Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

[Johane Derite]

Linguist Krzysztof Tomasz Witczak argues that Albanians' influence in ancient Greek since at least 7th Century BC is evident in Hesychius and the ancient Spartan poet Alcmans' work:

"The basic conclusion is that the Proto-Albanian lexical influence on Doric Greek started as early as in the 7th century BC. lt is finally suggested that Ancient Greek borrowings from the Proto-Albanian language appeared initially in Alcman's works, which contained a component of the Laconian folk vocabulary of Proto-Albanian origin."

"The earliest Albanian loanwords in Greek" / 2016
by Krzysztof Tomasz Witczak

[LABERIA]

Linguist Krzysztof Tomasz Witczak argues that Albanians' influence in ancient Greek since at least 7th Century BC is evident in Hesychius and the ancient Spartan poet Alcmans' work:

"The basic conclusion is that the Proto-Albanian lexical influence on Doric Greek started as early as in the 7th century BC. lt is finally suggested that Ancient Greek borrowings from the Proto-Albanian language appeared initially in Alcman's works, which contained a component of the Laconian folk vocabulary of Proto-Albanian origin."

"The earliest Albanian loanwords in Greek" / 2016
by Krzysztof Tomasz Witczak

Very interesting Johane. Thanks for sharing.

[Sile]

Linguist Krzysztof Tomasz Witczak argues that Albanians' influence in ancient Greek since at least 7th Century BC is evident in Hesychius and the ancient Spartan poet Alcmans' work:

"The basic conclusion is that the Proto-Albanian lexical influence on Doric Greek started as early as in the 7th century BC. lt is finally suggested that Ancient Greek borrowings from the Proto-Albanian language appeared initially in Alcman's works, which contained a component of the Laconian folk vocabulary of Proto-Albanian origin."

"The earliest Albanian loanwords in Greek" / 2016
by Krzysztof Tomasz Witczak

as I said many times before .....
gheg albanians = dardani ......linguistically close to thraki
tosk albanians = epirote ........linguistically close to greek/doric
.
all you need to fix is the problem of some ancient historians classify the 14 epirote tribes as Illyrian ..........this is purely to make the Epirotes be non-greek or as ancient greeks state barbarians

[Tutkun Arnaut]

as I said many times before .....
gheg albanians = dardani ......linguistically close to thraki
tosk albanians = epirote ........linguistically close to greek/doric
.
all you need to fix is the problem of some ancient historians classify the 14 epirote tribes as Illyrian ..........this is purely to make the Epirotes be non-greek or as ancient greeks state barbarians

Albanian language is hybrid Pellazgo- Illyrian. Pellazgoi were the pre Greek, pre Albanian people inhabiting the area. They are recorded as living side by side with Greeks for 1500 years. Very long time. Albanian language is influenced by Doric at 5% of total vocabulary. But there is no way to say that Epirotic language is close to Doric. Close to what? totally different vocabulary? Greek is a branch of proto Armenian, Albanian does have a very remote Armenian connecting.
So if there is any Albanian connection to Greek is through Pellazgs since pellazgs invaded by Hellenes become Greeks, those invaded by Illyrians became Albanians. And both Albanian and Greek inherited certain amount of Pellazg vocabulary

[Sile]

Albanian language is hybrid Pellazgo- Illyrian. Pellazgoi were the pre Greek, pre Albanian people inhabiting the area. They are recorded as living side by side with Greeks for 1500 years. Very long time. Albanian language is influenced by Doric at 5% of total vocabulary. But there is no way to say that Epirotic language is close to Doric. Close to what? totally different vocabulary? Greek is a branch of proto Armenian, Albanian does have a very remote Armenian connecting.
So if there is any Albanian connection to Greek is through Pellazgs since pellazgs invaded by Hellenes become Greeks, those invaded by Illyrians became Albanians. And both Albanian and Greek inherited certain amount of Pellazg vocabulary

in Italian literature ( regional italian republics ) by scholars at the period of medieval times and renaissance times, the albanians are always referred to as the epirotes

[Johane Derite]

Hyper-Borea is named after the Thracian god Boreas, which the Greeks considered the God of the Winter and the North Winds. Borë in Albanian means Snow

[don_joe]

Hyper-Borea is named after the Thracian god Boreas, which the Greeks considered the God of the Winter and the North Winds. Borë in Albanian means Snow

Same as the coastal cold north wind Bora (or Bura) in Croatia. Wikipedia says it comes from a Greek word Boreas. That's basically it.

[Johane Derite]

The strange & mysterious case of the Bellifortis Manuscript, the first illustrated manual on military technology.


A strange initiation ceremony/ritual is described in a mysterious Latin passage found on the last page. In between the Latin passages are some non-Latin sentences that some linguists and historians, like Robert Elsie, believe are possibly archaic Albanian incantations.


Link: http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1986Bellifortis.pdf

[Johane Derite]

Oh my god, I'm dying of laughter. So this is the guy that serb/greek nationalists have been using to "debunk" Albanian-Illyrian relations for so long?

This is from a 2018 book.

Not only does he confirm what we have said about the Taulanti - Dallendyshe (Swallow) relation, but he admits to Albanian being "close to Illyrian and Messapic".

The language he uses here is much softer than in the balkaninsight that is so often shared (and was shared by lazaridis) where he said:

“The two are opposites and cannot fit together,”.

What a joke, give it twenty years and it will become even more clear with time how right we were to stand our ground.

Don't forget, Pyrrhus was raised by the Taulanti, and that means according to Matzinger, he was raised speaking a language "close to Albanian".

Also, isn't it a very big deal that we now know Messapic was a language close to Albanian? Shouldn't there be news articles about this? Why the radio silence?

[Johane Derite]

Please note, he didn't say "close to Dacian" or "close to Thracian" he said Illyrian and Messapian. The sheer damage control lmao, what type of comment is it to say "undocumented indo-european Balkan idiom" when Illyrian is literally an "undocumented Indo-European Balkan idiom", we don't have a single text.

Cannot believe the damage control lol

[Johane Derite]

And his placenames, LMAO. How can people make these arguments in earnest? Native Americans must not be Native Americans because 99% of placenames in the USA are English, lmao!

[Sile]

There is no Iberian language ( there is castilian, catalan, portuguese etc ) , there is no Scandinavian language ( there is norwegian, swedish, danish etc ) , there is no British language ( there is english, scottish, irish, welsh etc ).......this is because they are geographical areas....the same as Illyria, it is a geographical term for an area in ancient times representing west balkans, it consists of many tribes and so there will never be a Illyrian language found, the languages would be dalmatian, liburnian or pannonian and any other tribe in the illyrian geographical area
Only "illyrian" personnel names have been found from noricum ( austria ) to modern Montenegro........

[Nik]

There is no Iberian language ( there is castilian, catalan, portuguese etc ) , there is no Scandinavian language ( there is norwegian, swedish, danish etc ) , there is no British language ( there is english, scottish, irish, welsh etc ).......this is because they are geographical areas....the same as Illyria, it is a geographical term for an area in ancient times representing west balkans, it consists of many tribes and so there will never be a Illyrian language found, the languages would be dalmatian, liburnian or pannonian and any other tribe in the illyrian geographical area
Only "illyrian" personnel names have been found from noricum ( austria ) to modern Montenegro........

Castillan, Catalan, and Portuguese are to a high degree mutually intelligible. I speak Italian and intermediate Spanish and I understand at least 80% in Catalan and Portuguese.

When it comes to Scandinavia, their even more mutually intelligible than the Iberian group.

But what is really interesting is to know what are these Scottish, Irish, and Welsh languages you speak of.

We've read your Noricum Illyrian crap repeatedly so you can take a break now...for several years.

[LABERIA]

Castillan, Catalan, and Portuguese are to a high degree mutually intelligible. I speak Italian and intermediate Spanish and I understand at least 80% in Catalan and Portuguese.

When it comes to Scandinavia, their even more mutually intelligible than the Iberian group.

But what is really interesting is to know what are these Scottish, Irish, and Welsh languages you speak of.

We've read your Noricum Illyrian crap repeatedly so you can take a break now...for several years.

I have always appreciate the fundamental contribution of Sile with his theory about bastarnae.

[Sile]

Castillan, Catalan, and Portuguese are to a high degree mutually intelligible. I speak Italian and intermediate Spanish and I understand at least 80% in Catalan and Portuguese.
When it comes to Scandinavia, their even more mutually intelligible than the Iberian group.
But what is really interesting is to know what are these Scottish, Irish, and Welsh languages you speak of.
We've read your Noricum Illyrian crap repeatedly so you can take a break now...for several years.

There is no written language of illyrian ever found .....

[Nik]

There is no written language of illyrian ever found .....

No way, I had no idea about it. You're already in 2034 with these exclusive knowledge.

[Johane Derite]

Bonfante and Milan Budimir argued that the Philistines of the Bible had Illyrian origins. If they are right, then it means the Philistines spoke a language "close to Albanian" (according to Matzinger).

Milan Budimir is a very serious scholar who seems to have done some very in depth research and uncovered some things I have not seen anywhere else. It's a shame i dont know serbian and cyrillic to go more indepth into his research.

He also seems to have an interesting theory. He concedes that there was obviously a non-indo european language people in the balkans before the IE people, but he believes that Greek wasn't the first Indo European language in the Balkans, he argues that it was a language of which Albanian is a descendant, which based on toponyms called themselves something like "Pelast". He thinks this language had some ancient relationship/closeness with the Balto-Slavic languages, which in his words: "explains the rapid and almost complete slavization of the northern Balkan when Slavic-speaking groups appeared there". (The closeness of Albanian with Baltic languages like Lithuanian and Latvian has been established by Vladimir Orel convincingly)

He mentions these ancient examples:

Hesychius seems to have recorded that Athenians called them "Pelastikos" instead of "Pelasgikos".
Budimir also seems to have found a scholiast of Homer, in which it says "Pelastike" instead of "Pelasgike"
He also connects it with an ancient toponym in Epirus in South Albania called "Palaiste"
He also connects with the myth of "Palaestinus" (Son of Poseidon, from which a river in West Bulgaria was named, now called Struma)
"Pelestai" were the ancient unfree population of Thessaly
"Pelastai/Pelaistai" the term for the labouring population of Attica according to lexicographers Ammonius and Pollex
"Apenestai" a toponym in South Italy.
And of course the ancient "Palaestina" known as the Philistines.

[Milan.M]

Johane [email protected]
True Milan Budimir a Serb is good scholar and linguist, likewise Katicic a Croat,however let me say that in some of your previous post you was accusing Slavs for agenda driven theories against Albanians if they had different opinion like Vladimir Orel who is Russian for example.So some Slavs are good some bad,i rather think that they had different views only,they were linguists.

Have nothing against you i appreciate that you do your research,if i can help with Cyrillic feel free to post.

[Johane Derite]

Johane [email protected]
True Milan Budimir a Serb is good scholar and linguist, likewise Katicic a Croat,however let me say that in some of your previous post you was accusing Slavs for agenda driven theories against Albanians if they had different opinion like Vladimir Orel who is Russian for example.So some Slavs are good some bad,i rather think that they had different views only,they were linguists.

Have nothing against you i appreciate that you do your research,if i can help with Cyrillic feel free to post.

I don't have any other likes left for today or else I wanted to like your comment for the offer. Thank you.

Yes I will unfortunately always have suspicions against the Serbian academy of sciences, since they historically have been politicised like all balkan academies of sciences (SANU, etc).

My issues with Orel were when he started to do history, which is a different field than linguistics. I think Matzinger, Orel are great linguists, but when they make historical claims they are no longer in their specialisation. A historian is someone who is able to synthesise the information from the ethnographer, linguist, chronicles, newspapers, military archives, etc to build a complete picture of the past or narrative at least. So when they rush to do media appearances and claims about the Beskids for example i am suspicious, since being a historian is a different profession. Bjeshke in Albanian is considered by Cabej to be a Rhaetic substrate word, not even Albanian, and Orel claimed with this word that Albanians were in the Beskids. Problems like these etc.

But obviously Serbia has good capable scientists and I don't deny this.

[Milan.M]

Well i am more inclined to follow Milan Budimir if you ask me,even thought i never read all of his work only some of it,so far to me he and Trubachev from the Russians,however Trubachev studies were more for IE and Slavic languages,this ones are some of the best linguists for me.

And probably the ones that started the Armenian hypothesis for IE origin Ivanov and Gamkrelidze.

[bigsnake49]

Easy to speculate when you have no written language. Nobody can contradict you. Linguists can take 7-10 words and weave a whole theory about history and archaeology around it. Never seen anything like it. They put conspiracy theorists to shame.

[Johane Derite]

Easy to speculate when you have no written language. Nobody can contradict you. Linguists can take 7-10 words and weave a whole theory about history and archaeology around it. Never seen anything like it. They put conspiracy theorists to shame.

Archeology and history supports the fact of phillistines being european invaders. There is evidence in a pig species they brought, pottery, the descriptions of goliaths armour, peleset sea peoples etc.

Anyway Messapian language has inscriptions, and theyr close to Albanian. Catch up to the latest consensus

[Gash]

Easy to speculate when you have no written language. Nobody can contradict you. Linguists can take 7-10 words and weave a whole theory about history and archaeology around it. Never seen anything like it. They put conspiracy theorists to shame.

Yeah, those scholars that put Albanian as Thracian/Dacian should be considered conspiracy theorists. You described them well there. They made never any good arguements and just speculation. What has followed is a bandwagon of fan boys of such theories

[Sile]

Archeology and history supports the fact of phillistines being european invaders. There is evidence in a pig species they brought, pottery, the descriptions of goliaths armour, peleset sea peoples etc.
Anyway Messapian language has inscriptions, and theyr close to Albanian. Catch up to the latest consensus

doubt it
.
from studies
The other hypothesis is that Illyrian is related to Messapic, a language spoken in Apulia (the "heel" of Italy). There are indeed ties between the two areas: because northern winds are common in the Adriatic Sea, it is easy to sail from the Illyrian islands to the the opposite shore. Returning home, these sailors brought back products that were stored in Apulian pottery, which has been found in great quantities along the Illyrian shore.
Because we know so little about the Illyrian language, these hypotheses cannot be tested. However, we are certain that they cannot both be true because Messapic and Albanian are certainly not related.

.
we also have
.
.
https://www.omniglot.com/writing/messapic.htm
.
I doubt messapic is illyrian, my opnion..........messapic is messapic, dalmatian is dalmatian , pannonian is pannonian etc etc

[Nik]

doubt it
.
from studies
The other hypothesis is that Illyrian is related to Messapic, a language spoken in Apulia (the "heel" of Italy). There are indeed ties between the two areas: because northern winds are common in the Adriatic Sea, it is easy to sail from the Illyrian islands to the the opposite shore. Returning home, these sailors brought back products that were stored in Apulian pottery, which has been found in great quantities along the Illyrian shore.
Because we know so little about the Illyrian language, these hypotheses cannot be tested. However, we are certain that they cannot both be true because Messapic and Albanian are certainly not related.

.
we also have
.
.
https://www.omniglot.com/writing/messapic.htm
.
I doubt messapic is illyrian, my opnion..........messapic is messapic, dalmatian is dalmatian , pannonian is pannonian etc etc

...Scottish is Scottish, Irish is Irish, English is English. Am I right?