Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

[Nik]

Laberia, don't waste ur time with Garrick as he won't listen. He keeps repeating the same stuff all the time like a robot. Even his sentences look like a robot speaking. I believe he's using Google Translator so even if he wanted to get ur point, half of the meaning will be lost in the translation.

I told him very clearly that even with his theory that Albanian is Thracian, that means Albanians are indigenous in Kosovo (genetics) and instead of Dardanian (Central Thracian or Thraco-Illyrian) they speak Northern Thracian. Big deal, its still Thracian isnt it? But he didnt get it at all. He just understood that the Dardani are Carpi.

He still doesn't get it that even if Albanian was "created" near the Carpathians, that could have been thousands of years BC and not recently.

And about my post about Arborea, I didn't say it's true, nor that I believe in it. I just said interesting, just like a Harry Potter book, nothing more. Interesting fantasy.

 

[Garrick]

I didn`t asked you what Michael L. Galaty, Charles Watkinson says.I asked you what is in your opinion the connection between Stalin and Enver Hoxha from one side and Ptolemy from the other side.For the rest of your post, decide what is your definitive theorie and explain it. It`s not an normal behaviour, searching in internet everything what is against the connection between Albanians and illyrians and posting here. Many times, this authors quoted by you are in contradiction with each other.The bibliography about Albanians, Illyrians, etc, is enormus and you can find everything.From the other side, you can not say that serbs are an paleolitic population of Balcans. So, nobody will take seriously what you post here, if you continue with this style.

I never said that Serbs are paleolithic population, I sad for I haplogroup.

Haplogroup and nation are two different world.

New IE encyclopedias, grammars, etc. don't give link between Illyrian and Albanian because authors say that there are no evidence.

It is clear when we know that Illyrian extinct in 2nd century, and unfortunately no Illyrian scripts, as Messapic for example.

And all what Albanians do in this 22 pages are speculations, because today no one serious scientist will say Albanian is Illyrian and to gives any proof for it. We all lose time here, there is nothing new.

Dr Forston

(quote)
Two untestable hypothesis about Illyrian's connection to other languages are widely held: that Illyrian is the same as or closely related to Messapic, and that Illyrian is the ancestor of Albanian. The first hypothesis is based on the close cultural connections between the Messapians and Illyrians, and on certain similarities between some linguistic elements. The second hypothesis has very little, if any linuistic support, but makes geographic sense... The possible relationship to Messapic does not help, for the Messapic inscriptions evince no obvious similarities to Albanian.
(end of quote)

What Dr Fortson say:

1) Hypothese about Illyrian and Albanian connection is untestable.

2) This hypothesis has no linguist support

3) Messapic nothing to do with Albanian.

You can see that today's linguists don't think that Albanian has link with Illyrian. Yes some older linguists before 50-200 years thought it but in time when there were much smaller knowledge about subject.

Also, if someone finds link Messapic with Illyrian, hypothesis about Illyrian and Albanian connection will be rejected for all time.

Only what Dr Fortson says it is geographical sense, and everyone can see it, Albanians (and other nations) live on land which once was Illyrian.

And Dr Russu gave explanation why is so, because Carpi migrated to Albania from Northern Romania and beyond.

 

[LABERIA]

Laberia, don't waste ur time with Garrick as he won't listen. He keeps repeating the same stuff all the time like a robot. Even his sentences look like a robot speaking. I believe he's using Google Translator so even if he wanted to get ur point, half of the meaning will be lost in the translation.

I told him very clearly that even with his theory that Albanian is Thracian, that means Albanians are indigenous in Kosovo (genetics) and instead of Dardanian (Central Thracian or Thraco-Illyrian) they speak Northern Thracian. Big deal, its still Thracian isnt it? But he didnt get it at all. He just understood that the Dardani are Carpi.

He still doesn't get it that even if Albanian was "created" near the Carpathians, that could have been thousands of years BC and not recently.

And about my post about Arborea, I didn't say it's true, nor that I believe in it. I just said interesting, just like a Harry Potter book, nothing more. Interesting fantasy.

Yes, sometimes i have the impression that he is just an software and they have forget to update, so he continue to repeat the same copy paste.
The thracian theory has been debunked exhaustively by Malcolm.
This romanian theories are just ridiculous. The reasons of this theories from some unknown romanian scholars is this flame wars between Hungarians and romanians. To put it simple, there are around 170 romanian words that can be explained with the help of Albanian language. The reason is because because the ancestors of today Albanians and Romanians, the Illyrians and Dacians, shared an common "border". There were no serbs in the middle. Serbs were still far away. Also in Dacia Romans settled some illyrians as miners. But Hungarian nationalists support the theory that the today romanians are just some Albanian who emigrated in today Romania as emigrants. Of course this is not true. The answer of this so-called romanian "scholars" is that in contrary Albanians migrated from today Romania in Albania, the "famous" koçi-boçi theory of Garrick. Do you understand what's happen?

 

[LABERIA]

I never said that Serbs are paleolithic population, I sad for I haplogroup.

Haplogroup and nation are two different world.

New IE encyclopedias, grammars, etc. don't give link between Illyrian and Albanian because authors say that there are no evidence.

It is clear when we know that Illyrian extinct in 2nd century, and unfortunately no Illyrian scripts, as Messapic for example.

And all what Albanians do in this 22 pages are speculations, because today no one serious scientist will say Albanian is Illyrian and to gives any proof for it. We all lose time here, there is nothing new.

Dr Forston

(quote)
Two untestable hypothesis about Illyrian's connection to other languages are widely held: that Illyrian is the same as or closely related to Messapic, and that Illyrian is the ancestor of Albanian. The first hypothesis is based on the close cultural connections between the Messapians and Illyrians, and on certain similarities between some linguistic elements. The second hypothesis has very little, if any linuistic support, but makes geographic sense... The possible relationship to Messapic does not help, for the Messapic inscriptions evince no obvious similarities to Albanian.
(end of quote)

What Dr Fortson say:

1) Hypothese about Illyrian and Albanian connection is untestable.

2) This hypothesis has no linguist support

3) Messapic nothing to do with Albanian.

You can see that today's linguists don't think that Albanian has link with Illyrian. Yes some older linguists before 50-200 years thought it but in time when there were much smaller knowledge about subject.

Also, if someone finds link Messapic with Illyrian, hypothesis about Illyrian and Albanian connection will be rejected for all time.

Only what Dr Fortson says it is geographical sense, and everyone can see it, Albanians (and other nations) live on land which once was Illyrian.

And Dr Russu gave explanation why is so, because Carpi migrated to Albania from Northern Romania and beyond.

But my question was another Garrick. Why you don't answer to my question?

 

[Garrick]

I haven't been following the thread, but just from the activity feed I can see that there are lots of emotive words being tossed around. Stop insulting each other or I'm going to have to go back and read some of these things, and people might not like the consequences.

Angela
I understand that I'm one part of this and you're right. Therefore I do not want to talk more about discussions of two great friends Stalin and Enver Hoxha about Illyrians and others, and how they tailored history, and it will not be their talks here in forum.

 

[Nik]

Angela
I understand that I'm one part of this and you're right. Therefore I do not want to talk more about discussions of two great friends Stalin and Enver Hoxha about Illyrians and others, and how they tailored history, and it will not be their talks here in forum.

Many people like u seem to use this Enver Hoxha card, so here's my answer to u: FCK Enver Hoxha and FCK Stalin and whoever supported them.

Enver Hoxha destroyed the Albanian society, arrested and executed all the intellectuals and patriots (numbering 80,000 or 10% of Albania's population), destroyed the Catholic clergy on behalf of Serbs, crushed and massacred the Northern Anti-Communist uprising with help from the Yugoslavian army entering North through Montenegro with Yugoslav forces in order to slaughter them and execute without trial.

Despite him officially "being in war" with Yugoslavia later on, every Albanian that crossed the border illegally to Montenegro in order to escape in USA, was returned to the Albanians, an agreement which didn't exist with Greece.

Enver Hoxha comes from an obscure family from Gjirokastra, Albania. Nobody from Gjirokastra knows who they were or where they came from so people started to wonder. Theories exist about him and his wife being Bosnian (him) and Gorani (his wife comes from that area), on top of their "best friend" and later President Ramiz Alia being proven that is Bosnian from Shkodra.

So to hell with all of them. Im getting sick every time I read their names as great nationalists etc. They crippled my country to a degree that even the Ottoman Empire would be jealous for the moral and spiritual destruction they achieved by breaking the people psychologically for 50 years.

 

[Glauk]

Sorry for the offtopic.

If you are interested in Albanian language, this website offers the listener audio recordings from various regions.

http://dialects.albanianlanguage.net/

 

[Yetos]

Italian papers state..........Ducagini d'Arbania.


This family came from mount Scardo on the border of Dardania and Albania

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...EIUDAJ#v=onepage&q=Ducagini d'Arbania&f=false

read pages 117 and 118

Li Ducagini habitano il monte Scardo a confini di Preferemo, o Prifdrena

The family where christians and spoke mainly Latin ..............I am not saying that they are not albanians

Remeni Aromanians, De facto,

 

[LABERIA]

Remeni Aromanians, De facto,

Can you explain who are this Remeni Aromanians, De facto, pls?

 

[Dibran]

I could be completely wrong as I know Jack about linguistics, but I feel other than partial genetics and cultural borrowings that we have nothing to do with illyrian. My bet is thracian or Dardanian (which has been debunked as being illyrian) .

 

[LABERIA]

Then i don't know why you asking about etymology of the city it is derrived from Bel=White and Grad=fortress,city,enclosure etc thus in present day language the meaning will be white city,you have present day Berat in south-central Albania that was once called Belgrad with the same etymology.
All this suggest strong Slavic presence in the area in medieval times,how they become Albanian i don't even want to mention the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians were doing on the Christians or non-Albanians at some period of time,should i mention the atrocities of Ali Pasha on that region destruction of the very prosperous Vlach city of Moskopolje which is remembered to this day,people had no other choice there as they were unarmed against an armed groups.
In the region you live the very south of Albania were living the Vajunites or Vojnitsi meaning "soldiers" the territory they was later named after them as Vagenetia. Many toponyms in the region of northern Epirus (modern-day southern Albania) still have names received by the name of this tribe.
The name of Vanegetia survived until at least the 13th century.Similar toponyms like Viyanite or Viyantije survived until the 16th century when they were replaced with the name Delvinë which also became an official name of the Ottoman sanjak of Delvina.The territory around the river Aoös (or Vojuša/Vjosë, today in southern Albania) was probably also named after this tribe,Shushice(river) Bistrice(river) Selenice,Novosele,Bogove,Leskovik further south Konitsa might be in Greek side near mount Smolikas etc

No you have to mention and to explain to us how this slavs become Albanians. And this time don`t start again to answer about things that are not related to our discussion. Don`t forget is your credibility in discussion here.Go ahead, tell us your theory.

 

[Milan]

No you have to mention and to explain to us how this slavs become Albanians. And this time don`t start again to answer about things that are not related to our discussion. Don`t forget is your credibility in discussion here.Go ahead, tell us your theory.

Before i translate and post much more you read and answer to all this first,only southern albania.
Read this book;
Francois Pouqueville, in his 1820 book Travels in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia, and Thessaly described Bulgarian villages in the Devol region.
What happened to them and where they went?
In the late 14th century, Venetian records note a number of Bulgarians (de genere Bulgarorum) from southern Albania being sold as slaves, suggestiong the Albanians may have subjugated the Slavic population, which ultimately led to its extermination, migration and assimilation.
How and when this happened? where they went?

Explain this toponyms from middle ages and why did they appear? why in almost entire Albania Slavic toponyms.Who put this names there Albanians?

The discussion in that post was from middle ages to 19th century Albania and it's population generaly,Vlachs,Slavs etc
Before i post more about other population and other parts of Albania start answering.

 

[LABERIA]

This are your words.
All this suggest strong Slavic presence in the area in medieval times,how they become Albanian i don't even want to mention the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians were doing on the Christians or non-Albanians at some period of time,should i mention the atrocities of Ali Pasha on that region destruction of the very prosperous Vlach city of Moskopolje which is remembered to this day,people had no other choice there as they were unarmed against an armed groups.

Before i translate and post much more you read and answer to all this first,only southern albania.
Read this book;
Francois Pouqueville, in his 1820 book Travels in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia, and Thessaly described Bulgarian villages in the Devol region.
What happened to them and where they went?
In the late 14th century, Venetian records note a number of Bulgarians (de genere Bulgarorum) from southern Albania being sold as slaves, suggestiong the Albanians may have subjugated the Slavic population, which ultimately led to its extermination, migration and assimilation.
How and when this happened? where they went?

Explain this toponyms from middle ages and why did they appear? why in almost entire Albania Slavic toponyms.Who put this names there Albanians?

The discussion in that post was from middle ages to 19th century Albania and it's population generaly,Vlachs,Slavs etc
Before i post more about other population and other parts of Albania start answering.

I don`t need to read Francois Pouqueville, read this:
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1515_Musachi/index.html
[h=3]1515
John Musachi:
Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty[/h]I, Lord John (Giovanni) Musachi, Despot of Epirus,....
He also possessed and ruled over the region of Opari (Opar) which is inhabited by Slavs, with the hamlets of Festazzi (Peshtan), Beci, Maserecchi (Mazreka), Lodari (Lavdar), Mariani (Marjan) and Ceriasceli (Çemerica?), all of which are inhabited by Albanians.

Where is this strong Slavic presence in the area in medieval times ?
He describe Epir in XV century. Read the entire article and find me where are the slavs?
Explain us how this strong Slavic presence was assimilated.

 

[Milan]

This are your words.
All this suggest strong Slavic presence in the area in medieval times,how they become Albanian i don't even want to mention the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians were doing on the Christians or non-Albanians at some period of time,should i mention the atrocities of Ali Pasha on that region destruction of the very prosperous Vlach city of Moskopolje which is remembered to this day,people had no other choice there as they were unarmed against an armed groups.




I don`t need to read Francois Pouqueville, read this:
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1515_Musachi/index.html
1515
John Musachi:
Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty

I, Lord John (Giovanni) Musachi, Despot of Epirus,....
He also possessed and ruled over the region of Opari (Opar) which is inhabited by Slavs, with the hamlets of Festazzi (Peshtan), Beci, Maserecchi (Mazreka), Lodari (Lavdar), Mariani (Marjan) and Ceriasceli (Çemerica?), all of which are inhabited by Albanians.

Where is this strong Slavic presence in the area in medieval times ?
He describe Epir in XV century. Read the entire article and find me where are the slavs?
Explain us how this strong Slavic presence was assimilated.

You answer this questions above,i gave you answers.
About other populations and your hero Ali Pasha destruction of Moskopolje is well known,attacks on Greeks,Vlachs are well remembered even today,and i don't know which part you don't understand.
Now you little nationalist coward instead of spining the topic and posting some Albanian pages start answering of what i posted.
You was asking for it.

 

[LABERIA]

You answer this questions above,i gave you answers.
About other population bashibozuk and your hero Ali Pasha destruction of Moskopolje is well known,attacks on Greeks,Vlachs are well remembered even today,and i don't know which part you don't understand.
Now you little nationalist coward instead of spining the topic and posting some Albanian pages start answering of what i posted.

First of all i want to repeat again, don`t use this kind of words with me like the word underlined.
In your post you pretended that in South Albania was a strong Slavic presence. Pouqeviville and the Despot of Epir explain that slavs were only in Opar. Opar is not a large part of South Albania but an small locality.
Where are all this slavs? And how Albanians assimilated this strong slavic presence? It`s you who have to explain this. Do you understand?
And don`t forget that here we are in a serious forum. If you have difficulty to behave like a human, then better leave this forum and find an another suitable for you.

 

[Milan]

First of all i want to repeat again, don`t use this kind of words with me like the word underlined.
In your post you pretended that in South Albania was a strong Slavic presence. Pouqeviville and the Despot of Epir explain that slavs were only in Opar. Opar is not a large part of South Albania but an small locality.
Where are all this slavs? And how Albanians assimilated this strong slavic presence? It`s you who have to explain this. Do you understand?
And don`t forget that here we are in a serious forum. If you have difficulty to behave like a human, then better leave this forum and find an another suitable for you.

Well you might not feel good now but you was looking for it,as you see all of us can use rude words not only you, i was very patient with you but you wasn't changing.
1.Check the toponyms,how they appeared,where this people went or was the Albanians speaking Slavic?
2.Venetians records you can answer them what happened to those people?
3.What happened to those from Devol region too?
Answer that i will bring you more.
If not don't insist on discussion anymore.

 

[LABERIA]

Well you might not feel good now but you was looking for it,as you see all of us can use rude words not only you, i was very patient with you but you wasn't changing.

I have never offended you. Let`s keep a normal discussion.

1.Check the toponyms,how they appeared,where this people went or was the Albanians speaking Slavic?
2.Venetians records you can answer them what happened to those people?
3.What happened to those from Devol region too?
Answer that i will bring you more.
If not don't insist on discussion anymore.

Can you quote this venetian source pls?
This people still live in Opar. But they identify themselves as Albanians.
About the map posted by you, can you tell me the source? Who is the author?
Now, again, where is this strong slavic presence? Do you have an answer for this?

 

[Milan]

Can you quote this venetian source pls?

Archivo di stato di Venetia.
Also the writing of Venetian notarius Manoli Breshiano 1381—1383 from Crete,Candia which i read myself about;slave trade with Ottoman conquest in Balkans,Candia was slave trading center,weird that we find genere Bulgarorum in southern Albania,Devol and Epirus,ethnicity stated by slaves themselves.
Bulgarorum,Greeks and some Serbs from various other places among the slaves taken in raids,couple Tatars and Rus.

This people still live in Opar. But they identify themselves as Albanians.

Do they had right to anything else other than that?

About the map posted by you, can you tell me the source? Who is the author?

A.Selisthev Sofia scientific institut,among them S t. M l a d e n o v, Beberkungen ueber die albaner un d das Albanische in Nordmakedonien und Altserbien. (Balkan-Archiv, I, 1925, стр. 66).

4. F r. S e i n e r, Ergebnisse der Volkszaehlung in Albanien in dem von den oesterr.-ungar. Truppen 1916-1918 besetzen Gebiete. (Schriften der balkankommission. Linguist. Abteilung. XIII. 1922), стр. 50.


5. H a h n, Reise . . . Abteil. II, 37-38


6. S e i n e r. Ergebnisse der Volkszaehlung in Albanien, 54—56.

Now, again, where is this strong slavic presence? Do you have an answer for this?

Answer all this i posted twice above and don't play a blind man,if not you remain a coward who spin discussion and run away which he himself was looking for.

 

[LABERIA]

Archivo di stato di Venetia.
Also the writing of Venetian notarius Manoli Breshiano 1381—1383 from Crete,Candia which i read myself about;slave trade with Ottoman conquest in Balkans,Candia was slave trading center,weird that we find genere Bulgarorum in southern Albania,Devol and Epirus,ethnicity stated by slaves themselves.
Bulgarorum,Greeks and some Serbs from various other places among the slaves taken in raids,couple Tatars and Rus.

Do they had right to anything else other than that?

A.Selisthev Sofia scientific institut,among them S t. M l a d e n o v, Beberkungen ueber die albaner un d das Albanische in Nordmakedonien und Altserbien. (Balkan-Archiv, I, 1925, стр. 66).

4. F r. S e i n e r, Ergebnisse der Volkszaehlung in Albanien in dem von den oesterr.-ungar. Truppen 1916-1918 besetzen Gebiete. (Schriften der balkankommission. Linguist. Abteilung. XIII. 1922), стр. 50.


5. H a h n, Reise . . . Abteil. II, 37-38


6. S e i n e r. Ergebnisse der Volkszaehlung in Albanien, 54—56.

Answer all this i posted twice above and don't play a blind man,if not you remain a coward who spin discussion and run away which he himself was looking for.

1- It's good that you have decided to read, it's the best way to fight the ignorance and stupidity. But in our discussion this is not enough, you have to post here your source in order to give credibility to your words. Now if we take seriously your words, you are talking again about the same region, this group of villages mentioned by John Muzaka and Pouqueville.
2-This people are free today to declare themselves as they want.
3- Before discussing what Selisthev and others says, you have to finish what you started here.
According to your theory, in South Albania during the middle age there was an strong Slavic presence. This slavs are assimilated in Albanian, and here i want to quote your words:
the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians were doing on the Christians or non-Albanians at some period of time.
Can you elaborate this your theory, pls? Because here started our discussion. A couple of villages are just a couple of villages.
Of course i have an opinion about all this, but it's you who have to explain this your theory to us, because you started all this.

 

[Milan]

1- It's good that you have decided to read, it's the best way to fight the ignorance and stupidity. But in our discussion this is not enough, you have to post here your source in order to give credibility to your words. Now if we take seriously your words, you are talking again about the same region, this group of villages mentioned by John Muzaka and Pouqueville.

You pretend to be blind again.
I see hundreds of villages above,also Venetian record are from Epirus.
You can believe they are couple if suit you doesn't matter.

2-This people are free today to declare themselves as they want.

In 2011 Macedonian organizations from Albania asked Macedonians to boycott the census because only in Pustec Municipality were individuals were allowed to declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians.
In 1966, the state abolished religion, and in 1968 the state forced parents to name their children with contemporary and revolutionary (Illyrian) names. The surnames were forcibly changed by the Albanian government, from Slavic into Albanian ones, as part of Albanianization.
Illyrian names )) do you know their meaning?

3- Before discussing what Selisthev and others says, you have to finish what you started here.
According to your theory, in South Albania during the middle age there was an strong Slavic presence. This slavs are assimilated in Albanian, and here i want to quote your words:
the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians were doing on the Christians or non-Albanians at some period of time.
Can you elaborate this your theory, pls? Because here started our discussion. A couple of villages are just a couple of villages.

Yes there was "strong" Slavic presence whether you like it or not is in the chronicle is in the toponyms.The administration was Slavic most of the time or Byzantine middle ages is that not to be expected?
Albanians perhaps were living in highlands at that time.
Let's mention other population there which i had in mind;
About Ali Pasha, Muslim Albanian ruler (1740-1822):
David Binder, Duke University Pres
In the south-central Balkans, Vlachs settled permanently in towns during the late Middle Ages. Their largest city was Moskopol, with a population of over 40,000 by the mid-eighteenth century. Vlach merchants sent agents thence as far away as Venice and Vienna. Then disaster struck. Albanian bands sacked Moskopol in 1769 and returned to loot in 1788. Then, Ali Pasha Tepelena (1740-1822), the powerful Albanian ruler who had started out life as a bandit chieftain, destroyed what was left of Moskopol.

(End of quote)

Unfortunately Aromanians (Vlachs) who once inhabited a large part of todays Albania were victims of Albanian rulers like Ali Pasha and they never recovered.

extermination, migration and assimilation,that's how most of them ended,minorities in other countries were assimilated too,that happened elsewhere trough history,the Balkans was always with mixed population.

You can believe in whatever you like that Albanians are Illyrians,also they were Macedonians,entire Balkans was Albania reality is totaly different even in your own country,whether you like it or not.
Discussion with you is useless like always.When you grow up and be ready to accept reality come back again.

PS
I have nothing against the country Albania or Albanians,the country belong to Albanians.
The conversation with Laberia went this way for another reason,his nationalism and bias toward other countries.