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Thread: Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Albanians acquired their first script in the second half of the XVII century under the name of "The Elbasan script". In 1840, Bjuto Kuke introduced the second script variant, named after him. These two variants of the Albanian script, according to the researches carried out by Johannes Friedrich, consist of Neo-Greek and Serbian letters.No traces of Albanian literacy prior to these dates exist, and in the science, it is widely known that the Illyrians and the Thracians were literate. The script used today by the Albanians is the Latin script introduced in 1908. The same applies to the language. When the science fails to react immediately with right arguments, constructions and confusions come to life causing even greater embarrasment.
    When do babies start talking? Babbling usually starts around 4 month of age, right. When do children start writing? The answer is when they acquire school at first grade. I am terribly sorry to reduce the debate on this cynical level but your rhetorical question was risen on wrong premises. Just because Albanian was relatively lately written (as many other European languages), this does not hinder us from searching its distant origin, be that from paleo-Balkan languages or other languages. The Lithuanians had no written language of their own for a rather long period of time, up to the mid-16th century, yet all linguists trace its pedigree back to proto-Baltic. By the same token, Romanian first appeared in writing during the 16th century mainly in religious texts and other documents, yet nearly all linguists consider Romanian as being comprised of a Latinized native speech and other ingredients. Therefore, Albanian is no different considering that its major source falls within western Balkans, with Illyrian as the likeliest spring. I am pretty well aware that our knowledge on ancient idioms is frustratingly exiguous, yet comparative linguistics is perfectly capable of delineating the territory of proto-Albanian, a vast though scattered area jutting from Dalmatia all the way to Epirus. On the basis of certain idiosyncratic innovations shared by Albanian and Messapic and a couple of striking lexical items attested in territories once known as Illyria, it would not be amiss to suggest that Albanian represent a modern stage of the ancient idioms spoken in these areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    When do babies start talking? Babbling usually starts around 4 month of age, right. When do children start writing? The answer is when they acquire school at first grade. I am terribly sorry to reduce the debate on this cynical level but your rhetorical question was risen on wrong premises. Just because Albanian was relatively lately written (as many other European languages), this does not hinder us from searching its distant origin, be that from paleo-Balkan languages or other languages. The Lithuanians had no written language of their own for a rather long period of time, up to the mid-16th century, yet all linguists trace its pedigree back to proto-Baltic. By the same token, Romanian first appeared in writing during the 16th century mainly in religious texts and other documents, yet nearly all linguists consider Romanian as being comprised of a Latinized native speech and other ingredients. Therefore, Albanian is no different considering that its major source falls within western Balkans, with Illyrian as the likeliest spring. I am pretty well aware that our knowledge on ancient idioms is frustratingly exiguous, yet comparative linguistics is perfectly capable of delineating the territory of proto-Albanian, a vast though scattered area jutting from Dalmatia all the way to Epirus. On the basis of certain idiosyncratic innovations shared by Albanian and Messapic and a couple of striking lexical items attested in territories once known as Illyria, it would not be amiss to suggest that Albanian represent a modern stage of the ancient idioms spoken in these areas.
    They aren't wrong premises stating the known history,Romanians were writing in Cyrillic and Old Church Slavonic they were incorporated very early in the Bulgarian empire,later with collapse of the same policies they started using their language,just like the Thracians,Illyrians used Latin speech and alphabet in the Roman empire,this doesn't mean that peasants and they themselves didn't spoke their native languages in every day use,but that mean that they were writing and using some kind of script and were familiar with writing,the obvious thing Thracian,Illyrian cultures reached "high" level in their history known from archeology they were using alphabet since before Christ,as for the Baltic-Lithuanian i don't disregard that the same language is very archaic in it's nature,but writing in that part of Europe went much later in comparison to the Balkans,ancient toponyms from Balkans are explainable in many other languages including Baltic and Slavic,most archaic of all Lithuanian explain many more toponyms than Albanian,yes in Illyria itself you should take a look,should add that Albanians did not appear in historical sources until 11th century,they were called Arbanasi by the Slavic speakers according to many because of the place Raban they settle,by the Greeks Arvanites while they call themselves Shiptars.Albania is geographic term brought with the Normans in the 11th or 12th century,we should as well have in mind this things prior discusing any language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    They aren't wrong premises stating the known history,Romanians were writing in Cyrillic and Old Church Slavonic they were incorporated very early in the Bulgarian empire,later with collapse of the same policies they started using their language,just like the Thracians,Illyrians used Latin speech and alphabet in the Roman empire,this doesn't mean that peasants and they themselves didn't spoke their native languages in every day use,but that mean that they were writing and using some kind of script and were familiar with writing,the obvious thing Thracian,Illyrian cultures reached "high" level in their history known from archeology they were using alphabet since before Christ,as for the Baltic-Lithuanian i don't disregard that the same language is very archaic in it's nature,but writing in that part of Europe went much later in comparison to the Balkans,ancient toponyms from Balkans are explainable in many other languages including Baltic and Slavic,most archaic of all Lithuanian explain many more toponyms than Albanian,yes in Illyria itself you should take a look,should add that Albanians did not appear in historical sources until 11th century,they were called Arbanasi by the Slavic speakers according to many because of the place Raban they settle,by the Greeks Arvanites while they call themselves Shiptars.Albania is geographic term brought with the Normans in the 11th or 12th century,we should as well have in mind this things prior discusing any language.
    Its a skewed logic to deem Albania as merely geographical term without any ethnic content. The fact that Albanians as a distinct ethne were mentioned in 11th century is rather irrelevant. Byzantine Empire considered all its subjects as being Romei as long as they recognized the ascendancy of Constantinople. The period spanning from 7th century down to 11th century contains virtually no sources. The imperial attention was shifted to the marauding onslaughts of either Bulgarians or Serbs into Byzantine territories, so there was no apparent reason to conduct any insightful research over its loyal subjects. With the collapse of the Roman empire and the Slav invasions both Latin and Illyrian speakers would have retreated to the hills and obscurity, so this is the main reason why explicit mention of Albanians are wanting. But it is very telling the fact that Albanians and Vlachs got mention when the Bulgarian threat has gone and some tranquility took place. How come that Albanians became so abruptly distinguishable? Its because Albanians received a kind of political autonomy by wielding additional powers, Byzantine chroniclers felt a need to describe them distinctly from the rest of their subjects.

    I do believe that comparative linguistics offers ample evidences to pinpoint the earlier presence of proto-Albanian into present-day territories. A tremendous work achieved by diligent research conducted by Petar Skok, H. Baric, M. Budimir settles down this question once for all. :

    § The name of Illyrian tribe Dindarii (Δινδάριοι) is preserved on modern Dinara evincing nd > n assimilation which in turn matches with Albanian cf. Alb anë 'end, side' < *H2ent-eH2. The same is further bolstered by certain place names like: Blanona : Blandona where the cluster -nd is assimilated in -n.

    § Milan Budimir's argument is revolved around the very fact that the oronym Scardus has gotten the current form only through Albanian. He precludes with one go the possibility that Slavs were present out there because the current form does not feature the so-called liquid metathesis. If Slavs preceded Albanians in southern Balkans then the expected form of Scardus would have been Skrad (cf. Scardona > Skradin). This toponym is harked back to PIE <*skordo- which clearly provide that IE short /o/ yields as /a/ into both Illyrian and Albanian.

    § An Illyrian place-name like Siscia provides a watertight evidence. It can be safely etymologized as related with IE word for ,dry' <*si-sk-us-. Its beyond any cavil that this name contains the Albanian word thaj 'dry' (<*saus-ni̯o-). Vladimir Orel holds that Proto-Albanian retained the initial *s because its presence account for the current forms of certain words (cf. *sū > shi, *sūs > thi etc). The Illyrian place-name Siscia might be harked back to *si-sk-iya, so we are justified to envisage an Illyrian word for ,dry' which most likely was *sek-. This urges us to compare if PAlb. *saus with some Illyrian toponymes which contain the very same root. The more we delve upon it, the more feasible the link with Illyrian get. Its tempting to analyze the name of island Sazan whose earlier form was Sasan. The Illyrian form exhibits the same phonetic rules agreeing with Albanian saus-ni̯o where the diphtong /au/ gets simplified in /a/ while the following sibilant in Late Albanian /s/ yields in /j/.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    Its a skewed logic to deem Albania as merely geographical term without any ethnic content. The fact that Albanians as a distinct ethne were mentioned in 11th century is rather irrelevant. Byzantine Empire considered all its subjects as being Romei as long as they recognized the ascendancy of Constantinople. The period spanning from 7th century down to 11th century contains virtually no sources. The imperial attention was shifted to the marauding onslaughts of either Bulgarians or Serbs into Byzantine territories, so there was no apparent reason to conduct any insightful research over its loyal subjects. With the collapse of the Roman empire and the Slav invasions both Latin and Illyrian speakers would have retreated to the hills and obscurity, so this is the main reason why explicit mention of Albanians are wanting. But it is very telling the fact that Albanians and Vlachs got mention when the Bulgarian threat has gone and some tranquility took place. How come that Albanians became so abruptly distinguishable? Its because Albanians received a kind of political autonomy by wielding additional powers, Byzantine chroniclers felt a need to describe them distinctly from the rest of their subjects.

    I do believe that comparative linguistics offers ample evidences to pinpoint the earlier presence of proto-Albanian into present-day territories. A tremendous work achieved by diligent research conducted by Petar Skok, H. Baric, M. Budimir settles down this question once for all. :

    § The name of Illyrian tribe Dindarii (Δινδάριοι) is preserved on modern Dinara evincing nd > n assimilation which in turn matches with Albanian cf. Alb anë 'end, side' < *H2ent-eH2. The same is further bolstered by certain place names like: Blanona : Blandona where the cluster -nd is assimilated in -n.

    § Milan Budimir's argument is revolved around the very fact that the oronym Scardus has gotten the current form only through Albanian. He precludes with one go the possibility that Slavs were present out there because the current form does not feature the so-called liquid metathesis. If Slavs preceded Albanians in southern Balkans then the expected form of Scardus would have been Skrad (cf. Scardona > Skradin). This toponym is harked back to PIE <*skordo- which clearly provide that IE short /o/ yields as /a/ into both Illyrian and Albanian.

    § An Illyrian place-name like Siscia provides a watertight evidence. It can be safely etymologized as related with IE word for ,dry' <*si-sk-us-. Its beyond any cavil that this name contains the Albanian word thaj 'dry' (<*saus-ni̯o-). Vladimir Orel holds that Proto-Albanian retained the initial *s because its presence account for the current forms of certain words (cf. *sū > shi, *sūs > thi etc). The Illyrian place-name Siscia might be harked back to *si-sk-iya, so we are justified to envisage an Illyrian word for ,dry' which most likely was *sek-. This urges us to compare if PAlb. *saus with some Illyrian toponymes which contain the very same root. The more we delve upon it, the more feasible the link with Illyrian get. Its tempting to analyze the name of island Sazan whose earlier form was Sasan. The Illyrian form exhibits the same phonetic rules agreeing with Albanian saus-ni̯o where the diphtong /au/ gets simplified in /a/ while the following sibilant in Late Albanian /s/ yields in /j/.
    Who really connected Albanian and Illyrian, Cabej who was professor of history of Albanian language in the time of Enver Hoxha, who else from modern linguists.

    There are some examples connected Albanian with another language: Pedersen: Albanian and Armenian, Weigand: Albanian and Thracian, Georgiev: Albanian and Dacian;Mayer: Albanian and Slavic etc.

    Linguists didn't see relationships with Illyrian, unlike, using power of arguments ties Albanians with Illyrian are rejected.

    Fortson 2004 highlights that has no evidence that someone can connect Albanian with Illyrian and Thracian.

    Today linguists place precursor of modern Albanian in comparasion with today's Albanian settlement (in south western Balkan) much more northern from southern Poland to Romania.

    According to Curtis who wrote several years ago linguistic evidence is solid that pre-Albanian was spoken further to the north and east.

    And of course, Fine wrote that today's Albanians have no one ancestor, they are ethnic mixture.

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    My opinion is that proto Albanian originated somewhere in Caucasus or somewhere around Caspian Sea and after that speakers of proto Albanian migrated to Ukraine/Moldavia/Romania where language is further developed, when speakers of this language came to the todays Albanian settlement in southwestern Balkans (probably 5-10 century), modern Albanian is completed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Who really connected Albanian and Illyrian, Cabej who was professor of history of Albanian language in the time of Enver Hoxha, who else from modern linguists.
    Garrick,

    You never fail to crack me up. You know deep down that to deny the Illyrian origin of Albanians is like pissing against the wind, yet you try by any means to obfuscate the obvious by combing some selected quotes to cater your inferiority complex. That Albanian evolved chiefly from Illyrian, consisting a modern stage of Illyrian, as Mayer coined the expression, is not stated solely by Albanians. It's a largely-held view, in short the most widespread conclusion among scholars. Arguing with you is like talking to a brick wall; you just get tired pointlessly. I deliberately brought up some Serbian scholars who dwellt upon this question; both of them alike were mildly supportive to the view which sees Albanians as being natives to their present-day areas.








    It was Milan Budimir, one of the most renowned authorities at his time, which made the following observation:

    Stoga lingvistički preci arbanaskog jezika spadaju u onu grupu koju čine indoevropski Pelasti na antičkom Balkanu i koja se mora smatrati izuzetno arhaičnom i konzervativnom. Starija naselja arbanaskih predaka ne mogu biti daleko od planine Scardus /Skrad, p.a./...
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    And of course, Fine wrote that today's Albanians have no one ancestor, they are ethnic mixture
    I'm not sure whether Fine had this in mind when he stated quite the contrary:





    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    My opinion is that proto Albanian originated somewhere in Caucasus or somewhere around Caspian Sea and after that speakers of proto Albanian migrated to Ukraine/Moldavia/Romania where language is further developed, when speakers of this language came to the todays Albanian settlement in southwestern Balkans (probably 5-10 century), modern Albanian is completed.
    Ah, another nerve-wrecking ordeal!
    One is tempted to ask how could shift a whole populace thoroughly unnoticed through the watchful eyes of Byzantines who could discern even the most insignificant intrusions of tiny marauding tribes from north of Danube? Thus the idea that Albanians came from some central Balkans regions loosely called as Daco-Mysian area is riddled with major inconsistencies. The Daco-Mysian half-baked hypothesis hinges purely on linguistic data, namely on some alleged similarities between Dacian and modern Albanian. This would require a whole inquisitive investigation because many of linguistic material is rather disputable and based on some flimsy etymologies. Suffice is to say that Dacian and Illyrian appear to have been closer that one is inclined to believe. Beside some lexical items, they share some common pertinent phonetic peculiarities. This rule out once for all the patently wrong idea according to which a Dacian intrusion towards Western Balkans is single-handedly responsible for the creation of proto-Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    Garrick,

    You never fail to crack me up. You know deep down that to deny the Illyrian origin of Albanians is like pissing against the wind, yet you try by any means to obfuscate the obvious by combing some selected quotes to cater your inferiority complex. That Albanian evolved chiefly from Illyrian, consisting a modern stage of Illyrian, as Mayer coined the expression, is not stated solely by Albanians. It's a largely-held view, in short the most widespread conclusion among scholars. Arguing with you is like talking to a brick wall; you just get tired pointlessly. I deliberately brought up some Serbian scholars who dwellt upon this question; both of them alike were mildly supportive to the view which sees Albanians as being natives to their present-day areas.








    It was Milan Budimir, one of the most renowned authorities at his time, which made the following observation:





    I'm not sure whether Fine had this in mind when he stated quite the contrary:






    Ah, another nerve-wrecking ordeal!
    One is tempted to ask how could shift a whole populace thoroughly unnoticed through the watchful eyes of Byzantines who could discern even the most insignificant intrusions of tiny marauding tribes from north of Danube? Thus the idea that Albanians came from some central Balkans regions loosely called as Daco-Mysian area is riddled with major inconsistencies. The Daco-Mysian half-baked hypothesis hinges purely on linguistic data, namely on some alleged similarities between Dacian and modern Albanian. This would require a whole inquisitive investigation because many of linguistic material is rather disputable and based on some flimsy etymologies. Suffice is to say that Dacian and Illyrian appear to have been closer that one is inclined to believe. Beside some lexical items, they share some common pertinent phonetic peculiarities. This rule out once for all the patently wrong idea according to which a Dacian intrusion towards Western Balkans is single-handedly responsible for the creation of proto-Albanians.


    so are you saying that illyrians who originated between modern bosnia,
    eastern slovenia and hungaria who according to all genetics belong to vudecol culture ....and.....
    who only entered modern albania and ancient northern epirote circa 300BC .........are also Albanians?????

    what did the illyrians do then from the late bronze-age to 300BC ??


    All I see is that Albanians are FISHING for a history ................the only modern people who can claim Illyrian in their genes are the BOSNIANS
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Albanians acquired their first script in the second half of the XVII century under the name of "The Elbasan script". In 1840, Bjuto Kuke introduced the second script variant, named after him. These two variants of the Albanian script, according to the researches carried out by Johannes Friedrich, consist of Neo-Greek and Serbian letters.No traces of Albanian literacy prior to these dates exist, and in the science, it is widely known that the Illyrians and the Thracians were literate. The script used today by the Albanians is the Latin script introduced in 1908. The same applies to the language. When the science fails to react immediately with right arguments, constructions and confusions come to life causing even greater embarrasment.





    Excuse me for my ignorance, can you tell me please who is Bjuto Kuke? First time i heard this name.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Don't want to discuss history with you will let you lead your thread as you wish,but there is recored history for the Albanians,it happened while the Norman-Byzantine wars and the first mentioning of the Albanians in Southern Italy i guess so,whenever their origin is not written,By Attaliates (11th century) For when subsequent commanders made base and shameful plans and decisions, not only was the island lost to Byzantium, but also the greater part of the army. Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokianos insanely directed his command against their leaders,Laonikos Chalkokondyles (c. 1423–1490), the Byzantine historian, thought that the Albanians hailed from Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Don't want to discuss history with you will let you lead your thread as you wish,but there is recored history for the Albanians,it happened while the Norman-Byzantine wars and the first mentioning of the Albanians, they deflected from the Normans to Byzantines in Southern Italy i guess so,whenever their origin is not written,By Attaliates (11th century) For when subsequent commanders made base and shameful plans and decisions, not only was the island lost to Byzantium, but also the greater part of the army. Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokianos insanely directed his command against their leaders,Laonikos Chalkokondyles (c. 1423–1490), the Byzantine historian, thought that the Albanians hailed from Italy.
    Are you talking about the norman-byzantine wars, where the Normans where exchanging troops between italy and albania, trying to actually get a foothold in Albania.

    IIRC, byazantine asked its ally , Venice to supply the navy to combat the normans as the byzantine navy was useless.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Norman_wars

    then came

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdo...%28medieval%29


    and

    the first recorded term albania came from
    The term "Ducagini d'Arbania" is first mentioned in a document from Ragusa (Dubrovnik).[1]
    The name Ducagini is thought to derive from the Latin dux (alb. Duka) and the common Albanian name Ghin (Gjin). In fact, in a document dated to 1281, an Albanian chieftain referred as dux Ginius Tanuschus Albanensis[1] is mentioned as an enemy of Angevin rule in Albania and that he was later captured and imprisoned for his actions.[2]
    The origins of the family's branches are not clear. According to Gibb, family history dates back to the Crusades: Dukagjini name came from Duka-Gjini, Duke Gjini (Jean),[6] and Dukagjini tribe's name comes from its founder, a Norman noble left behind during the Crusades who settled with his people in Dukagjini geographical space mingling with Albanians.[7][8]

    Last sentence is also mentioned in Ottoman chronicles

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Excuse me for my ignorance, can you tell me please who is Bjuto Kuke? First time i heard this name.
    Vithkuqi script, also called Büthakukye or Beitha Kukju after the appellation applied to it by German Albanologist Johann Georg von Hahn, was an alphabet invented for writing the Albanian language between 1825 and 1845 by Albanian scholar Naum Veqilharxhi.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Initially i did not intend to intervene in this thread. But after reading this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    My opinion is that proto Albanian originated somewhere in Caucasus or somewhere around Caspian Sea and after that speakers of proto Albanian migrated to Ukraine/Moldavia/Romania where language is further developed, when speakers of this language came to the todays Albanian settlement in southwestern Balkans (probably 5-10 century), modern Albanian is completed.
    i decided to say few words.
    So we have here two serb members with their strange and alternative theories, and Sille which as usually expresses his sympathy to the Albanians.





    This forums are a possibility for people to discuss. There is nothing wrong If be discussed, various alternative theories. The problem with Serbs is that all of their discussions about Albanians, in all forums, are ridiculous and alternative discussions.
    These people, the Serbs, in their school books teach that Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians. Once they join a forum, they forget what they have learned in school and change suddenly in trollls.

    Why this?


    The problem with the Serbs is that they suffer from an inferiority complex. Their situation can be explain with this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
    It is a universally known fact that in the Balkans, Serbs had come from Asia. There are different theories for the origin of the Serbs, ranging from distant Siberia and Afghanistan and to the theory until now acceptable, according to which the Serbs originated somewhere in Caucasus or somewhere around Caspian Sea


    All this is ridiculous. Go ahead guys.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Laberia I am not Serb myself and if there is something you don't like no need to insult cause i guess you find yourself in that complex,but i happen to live in that land once called Illyria,if i don't represent theory of Albanian supreme leader Enver Hoxha doesn't mean i have no right to comment and have opinion,history is not always interpreted as you wish to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Are you talking about the norman-byzantine wars, where the Normans where exchanging troops between italy and albania, trying to actually get a foothold in Albania.

    IIRC, byazantine asked its ally , Venice to supply the navy to combat the normans as the byzantine navy was useless.

    Last sentence is also mentioned in Ottoman chronicles
    Yes it is that period.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Here this article/research is couple years ago i might post it,it is not by that Serbian propaganda but by Austrian scholars,revial the myths.

    Austrian Scholars Leave Albania Lost for Words

    Viennese researchers upset traditionally minded Albanians by pouring cold water on the theory that the Albanian language has its roots in Ancient Illyria.

    Deep in the bowels of Vienna University, two Austrian academics are poring over the ancient texts of a far-away people in the Balkans.

    Like a couple of detectives searching for clues, Stefan Schumacher and Joachim Matzinger are out to reconstruct the origins of Albanian - a language whose history and development has received remarkably little attention outside the world of Albanian scholars.


    “The way that languages change can be traced,” Schumacher declares, with certainty.


    Although the two men are simply studying 17th and 18th-century Albanian texts in order to compile a lexicon of verbs, their innocent-sounding work has stirred hot debate among Albanian linguists.


    The root of the controversy is their hypothesis that Albanian does not originate from the language of the Ancient Illyrians, the people or peoples who inhabited the Balkans in the Greek and Roman era.


    According to Classical writers, the Illyrians were a collection of tribes who lived in much of today’s Western Balkans, roughly corresponding to part of former Yugoslavia and modern Albania.


    Although Albanian and Illyrian have little or nothing in common, judging from the handful of Illyrian words that archeologists have retrieved, the Albanian link has long been cherished by Albanian nationalists.


    The theory is still taught to all Albanians, from primary school through to university.


    It is popular because it suggests that Albanians descend from an ancient people who populated the Balkans long before the Slavs and whose territory was unfairly stolen by these later incomers.


    “You’ll find the doctrine about the Illyrian origin of Albanians everywhere,” Matzinger muses, “from popular to scientific literature and schoolbooks. “There is no discussion about this, it’s a fact. They say, ‘We are Illyrians’ and that’s that,” he adds.


    What’s in a name?


    The names of many Albanians bear witness to the historic drive to prove the Illyrian link.



    Pandeli Pani | Photo by : Idem Institute
    Not Pandeli Pani. When he was born in Tirana in 1966, midway through the long dictatorship of Enver Hoxha, his father told the local registry office that he wished to name him after his grandfather.


    Pani recalls his father’s hard-fought battle not to have to give his son an Illyrian name.


    Staff at the civil registry office apparently said that naming the future linguistics professor after his grandfather was not a good idea, as he was dead. They suggested an approved Illyrian name instead.


    “But the Illyrians aren’t alive either,” Pani recalls his father as quipping.


    Many members of Pani’s generation born in the Sixties did not have such stubborn fathers. Their parents subscribed to the government policy of naming children after names drawn from ancient tombs.


    In the eyes of the world, they aimed to cement the linkage between modern Albania and its supposedly ancient past.


    “While I was named after my grandfather, keeping up a family tradition, other parents gave their children Illyrian names that I doubt they knew the meaning of,” says Pani, who today teaches at Jena university in Germany.


    “But I doubt many parents today would want to name their children ‘Bledar’ or ‘Agron,’ when the first means ‘dead’ and the second ‘arcadian,” he adds.


    Pani says that despite the Hoxha regime’s efforts to burn the doctrine of the Albanians’ Illyrian origins into the nation’s consciousness, the theory has become increasingly anachronistic.


    “The political pressure in which Albania’s scientific community worked after the communist took over, made it difficult to deal with flaws with the doctrine of the Illyrian origin,” he said.


    But while the Illyrian theory no longer commands universal support, it hasn’t lost all its supporters in Albanian academia.


    Take Mimoza Kore, linguistics professor at the University of Tirana.



    Mimoza Kore-Albanian
    Speaking during a conference in November organised by the Hanns Seidel Foundation, where Pani presented Schumacher’s and Matzinger’s findings, she defended the linkage of Albanian and Illyrian, saying it was not based only on linguistic theory.


    “Scholars base this hypothesis also on archeology,” Kore said. Renowned scholars who did not “subscribe blindly to the ideology of the [Hoxha] regime” still supported the idea, she insisted.


    One of the key problems in working out the linguistic descendants of the Illyrians is a chronic shortage of sources.


    The Illyrians appears to have been unlettered, so information on their language and culture is highly fragmentary and mostly derived from external sources, Greek or Roman.


    Matzinger points put that when the few surviving fragments of Illyrian and Albanian are compared, they have almost nothing in common.


    “The two are opposites and cannot fit together,” he says. “Albanian is not as the same as Illyrian from a linguistic point of view.”


    Schumacher and Matzinger believe Albanian came into existence separately from Illyrian, orginating from the Indo-European family tree during the second millennium BC, somewhere in the northern Balkans.


    The language’s broad shape resembles Greek. It appears to have developed lineally until the 15th century, when the first extant text comes to light.


    “One thing we know for sure is that a language which, with some justification, we can call Albanian has been around for at least 3,000 years,” Schumacher says. “Even though it was not written down for millennia, Albanian existed as a separate entity,” he added.


    Bastard tongues:


    Linguists say different languages spoken in the same geographical area often reveal similarities, despite a lack of evidence of a common origin.


    This phenomenon of linguistic “areas” is also evident in the Balkans, where such different languages as Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian and Romanian all share words and structures.


    First written words in Albanian
    The first written record of Albanian is a baptismal formula written in 1462 by the Archbishop of Durres, Pal Engjelli. The first book in Albanian, a missal, was written in 1554 by Gjon Buzuku, a Catholic priest from the Shkodra region.


    Pjeter Budi, Archbishop of Sape, also translated and adapted several Italian texts to Albanian in the same period.


    Schumacher and Matzinger are concentrating their scholarship mostly on the work of Pjeter Bogdani, Archbishop of Prizren, who wrote half-a-century later. He is considered the most interesting Albanian early writer and the “father” of Albanian prose.


    Bogdani’s most famous work, The Story of Adam and Eve, his account of the first part of the Bible, is written in both Albanian and Italian. Matzinger says that when Bogdani published the book he was under some pressure from the Inquisition. As the Inquisition did not know Albanian, and were not sure what he wrote, they forced him to make an Italian translation, which is published in the left column of the book.


    “That is most useful because it means that no sentence in the book [in Albanian] is incomprehensible,” Matzinger says.


    Although numerous texts by Bogdani, Budi and some others survive, the variety of authors, mainly Catholic clerics, is small. “It would be interesting if we had a bigger variety of authors, though we’re grateful enough for what we do have,” Schumacher says.


    According to Schumacher, from the Middle Ages onwards, languages throughout the Balkans tended to become more similar to one another, suggesting a high level of linguistic “exchange” between populations in the region.


    “A lot of people used a number of languages every day, and this is one way in which languages influence each other,” Schumacher says. “The difficult thing is that this runs counter to nationalist theories,” he adds.


    Drawing on genetic terminology, linguists term this process of language exchange language “bastardization”.


    Following the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, the phenomenon of language bastardization has taken a new twist, moving in the opposite direction, as each newly formed state acts to shore up its own unique linguistic identity.


    Before the common state collapsed, four of the six constituent republics, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro, shared a common language known as Serbo-Croat.


    But since declaring independence in 1991, Croatia has consciously highlighted the distinct character of its language, now called “Croatian”.


    Bosnian Muslims have made similar efforts in Bosnia and Herzegovina, promoting official use of a codified “Bosniak” language.


    Montenegro, which remained in a loose state union with Serbia until 2006, then appeared content not to have its own separate language. But after independence, a new constitution adopted on October 2007 named the official language as Montenegrin.


    Similar calls to foster a separate national language have been heard in Kosovo, drawing on the northern Albanian “Gegh” dialect, though none of these initiatives has received official encouragement.


    Out of language, an identity:


    The study of Balkan languages came of age in the later 19th century as the Ottoman Empire began disintegrating and as intellectuals tasked with creating new nations out of its rubble turned to language to help forge national identities.




    Cover of Adam and Eve, from Pjeter Bogdani | Photo by : Stefan Schumacher
    According Schumacher, each country in the Balkans forged its own national myth, just as Germany or the US had done earlier, with a view to creating foundations for a shared identity.


    “In the late 19th century, language was the only element that everyone could identify with,” says Schumacher.


    He described the use of linguistics in national mythology as understandable, considering the context and the time when these countries gained independence.


    “It’s not easy to create an identity for Albanians if you just say that they descend from mountains tribes about whom the historians of antiquity wrote nothing,” he notes.


    The friction between ideological myth and reality, when it comes to forging national identity, and laying claim to territory, is not unique to Albania.


    Schumacher points out that Romanian history books teach that Romanians descend from the Roman legionnaires who guarded the Roman province of Dacia – a questionable theory to which few non-Romanians lend much credence, but which shores up Romania’s claim to Transylvania, a land to which Hungarians historically also lay claim.


    “The Romanian language developed somewhere south of the Danube, but Romanians don’t want to admit that because the Hungarians can claim that they have been there before,” notes Schumacher.


    “None of them is older or younger,” says Schumacher. “Languages are like a bacterium that splits up in two and than splits up in two again and when you have 32 bacteria in the end, they are all the same,” he added.


    The two Austrian linguists say that within European academia, Albanian is one of the most neglected languages, which provides an opportunity to conduct pioneering work.


    Although the extant texts have been known for a long time, “they hardly ever been looked at properly”, Schumacher says. “They were mostly read by scholars of Albanian in order to find, whatever they wanted to find,” he adds.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Oh my God. After the two fake "albanians".i.e serbs, now we have here another serb who deny that he is a serb. I agree, you have all the right to deny your nationality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Initially i did not intend to intervene in this thread. But after reading this post:

    i decided to say few words.
    So we have here two serb members with their strange and alternative theories, and Sille which as usually expresses his sympathy to the Albanians.





    This forums are a possibility for people to discuss. There is nothing wrong If be discussed, various alternative theories. The problem with Serbs is that all of their discussions about Albanians, in all forums, are ridiculous and alternative discussions.
    These people, the Serbs, in their school books teach that Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians. Once they join a forum, they forget what they have learned in school and change suddenly in trollls.

    Why this?


    The problem with the Serbs is that they suffer from an inferiority complex. Their situation can be explain with this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
    It is a universally known fact that in the Balkans, Serbs had come from Asia. There are different theories for the origin of the Serbs, ranging from distant Siberia and Afghanistan and to the theory until now acceptable, according to which the Serbs originated somewhere in Caucasus or somewhere around Caspian Sea


    All this is ridiculous. Go ahead guys.
    What I will say it is not offend, probably you are very young.

    Your text is childish that any discussion with you is redundant, it is not worth the effort.

    A priori I do not refuse to discuss, I suppose in next years when you have more years we will be able to discuss.
    Last edited by Garrick; 12-12-15 at 01:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Laberia I am not Serb myself and if there is something you don't like no need to insult cause i guess you find yourself in that complex,but i happen to live in that land once called Illyria,if i don't represent theory of Albanian supreme leader Enver Hoxha doesn't mean i have no right to comment and have opinion,history is not always interpreted as you wish to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    The theory is still taught to all Albanians, from primary school through to university.
    You need to understand that you are become ridiculous.
    You remember me this Serb, who is concerned about the history textbooks in Serbia.
    http://www.naslovi.net/2013-11-30/pr...balkan/7980500
    Gg Translator:
    SKANDALOZNO: Serbian history textbook: Albanians are autochthonous and Serbs are newcomers to the Balkans!

    Albanians - natives and Serbs newcomers recent days in Balkan, I freely and carefully recorded the interesting history textbook for the sixth grade of primary school, published by the Institute for textbooks Belgrade. The author of the textbook Rade Mihaljčić is some shocking allegations. The author of the textbook Rade Mihaljčić is some shocking allegations.
    After describing the arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans and the conflict with the natives author says "... however, the natives who lived together and whose settlements were grouped into larger groups were not slavonized. Customs, language, and other features preserved National Albanians. Part immigrated Slavs received the language and customs of Albanians and merged with them. "[3] Impressed with this statement, by accident I found the explanation in the first extended version of the same textbook, in a sentence that does not have at present:" Albanians are descended from indigenous people in the Balkan Peninsula, probably Illyrians, romanized to a lesser extent. With them they mix the ancient Greeks, Slavs and other peoples ... ". [4]
    In this kind of serb articles we can find the origin of this alternative point of view of history, by serb members
    All this is obviously not enough individual Serbian academics as is the case with Rade Mihaljčić. Who cares about the map of Europe in 814 years, where it is clear the Serbian state in the Balkans and Albania, which borders with Armenia and Azerbaijan.
    The author is angry about the truth about Kosova.
    Then I expanded my knowledge learning that "Stefan Nemanja conquered Kosovo and parts of northern Albania"
    But the author is not contained in his unbridled fantasy:
    After all this, I was convinced that I read the work of the Albanian historiography. Unfortunately I was wrong. Above that will be corrected in the author section of the Ottoman conquests, however: "After Marick and the Battle of Kosovo, Turks are increasingly threatening the Albanian authorities" [6]. After that talk about heroism George Kastriot Skanderbeg and not a single word notes that Skanderbeg was a Serb origin, or the arrival of Albanians in the Balkans after the collapse of the Arab Sicily.
    SOURCE: Milan Damjanac / SRBIN.INFO

    Do you read this?
    Hence i tell you that you are becoming ridiculous in the eyes of the world.
    Now can you tell me pls? What have to do Enver Hoxha in all this history?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    You need to understand that you are become ridiculous.
    You remember me this Serb, who is concerned about the history textbooks in Serbia.
    http://www.naslovi.net/2013-11-30/pr...balkan/7980500
    Gg Translator:
    SKANDALOZNO: Serbian history textbook: Albanians are autochthonous and Serbs are newcomers to the Balkans!



    In this kind of serb articles we can find the origin of this alternative point of view of history, by serb members


    The author is angry about the truth about Kosova.


    But the author is not contained in his unbridled fantasy:



    Do you read this?
    Hence i tell you that you are becoming ridiculous in the eyes of the world.
    Now can you tell me pls? What have to do Enver Hoxha in all this history?

    P.S.
    Can you provide an correct translation of the article in english pls? Thank you in advance.

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    And this are the books of sixth grade of primary school in Serbia:



    I understand that you want to discuss about history, but first you have to read this books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Here this article/research is couple years ago i might post it,it is not by that Serbian propaganda but by Austrian scholars,revial the myths.

    Austrian Scholars Leave Albania Lost for Words

    Viennese researchers upset traditionally minded Albanians by pouring cold water on the theory that the Albanian language has its roots in Ancient Illyria.

    Deep in the bowels of Vienna University, two Austrian academics are poring over the ancient texts of a far-away people in the Balkans.

    Like a couple of detectives searching for clues, Stefan Schumacher and Joachim Matzinger are out to reconstruct the origins of Albanian - a language whose history and development has received remarkably little attention outside the world of Albanian scholars.


    “The way that languages change can be traced,” Schumacher declares, with certainty.


    Although the two men are simply studying 17th and 18th-century Albanian texts in order to compile a lexicon of verbs, their innocent-sounding work has stirred hot debate among Albanian linguists.


    The root of the controversy is their hypothesis that Albanian does not originate from the language of the Ancient Illyrians, the people or peoples who inhabited the Balkans in the Greek and Roman era.


    According to Classical writers, the Illyrians were a collection of tribes who lived in much of today’s Western Balkans, roughly corresponding to part of former Yugoslavia and modern Albania.


    Although Albanian and Illyrian have little or nothing in common, judging from the handful of Illyrian words that archeologists have retrieved, the Albanian link has long been cherished by Albanian nationalists.


    The theory is still taught to all Albanians, from primary school through to university.


    It is popular because it suggests that Albanians descend from an ancient people who populated the Balkans long before the Slavs and whose territory was unfairly stolen by these later incomers.


    “You’ll find the doctrine about the Illyrian origin of Albanians everywhere,” Matzinger muses, “from popular to scientific literature and schoolbooks. “There is no discussion about this, it’s a fact. They say, ‘We are Illyrians’ and that’s that,” he adds.


    What’s in a name?


    The names of many Albanians bear witness to the historic drive to prove the Illyrian link.



    Pandeli Pani | Photo by : Idem Institute
    Not Pandeli Pani. When he was born in Tirana in 1966, midway through the long dictatorship of Enver Hoxha, his father told the local registry office that he wished to name him after his grandfather.


    Pani recalls his father’s hard-fought battle not to have to give his son an Illyrian name.


    Staff at the civil registry office apparently said that naming the future linguistics professor after his grandfather was not a good idea, as he was dead. They suggested an approved Illyrian name instead.


    “But the Illyrians aren’t alive either,” Pani recalls his father as quipping.


    Many members of Pani’s generation born in the Sixties did not have such stubborn fathers. Their parents subscribed to the government policy of naming children after names drawn from ancient tombs.


    In the eyes of the world, they aimed to cement the linkage between modern Albania and its supposedly ancient past.


    “While I was named after my grandfather, keeping up a family tradition, other parents gave their children Illyrian names that I doubt they knew the meaning of,” says Pani, who today teaches at Jena university in Germany.


    “But I doubt many parents today would want to name their children ‘Bledar’ or ‘Agron,’ when the first means ‘dead’ and the second ‘arcadian,” he adds.


    Pani says that despite the Hoxha regime’s efforts to burn the doctrine of the Albanians’ Illyrian origins into the nation’s consciousness, the theory has become increasingly anachronistic.


    “The political pressure in which Albania’s scientific community worked after the communist took over, made it difficult to deal with flaws with the doctrine of the Illyrian origin,” he said.


    But while the Illyrian theory no longer commands universal support, it hasn’t lost all its supporters in Albanian academia.


    Take Mimoza Kore, linguistics professor at the University of Tirana.



    Mimoza Kore-Albanian
    Speaking during a conference in November organised by the Hanns Seidel Foundation, where Pani presented Schumacher’s and Matzinger’s findings, she defended the linkage of Albanian and Illyrian, saying it was not based only on linguistic theory.


    “Scholars base this hypothesis also on archeology,” Kore said. Renowned scholars who did not “subscribe blindly to the ideology of the [Hoxha] regime” still supported the idea, she insisted.


    One of the key problems in working out the linguistic descendants of the Illyrians is a chronic shortage of sources.


    The Illyrians appears to have been unlettered, so information on their language and culture is highly fragmentary and mostly derived from external sources, Greek or Roman.


    Matzinger points put that when the few surviving fragments of Illyrian and Albanian are compared, they have almost nothing in common.


    “The two are opposites and cannot fit together,” he says. “Albanian is not as the same as Illyrian from a linguistic point of view.”


    Schumacher and Matzinger believe Albanian came into existence separately from Illyrian, orginating from the Indo-European family tree during the second millennium BC, somewhere in the northern Balkans.


    The language’s broad shape resembles Greek. It appears to have developed lineally until the 15th century, when the first extant text comes to light.


    “One thing we know for sure is that a language which, with some justification, we can call Albanian has been around for at least 3,000 years,” Schumacher says. “Even though it was not written down for millennia, Albanian existed as a separate entity,” he added.


    Bastard tongues:


    Linguists say different languages spoken in the same geographical area often reveal similarities, despite a lack of evidence of a common origin.


    This phenomenon of linguistic “areas” is also evident in the Balkans, where such different languages as Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian and Romanian all share words and structures.


    First written words in Albanian
    The first written record of Albanian is a baptismal formula written in 1462 by the Archbishop of Durres, Pal Engjelli. The first book in Albanian, a missal, was written in 1554 by Gjon Buzuku, a Catholic priest from the Shkodra region.


    Pjeter Budi, Archbishop of Sape, also translated and adapted several Italian texts to Albanian in the same period.


    Schumacher and Matzinger are concentrating their scholarship mostly on the work of Pjeter Bogdani, Archbishop of Prizren, who wrote half-a-century later. He is considered the most interesting Albanian early writer and the “father” of Albanian prose.


    Bogdani’s most famous work, The Story of Adam and Eve, his account of the first part of the Bible, is written in both Albanian and Italian. Matzinger says that when Bogdani published the book he was under some pressure from the Inquisition. As the Inquisition did not know Albanian, and were not sure what he wrote, they forced him to make an Italian translation, which is published in the left column of the book.


    “That is most useful because it means that no sentence in the book [in Albanian] is incomprehensible,” Matzinger says.


    Although numerous texts by Bogdani, Budi and some others survive, the variety of authors, mainly Catholic clerics, is small. “It would be interesting if we had a bigger variety of authors, though we’re grateful enough for what we do have,” Schumacher says.


    According to Schumacher, from the Middle Ages onwards, languages throughout the Balkans tended to become more similar to one another, suggesting a high level of linguistic “exchange” between populations in the region.


    “A lot of people used a number of languages every day, and this is one way in which languages influence each other,” Schumacher says. “The difficult thing is that this runs counter to nationalist theories,” he adds.


    Drawing on genetic terminology, linguists term this process of language exchange language “bastardization”.


    Following the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, the phenomenon of language bastardization has taken a new twist, moving in the opposite direction, as each newly formed state acts to shore up its own unique linguistic identity.


    Before the common state collapsed, four of the six constituent republics, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro, shared a common language known as Serbo-Croat.


    But since declaring independence in 1991, Croatia has consciously highlighted the distinct character of its language, now called “Croatian”.


    Bosnian Muslims have made similar efforts in Bosnia and Herzegovina, promoting official use of a codified “Bosniak” language.


    Montenegro, which remained in a loose state union with Serbia until 2006, then appeared content not to have its own separate language. But after independence, a new constitution adopted on October 2007 named the official language as Montenegrin.


    Similar calls to foster a separate national language have been heard in Kosovo, drawing on the northern Albanian “Gegh” dialect, though none of these initiatives has received official encouragement.


    Out of language, an identity:


    The study of Balkan languages came of age in the later 19th century as the Ottoman Empire began disintegrating and as intellectuals tasked with creating new nations out of its rubble turned to language to help forge national identities.




    Cover of Adam and Eve, from Pjeter Bogdani | Photo by : Stefan Schumacher
    According Schumacher, each country in the Balkans forged its own national myth, just as Germany or the US had done earlier, with a view to creating foundations for a shared identity.


    “In the late 19th century, language was the only element that everyone could identify with,” says Schumacher.


    He described the use of linguistics in national mythology as understandable, considering the context and the time when these countries gained independence.


    “It’s not easy to create an identity for Albanians if you just say that they descend from mountains tribes about whom the historians of antiquity wrote nothing,” he notes.


    The friction between ideological myth and reality, when it comes to forging national identity, and laying claim to territory, is not unique to Albania.


    Schumacher points out that Romanian history books teach that Romanians descend from the Roman legionnaires who guarded the Roman province of Dacia – a questionable theory to which few non-Romanians lend much credence, but which shores up Romania’s claim to Transylvania, a land to which Hungarians historically also lay claim.


    “The Romanian language developed somewhere south of the Danube, but Romanians don’t want to admit that because the Hungarians can claim that they have been there before,” notes Schumacher.


    “None of them is older or younger,” says Schumacher. “Languages are like a bacterium that splits up in two and than splits up in two again and when you have 32 bacteria in the end, they are all the same,” he added.


    The two Austrian linguists say that within European academia, Albanian is one of the most neglected languages, which provides an opportunity to conduct pioneering work.


    Although the extant texts have been known for a long time, “they hardly ever been looked at properly”, Schumacher says. “They were mostly read by scholars of Albanian in order to find, whatever they wanted to find,” he adds.
    One does not need to be a linguist to know that much of the present day Albanian comes from Early Latin (bc).
    10% of Alb language is from Early Greek. (bc)
    There is small percentage from Gothic
    To say that in these conditions Alb language comes from Caucasus means that the person communicating with is a regular patient of a mental facility.
    About Austrian historians who deny connection between Alb and Illyrian: They Also say that alb language is the source of all European languages. If you believe that then you have to believe that the foundation of Slavic languages is Alb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    Garrick,

    You never fail to crack me up. You know deep down that to deny the Illyrian origin of Albanians is like pissing against the wind, yet you try by any means to obfuscate the obvious by combing some selected quotes to cater your inferiority complex. That Albanian evolved chiefly from Illyrian, consisting a modern stage of Illyrian, as Mayer coined the expression, is not stated solely by Albanians. It's a largely-held view, in short the most widespread conclusion among scholars. Arguing with you is like talking to a brick wall; you just get tired pointlessly. I deliberately brought up some Serbian scholars who dwellt upon this question; both of them alike were mildly supportive to the view which sees Albanians as being natives to their present-day areas.

    ...
    What wrong with your writing?

    Yes in old texts in 19 century and a later (especially in time of Enver Hoxha) there were linguists who clam that Albanian and Illyrian are connected.

    But how science has progressed linguists have noticed that evidence which would confirm the similarity of these languages doesn't exist.

    Today it is clear that connection between Albanian and Illyrian is empty talk.

    I give hard adamant facts but there are people who refuse facts.

    Linguistic Research Center, The University of Texas at Austin, USA

    Brian Joseph, Angelo Costanzo, and Jonathan Slocum

    http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...albol-0-X.html

    Albanian forms a separate branch of Indo-European and cannot conclusively be closely connected with any other Indo-European language. There have been attempts to connect Albanian with some of the sparsely attested ancient languages of the Balkans, particularly Illyrian but also Dacian and Thracian. While this is plausible geographically, given that we know the Illyrians lived in an area that includes the modern Albanian-speaking area, there is no concrete linguistic evidence for any of these proposals. Some have proposed a connection between the ancestor of Albanian (without assigning a specific identity to this ancestor) and a Latinized variety of that ancestor that may have ultimately yielded Romanian, as there are several shared words not of Latin origin in both languages.
    ...

    Linguists clearly say that evidence about connection Albanian and Illyrian doesn't exist but Albanians here in forum not just what they are trying in various ways to refuse hard adamant facts that evidence doesn't exist, but they try with offensive vocabulary to discredit those who write that Albanian has no connection with Illyrian which is scientific fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    One does not need to be a linguist to know that much of the present day Albanian comes from Early Latin (bc).
    10% of Alb language is from Early Greek. (bc)
    There is small percentage from Gothic
    To say that in these conditions Alb language comes from Caucasus means that the person communicating with is a regular patient of a mental facility.
    About Austrian historians who deny connection between Alb and Illyrian: They Also say that alb language is the source of all European languages. If you believe that then you have to believe that the foundation of Slavic languages is Alb.

    The easiest thing is the insult of opponent. But it is so frivolous.
    ...

    New Zealand scientists used new computational-modeling method. Their result is that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranic language.



    My assumption is that proto Albanian originated probably somewhere in between (today's) Caucasus, northern Iran and eastern Turkey, maybe around Caspian sea. I suppose that carriers of R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype (and it is possible with carriers some another haplogoups) created this language. Albanian is Indo-European, Satem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Linguists clearly say that evidence about connection Albanian and Illyrian doesn't exist but Albanians here in forum not just what they are trying in various ways to refuse hard adamant facts that evidence doesn't exist, but they try with offensive vocabulary to discredit those who write that Albanian has no connection with Illyrian which is scientific fact.
    It's their's to prove it, let 'em try. Abeis, can you post a table with Illyrian words, where/how they are attested, and an Albanian parallel ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    It's their's to prove it, let 'em try. Abeis, can you post a table with Illyrian words, where/how they are attested, and an Albanian parallel ?
    I really get incensed that all my patient efforts to incite a scholarly debate were fruitless. Individuals like Garrick have not the faintest idea about linguistics, yet they pretend to show themselves off as being accomplished scholars. When he's pressed hard to explain his stance, he emits a high pitched squeal with some random condescending remarks that stray away from the topic. It's so obnoxious, isn't? He knows pretty well the weakness of his position, yet he's trying desperately to escape by introducing peripheral arguments, uncorroborated claims and a plethora of half truths and faint facts to match a wished-for conclusion. Things like that give me a pain in the butt

    You want to proceed further scrutinizing all extant evidence of Illyrian drawn from onomastics. Let us take a stab at it and be done with it! Apart from some lexical items, Albanian shares certain linguistic innovations with Illyrian. One must tackle the problem at its entirety: the time when PIE languages broke off from one another, got their peculiarities and came to settle permanently on their historical seats. Illyrian can be shoehorned with Albanian for the following reasons:

    1. Both of them display the pattern of merging aspirated stops with un-aspirated ones. This very ancient development provides an interesting clue to delineate their likeliest group of affiliation: NW Indo-European, standing in nearby of Baltic, Dacian and Slavic.

    2. IE *o gives a regular outcome /a/, an additional phonetic shift which set both Albanian and Illyrian in the same boat.

    3. The prevocalic /*s/ is preserved both in Albanian and Illyrian, a rather conservative feature which account for their distinct character.

    4. The diphthong /nd/ is being dissimilated in /n/ which occurred both in Albanian and Illyrian.

    5. Illyrian explicit material is so slim, yet there seems some good reasons to discern some new glosses out of place-names. Thus Ulcinium (*ulekw-os) contains *Ulc-, which has as its cognate alb. ulk; Dalmatia contains either *dalm-, *delm- as the likely Illyrian word for ,sheep', evincing a relation with alb. delme; Dardania conveys a possible Illyrian word *dard- (pear), being the same with alb. dardhë and the list goes further.

    6. Certain Illyrian place-names or river-names are preserved all over present-day Albanian territories. A descent number of them points out to the fact that proto-Albanian speakers were single-handedly responsible from transmitting them without any detraction. For example the Illyrian place-nameΣκόδρα is considered as the oldest form of modern Shkodra. The consonant cluster /sk/ is palatalized in line with laws governing Albanian phonetics as /shk/, whereas /dr/ remained untainted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Here this article/research is couple years ago i might post it,it is not by that Serbian propaganda but by Austrian scholars,revial the myths.
    Not sure whether to laugh or cry, but this really pisses me off. For the life of me I don't get why such a hasty on citing a crappy journalist article twisting Matzinger's position. If you had an ounce of seriousness, you would already read any article of him which are available on internet. Matzinger does not deny Illyrian origin of Albanians, he just tries to locate the earliest seats of Albanians acknowledging Dardania as the most plausible source where proto-Albanians spring from. Furthermore, he recognizes some irrefutable links between Messapic (a sibling language with Illyrian) and Albanian.

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