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Thread: Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

  1. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Wrong.

    Nothing to do with gjuhë shqipe (language of Shqiptars i.e. Albanians), and nothing to with present day Shqiptars i.e. Albanians.

    First gjuhë shqipe (Albanian language) document is from 1462.
    Well, our inability to discover more written documents or books in Albanian language, doesn't mean at all the Albanian literature, or even worse the Albanian ethnos, was absent before the year 1462. As a matter of facts, uncountable direct and indirect sources unequivocally prove the existence of a rich Albanian literature, and obviously the existence of the Albanian nation at this corner on earth:

    1332

    Initiative for Making the Passage
    The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum'

    'licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in usu et in omnibus suis libris'
    (The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin, however they use Latin letters in all their books)


    The Albanian presence there, has been proven as early as the 11th century AD

    1000 - 1018

    Anonymous:
    Fragment on the Origins of Nations

    It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.

    Now, we don't know for certain, if the name Albanians has been a lifetime exonym to identify the Albanian nation, especially the time prior to the aforementioned documents, but what we know for certain is that sometimes different Mediaeval authors prefer to call Albanians in what it seems to be their ancient name: Illyrians


    Mazaris (Journey to Hades) Letter September 21. 1415 describing nations inhabiting Peloponnesus
    To classify them exactly is at the moment neither feasible nor urgent; the names, however, that tend to crop up in every conversation as the best known and the most important are these : Laconians, Italians, Peloponnesians, Slavs, Albanians, Gypsies and Jews (not to mention a generous admixture of hybrids), adding up to a total of seven nationalities

  2. #577
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    Therefore, from this point of view Albanian should have evolved
    from one of the ancient I.E. languages spoken in the eastern or western part
    of the Balkans. In such circumstances, one could not establish whether the
    Albanians are the descendants ofthe Illyrians, as some scholars have thought
    about, or of the Thracians or of Daco-Mysians, as some other ones have
    assumed. In this case one should exclude the possibility of considering the
    Albanians as descendants of another people or population inside or outside
    of the ancient Balkans, as there is no historical evidence for the immigration of
    such a people or population into the ancient Balkans. Otherwise, it should
    have been recorded, as in the case of thc incursion of some Celtic tribes, or of
    the Visigoths and Ostrogoths (see Chapter I, 13).

    On the other hand, one could not exclude the possibility that the forefathers
    of the Albanians, before settling on the eastern shores of the Adriatic and
    Ionian seas, might have inhabited somewhere in the eastern or central Balkan.
    However, having no sure information about the course of immigration of the
    I.E. tribes, that settled in the western Balkan, such an assumption remains
    rather ungrounded. At any rate, one should exclude the possibility of such a
    migration from east to west in the historical period starting from the Greek-
    Latin ancient times, because the migration of a somewhat large population in
    this case could not have remained unnoticed and unrecorded by the historical
    sources (see & 7). And still more groundless is the assumption of some
    scholars, who think that the forefathers of the Albanians have immigrated into
    their present country at a relatively late period (see Chapter I, 9-15).

    6. As it was pointed out in Chapter III, a series of data indicate that the
    forefathers of the Albanians, at least since the ancient Greek-Roman period,
    have lived in the eastern Adriatic and Ionian sea-shore areas. It suffices to
    recollect the ancient loanwords from the Greek Doric dialect and from Latin
    (see Chapter Ill, 28-33), a number of ancient Albanian place-names,
    which have undergone changes according to the evolution of the Albanian
    phonological system (see Chapter Ill, 34-83), the early christianization of
    the forefathers of the Albanians (see Chapter Ill, 7-27), as well as the
    ancient dialectal differentiation of Albanian (see Chapter Ill, 3-6).
    Of course, in ancient times, particularly during the Roman domination, as
    well as during the Bulgarian and Serbian occupations in Middle Ages, Greek,
    Roman, and Slavic enclaves have also appeared in the areas inhabited by the
    forefathers of the Albanians. But the fact that the native element did resist
    hellenization, romanization, and slavicization, at least, in the areas inhabited at
    present by Albanians, clearly shows that the natives represented the largest
    part of the population in these areas (see Chapter Ill, 84-91). Otherwise,
    we should have to admit that a few uncultured tribes have succeeded in
    assimilating some hellenized, latinized, and slavicized populations, which had
    not only a cultural superiority but also a significant social-political and
    administrative support. Therefore, that would be an unusual, or rather
    impossible, phenomenon.

    Pg 190-192
    The Origin of the Albanians: Linguistically Investigated
    Shaban Demiraj
    2006
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  3. #578
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    Such a chronology might be confirmed by the analysis of one substantive
    and one verb from among the Latin loans of Albanian: mjek < médicus and
    beko-j < benedicere. The substantive mjek 'physician' has retained the accent
    upon the initial syllable as in Latin, whereas the verb bekö-j, as compared to
    Latin benedico - benedicere, has transposed the accent upon its final stem
    like the other Albanian verbs. Moreover, in both of these words the unstressed
    syllables have been reduced and fallen away. Such gradual reductions are an
    internal development of Albanian. Taking into account the fact that such
    reductions have not taken place even in the oldest layer of the Slavic loanwords,
    it might be affirmed that the above-mentioned reductions have been
    accomplished prior to the contacts of the Albanians with the Balkan Slavs.
    And this would indicate that the above-mentioned stressing of Latin loans in
    Albanian goes back to relatively ancient times.

    Pg 203
    The Origin of the Albanians: Linguistically Investigated
    Shaban Demiraj
    2006

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    Illyro-Thracian etymology of Byzantium:

    Thracian:
    Byzas, Byzos,
    Dacian: Beusas;
    Illyrian: Buzos, Buzetius;
    Byzantion "town on the shore."


    Albanian buzë, "lip."


    Pg 220,
    Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area
    by Elemér Illyés



    In Albanian the word "lip" is often used to describe proximity or closeness to a location.


    For example in Albanian the common phrase "buzë detit" means "right next to the sea" (deti = sea).





    Both these authors also support a Thraco-Illyrian origin for the etymology of Byzantium:


    1. Janin, Raymond (1964). Constantinople byzantine. Paris: Institut Français d'Études Byzantines. p. 10f.


    2. Georgacas, Demetrius John (1947). "The Names of Constantinople". Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association. The Johns Hopkins University Press. 78: 347–67. doi:10.2307/283503. JSTOR 283503.


    From wiki:


    It has been suggested that the name is of Thraco-Illyrian origin. It may be derived from the Thracian or Illyrian personal name Byzas.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Well, our inability to discover more written documents or books in Albanian language, doesn't mean at all the Albanian literature, or even worse the Albanian ethnos, was absent before the year 1462. As a matter of facts, uncountable direct and indirect sources unequivocally prove the existence of a rich Albanian literature, and obviously the existence of the Albanian nation at this corner on earth:

    1332

    Initiative for Making the Passage
    The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum'
    'licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in usu et in omnibus suis libris'
    (The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin, however they use Latin letters in all their books)

    The Albanian presence there, has been proven as early as the 11th century AD

    1000 - 1018

    Anonymous:
    Fragment on the Origins of Nations
    It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.
    Now, we don't know for certain, if the name Albanians has been a lifetime exonym to identify the Albanian nation, especially the time prior to the aforementioned documents, but what we know for certain is that sometimes different Mediaeval authors prefer to call Albanians in what it seems to be their ancient name: Illyrians

    Mazaris (Journey to Hades) Letter September 21. 1415 describing nations inhabiting Peloponnesus
    To classify them exactly is at the moment neither feasible nor urgent; the names, however, that tend to crop up in every conversation as the best known and the most important are these : Laconians, Italians, Peloponnesians, Slavs, Albanians, Gypsies and Jews (not to mention a generous admixture of hybrids), adding up to a total of seven nationalities
    The Vatican archives have started a project to digitize these archives. We hope very much that other documents on the Albanians will come out.The best historians are those who study the history of the church and of religion in general.
    Of course, we have no hope that the same thing will happen with the archives of the Patriarchate of Istanbul or with the archives of the Serbian church, although we Albanians for most of our medieval history, we have been subjects to Orthodox churches.

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    "Messapisch und Albanisch" in which Joachim Matzinger investigates the similarities between the two languages:


    LINK: https://www.academia.edu/6679811/Messapisch_Albanisch

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    "Fragmentarily attested IE languages can be divided into two basic groups:


    1. Those that have at least one attested text/inscription, such as:


    Lusitanian (Portugal)
    Venetic (North-East Italy)
    Messapic (the “heel” of Italy)
    Thracian (Bulgaria)
    Phrygian (Minor Asia)



    2. Those that are attested only through onomastics or individual words in texts written in other languages, such as:


    Ligurian (North-West Italy)
    Illyrian (North-West Balkans)
    Dacian (Romania)
    Macedonian (no relation to present-day Slavic Macedonian).


    Pg 26
    Routledge: The Indo-European Languages
    Edited by Mate Kapović





    " Here are some reliable etymological correspondences between Albanian words and both Illyrian (including Messapian) and Thracian language material (a few glosses and numerous onomastic tokens). Among the most commonly accepted Illyrian-Albanian correspondences are:


    Illyr. ῥινός ‘cloud, fog’ –
    Alb. re, rẽ ‘cloud’;


    Messap. βρένδον ‘deer’, βρέντιον ‘deer’s head’ –
    Alb. bri, brĩ ‘horn’;


    Messap. Juppiter Menzana ‘the God to whom horses were sacrificed’ –
    Alb. mëz, mãz ‘foal’;


    Tarentian βάρυκα·αá¼°δοá¿Œον –
    Alb. bark ‘belly’;


    Messap. aran ‘field’ –
    Alb. arë ‘field’;


    Messap. bilia ‘daughter’ –
    Alb. bijë (dial. bilë).





    Pg 556
    Routledge: The Indo-European Languages
    Edited by Mate Kapović

  8. #583
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    Accentual Stratification of Ancient Greek Loanwords in Albanian by Martin Huld


    "It is well known that Albanian possesses two strata of Romance loans clearly distinguished by the treatment of the consonant groups ct and x. 1) Due to the large number of Romance loans in Albanian, the data are abundant and well-documented (eg Meyer-Lübke 1904—06; 1054—55). A western or Dalmatian strain is attested by i drejtë 'straight, right-handed' < Lat diréctum (cf Vegliotic drat but Rum dreapt 'on the right side) and i shtrenjté (Gheg shtréjt with a nasalized vowel) dear, expensive' < *strinctum < Lat strictum, contaminated by the present tense of the finite verb, stringo, (cf Vegl strat but Rum strimt).


    Other loans, ascribable to the eastern or Dacian strain, are luftë fight' < *lucta (cf Lat luctätio *wrestling match' and Rum luptä'a war) and kofshé 'hip' < Lat coxa (cf Rum coapsä).




    Although the loans from ancient Greek are far fewer, it is the object of this paper to demonstrate that they too fall into two distinct geographical groups, discernible through the placement of accent.


    The presence of Greek loan-words had been noted before Albert Thumb undertook his fundamental study, "Altgriechische Elemente des Albanesischen" (1910), in which he demonstrated that a small number of loan-words in the Albanian lexicon were not only of
    Greek origin but were as old or older than the abundant Romance layer.


    The major import of Thumb's research was that it provided clear evidence that the ancestors of the Albanians were already settled in the Balkans during classical times."


    Martin Huld demonstrates there are two distinctive types of Ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. Ancient Makedonian loanwords that came from long close contact, and remote loanwords from distant Greek dialects related to trade.

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    "The presence of ancient West Greek loans in Albanian implies that in classical antiquity the precursors of the Albanians were a Balkan tribe to the north and west of the Greeks. Such people would probably have been 'Illyrians' to classical writers. This conclusion is neither very surprising nor very enlightening since the ethnographic terminology of most classical authors is not very precise. An Illyrian label does little to solve the complex problems of the origins of the Albanian language.


    The Makedonian nature of these loans is supported by the geographical distribution Of classical place-names that show the same effects of the Albanian accent rule:
    8) Niš (Alb Nish) < ad Naissum, Ναϊσσός,
    9) Rusc (in Bogdan, modern *Rush, present-day Dubrovnik) <
    ad Rugúsās,
    10) Štip (Alb Shtip) < "Aotlßov and
    11) Vloré (Gheg Vloné) < Αυλώνα.


    These place-names leave little doubt that the Albanian accent rules were observed over Macedonia, Epirus and Upper Moesia.


    It is very probable that at least one of the non-Greek languages of ancient Makedonia was either the ancestor of Albanian or its very near relative.

    Among "Makedonian" glosses is in which äéog is a respectable proto-form for Alb ah beech tree'. Other Albanoid glosses are xaaröv'$üov. A9agavcg — Alb kashtö*thatch, straw', öi$a•acse. Aaxovcg Alb dhi < *öfZä with lost intervocalic voiced spirant and possibly öeåvtg (emended from deåvzg) 'Aa- pog= Alb dre-ri (Gheg dré-ni).


    (Screenshot of this passage since I don't know how to copy these Greek characters:










    The history of the second ancient Greek stratum in Albanian is more complex. The majority of these words represent either edible plants or agricultural implements, and all show consistent and un-Albanian antepenultimate accent. This fact suggests that these words were not borrowed directly into Albanian from an intimately associated Greek-speaking population as the Makedonian loans were but came from more remote trade contacts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    "Messapisch und Albanisch" in which Joachim Matzinger investigates the similarities between the two languages:
    LINK: https://www.academia.edu/6679811/Messapisch_Albanisch
    this paper below from 2018
    .
    .Ph.D. thesis Assessing Migration and Demographic Change in pre-Roman and Roman Period Southern Italy Using Whole-Mitochondrial DNA and Stable Isotope Analysis, or The Biogeographic Origins of Iron Age Peucetians and Working-Class Romans From Southern Italy, by Matthew Emery, McMaster University (2018).
    .
    states that messapic is an east balkan language
    Iron Age southern Italians likely descended from early to late Neolithic farmers from Anatolia and possibly as far East as the Caucasus, and from migrants arriving from eastern Europe around the late Neolithic/early Bronze Age. These findings support previous hypotheses that the ancestors of the Iapygians may have originated in the eastern Balkan region, or derive shared ancestry with a common source population from eastern Europe.
    Iapygians spoke messapic
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Accentual Stratification of Ancient Greek Loanwords in Albanian by Martin Huld
    "It is well known that Albanian possesses two strata of Romance loans clearly distinguished by the treatment of the consonant groups ct and x. 1) Due to the large number of Romance loans in Albanian, the data are abundant and well-documented (eg Meyer-Lübke 1904—06; 1054—55). A western or Dalmatian strain is attested by i drejtë 'straight, right-handed' < Lat diréctum (cf Vegliotic drat but Rum dreapt 'on the right side) and i shtrenjté (Gheg shtréjt with a nasalized vowel) dear, expensive' < *strinctum < Lat strictum, contaminated by the present tense of the finite verb, stringo, (cf Vegl strat but Rum strimt).
    Other loans, ascribable to the eastern or Dacian strain, are luftë fight' < *lucta (cf Lat luctätio *wrestling match' and Rum luptä'a war) and kofshé 'hip' < Lat coxa (cf Rum coapsä).
    Although the loans from ancient Greek are far fewer, it is the object of this paper to demonstrate that they too fall into two distinct geographical groups, discernible through the placement of accent.
    The presence of Greek loan-words had been noted before Albert Thumb undertook his fundamental study, "Altgriechische Elemente des Albanesischen" (1910), in which he demonstrated that a small number of loan-words in the Albanian lexicon were not only of
    Greek origin but were as old or older than the abundant Romance layer.
    The major import of Thumb's research was that it provided clear evidence that the ancestors of the Albanians were already settled in the Balkans during classical times."
    Martin Huld demonstrates there are two distinctive types of Ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. Ancient Makedonian loanwords that came from long close contact, and remote loanwords from distant Greek dialects related to trade.
    vegliot dialect began in liburnian lands and was later used by Dalmatians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmat...egliot_dialect

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    Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

    Maybe unrelated, Veglie is a town in Salento, (Messapia).

    ... the origin of the name comes from the pre-Messapic "vel" of the Mediterranean origin meaning "elevation"....

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veglie
    🕷️

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    this paper below from 2018

    states that messapic is an east balkan language
    Liar, the paper states no such thing. I have posted the link below for anybody to check themselves.

    Sile you have sent this study too many times to me and i have responded to it too many times across other forums also for you to not be "trawlling" now.

    1. This study does not once mention the Messapic language or dialect. The word "language" appears three times, only in the list of references in the titles of non-messapic related papers.

    2. This is a quote from the paper: " Further, historic and archaeologicalsources suggest that the Iron Age Iapygian communities of southern Italy originate from anunknown pre-Iron Age population from Illyria, situated in the present-day Balkan region(Peruzzi 2016)."

    3. This is from the conclusion of the paper that you yourself posted: "Taken together, population pairwise ΦST, and the distribution of mtDNA haplotypes inrelation to the comparative mtDNA data set show that the Iron Age southern Italians likelydescended from early to late Neolithic farmers from Anatolia and possibly as far East as theCaucasus, and from migrants arriving from eastern Europe around the late Neolithic/earlyBronze Age".

    Early Bronze age is 3000BC, which is 2500-2000 years earlier than the linguistic evidence I posted about Ancient Greek loanwords and Messapic - Albanian concordance so this paper is not even directly relevant or a counter-argument to what I posted.

    Also, using EEF mtdna to argue more eastern origin without comparing with Y-dna is hardly convincing. All the linguistic evidence I posted is still solid, despite you trying to give a different impression to onlookers

    Here is a link to the paper so that onlookers can see for themselves.

    LINK: https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/bitstr...mery_Final.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Liar, the paper states no such thing. I have posted the link below for anybody to check themselves.

    Sile you have sent this study too many times to me and i have responded to it too many times across other forums also for you to not be "trawlling" now.

    1. This study does not once mention the Messapic language or dialect. The word "language" appears three times, only in the list of references in the titles of non-messapic related papers.

    2. This is a quote from the paper: " Further, historic and archaeologicalsources suggest that the Iron Age Iapygian communities of southern Italy originate from anunknown pre-Iron Age population from Illyria, situated in the present-day Balkan region(Peruzzi 2016)."

    3. This is from the conclusion of the paper that you yourself posted: "Taken together, population pairwise ΦST, and the distribution of mtDNA haplotypes inrelation to the comparative mtDNA data set show that the Iron Age southern Italians likelydescended from early to late Neolithic farmers from Anatolia and possibly as far East as theCaucasus, and from migrants arriving from eastern Europe around the late Neolithic/earlyBronze Age".

    Early Bronze age is 3000BC, which is 2500-2000 years earlier than the linguistic evidence I posted about Ancient Greek loanwords and Messapic - Albanian concordance so this paper is not even directly relevant or a counter-argument to what I posted.

    Also, using EEF mtdna to argue more eastern origin without comparing with Y-dna is hardly convincing. All the linguistic evidence I posted is still solid, despite you trying to give a different impression to onlookers

    Here is a link to the paper so that onlookers can see for themselves.

    LINK: https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/bitstr...mery_Final.pdf
    I gave you analysis from this site on the above
    https://indo-european.eu/tag/neolithic/
    and you can write comments directly to the author
    .
    I could not link it yesterday as I only have 5 login attempts ...........I need to login every time I change a page on eupedia ...........and need to place dots or else everything rolls into each other

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I gave you analysis from this site on the above
    https://indo-european.eu/tag/neolithic/
    and you can write comments directly to the author
    .
    No, liar. You said "this paper below from 2018 states that messapic is an east balkan language".

    It said no such thing and I linked if for everyone to see. I also just checked this blog you have now posted and it also says no such thing about messapic being an east balkan language.

    Liar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    No, liar. You said "this paper below from 2018 states that messapic is an east balkan language".

    It said no such thing and I linked if for everyone to see. I also just checked this blog you have now posted and it also says no such thing about messapic being an east balkan language.

    Liar.
    what are you doing on the internet if you cannot even search
    https://indo-european.eu/tag/messapic/
    do i have to do everything for you......you are hopeless.....do not bother me anymore.....and make comments on that site if you disagree , he will respond to you and explain in detail .
    stop using the net if you cannot search or do a 3 hour course which is available

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    what are you doing on the internet if you cannot even search
    https://indo-european.eu/tag/messapic/
    I already looked at it and its the exact same paper that I also linked to. Like I said he states nowhere in the blog post that "messapic is an east balkan language"

    So you continue to expose yourself as a liar

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    "Albanian shows developments of the three Indo-European dorsals that are much too complex to be interpreted by the crude and false satem—centum dichotomy and that, whatever designation the inherited Indo-European element in Albanian may receive, it cannot be characterized as a Thraco—lllyrian hybrid. Although the developments of the Indo-European phonemes in this stratum are quite complex, we are, nevertheless, observing the evolution of a single entity. "




    Basic Albanian Etymologies
    by Martin Huld







    The mere presence of affricated or assibilated reflexes of Indo-European dorsals is insufficient grounds for the Satem classification; English, Frisian, French or Spanish could equally be called Satem on this basis. The Satem languages ( here used only of Indo-Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic ) are characterized by sibilant or in the case of the Kafiri languages, affricated reflexes of the Indo-European palatals and the concomitant, unconditioned merging of the Indo-European pure— and labio-velars. This trait is shared by Armenian, but labiovelars after *u are delabialized and merge with the Indo-European palatals in Armenian but not in Indo-Iranian, Baltic and Slavic. Unlike the other languages, Armenian delabialization must have preceded affrication of palatals in Armenian.


    Albanian does not merge the pure- and labio-velars before original front vowels; this distinguishes it from the more narrowly defined Satem languages. The Satem languages, as well as Greek and Armenian, distinguish palatals plus *u from the labiovelar. In having s and z from all palatals plus *u and from labiovelars before *i and front vowels, Albanian matches neither the Satem languages nor the others where these sounds merge under all conditions. A third feature shared by Indo-Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic is the retraction of *s after r, u, k, and i. Albanian shows no special treatment of *s after these sounds that is not consistent with the Albanian treatment of *s elsewhere; we must reject Pedersen's conclusion (1895c:83) that the neofinal retraction of *s to sh has any relation to this 'Satem' feature.


    The most striking feature that separates Albanian from the Satem languages is the environmentally conditioned depalatalization of Indo-European palatals before non-vocalic resonants . This feature, a corollary to the Albanian neutralization of palatals before non-vocalic sounds, is entirely absent in Indo-Iranian and Armenian and quite different from the internal variation found in Baltic and Slavic, eg Lith akmuõ ‘stone' , ãšmenys 'edge (of a tool)’ both from *Aekmen-, cf Shevelov (1965:141—45) . Kortlandt (1978) attempted to link the sporadic Baltic-Slavic failure to assibilate Indo-European palatals to the regular preconsonantal neutralization seen in Albanian, but his arguments are less than persuasive. The palatal in both akmuõ and ãšmenys must have always stood before consonantal *m. Analogy provides no rational explanation for this divergence. The Baltic and Slavic variation may, like English ditch: :dyke reflect a now suppressed dialect variation. Fluctuation of reflexes between palatal stops and affricates is a feature observed in many languages. Dialects of Carrier, Ahtena and Koyukon, Athapaskan languages of Canada and Alaska, show both /kY/ and / tš/ for Proto—Athapaskan *k (Hoijer 1963:13-17) .


    Pg 160, Basic Albanian Etymologies
    by Martin Huld

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I already looked at it and its the exact same paper that I also linked to. Like I said he states nowhere in the blog post that "messapic is an east balkan language"

    So you continue to expose yourself as a liar
    listen
    the messapians are an Iapygian tribe along with the Daunians.....the messapic spoke the same as the Iapygians and the Daunians , because they are a sub-branch of the Iapygians
    The Messapians (Greek: Μεσσάπιοι, translit. Messápioi; Latin: Messapii) were a Iapygian tribe that inhabited Salento in classical antiquity. Two other Iapygian tribes, the Peucetians and the Daunians, inhabited central and northern Apulia respectively.
    It is difficult to understand , what a sub-branch is.
    my guess , is you did not pose the question on the site
    you can follow strabo the roman historian if you want

    since you have difficulty in finding anything ......below is another take
    https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginfi...Messapians.pdf
    why do you want to associate with the calabrians, they have a lot of Greek admixture......i thought you do not care for the greeks
    another below
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...trabo/6C*.html

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    Some Celto-Albanian isoglosses and their implications

    "Çabej (1969) originally posited a small number of Albanian-Celtic-Germanic isoglosses. Apart from a more detailed discussion of besa and njerí, we highlight in greater depth the areal diffusion of the I-E diffusion of Albanoid bërrakë, e blertë, brī and dritë. We add in-depth observations on the Celto-Albanian binomial ardracht (Old Irish) – dritë (Albanoid), where the Celtic terms involved are traceable to Gaulish dercos and uodercos of texts and inscriptions."

    2018 | John Trumper | University of Calabria


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    "Homeric Iliad is a translation of Illyrian Iliad. The Greek translation left many illyr. cognates of the Illyrian Iliad unchanged.There is no doubt that gr. δῶρον `hand span' is a suffixed illyr. dora `hand' consequently Iliad was brought to Balkan languages by Illyrians."


    "The phonetic shift kh > t, ĝh > d is a unique alb. phonetic mutation. Hence alb. dorë `hand' derived from truncated ĝhesor.
    The source of Root / lemma: der-1 ( : dōr-, der-) or dōr- : dǝr- : `hand span' is of Illyrian origin and then it spread to other languages.



    Pg 600
    Proto-Indo-European Etymological Dictionary
    A Revised Edition of Julius Pokorny’s Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch







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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The Makedonian nature of these loans is supported by the geographical distribution Of classical place-names that show the same effects of the Albanian accent rule:
    8) Niš (Alb Nish) < ad Naissum, Ναϊσσός,
    9) Rusc (in Bogdan, modern *Rush, present-day Dubrovnik) <
    ad Rugúsās,
    10) Štip (Alb Shtip) < "Aotlßov and
    11) Vloré (Gheg Vloné) < Αυλώνα.
    These place-names leave little doubt that the Albanian accent rules were observed over Macedonia, Epirus and Upper Moesia.
    It is very probable that at least one of the non-Greek languages of ancient Makedonia was either the ancestor of Albanian or its very near relative.
    The Šar Mountains also perhaps follow Albanian accent rule,but ancient name of this mountain was "Scardus" has been compared with Lithuanian "skardus" cliffy,from PIE *(s)ker-d.
    Albanians today are living on this mountains and arround,so what Scardus meant in Albanian,why it yield "Šar" instead,seem like assimilated word.That is perhaps the same with some of your words listed above.

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    This one is for fun. The story Herodotus tells about Egyptian King Psammetichus' experiment to find out who the most ancient people were.


    "Now before Psammetichus became king of Egypt, the Egyptians believed that they were the oldest people on earth. But ever since Psammetichus became king and wished to find out which people were the oldest, they have believed that the Phrygians were older than they, and they than everybody else.


    Psammetichus, when he was in no way able to learn by inquiry which people had first come into being, devised a plan by which he took two newborn children of the common people and gave them to a shepherd to bring up among his flocks. He gave instructions that no one was to speak a word in their hearing; they were to stay by themselves in a lonely hut, and in due time the shepherd was to bring goats and give the children their milk and do everything else necessary. Psammetichus did this, and gave these instructions, because he wanted to hear what speech would first come from the children, when they were past the age of indistinct babbling.


    And he had his wish; for one day, when the shepherd had done as he was told for two years, both children ran to him stretching out their hands and calling “Bekos!” as he opened the door and entered. When he first heard this, he kept quiet about it; but when, coming often and paying careful attention, he kept hearing this same word, he told his master at last and brought the children into the king's presence as required. Psammetichus then heard them himself, and asked to what language the word “Bekos” belonged; he found it to be a Phrygian word, signifying bread. Reasoning from this, the Egyptians acknowledged that the Phrygians were older than they.


    This is the story which I heard from the priests of Hephaestus' temple at Memphis; the Greeks say among many foolish things that Psammetichus had the children reared by women whose tongues he had cut out."


    Obviously, this was a myth and an experiment like that would never have yielded this result. But the roots of the myth may have been based in some sort of mythic memory.




    In Albanian the word for Bread is "Bukë"


    From Proto-Albanian *bukā, continuing *bʰok 'to burn', further related to Proto-Indo-European *bʰōg 'to roast, to bake'


    Close to Phrygian βεκος (bekos, “bread”), Illyrian *bagaron (“warm”), Armenian բոց (bocʿ, “flame”), Vulgar Latin focacius (“kind of baked dough”) from focus (“fire”), Ancient Greek φώγω (phṓgō, “roast”, verb) and Old English bacan (“to bake”).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    In Albanian the word for Bread is "Bukë"


    From Proto-Albanian *bukā, continuing *bʰok 'to burn', further related to Proto-Indo-European *bʰōg 'to roast, to bake'


    "As the Macedonians say, these Phrygians were called Briges as long as they dwelt in Europe, where they were neighbors of the Macedonians; but when they changed their home to Asia, they changed their name also and were called Phrygians."


    Herodotus. Histories, 7.73.

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    The Albanian word for grape is "Rrush" that comes from Proto-Albanian *Rāguša.

    From Proto-Albanian *rāguša, from Proto-Indo-European *sr̥h₂gós ‘berry’, oblique of *sróh₂gs (compare Greek ρώγα (róga) ‘grape’, Latin frāgum ‘strawberry’)


    The likeness to the old name of Dubrovnik (Ragusa) is striking, although the official wiki explanations say they come from Lausa.

    This is the official wiki explanation:


    The Latin, Italian and Dalmatian name Ragusa derives its name from Lausa (from the Greek ξαυ: xau, "precipice"); it was later altered to Rausium, Rhagusium, Ragusium or Rausia (even Lavusa, Labusa, Raugia and Rachusa) and finally into Ragusa. The official change of name from Ragusa to Dubrovnik came into effect after World War I. It is known in historiography as the Republic of Ragusa

    Borrowed from ItalianRagusa, said to be derived from Lausa, a rock in the historical province. The name most likely means "slab" and is cognate with Italian losanga (“slab”).[1] See English lozenge.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ragusa#Italian

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