Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

[Salento]

doubt it

from studies
The other hypothesis is that Illyrian is related to Messapic, a language spoken in Apulia (the "heel" of Italy). There are indeed ties between the two areas: because northern winds are common in the Adriatic Sea, it is easy to sail from the Illyrian islands to the the opposite shore. Returning home, these sailors brought back products that were stored in Apulian pottery, which has been found in great quantities along the Illyrian shore.
Because we know so little about the Illyrian language, these hypotheses cannot be tested. However, we are certain that they cannot both be true because Messapic and Albanian are certainly not related.

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we also have
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we also have
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https://www.omniglot.com/writing/messapic.htm

.
I doubt messapic is illyrian, my opnion..........messapic is messapic, dalmatian is dalmatian , pannonian is pannonian etc etc

from Terra dei Messapi:

imo some of my results hide Illyrian DNA in Albania, RO, Serbia, West Balkans, ...

[Johane Derite]

Is it possible the Dorians were Illyrians that invaded Greece and adopted the Greek language, much like the Normans adopted the Romance language?


300 tumuli in Piera, the Makedones' home according to Hesiod, archaeologically show that Illyrians & Phrygians ruled there until at least 650 BC. The archaeology of prehistoric Macedonia is uniform & likewise shows no Mycenaean (Greek) influence, lending support to the school of thought that rejects Macedonian as a greek dialect.

[Aspar]

Is it possible the Dorians were Illyrians that invaded Greece and adopted the Greek language, much like the Normans adopted the Romance language?


300 tumuli in Piera, the Makedones' home according to Hesiod, archaeologically show that Illyrians & Phrygians ruled there until at least 650 BC. The archaeology of prehistoric Macedonia is uniform & likewise shows no Mycenaean (Greek) influence, lending support to the school of thought that rejects Macedonian as a greek dialect.

I think that is a scenario that shouldn't be dismissed but one that should be consider and looked upon!
I even had a thread about the similarities between the Illyrians and the real Hellenes, the Dorians, who brought the name but were eventually Mycenaeanized and adopted the language of the people they conquered, much like what happened with the old Bulgars!
Here is the thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-and-Illyrians

[LABERIA]

I think that is a scenario that shouldn't be dismissed but one that should be consider and looked upon!
I even had a thread about the similarities between the Illyrians and the real Hellenes, the Dorians, who brought the name but were eventually Mycenaeanized and adopted the language of the people they conquered, much like what happened with the old Bulgars!
Here is the thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-and-Illyrians

Aspar, Hylli is still used in North Albania and is translated in English star. In Standart Albanian is yll.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylli_i_Dritës
It is used also as a surname:
2. Dritan Hylli
http://www.gazetatema.net/2017/06/27...hen-deputetet/

[Nik]

Worth mentioning is the Northern Illyrian tribe of the Hyllinii in modern Croatia.

[Ernekar]

Attachment 10840
I was just looking at these inscriptions from a medieval church in albania.

The top line makes sense in albanian:
"Bergiene mame e perentis" - virgjen/virgjer mame e perendise

But i am not able to read the first and last words of the 2nd sentence.
The last word in that sentence look something like 'raitoreloi'.
Any albanians here who knows what this word could mean?
Looking at the latin inscription(insc. 3), 'raitoreloi' should mean something like servant

EDIT: at a second glance, , maybe it is a 'f' and not a 'r', which would make sense 'faitoreloi' - as in albanian fajtore(maybe in albanian, its a sinner, and not a servant like it was in latin)

[Johane Derite]

The image attachment feature doesnt workon eupedia. Upload your image to imgur first, and then copy its Url and then insert image from url (unceck the box that says retrieve remote file.
Im curious about this inscription so would like to see it

[Ernekar]

Thanks, i forgot it didn't work:


1. Albanian
2. Greek
3. Some kind of romanian or vlach or something
4. Latin

The 2 middle words in the second sentence of the albanian version, 'pre nis' are pretty straighforward in mordern albanian - 'per nesh'

[Johane Derite]

This is my attempt at a transcription

βήργιηνε Μάμε έ περεντισ (Vergeene Mame e Perentis)
δεφ πρέ ​νέε φαιτόρελοι ( Deph pre nee phaitoreloi)

how old is this inscription?

[Ernekar]

the church is from 1200's, while insciptions in this church only start after 1400's. But i don't know the exact age of this one.

[bigsnake49]

If my Greek does not fail me it says Queen Virgin Mother help your servants (subjects).

Hmmm...I did not know that Old Albanian & Vlach used the Greek alphabet.

Also both Old Albanian and Vlach seem to have borrowed the root Βιργ-virg from the Latin. Old Albanian also seems to borrow "perentis" from the Latin.

[Fatherland]

Worth mentioning is the Northern Illyrian tribe of the Hyllinii in modern Croatia.

Romanian map covering as late as 3rd-4th century AD, shows non-Romanized Albanians(Illyrians) very far north still.

[LABERIA]

Romanian map covering as late as 3rd-4th century AD, shows non-Romanized Albanians(Illyrians) very far north still.

It's a Romanian map and it's not supported by any historical evidence. Romanians have their problems with Hungarians, this is the context of this map and some papers written by Romanian scholars. It's not a credible map.

[Piro Ilir]

doubt it
.
from studies
The other hypothesis is that Illyrian is related to Messapic, a language spoken in Apulia (the "heel" of Italy). There are indeed ties between the two areas: because northern winds are common in the Adriatic Sea, it is easy to sail from the Illyrian islands to the the opposite shore. Returning home, these sailors brought back products that were stored in Apulian pottery, which has been found in great quantities along the Illyrian shore.
Because we know so little about the Illyrian language, these hypotheses cannot be tested. However, we are certain that they cannot both be true because Messapic and Albanian are certainly not related.

.
we also have
.
.
https://www.omniglot.com/writing/messapic.htm
.
I doubt messapic is illyrian, my opnion..........messapic is messapic, dalmatian is dalmatian , pannonian is pannonian etc etc

Because there are winds in favouring the sailing between the two regions, it doesn't means Mesapians were Illyrian.
The maximum we may say on Messapians it's that they were related to Illyrians, which means they spoke a related language. If they descent from the sane ancestors, they may have split before the iron age(1200bce), somewhere during the bronze age , probably 1600bce and onwards until 1200bce. This makes little connection to modern Albanian as long as Albanian descent from Illyrian and Illyrian split from Messapian long before. Hence, don't expect to find many similarities between modern Albanian and ancient Messapian. We know who really were Illyrian during the iron age according to the Greek myth, and Mesapians weren't listed among these people.

[Piro Ilir]

Is it possible the Dorians were Illyrians that invaded Greece and adopted the Greek language, much like the Normans adopted the Romance language?


300 tumuli in Piera, the Makedones' home according to Hesiod, archaeologically show that Illyrians & Phrygians ruled there until at least 650 BC. The archaeology of prehistoric Macedonia is uniform & likewise shows no Mycenaean (Greek) influence, lending support to the school of thought that rejects Macedonian as a greek dialect.

If we read about the founding myth of the Royal Macedonian house, we will see the truth about them. They were just Hellenized Illyrians. In what extent was the Hellenization is a matter of debate.

"The Argean brothers were expelled from Peloponnese, and went living among Illyrians. They settled there and founded their kingdom" etc etc.

[Sile]

If we read about the founding myth of the Royal Macedonian house, we will see the truth about them. They were just Hellenized Illyrians. In what extent was the Hellenization is a matter of debate.
"The Argean brothers were expelled from Peloponnese, and went living among Illyrians. They settled there and founded their kingdom" etc etc.

The Thracians, having arrived first, occupied the eastern part of the peninsula and Macedonia. The Greeks came after the Thracians, about 2500 B. C., making their way through the valleys of Axios. They stopped at the Western part of the Balkan peninsula and Macedonia, which was seized from the Thracians. The latter in turn pushed out the Macedonian tribe of the Dorians (whom Kretchmer identifies with the Douriopes of Macedonia) and forced them to leave the country around the mountains of Olympus and Pindus (Herodotus, Pindar, Strabo) and settled in the land to the south of the Kambounian mountains
.
Thracian and Macedonian Kingship
William S. Greenwalt
Book Editor(s): Julia Valeva
Emil Nankov
Denver Graninger
First published: 16 March 2015
.
conclusion....Macedonians are a Thracian-Dorian mix.......with later Greek

[Johane Derite]

In 337 BC, after a conflict with his father, Alexander the Great leaves his mother in Epirus and then goes in exile to Illyria, alone.


Where did he stay? Among which of the Illyrians?


This chapter is missing from the history of Alexander.

[Johane Derite]

Alexander the Great's father, Phillip II, spent ten years in Illyria, in the home of the Dardanian King Bardylis as a political hostage.


Later in his life he married Bardylis's daughter (or granddaughter) Audata. (bit odd)

[Johane Derite]

Some believe that the unexcavated Gjinoc Tumulus in Kosovo houses King Bardylis' tomb. With an 84 meter diameter & 10 meter elevation, it is the biggest tumulus in Kosova. Constructed around the Iron Age, a lone pear tree stands on top. Considering that Bardylis was super powerful and extended his kingdom into Macedonia as well as epirus, and that he was contemporaneous with Phillip, who's tomb was found buried in a similar tumulus in vergina, its a shame we have no funding to excavate.

[Johane Derite]

St. Jerome, the Illyrian who translated the Bible from Greek into Latin. He testified that he spoke in his native Illyrian tongue in the countryside among his people in his commentary on Isaiah 7.19.

[blevins13]

St. Jerome, the Illyrian who translated the Bible from Greek into Latin. He testified that he spoke in his native Illyrian tongue in the countryside among his people in his commentary on Isaiah 7.19.

Very interesting


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

[Johane Derite]

Scanderbeg sends a response letter to Prince Giovanni of Taranto, whom he scolds for having referred to the Albanians as "sheep".

One of the few rare documents that affords us an intimate insight into the personality and character of Scanderbeg.

An excerpt:

[Salento]

Scanderbeg sends a response letter to Prince Giovanni of Taranto, whom he scolds for having referred to the Albanians as "sheep".
One of the few rare documents that affords us an intimate insight into the personality and character of Scanderbeg.
An excerpt:

To put it in some perspective, locals used to give nicknames to people and places, it Wouldn't have been unusual for Prince Giovanni of Taranto to do the same. (people sometimes overreact)

Out of respect I won’t say how they called other Nations, but for some perspective, here are some Nicknames of local Towns:

Acquarica = patimori Complainers
Alezio = picciuttari
Aradeo= carnocchiulari
Arnesano = mozzicasanti Saint Biter
Casarano = poppiti Villain
Castrì = cuccuaci Owls
Cavallino = figghi te muli Jackasses
Copertino = macinnulari
Corigliano = mangani
Corsano = Carcagni tosti
Cutrofiano = cutamari cantariedri
Galatina = garze larghe
Giurdignano = tignusi
Guagnano = tuttu sensu
Lequile = mangiaracali
Leverano = ranocchiulari frogs
Lizzanello = ciamarri big snails
Martano = pacci crazy
Melendugno = musi moddhri soft lips
Miggiano = mancia paparina
Monteroni = scarpapulita
Muro = porci pigs
Novoli = ufani
Otranto=ventrijanca
Presicce = mascarani
Racale= pacci e pisciammare
Salve = ventri Ianchi
San pietro = stompacrita
Sogliano =ventre bianca
Taurisano=zanguni
Tricase = cucuzzari

lol

[Johane Derite]

To put it in some perspective, locals used to give nicknames to people and places, it Wouldn't have been unusual for Prince Giovanni of Taranto to do the same. (people sometimes overreact)

Out of respect I won’t say how they called other Nations, but for some perspective, here are some Nicknames of local Towns:

Acquarica = patimori Complainers
Alezio = picciuttari
Aradeo= carnocchiulari
Arnesano = mozzicasanti Saint Biter
Casarano = poppiti Villain
Castrì = cuccuaci Owls
Cavallino = figghi te muli Jackasses
Copertino = macinnulari
Corigliano = mangani
Corsano = Carcagni tosti
Cutrofiano = cutamari cantariedri
Galatina = garze larghe
Giurdignano = tignusi
Guagnano = tuttu sensu
Lequile = mangiaracali
Leverano = ranocchiulari frogs
Lizzanello = ciamarri big snails
Martano = pacci crazy
Melendugno = musi moddhri soft lips
Miggiano = mancia paparina
Monteroni = scarpapulita
Muro = porci pigs
Novoli = ufani
Otranto=ventrijanca
Presicce = mascarani
Racale= pacci e pisciammare
Salve = ventri Ianchi
San pietro = stompacrita
Sogliano =ventre bianca
Taurisano=zanguni
Tricase = cucuzzari

lol

This was Giovanni's original letter from 10 October:

"“Iohannes Antonius princeps Tarenti Georgio Albano salutem.

- Decebat te, quem belloclarum fortuna fecerat, hostes, quos aliquando pro Christiana religione propulsandoselegeras, ad internitionem usque persequi, et non illis paululum irritatis relicto campo inItaliam adversus Christianos arma proferre. Que tibi causa contra me est? Quid ego5 aliquando in te peccavi? Quae unquam inter nos antea fuerunt iurgia? Dispoliasti agrosmeos, et in meos subditos crudeliter debacchatus es, bellumque prius intulisti, quamindixisti. Dicis te pugilem fortissimum esse Christiane religionis - et eam insequens gentem,que iure merito Christianissima vocitatur. Adversus Francos convertisti ferrum, quorumest Siciliae regnum. Sperasti te forsitan adversus effeminatos Thurcos aut imbelles Greculos pugnam conserturum, quorum consueveris terga ferire? Alios hic viros invenies!Quamvis horribilem tuum aspectum ferunt, nemo tamen faciem tuam fugiet; ultro telacesset miles noster, nec fecem Albanam timebit Italicus sanguis. Novimus genus vestrum,quasi pecora estimamus Albanos. Pudet tam vilem gentem hostis habere loco, nec tutantum tibi negocii arrogasses, si potuisses domi manere. Fugisti Thurcorum impetum, et cum propriam tueri domum nequires, alienam invadere cogitasti. Deceptus es, nisi prodomo queris sepulchrum!

Vale!"

[Sile]

Scanderbeg sends a response letter to Prince Giovanni of Taranto, whom he scolds for having referred to the Albanians as "sheep".

One of the few rare documents that affords us an intimate insight into the personality and character of Scanderbeg.

An excerpt:

I am correct again
.
now you need to check on the 14 epirote tribes and see which have albanian affiliated names