Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

[Nik]

I am correct again
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now you need to check on the 14 epirote tribes and see which have albanian affiliated names

What's your "point"? Not that you ever had any.

[Johane Derite]

Scanderbeg invokes Epirotes as ancestors to Albanians. At the time, the term meant Albanian (even Liebniz named Albanian "Epirotic").
Obscure numismatics & literary sources depict a Macedon-Epirote helmet similar to his, otherwise unattested.
Inspiration? How did he know of it?


See also the letter from Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, in which he called Albanians sheep and provoked Scanderbegs harsh response.
Some other interesting details, he knows Scanderbeg as "Georgio Albano" and alludes to Scanderbeg's conflicts with Turkish & Greek forces back home:

[Piro Ilir]

as I said many times before .....
gheg albanians = dardani ......linguistically close to thraki
tosk albanians = epirote ........linguistically close to greek/doric
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all you need to fix is the problem of some ancient historians classify the 14 epirote tribes as Illyrian ..........this is purely to make the Epirotes be non-greek or as ancient greeks state barbarians

Illyrians weren't present in south Balkans during the bronze age. At that period,as archeology suggests, were still dwelling further north in northern Balkanic areas. They did spread further south only at the fall of bronze age, maybe being part of the so called 'sea people'. Epirot tribes of iron age, were of Illyrian stock whom got heavily Hellenized along with their kin Macedons. There's a chance that proto Dorians were of proto Illyrian origin. In my opinion, proto Illyrians during the bronze age were dwelling in regions in northwest Balkans, then at 1200 bce with the end of bronze age they moved further south and whet in south Italy. In southern Illyrian iron age areas there's a discontinuity in archeological material, while in northern areas we have a continuity. This suggest to an iron age wave of migration from the Illyrians. Iron age Dardani and Tribali were Illyrian, while in bronze age they probably were Tracian.

[Piro Ilir]

in Italian literature ( regional italian republics ) by scholars at the period of medieval times and renaissance times, the albanians are always referred to as the epirotes

Yes, it has an regional use rather than an ethnic one. It is an exonym. Do you have any idea how many people and places were called with the root word 'Alba'? They all have zero connection with Balkanic Albanians.

[Piro Ilir]

There is no Iberian language ( there is castilian, catalan, portuguese etc ) , there is no Scandinavian language ( there is norwegian, swedish, danish etc ) , there is no British language ( there is english, scottish, irish, welsh etc ).......this is because they are geographical areas....the same as Illyria, it is a geographical term for an area in ancient times representing west balkans, it consists of many tribes and so there will never be a Illyrian language found, the languages would be dalmatian, liburnian or pannonian and any other tribe in the illyrian geographical area
Only "illyrian" personnel names have been found from noricum ( austria ) to modern Montenegro........

According to ancient Roman and Greek writers, Illyrians were a distinct ethnic group, composed by many tribes. Today we know who were the core of this ethnos. Japoded and Dalmatians in the north were Illyrian, while Liburni and Messapian probably might have been related to them in an earlier period

[Piro Ilir]

There is no written language of illyrian ever found .....

There are plenty of languages in planet earth with no written records. Illyrian would not be the first one. Albanian language has a very late writing record either.

[Piro Ilir]

Easy to speculate when you have no written language. Nobody can contradict you. Linguists can take 7-10 words and weave a whole theory about history and archaeology around it. Never seen anything like it. They put conspiracy theorists to shame.

All the history science and all what we take for granted today, at their beginning were just assumptions or whether unproven theses.

[Piro Ilir]

Is it possible the Dorians were Illyrians that invaded Greece and adopted the Greek language, much like the Normans adopted the Romance language?


300 tumuli in Piera, the Makedones' home according to Hesiod, archaeologically show that Illyrians & Phrygians ruled there until at least 650 BC. The archaeology of prehistoric Macedonia is uniform & likewise shows no Mycenaean (Greek) influence, lending support to the school of thought that rejects Macedonian as a greek dialect.

This very interesting. We know for sure today that Phrygians and proto Armenians came from Balkans during the end of bronze age, when Hittite hegemony collapsed. In my opinion, proto Dorians were of Phrygian or Illyrian stock. However, Macedonian and Epirot regions shows somewhat a discontinuity in archeology between bronze and iron age. It means that this area was inhabited by a different people. I support the thesis that proto Macedonians and proto Epirotes were proto Illyrian migrating from the north during the end of the bronze age, and invaded Apulia, Epirus, Greek Macedonia, little parts of Thessaly, and maybe, I repeat maybe devastating the Mycenaean civilization.

[Piro Ilir]

Worth mentioning is the Northern Illyrian tribe of the Hyllinii in modern Croatia.

Do you have anything about them? Map location or any other material to read?

[Sile]

This very interesting. We know for sure today that Phrygians and proto Armenians came from Balkans during the end of bronze age, when Hittite hegemony collapsed. In my opinion, proto Dorians were of Phrygian or Illyrian stock. However, Macedonian and Epirot regions shows somewhat a discontinuity in archeology between bronze and iron age. It means that this area was inhabited by a different people. I support the thesis that proto Macedonians and proto Epirotes were proto Illyrian migrating from the north during the end of the bronze age, and invaded Apulia, Epirus, Greek Macedonia, little parts of Thessaly, and maybe, I repeat maybe devastating the Mycenaean civilization.

where did you see that the phygians where in europe ................i only have that they remained in central anatolia and where fighting the lydians in circa 550BC

[Piro Ilir]

The Thracians, having arrived first, occupied the eastern part of the peninsula and Macedonia. The Greeks came after the Thracians, about 2500 B. C., making their way through the valleys of Axios. They stopped at the Western part of the Balkan peninsula and Macedonia, which was seized from the Thracians. The latter in turn pushed out the Macedonian tribe of the Dorians (whom Kretchmer identifies with the Douriopes of Macedonia) and forced them to leave the country around the mountains of Olympus and Pindus (Herodotus, Pindar, Strabo) and settled in the land to the south of the Kambounian mountains
.
Thracian and Macedonian Kingship
William S. Greenwalt
Book Editor(s): Julia Valeva
Emil Nankov
Denver Graninger
First published: 16 March 2015
.
conclusion....Macedonians are a Thracian-Dorian mix.......with later Greek

Okay, this is a theory and it might have been true, but anyway my post wasn't about the bronze age but it was about the iron age. Macedonians that we know and their kingdom were formed during the iron age. It's an whole total historical context. In my opinion proto Illyrians weren't present there during the bronze age . They were still in the north Balkans according to archeology.

[LABERIA]

There are plenty of languages in planet earth with no written records. Illyrian would not be the first one. Albanian language has a very late writing record either.

From all the Paleo-Balkanic languages, how many were also written languages?

[Nik]

Do you have anything about them? Map location or any other material to read?

Google Hyllini and it'll be very easy to find books and info.

[Piro Ilir]

St. Jerome, the Illyrian who translated the Bible from Greek into Latin. He testified that he spoke in his native Illyrian tongue in the countryside among his people in his commentary on Isaiah 7.19.

There's a long list of languages spoken within the Roman empire's territory until it crumbled. Only few native languages did died during Roman occupation, and Illyrian certainly wasn't among these.

[Piro Ilir]

What's your "point"? Not that you ever had any.

I guess the same as the other guy ,'Apsburg' from the other thread; 'nebulosity'

[Piro Ilir]

where did you see that the phygians where in europe ................i only have that they remained in central anatolia and where fighting the lydians in circa 550BC

It is well known that Phryges moved in Anatolia from the Balkans circa 1200-1050 bce. They spoke a different language from their neighbours as Luwians , Lydians etc. Armenian is thought to descent from Phrygian either. Both languages are accepted by modern scholars as coming from Balkans. Whether ancient Greek historians places them somewhere in current southern Albania with the name 'Bryges'. Bryges of south Albania were an Illyrian tribe whose roots were Phrygian according to ancient Greeks.

Another important thing to add would be that according to linguists it looks that proto Armenians and proto Albanians dwelled in proximity to each other in a very distant time from now. Probably circa 1200 bce and earlier.

[Piro Ilir]

From all the Paleo-Balkanic languages, how many were also written languages?

Neither one , except ancient Greek. Even though, we have today little Tracian sentences. Two of them actually. The Illyrian case seems more hopeless. Illyrians were considered a lot more barbarian than the rest of non Greek people. I'm not surprised that we have never found any Illyrian record

[Piro Ilir]

Google Hyllini and it'll be very easy to find books and info.

Thank you.

[Yetos]

tired

some here must realize this

Illyrians came very late, and pushed Phrygians,

At Pieria lived all 3
Greeks
Myceneans
Pierioi (thracian tribe of Orpheus)

Karanos establish the Makedonian Kingdom around 750 BC

from the battle of Erigoni we know the limits of Illyrians and Greeks
but we do not know the 'borders of Brygian and Greeks,
since we only know where they were settled.

Illyrian spoke a Celtic language (with possibly some Germanic), and remnants of this language exist in all central and West Balkans.
Most closer to Ilyyrian is some Aromani dialects, than Albanian.

Period.

[blevins13]

So Albanian is close to Illyrian....this is a great step forward from our neighbors.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

[Nik]

So Albanian is close to Illyrian....this is a great step forward from our neighbors.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

You understand why the world is doomed when a nobody from a village (or should I say vilatz) in Greece gets to decide which language is closer to an undocumented language such as Illyrian and then drops the mic by saying period.

[Piro Ilir]

tired

some here must realize this

Illyrians came very late, and pushed Phrygians,

At Pieria lived all 3
Greeks
Myceneans
Pierioi (thracian tribe of Orpheus)

Karanos establish the Makedonian Kingdom around 750 BC

from the battle of Erigoni we know the limits of Illyrians and Greeks
but we do not know the 'borders of Brygian and Greeks,
since we only know where they were settled.

Illyrian spoke a Celtic language (with possibly some Germanic), and remnants of this language exist in all central and West Balkans.
Most closer to Ilyyrian is some Aromani dialects, than Albanian.

Period.

What do you mean by very late? Illyrians were present in north west Balkans since the beginning of the bronze age. They expanded further south during the dark age of 1200-1050 bce.
During the bronze age proto Phrygians were settled probably in ancient areas of Macedonia and Epirus, or adjacent regions. We know there were Illyrian tribes called Bryges in southern Albania and current Macedonia.

According to the Macedonian founding myth, it was claimed that Argean brothers were expelled from Peloponnese and went living among Illyrians, where they settled later their own kingdom".
This means that ancient iron age Macedonia and Epirus were dwelled by Illyrians. Political organization and cultural environment were extremely Hellenic, especially Ionic.
Worth mentioning that Persians called these people, Greeks with hat like shields. Illyrian hats were like mushrooms

[Sile]

Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula) (see pdf below).
In the eastern vicinity of this group there was the Thraco-Illyrian group which did the same thing, but only to the labiovelars followed by back vowels (*a, *o), while the labiovelars followed by a front vowel (e, i) were palatalized along with regular velar sounds. One may conclude that in Thraco-Illyrian the phenomenon of palatalization before a front vowel took place in about the same time as the one of the bi-labialization of the labiovelars. I should emphasize that bi-labialization of labiovelars did not reach the peripheral dialects such as Insular Celtic, Latino-Faliscan and Epirote dialect (from which Proto-Albanian evolved) (see ultra). I should also mention that the palatalization of velars followed by a front vowel affects all velars (and dentals) and it has nothing to do with the distinction centum/satem.
.
http://onomastics.ru/sites/default/f...8.15.2.017.pdf

[Johane Derite]

Scanderbeg invokes Epirotes as ancestors to Albanians. At the time, the term meant Albanian (even Liebniz named Albanian "Epirotic").
Obscure numismatics & literary sources depict a Macedon-Epirote helmet similar to his, otherwise unattested.
Inspiration? How did he know of it?

Leka's Kanun (Alexander's Law) is a strict set of laws among Albanians.


It's linked to medieval prince Lekë Dukagjini despite being attested before & far beyond his reach.


Leka likely refers to Alexander the Great.


In the south, Albanians also had Pirro's Kanun (Pyrrhus' Law).

[Piro Ilir]

Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula) (see pdf below).
In the eastern vicinity of this group there was the Thraco-Illyrian group which did the same thing, but only to the labiovelars followed by back vowels (*a, *o), while the labiovelars followed by a front vowel (e, i) were palatalized along with regular velar sounds. One may conclude that in Thraco-Illyrian the phenomenon of palatalization before a front vowel took place in about the same time as the one of the bi-labialization of the labiovelars. I should emphasize that bi-labialization of labiovelars did not reach the peripheral dialects such as Insular Celtic, Latino-Faliscan and Epirote dialect (from which Proto-Albanian evolved) (see ultra). I should also mention that the palatalization of velars followed by a front vowel affects all velars (and dentals) and it has nothing to do with the distinction centum/satem.
.
http://onomastics.ru/sites/default/f...8.15.2.017.pdf

Your theory Herr doesn't held water if take into account the Y-dna of Celts, ancient and whether the modern one. Ev13 and J2b2 are absent in true Celtic areas.
According to ancient Greeks, the Illyrians and Celts had common origins. However, this may have been due to a Celtic influence upon Illyrians during the iron age. Scordisci were a Celtic tribe which was Illyrianized later.