'pushojn
I gjall a i vdekur, asgje me une nuk di
Por brenda meje ti, ende frym merr cdo dite
Rrefen nje nene, rrefen dhe nje grua e nje femij
O sa shume po lutem, edhe une po lutem tani
Per ata qe s'jane, te humbur dikun ne pafund
Rrefen edhe kjo kenge, pa forc qe te beje me shume

Asgje nuk kerkoj, ky ankth te me leshoj
Jam lodhur ne pritje, por nuk mund te heq dor
Veq vendin ta di, se ku prehesh ti
Kurr dhembje nuk do te me pushoj
Ne fund dhe une, do ndihem e lire

Asgje s'ka kuptim, as kjo pritje qe me shkatrroj
Dhembjen se ndalojn, as kto vargje qe i kendoj
Gjithenje refuzoj, t'mendoj se ti me nuk je
E si une te besoj, kur peng i ksaj ndjenje kam mbet
Te gjitha m'i more, nga vetja ime ti
E une tani pres, te pakten veq dicka nga ti
E humbur ne jete, me shpresen se do vish
Bashk me shume te tjer, une ende besoj vertet

Te gjithve sa shume na mungojne.

................................

Ku ke ikur

Nuk e di se ku ke ikur
nuk e di se ku ke shku
Gjithkah une te kerkoj
zemren rende ma ke plagu

Me ke lene si gjethe e vyshkun
me ke lene ti ne vetmi
S'ke ku shkon, kot ke ikur
prap tek une ke me u kthy

Me plagose, me le ne dhe
lamtumire nuk me the
Si ke mundur, zemer e lige?
Keshtu nga ty nuk e kam prit

Cka te i beje zemres time
qe e mjera qane per ty?
Cka te i beje syve te mij
a te i verboj qe te dy?

............................

Ditët e mërzisë

Ditët e mërzise janë si shiu i vjeshtës
Gjethet e trishtimit binë qilimit t'heshtjesë
Fundit të liqenit i zgjojnë uturimat
Qjejve të braktisur ikin bubullimat.

Shkojnë e vijnë kujtimet e përplasin derën
Në kristale ngricash e shendrrojnë pranverën
Stina ik nga stina pelerin e zezë
Mbi orët e mia resh e resh krahnez.

Zogu i plagosur luhatet ne maje te plepit
Ëndrra e harruar nuk i qaset djepit
Nuk e do ninullën nuk e do as gjumin
Gjithqka ik përvajtshëm
Me valën e lumit

Ditët e mërzisë eh si vijnë papritur
Me një parambrëmje e qirinjë të fikur
E ndezin një mall e derdhin një lot
S'bashku me vetminë ngrejmë dollin e kotë!

.............................


Lamtumire

Lamtumire bjeshke e male
Lamtumire mrize e stane
Lamtumire o shpia e te parve
Lamtumire armet e shkreta
e ti nane e ti moter lamtumire
lamtumire per sa t'jete jeta

Lamtumire vendet e mia
Qe po zhdukeni dalengadale
Zhduket Buna nen nji koder
zhduket Drini nen nji mal

Kah njaj diell qe asht tuj flakue
Andej fill njitash do t veta
Lamtumire atdhe bekue
Lamtumire per sa t'jete jeta

Lamtumire ti nane shkreta
Qe me t’vshtira m’rrite kaq
N'kohe ma t'mire per ty une u treta
Kur pleqnia kerkon paqe

Edhe n’pyetsha rete mizore
Edhe n’pyetsha zogjte e detit
Se per ty moj toke arbnore
S’ka me m’fol ma kush mue t’shkretit
S’ka me m’fol ma kush mue t’shkretit

Nana e mbetme per se gjallit
Ka me m' kja
Kush e di ndoj dite
Ndersa motra dekun mallit
Kot ndojhere mu ka me m’prit

Lamtumire vendet e mia
Qe po zhdukeni dalengadale
Zhduket Buna nen nji koder
Zhduket Drini nen nji mal

Kah njaj diell qe asht tuj flakue
Andej fill njitash do t’veta
Lamtumire atdhe bekue
Lamtumire per sa t'jete jeta

Neser nadje ku jemi ne
Rrezja e diellit ka me t’ra
Kush e din sa uje e dhe
Mu prej teje kane me m’nda
Mu prej teje kane me m’nda

Edhe n’pyetsha rete mizore
Edhe n’pyetsha zogjte e detit
Se per ty moj toke arbnore
S’ka me m’fol ma kush mue t’shkretit
S’ka me m’fol ma kush mue t’shkretit

...................................

Moj e mira e ksaj mahalle

Moj e mira e ksaj mahalle
kur te pash, me mbushe me halle
Mos trokit me ato nalle
se mu zemren krejt ma kalle

Rrak-tak, rrak-tak-tak
vjen neper sokak
Rrak e tak, rrak e tak
mu m'dogje flak

Mi ke floket e gjata
synin si filxhani
Ma ke belin, hije t'ka kollani
Dhamt e shpesh, vetllen si gajtani
faqekuqe, mu m'dogji xhani

Rrak-tak, rrak-tak-tak
vjen neper sokak
Tik-tak, tik e tak
me ban zemra si sahat

Kthehu te shof njeher
moj ty te shitoft zana
se me shpove o sikur gjylpana
Ty tu kputshin moj ato nallana
se arshik o moj ty tu bana

Rrak-tak, rrak-tak-tak
hajde te rrim bashk
Rrak e tak, rrak-tak-tak
gjithmon te kam dasht

.............................


Lahutari

Ne nje maje mali, nje lahut jehon
nje breng the thelle malli, ne zemer me zgjon
Nga brenga e thelle, mali oshtin
lotet derdhen permbi tela, kenga pikellim

Lulet celin mbi debore
renkon kjo bjeshke si njeri
Malet ngrihen si kuror, si kuror
Lulet celin mbi debore,
fllad pranverore sjell veriu
Lote, kenge, rrjedhin malet o

Zogu i shqipes fluturon,
o c'fluturim!
Ne kenge, dhembje, lote, ai jeton

Sa kenge kemi ne
jo, s'ka vale as Drini i plakur
Sa lote derdhim ne
jo, s'ka uje as deti i kaltert

Bucet mali, sot, anembane
rreh ne zemren time, o, si kembane
Mali si zemra rreh, e zemra si mal
Kjo zemra ime rreh, o rreh si kembane
Kjo kenga ime zgjon, sjell malle

Kendo lahutar, ti kendo
ne lote e kenge gjithmon jeton

Ne nje maje mali kenga s'pushon

............................

Vendit Tim

Nje kenge zura te kendoj
fjalt e zemres ti deftoj
Per shume vite, kenge e lote
e dashuri qe nuk pushoj
E si mundem te harroj
zemra m'qahet kur kujtoj
Sa shum jete me kenge e lote
e dashuri qe nuk pushoj

Me gjak e lule, me zjarr e mall
te putha ty o Vendi im
ne cdo fush e are
Ne kenge e valle, ne gzim e vaj
te kisha prane o Vendi im
ne cdo frym e ne cdo fjal

Neper shekuj te mbuloft vetem dashuria
sa te kete toke e qjell ditet te qofshin veq gezim
Do te ruajm bese te na bekoj dhe Perendia
Ti gezojm kenget e lirise o Vendi im

Neper shekuj te mbuloft vetem dashuria
sa te kete toke e qjell ditet te qofshin veq gezim
Do te ruajm bese te na bekoj dhe Perendia
Me mall ne zemer gjithmone do te rroj
kjo dashuri per Vendim tim
IAMMESO nuk ndodhet në linjë

 

[LABERIA]

Then i don't know why you asking about etymology of the city it is derrived from Bel=White and Grad=fortress,city,enclosure etc thus in present day language the meaning will be white city,you have present day Berat in south-central Albania that was once called Belgrad with the same etymology.

The origin of Belgrade toponym is French, Italian, German?

All this suggest strong Slavic presence in the area in medieval times,how they become Albanian i don't even want to mention the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians were doing on the Christians or non-Albanians at some period of time,should i mention the atrocities of Ali Pasha on that region destruction of the very prosperous Vlach city of Moskopolje which is remembered to this day,people had no other choice there as they were unarmed against an armed groups.
In the region you live the very south of Albania were living the Vajunites or Vojnitsi meaning "soldiers" the territory they was later named after them as Vagenetia. Many toponyms in the region of northern Epirus (modern-day southern Albania) still have names received by the name of this tribe.
The name of Vanegetia survived until at least the 13th century.Similar toponyms like Viyanite or Viyantije survived until the 16th century when they were replaced with the name Delvinë which also became an official name of the Ottoman sanjak of Delvina.The territory around the river Aoös (or Vojuša/Vjosë, today in southern Albania) was probably also named after this tribe,Shushice(river) Bistrice(river) Selenice,Novosele,Bogove,Leskovik further south Konitsa might be in Greek side near mount Smolikas etc

You speak about many things here, but what draws my attention is the part underlined. You describe an South Albanian inhabitated by slavs. And according to you this slavs become Albanians around XIX century.
First, according to Wiki( which you like to quote incorrectly) slavs are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs
Slavs are the largest Indo-European ethno-linguistic group in Europe. They inhabit Central Europe, Eastern Europe, Southeast Europe, North Asia and Central Asia. Slavs speak Indo-European Slavic languages and share, to varying degrees, cultural traits and historical backgrounds.
Now, this slavs who become Albanians, what they were, Belarusians, Slovaks, Kashubians?
Second, can you quote an credible author(s) to illustrate your theory? Because this is something new for me. Latter we can discuss about toponyms, Voskopoja, Babuni, etc.

 

[Milan]

The origin of Belgrade toponym is French, Italian, German?


You speak about many things here, but what draws my attention is the part underlined. You describe an South Albanian inhabitated by slavs. And according to you this slavs become Albanians around XIX century.
First, according to Wiki( which you like to quote incorrectly) slavs are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs
Slavs are the largest Indo-European ethno-linguistic group in Europe. They inhabit Central Europe, Eastern Europe, Southeast Europe, North Asia and Central Asia. Slavs speak Indo-European Slavic languages and share, to varying degrees, cultural traits and historical backgrounds.
Now, this slavs who become Albanians, what they were, Belarusians, Slovaks, Kashubians?
Second, can you quote an credible author(s) to illustrate your theory? Because this is something new for me. Latter we can discuss about toponyms, Voskopoja, Babuni, etc.

Toponyms describe this and not me,that is not a theory,i said that because people do not vanish but most of the time just assimilate whether in Albanian,Bulgarian,Greek etc but in South Europe far i am aware was not such an identity you are looking for,I use the term Slavic because of the Slavic language origin of toponyms and don't want to sort people in nowadays identities or a medieval for that part as rule was switching overthere.

 

[LABERIA]

Toponyms describe this and not me,that is not a theory,i said that because people do not vanish but most of the time just assimilate whether in Albanian,Bulgarian,Greek etc but in South Europe far i am aware was not such an identity you are looking for,I use the term Slavic because of the Slavic language origin of toponyms and don't want to sort people in nowadays identities or a medieval for that part as rule was switching overthere.

No, no. It`s your personal theory, because you don`t bring here any serious reference to prove how this slavs become Albanian under the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians in the XIX century.
About the identity of the people in South Europe, this is not the right thread to discuss about this. But speaking about Albanians, i can say that the Albanian identity was consolidated long time before XIX century, before the Ottoman occupation.

BTW, Belgrade is from Bulgarian.

 

[Garrick]

Toponyms describe this and not me,that is not a theory,i said that because people do not vanish but most of the time just assimilate whether in Albanian,Bulgarian,Greek etc but in South Europe far i am aware was not such an identity you are looking for,I use the term Slavic because of the Slavic language origin of toponyms and don't want to sort people in nowadays identities or a medieval for that part as rule was switching overthere.

Scientific institute, Sofia published a book about Slavic settlements in Albania. According that in VI century Slavs inhabited Albania (at that time it is possible that Carps, according Romanian scientists, began to inhabit north Albania or later).

Славянское население в Албании, Афанасий СЕЛИЩЕВ

Slavic settlements in Albania, Afanasy Selishchev

This is only letter B (Б in Cyrillic) 120 villages/settlements, some of them have same names (it is possible that when I arranged some villages I erased, sorry)

Бабица

Бабонье

Бабонье

Бабунья

Баништа

Баня

Бацка

Бачка

Бачка

Бачова

Баштова

Башча

Бежани

Бела

Белабрада

Белай

Белград

Белева

Белина

Белица Горна Долна

Беличица

Белишова

Белова

Беловода

Белче

Белъград

Берагожда

Берагожда

Берат

Берзана

Беровичка

Бестрова

Бигори

Бистрица

Блата

Блаца

Блаче

Блград

Бле могиле

Бобичко

Боборава

Бобоштица, Бобошчица

Богдан

Богоница

Богуница

Богуница

Богшик

Бодриста

Бодришта

Бодришта

Божаник

Божаник

Божиград

Божица

Божица

Боз

Бозбрегас

Бозовец

Бозовец

Бозовци

Бойдан

Борич

Борова

Боровян

Борья, -ъя

Бояна

Бр г-Мати

Брагас

Брагожда

Брасник

Брасник

Братовица

Братовица

Братомир, Братомира

Брдети

Брдица

Брег, Брегу

Бредате

Брежани

Брежани

Бреждани

Брезня

Бресник

Брестеница

Брестова

Брештани

Брештяни

Брждан

Брзаня

Брзешта

Бриждан

Бриждан

Брлоц

Брод

Бродец

Бродосан

Броздовец

Бряништа

Бук

Буканик

Буково

Булгери

Булеца

Бурелеса

Бустрица

Бустрицъ, Бустрица

Бучкополе

Буштрица

Бърагожда Берагожда

(to be continued)

These villages/settlements are Slavic, if they Bulgarian or Serbian, it is difficult to define and it is not meaningful, because today's Serbian and Bulgarian nation in that time weren't defined, most correct to say is: Slavic.

Slavs in Bulgaria took Bulgarian name but they were not original Bulgars, central Asian tribes. Today's Bulgarians are descendants of Slavs and Tracians.

Bulgarian and Serbian language are similar, and when Bulgarian and Serb talking translator is not needed.

Please, put effort and determine which of these toponyms are more similar to today Bulgarian, which are more similar to today's Serbian.

 

[Milan]

Scientific institute, Sofia published a book about Slavic settlements in Albania.

These villages/settlements are Slavic, if they Bulgarian or Serbian, it is difficult to define and it is not meaningful, because today's Serbian and Bulgarian nation in that time weren't defined, most correct to say is: Slavic.

Slavs in Bulgaria took Bulgarian name but they were not original Bulgars, central Asian tribes. Today's Bulgarians are descendants of Slavs and Tracians.

Bulgarian and Serbian language are similar, and when Bulgarian and Serb talking translator is not needed.

Please, put effort and determine which of these toponyms are more similar to today Bulgarian, which are more similar to today's Serbian.

I have looked some of that long ago,thanks.
On your question to which present day language they are more close i will answer it with dialects,can't do it toponym by toponym.
The reformed present Bulgarian language is taken from Eastern Bulgarian dialects therefore far from this toponyms,likewise the reformed Serbo-Croatian or Serbian if you like is from Herzegovina somewhere.
By looking at them they are the most close to present day Upper/Lower Prespa/Ohrid dialects,then even more south Kastoria dialect this is perhaps the issue with the one that are in the south,also upper/lower Polog and Galicnik region.
Then going more north to Kosovo-Resava dialects which join this dialects,likewise with the Torlak dialects which show great similarities with the mention dialect.
This is not surprise since this dialects are much closer to the said toponyms,many with same name are to be found in the same places,it's up to you to decide to which present day language they are closer,it will depend which linguist you will ask from which country lol.
I can start separate thread about the same issue how "nations" or names were defined since middle ages to present day,what was the meaning trough ages then and now,so you can join,we can discuss more there about all this.

 

[Milan]

No, no. It`s your personal theory, because you don`t bring here any serious reference to prove how this slavs become Albanian under the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians in the XIX century.
About the identity of the people in South Europe, this is not the right thread to discuss about this. But speaking about Albanians, i can say that the Albanian identity was consolidated long time before XIX century, before the Ottoman occupation.

BTW, Belgrade is from Bulgarian.

There is many testimonies of various families from various periods of time,village by village,that moved from that region or change the language they spoke for some reason,however this one will go in nationalist discussion which i will not like to discuss,one is sure Albanians under Ottoman empire had advantage cause most of them were Muslims,then how many massive migrations of Christian people took place out of Ottoman empire,then later in disolution many Muslims went or were expelled in newly created Turkey,religion meant much more and even defined "ethnicity" in certain period of time,then you will say what about Albanians expelled from here or there etc i respect people choice whatever they feel to be or do,good for them,history is history.

 

[LABERIA]

There is many testimonies of various families from various periods of time,village by village,that moved from that region or change the language they spoke for some reason,however this one will go in nationalist discussion which i will not like to discuss,one is sure Albanians under Ottoman empire had advantage cause most of them were Muslims,then how many massive migrations of Christian people took place out of Ottoman empire,then later in disolution many Muslims went or were expelled in newly created Turkey,religion meant much more and even defined "ethnicity" in certain period of time,then you will say what about Albanians expelled from here or there etc i respect people choice whatever they feel to be or do,good for them,history is history.

All the above post is a lie and a tentative to derail the thread. I invite you to open a new thread about the Ottoman Empire and Balcans. I promise that i will help you in that thread. I will post primary sources and other documents, to explain to you and the others what happened in Balcan during the Ottoman occupation from the first day when turks set foot in our Peninsula until the last day.
But this is not part of our discussion.
Let me remind you that you pretend that South Albania was inhabitated by slavs and this slavs were asimimilated around XIX due to the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians. From some days i am asking you to prove your theory. I am repeating my question:
Do you have any credible source to prove your theory? Can you quote here credible documents or authors?

Please, can you answer to my questions?

 

[Milan]

All the above post is a lie and a tentative to derail the thread. I invite you to open a new thread about the Ottoman Empire and Balcans. I promise that i will help you in that thread. I will post primary sources and other documents, to explain to you and the others what happened in Balcan during the Ottoman occupation from the first day when turks set foot in our Peninsula until the last day.
But this is not part of our discussion.
Let me remind you that you pretend that South Albania was inhabitated by slavs and this slavs were asimimilated around XIX due to the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians. From some days i am asking you to prove your theory. I am repeating my question:
Do you have any credible source to prove your theory? Can you quote here credible documents or authors?

Please, can you answer to my questions?

You find yourself that 19th century somewhere which i never said but was speaking generaly middle ages to 19th century,mention the Bashi-bouzouks cause lately they were doing such things,I will show you couple proves,documents now and short history of Albania roughly until Ottoman rule,you will still claim is a "lie" anyway;
The first reference to a Slavic presence in Albania dates to 548, when the Slavs reached Epidamnos (Durrës), capturing fortresses in the city's vicinity. Slavic settlement near Epirus in southern Albania is mentioned in a note in a 10th-century manuscript of Strabo's Geographica, and near Durrës in a Middle Bulgarian translation of the Manasses Chronicle.
Europe in 814

According to toponymic evidence, Slavic settlement was concentrated in the region between the Vjosë and Devoll Rivers. Slavic placenames in this region suggest an eastern South Slavic (i.e. Bulgarian, as opposed to Serbo-Croatian) dialect.Bulgarian Slavs were the majority of the population in the area by the Early Middle Ages,and remained a significant group in central and southern Albania through the 15th century.In the 850s and 860s, Simeon I's First Bulgarian Empire included the Slavic-inhabited areas of what is today western Macedonia and southern Albania, which constituted the Kutmichevitsa administrative province. Kutmichevista included the cities of Ohrid, Glavinitsa (Ballsh), Belgrad (Berat) and Devoll (at the village of Zvezdë). The Bulgarian enlighteners Clement of Ohrid and Naum of Preslav are known to have worked in Kutmichevitsa, where according to the 11th-century account of Theophylact of Bulgaria, Clement had 3,500 students. Clement's and Naum's activity, as well as the consolidation of Bulgarian religious and state authority, helped establish the Bulgarian identity of this Slavic population.
Bulgarian empire

The Ballshi inscription is an epigraph from the time of the Bulgarian Prince (Knyaz) Boris I (852–889) testifying to the christianization of Bulgaria. The inscription was unearthed near Ballshi, Albania

From 989-995 to 1005, Albania was ruled Samuel of Bulgaria. Under Samuel's rule, the region was governed by Ivan Vladimir, his vassal and the husband of his daughter Kosara.

In 1018,Bulgaria was conquered by the Byzantine Empire. While the area was under Byzantine rule, a Bulgarian leader named Tihomir headed an uprising against the Byzantines near Drach (Durres); he was first supported but then killed by another insurgent, Peter Delyan, who proceeded to head the uprising and briefly ruled much of Albania, Macedonia, Serbia and western Bulgaria.

Ohrid Archbishopric under Byzantie empire

The area fell under Bulgarian rule again between 1231 and 1240, under Ivan Asen II, who "routed the Greek army ... and conquered the entire Greek, Albanian and Serbian land from Odrin [Edirne] to Drach (Durres)." John Kukuzelis, a famous medieval composer of Bulgarian descent, was born in the city in the late 13th century.During the Angevin period(1250–1350), the Slavic population lived mainly in the cities and villages near the sea, along the Drin River.

In the late 14th century, Venetian records note a number of Bulgarians (de genere Bulgarorum) from southern Albania being sold as slaves, suggestiong the Albanians may have subjugated the Slavic population.

Then later this is the Serbian empire

1582 Ottoman census
In 1582, in Ottoman defter "Tahrir defterleri", most of northern Albania had Serb populations; the Sanjak of Scutari had 81,700 Serbs, while Durrës Sandjak had 8,600 Serbs. In the east of the Shkodra lake there were Serb enclaves, also attested in place-names: Zlogora, Brezje, Grnčar, Podgor, Kosmač, Gradič, Dobre, Trnoslav, Gradec, Rumište, Maličevo, Kosovo, Brdence, Poljičani, Popine, and the village Srbin and city of Šklav.[25][26] The 1582—1583 Scutari defter show many nahiyah with a total of 709 villages,[27] of which the following were located within Albania:


Shkodër with 128 villages
Dušmen (Dushmani) with 24 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Toponyms show some South Slavic influence, indicating a presence of a South Slavic-speaking population that later depopulated the region
Islamisation was slowly occurring within the nahiyah, based on the presence of characteristically Muslim names within its population
Zabojana with 48 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Gorje Šestan (Džebel-i Šestan) with 7 villages; majority had personal names with a Serbian character, minority with an Albanian character.
Pobor with 11 villages; overwhelming majority had personal names with a Serbian character
Klemente with 2 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Altin (Altun li) with 41 villages; relative majority had names with a Serbian character, minority with an Albanian character
Petrišpan with 33 villages
Komoran with 20 villages; overwhelming majority had personal names with a Serbian character
Presence of Muslim inhabitants shown in two villages within the nahiyah

Slavic toponyms in Albania

Francois Pouqueville, in his 1820 book Travels in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia, and Thessaly described Bulgarian villages in the Devol region.
Socialist Albania (1944–1992)
Enver Hoxha decided to destroy the Serbian cemeteries and 2 of the Serb temples.[40] In 1966, the state abolished religion, and in 1968 the state forced parents to name their children with contemporary and revolutionary (Illyrian) names. The surnames were forcibly changed by the Albanian government, from Slavic into Albanian ones, as part of Albanianization.
According to the 1928 population census, there were ca. 65,000 Serbs in Albania, forming around 8% of Albania's total population and the largest of its minorities.
According to the 2011 census, 5,870 ethnic Macedonians live in Albania. However, before the census, Macedonian organizations from Albania asked Macedonians to boycott the census because only in Pustec Municipality were individuals were allowed to declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians.
In the 1989 census, 4,697 people had declared themselves Macedonian
Past Helsinki reports stated, "Albania recognizes [...] a Macedonian minority, but only in the Southern regions. Those who identify as Macedonians.

I will come back with more proves this days,although this is not my favorite discusion but you made me liar, or you want to tell me still that people vanished or that never were there such people?
If you need references from the articles please feel free to ask.

 

[LABERIA]

You find yourself that 19th century somewhere which i never said but was speaking generaly middle ages to 19th century,mention the Bashi-bouzouks cause lately they were doing such things,I will show you couple proves,documents now and short history of Albania roughly until Ottoman rule,you will still claim is a "lie" anyway;
The first reference to a Slavic presence in Albania dates to 548, when the Slavs reached Epidamnos (Durrës), capturing fortresses in the city's vicinity. Slavic settlement near Epirus in southern Albania is mentioned in a note in a 10th-century manuscript of Strabo's Geographica, and near Durrës in a Middle Bulgarian translation of the Manasses Chronicle.
Europe in 814

According to toponymic evidence, Slavic settlement was concentrated in the region between the Vjosë and Devoll Rivers. Slavic placenames in this region suggest an eastern South Slavic (i.e. Bulgarian, as opposed to Serbo-Croatian) dialect.Bulgarian Slavs were the majority of the population in the area by the Early Middle Ages,and remained a significant group in central and southern Albania through the 15th century.In the 850s and 860s, Simeon I's First Bulgarian Empire included the Slavic-inhabited areas of what is today western Macedonia and southern Albania, which constituted the Kutmichevitsa administrative province. Kutmichevista included the cities of Ohrid, Glavinitsa (Ballsh), Belgrad (Berat) and Devoll (at the village of Zvezdë). The Bulgarian enlighteners Clement of Ohrid and Naum of Preslav are known to have worked in Kutmichevitsa, where according to the 11th-century account of Theophylact of Bulgaria, Clement had 3,500 students. Clement's and Naum's activity, as well as the consolidation of Bulgarian religious and state authority, helped establish the Bulgarian identity of this Slavic population.
Bulgarian empire

The Ballshi inscription is an epigraph from the time of the Bulgarian Prince (Knyaz) Boris I (852–889) testifying to the christianization of Bulgaria. The inscription was unearthed near Ballshi, Albania

From 989-995 to 1005, Albania was ruled Samuel of Bulgaria. Under Samuel's rule, the region was governed by Ivan Vladimir, his vassal and the husband of his daughter Kosara.

In 1018,Bulgaria was conquered by the Byzantine Empire. While the area was under Byzantine rule, a Bulgarian leader named Tihomir headed an uprising against the Byzantines near Drach; he was first supported but then killed by another insurgent, Peter Delyan, who proceeded to head the uprising and briefly ruled much of Albania, Macedonia, Serbia and western Bulgaria.

Ohrid Archbishopric under Byzantie empire

The area fell under Bulgarian rule again between 1231 and 1240, under Ivan Asen II, who "routed the Greek army ... and conquered the entire Greek, Albanian and Serbian land from Odrin [Edirne] to Drach." John Kukuzelis, a famous medieval composer of Bulgarian descent, was born in the city in the late 13th century.During the Angevin period(1250–1350), the Slavic population lived mainly in the cities and villages near the sea, along the Drin River.

In the late 14th century, Venetian records note a number of Bulgarians (de genere Bulgarorum) from southern Albania being sold as slaves, suggestiong the Albanians may have subjugated the Slavic population.

Then later this is the Serbian empire

1582 Ottoman census
In 1582, in Ottoman defter "Tahrir defterleri", most of northern Albania had Serb populations; the Sanjak of Scutari had 81,700 Serbs, while Durrës Sandjak had 8,600 Serbs. In the east of the Shkodra lake there were Serb enclaves, also attested in place-names: Zlogora, Brezje, Grnčar, Podgor, Kosmač, Gradič, Dobre, Trnoslav, Gradec, Rumište, Maličevo, Kosovo, Brdence, Poljičani, Popine, and the village Srbin and city of Šklav.[25][26] The 1582—1583 Scutari defter show many nahiyah with a total of 709 villages,[27] of which the following were located within Albania:


Shkodër with 128 villages
Dušmen (Dushmani) with 24 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Toponyms show some South Slavic influence, indicating a presence of a South Slavic-speaking population that later depopulated the region
Islamisation was slowly occurring within the nahiyah, based on the presence of characteristically Muslim names within its population
Zabojana with 48 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Gorje Šestan (Džebel-i Šestan) with 7 villages; majority had personal names with a Serbian character, minority with an Albanian character.
Pobor with 11 villages; overwhelming majority had personal names with a Serbian character
Klemente with 2 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Altin (Altun li) with 41 villages; relative majority had names with a Serbian character, minority with an Albanian character
Petrišpan with 33 villages
Komoran with 20 villages; overwhelming majority had personal names with a Serbian character
Presence of Muslim inhabitants shown in two villages within the nahiyah
Slavic toponyms in Albania

Francois Pouqueville, in his 1820 book Travels in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia, and Thessaly described Bulgarian villages in the Devol region.
Socialist Albania (1944–1992)
Enver Hoxha decided to destroy the Serbian cemeteries and 2 of the Serb temples.[40] In 1966, the state abolished religion, and in 1968 the state forced parents to name their children with contemporary and revolutionary (Illyrian) names. The surnames were forcibly changed by the Albanian government, from Slavic into Albanian ones, as part of Albanianization.
According to the 1928 population census, there were ca. 65,000 Serbs in Albania, forming around 8% of Albania's total population and the largest of its minorities.
According to the 2011 census, 5,870 ethnic Macedonians live in Albania. However, before the census, Macedonian organizations from Albania asked Macedonians to boycott the census because only in Pustec Municipality were individuals were allowed to declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians.
In the 1989 census, 4,697 people had declared themselves Macedonian
Past Helsinki reports stated, "Albania recognizes [...] a Macedonian minority, but only in the Southern regions. Those who identify as Macedonians.

I will come back with more proves this days,although this is not my favorite discusion but you made me liar, or you want to tell me still that people vanished or that never were there such people?
If you need references from the articles please feel free to ask.

What you have posted here is a copy paste from this Wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb_minority_in_Albania
It`s not a problem to explain you that this page is a product of many falsifications.

You find yourself that 19th century somewhere which i never said but was speaking generaly middle ages to 19th century,mention the Bashi-bouzouks cause lately they were doing such things,

No, i don`t find myself in 19th century. This are your your words:

All this suggest strong Slavic presence in the area in medieval times,how they become Albanian i don't even want to mention the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians were doing on the Christians or non-Albanians at some period of time,should i mention the atrocities of Ali Pasha on that region destruction of the very prosperous Vlach city of Moskopolje which is remembered to this day,people had no other choice there as they were unarmed against an armed groups.

Ok?
You speaking here about Ali Pasha of Tepelena, an Albanian pasha 1740 – 24 January 1822. So, it`s logic that you are speaking about something happened (according to you) around XIX century.

I will come back with more proves this days,although this is not my favorite discusion but you made me liar, or you want to tell me still that people vanished or that never were there such people? If you need references from the articles please feel free to ask.

No, i am not going to ask you.It makes no sense. From 5 days i am asking you for sources, documents and scholars to prove your theory. And you refuse to bring here a single source.
So, the conclusion is that you are a liar.
Just pls, don`t forget that this is an international forum and not one of your forums in your country. You are free to open a new thread and to prove your theory. Pls, don`t derail this thread.

 

[Sile]

You find yourself that 19th century somewhere which i never said but was speaking generaly middle ages to 19th century,mention the Bashi-bouzouks cause lately they were doing such things,I will show you couple proves,documents now and short history of Albania roughly until Ottoman rule,you will still claim is a "lie" anyway;
The first reference to a Slavic presence in Albania dates to 548, when the Slavs reached Epidamnos (Durrës), capturing fortresses in the city's vicinity. Slavic settlement near Epirus in southern Albania is mentioned in a note in a 10th-century manuscript of Strabo's Geographica, and near Durrës in a Middle Bulgarian translation of the Manasses Chronicle.
Europe in 814

According to toponymic evidence, Slavic settlement was concentrated in the region between the Vjosë and Devoll Rivers. Slavic placenames in this region suggest an eastern South Slavic (i.e. Bulgarian, as opposed to Serbo-Croatian) dialect.Bulgarian Slavs were the majority of the population in the area by the Early Middle Ages,and remained a significant group in central and southern Albania through the 15th century.In the 850s and 860s, Simeon I's First Bulgarian Empire included the Slavic-inhabited areas of what is today western Macedonia and southern Albania, which constituted the Kutmichevitsa administrative province. Kutmichevista included the cities of Ohrid, Glavinitsa (Ballsh), Belgrad (Berat) and Devoll (at the village of Zvezdë). The Bulgarian enlighteners Clement of Ohrid and Naum of Preslav are known to have worked in Kutmichevitsa, where according to the 11th-century account of Theophylact of Bulgaria, Clement had 3,500 students. Clement's and Naum's activity, as well as the consolidation of Bulgarian religious and state authority, helped establish the Bulgarian identity of this Slavic population.
Bulgarian empire

The Ballshi inscription is an epigraph from the time of the Bulgarian Prince (Knyaz) Boris I (852–889) testifying to the christianization of Bulgaria. The inscription was unearthed near Ballshi, Albania

From 989-995 to 1005, Albania was ruled Samuel of Bulgaria. Under Samuel's rule, the region was governed by Ivan Vladimir, his vassal and the husband of his daughter Kosara.

In 1018,Bulgaria was conquered by the Byzantine Empire. While the area was under Byzantine rule, a Bulgarian leader named Tihomir headed an uprising against the Byzantines near Drach; he was first supported but then killed by another insurgent, Peter Delyan, who proceeded to head the uprising and briefly ruled much of Albania, Macedonia, Serbia and western Bulgaria.

Ohrid Archbishopric under Byzantie empire

The area fell under Bulgarian rule again between 1231 and 1240, under Ivan Asen II, who "routed the Greek army ... and conquered the entire Greek, Albanian and Serbian land from Odrin [Edirne] to Drach." John Kukuzelis, a famous medieval composer of Bulgarian descent, was born in the city in the late 13th century.During the Angevin period(1250–1350), the Slavic population lived mainly in the cities and villages near the sea, along the Drin River.

In the late 14th century, Venetian records note a number of Bulgarians (de genere Bulgarorum) from southern Albania being sold as slaves, suggestiong the Albanians may have subjugated the Slavic population.

Then later this is the Serbian empire

1582 Ottoman census
In 1582, in Ottoman defter "Tahrir defterleri", most of northern Albania had Serb populations; the Sanjak of Scutari had 81,700 Serbs, while Durrës Sandjak had 8,600 Serbs. In the east of the Shkodra lake there were Serb enclaves, also attested in place-names: Zlogora, Brezje, Grnčar, Podgor, Kosmač, Gradič, Dobre, Trnoslav, Gradec, Rumište, Maličevo, Kosovo, Brdence, Poljičani, Popine, and the village Srbin and city of Šklav.[25][26] The 1582—1583 Scutari defter show many nahiyah with a total of 709 villages,[27] of which the following were located within Albania:


Shkodër with 128 villages
Dušmen (Dushmani) with 24 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Toponyms show some South Slavic influence, indicating a presence of a South Slavic-speaking population that later depopulated the region
Islamisation was slowly occurring within the nahiyah, based on the presence of characteristically Muslim names within its population
Zabojana with 48 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Gorje Šestan (Džebel-i Šestan) with 7 villages; majority had personal names with a Serbian character, minority with an Albanian character.
Pobor with 11 villages; overwhelming majority had personal names with a Serbian character
Klemente with 2 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Altin (Altun li) with 41 villages; relative majority had names with a Serbian character, minority with an Albanian character
Petrišpan with 33 villages
Komoran with 20 villages; overwhelming majority had personal names with a Serbian character
Presence of Muslim inhabitants shown in two villages within the nahiyah
Slavic toponyms in Albania

Francois Pouqueville, in his 1820 book Travels in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia, and Thessaly described Bulgarian villages in the Devol region.
Socialist Albania (1944–1992)
Enver Hoxha decided to destroy the Serbian cemeteries and 2 of the Serb temples.[40] In 1966, the state abolished religion, and in 1968 the state forced parents to name their children with contemporary and revolutionary (Illyrian) names. The surnames were forcibly changed by the Albanian government, from Slavic into Albanian ones, as part of Albanianization.
According to the 1928 population census, there were ca. 65,000 Serbs in Albania, forming around 8% of Albania's total population and the largest of its minorities.
According to the 2011 census, 5,870 ethnic Macedonians live in Albania. However, before the census, Macedonian organizations from Albania asked Macedonians to boycott the census because only in Pustec Municipality were individuals were allowed to declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians.
In the 1989 census, 4,697 people had declared themselves Macedonian
Past Helsinki reports stated, "Albania recognizes [...] a Macedonian minority, but only in the Southern regions. Those who identify as Macedonians.

I will come back with more proves this days,although this is not my favorite discusion but you made me liar, or you want to tell me still that people vanished or that never were there such people?
If you need references from the articles please feel free to ask.

Great post

It is recorded the venetians took Durres from the normans, who the Normans took it previously from the bulgarians ................makes sense that the bulgars had such a large area from there invasion into the balkans in the 8th century .............but where the bulgars actually slavs at that time or did they become slavs linguistically later on

 

[Milan]

What you have posted here is a copy paste from this Wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb_minority_in_Albania
It`s not a problem to explain you that this page is a product of many falsifications.

No, i don`t find myself in 19th century. This are your your words:

Ok?
You speaking here about Ali Pasha of Tepelena, an Albanian pasha 1740 – 24 January 1822. So, it`s logic that you are speaking about something happened (according to you) around XIX century.

No, i am not going to ask you.It makes no sense. From 5 days i am asking you for sources, documents and scholars to prove your theory. And you refuse to bring here a single source.
So, the conclusion is that you are a liar.
Just pls, don`t forget that this is an international forum and not one of your forums in your country. You are free to open a new thread and to prove your theory. Pls, don`t derail this thread.

Yes it is a lie and conspiracy.

This is what i was refering there;

Destruction of Moscopole by Ali Pasha never happened;
The 1769 sacking and pillaging by Muslim Albanian troops was just the first of a series of attacks, which culminated with the razing of 1788 by the troops of Ali Pasha.Moscopole was practically destroyed by this attack, while some of its commerce shifted to nearby Korçë and Berat.St. Nicholas church built in 1721. The Vlachs often go in the abandoned Moscopole,perhaps they hallcinate too,their ancestors lie to them.
The survivors flee to Thesaly and Macedonia.


I do not even go on such forums and thank you,discusion with you is meaningless just as i suppose.

 

[LABERIA]

Yes it is a lie and conspiracy.

This is what i was refering there;

Destruction of Moscopole by Ali Pasha never happened;
The 1769 sacking and pillaging by Muslim Albanian troops was just the first of a series of attacks, which culminated with the razing of 1788 by the troops of Ali Pasha.Moscopole was practically destroyed by this attack, while some of its commerce shifted to nearby Korçë and Berat.St. Nicholas church built in 1721. The Vlachs often go in the abandoned Moscopole,perhaps they hallcinate too,their ancestors lie to them.
The survivors flee to Thesaly and Macedonia.


I do not even go on such forums and thank you,discusion with you is meaningless just as i suppose.

Again, what you posted above is another lie. My question is there. If you decide one day to answer, i am here. Until there you are a liar.

 

[Milan]

Again, what you posted above is another lie. My question is there. If you decide one day to answer, i am here. Until there you are a liar.

You have no questions but only problems with accepting historical truth.

 

[LABERIA]

You have no questions but only problems with accepting historical truth.

Since you insist that South Albania was inhabitated by slavs and during the Ottoman occupation some bands of Albanians assimilated this slavs in Albanians, i want from you to prove this your theory with facts. If you prove this, i will accept it as a historical truth. If you don't prove it, i will continue to accuse you as a liar. Simple.

 

[Garrick]

You find yourself that 19th century somewhere which i never said but was speaking generaly middle ages to 19th century,mention the Bashi-bouzouks cause lately they were doing such things,I will show you couple proves,documents now and short history of Albania roughly until Ottoman rule,you will still claim is a "lie" anyway;
The first reference to a Slavic presence in Albania dates to 548, when the Slavs reached Epidamnos (Durrës), capturing fortresses in the city's vicinity. Slavic settlement near Epirus in southern Albania is mentioned in a note in a 10th-century manuscript of Strabo's Geographica, and near Durrës in a Middle Bulgarian translation of the Manasses Chronicle.
Europe in 814

According to toponymic evidence, Slavic settlement was concentrated in the region between the Vjosë and Devoll Rivers. Slavic placenames in this region suggest an eastern South Slavic (i.e. Bulgarian, as opposed to Serbo-Croatian) dialect.Bulgarian Slavs were the majority of the population in the area by the Early Middle Ages,and remained a significant group in central and southern Albania through the 15th century.In the 850s and 860s, Simeon I's First Bulgarian Empire included the Slavic-inhabited areas of what is today western Macedonia and southern Albania, which constituted the Kutmichevitsa administrative province. Kutmichevista included the cities of Ohrid, Glavinitsa (Ballsh), Belgrad (Berat) and Devoll (at the village of Zvezdë). The Bulgarian enlighteners Clement of Ohrid and Naum of Preslav are known to have worked in Kutmichevitsa, where according to the 11th-century account of Theophylact of Bulgaria, Clement had 3,500 students. Clement's and Naum's activity, as well as the consolidation of Bulgarian religious and state authority, helped establish the Bulgarian identity of this Slavic population.
Bulgarian empire

The Ballshi inscription is an epigraph from the time of the Bulgarian Prince (Knyaz) Boris I (852–889) testifying to the christianization of Bulgaria. The inscription was unearthed near Ballshi, Albania

From 989-995 to 1005, Albania was ruled Samuel of Bulgaria. Under Samuel's rule, the region was governed by Ivan Vladimir, his vassal and the husband of his daughter Kosara.

In 1018,Bulgaria was conquered by the Byzantine Empire. While the area was under Byzantine rule, a Bulgarian leader named Tihomir headed an uprising against the Byzantines near Drach (Durres); he was first supported but then killed by another insurgent, Peter Delyan, who proceeded to head the uprising and briefly ruled much of Albania, Macedonia, Serbia and western Bulgaria.

Ohrid Archbishopric under Byzantie empire

The area fell under Bulgarian rule again between 1231 and 1240, under Ivan Asen II, who "routed the Greek army ... and conquered the entire Greek, Albanian and Serbian land from Odrin [Edirne] to Drach (Durres)." John Kukuzelis, a famous medieval composer of Bulgarian descent, was born in the city in the late 13th century.During the Angevin period(1250–1350), the Slavic population lived mainly in the cities and villages near the sea, along the Drin River.

In the late 14th century, Venetian records note a number of Bulgarians (de genere Bulgarorum) from southern Albania being sold as slaves, suggestiong the Albanians may have subjugated the Slavic population.

Then later this is the Serbian empire

1582 Ottoman census
In 1582, in Ottoman defter "Tahrir defterleri", most of northern Albania had Serb populations; the Sanjak of Scutari had 81,700 Serbs, while Durrës Sandjak had 8,600 Serbs. In the east of the Shkodra lake there were Serb enclaves, also attested in place-names: Zlogora, Brezje, Grnčar, Podgor, Kosmač, Gradič, Dobre, Trnoslav, Gradec, Rumište, Maličevo, Kosovo, Brdence, Poljičani, Popine, and the village Srbin and city of Šklav.[25][26] The 1582—1583 Scutari defter show many nahiyah with a total of 709 villages,[27] of which the following were located within Albania:


Shkodër with 128 villages
Dušmen (Dushmani) with 24 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Toponyms show some South Slavic influence, indicating a presence of a South Slavic-speaking population that later depopulated the region
Islamisation was slowly occurring within the nahiyah, based on the presence of characteristically Muslim names within its population
Zabojana with 48 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Gorje Šestan (Džebel-i Šestan) with 7 villages; majority had personal names with a Serbian character, minority with an Albanian character.
Pobor with 11 villages; overwhelming majority had personal names with a Serbian character
Klemente with 2 villages; majority had personal names with an Albanian character, minority with a Serbian character.
Altin (Altun li) with 41 villages; relative majority had names with a Serbian character, minority with an Albanian character
Petrišpan with 33 villages
Komoran with 20 villages; overwhelming majority had personal names with a Serbian character
Presence of Muslim inhabitants shown in two villages within the nahiyah

Slavic toponyms in Albania

Francois Pouqueville, in his 1820 book Travels in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia, and Thessaly described Bulgarian villages in the Devol region.
Socialist Albania (1944–1992)
Enver Hoxha decided to destroy the Serbian cemeteries and 2 of the Serb temples.[40] In 1966, the state abolished religion, and in 1968 the state forced parents to name their children with contemporary and revolutionary (Illyrian) names. The surnames were forcibly changed by the Albanian government, from Slavic into Albanian ones, as part of Albanianization.
According to the 1928 population census, there were ca. 65,000 Serbs in Albania, forming around 8% of Albania's total population and the largest of its minorities.
According to the 2011 census, 5,870 ethnic Macedonians live in Albania. However, before the census, Macedonian organizations from Albania asked Macedonians to boycott the census because only in Pustec Municipality were individuals were allowed to declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians.
In the 1989 census, 4,697 people had declared themselves Macedonian
Past Helsinki reports stated, "Albania recognizes [...] a Macedonian minority, but only in the Southern regions. Those who identify as Macedonians.

I will come back with more proves this days,although this is not my favorite discusion but you made me liar, or you want to tell me still that people vanished or that never were there such people?
If you need references from the articles please feel free to ask.

Big post.

...
You can notice that Albanian interlocutor use term "slavs" with small letter. It is no accident, he vilifies all Slavic people. And for you more time he use term a liar what is nonsense, where is culture of dialogue.
...

About Ali Pasha, Muslim Albanian ruler (1740-1822):

David Binder, Duke University Pres

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_3.htm

(Start of quote

In the south-central Balkans, Vlachs settled permanently in towns during the late Middle Ages. Their largest city was Moskopol, with a population of over 40,000 by the mid-eighteenth century. Vlach merchants sent agents thence as far away as Venice and Vienna. Then disaster struck. Albanian bands sacked Moskopol in 1769 and returned to loot in 1788. Then, Ali Pasha Tepelena (1740-1822), the powerful Albanian ruler who had started out life as a bandit chieftain, destroyed what was left of Moskopol.

(End of quote)

Unfortunately Aromanians (Vlachs) who once inhabited a large part of todays Albania were victims of Albanian rulers like Ali Pasha and they never recovered, we are talking about facts, but someone thinks there are no facts, only interpretations.

 

[exercitus]

Well there is a little problem fella , with this Bulgarian Slavs were the majority of the population in the area by the Early Middle Ages,and remained a significant group in central and southern Albania through the 15th century. and this In the late 14th century, Venetian records note a number of Bulgarians (de genere Bulgarorum) from southern Albania being sold as slaves, suggestiong the Albanians may have subjugated the Slavic population. or again this
Не би могло да се даде отговор на въпроса за присъствието на албанците в днешна Южна Албания между XI и XIII в. В този период вестите за тях са изключително от района на север от р. Шкумбин

THE PUZZLE IS NOT COMPLETED .......It misses a piece of crucial evidence !!!!

 

[exercitus]

Let put some light to this issue , shall we , Dr Konstantinos Giakoumis ... Presented 2 Clear Evidence about Albanians in Epirus ( southern albania & northwest greece) before the year(Annus Domini) """1210""" the Reference are (G. Tafel - G. Tomas (1856) 122) Venetian document( VENETIAN CLEVER GUYS i think that they were capable to distiguish a Bulgarian from a Albanian ) citation The presence of Albanians in the Epeirote lands from the beginning of the thirteenth century is also attested by two documentary sources: the first is a Venetian document of 1210, which states that the continent facing the island of Corfu is inhabited by Albanians;20 and the second is letters of the Metropolitan of Naupaktos John Apokaukos to a certain George Dysipati, who was considered to be an ancestor of the famous Shpata family.21 Furthermore, I suggest that names that appear in two acts of the Angevins of Naples dated 130422using the forms, Albos, Spatos, Catarucos, Bischesini, Aranitos, Lecenis, Turbaceos, Marchaseos, Scuras, Zeneuias, Bucceseos, Logoresc and Mateseos are either well-known, less-known or totally unknown names of Albanian clan leaders at that time. Are we obliged to see in this a possible earlier Albanian immigration in the Epeirote lands, as Kostas Komis did in the case of the etymology of the toponym 'Preveza'?23 I believe that the use of hypothetical immigrations as a basis to interpret sources that indicate the presence of Albanians in the Epeirote lands prior to the thirteenth-fourteenth century is somewhat arbitrary. For it serves the concept of national purity in zones with clear lines of communication, mutual relations (as linguistic research has proved24) and common. SO WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE IS A TOTAL BULLSHIT , SPECULATION , NONSENSE AND OFFENSIVE .... ALBANIANS LIVED IN A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT NOT ONLY IN KUTMITCHEVITSA REGION AS A MAJORITY, BUT TOWARD THE EXTREME SOUTH , EPIRUS ( SARANDA TO PREVESA ) THE MOUNTAINS IN FRONT OF CORFU ISLAND AS VENETIANS CONFIRM BEFORE THE A.D 1200 , etrified:[h=1]Не би могло да се даде отговор на въпроса за присъствието на албанците в днешна Южна Албания между XI и XIII в. В този период вестите за тях са изключително от района на север от р. Шкумбин[/h]

 

[exercitus]

First is totaly a wrong methodology to equalize TOPONYMY=ETHNIC POPULATION because it is relative and subjective , it depends from historical conditions and political-administrative situations, it is not a ABSOLUTE CRITERIA . More than 2\3 of Greece is full of slavic toponymy , NO ONE says the 2\3 of greeks are of slavic origin , so why u treat the case of south Albania differently???

 

[exercitus]

About the eastern part ( i.e. western Macedonia) , because yet i cannot publish the links , i will send them piece by piece .