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Thread: Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    You want to proceed further scrutinizing all extant evidence of Illyrian drawn from onomastics. Let us take a stab at it and be done with it! Apart from some lexical items, Albanian shares certain linguistic innovations with Illyrian. One must tackle the problem at its entirety: the time when PIE languages broke off from one another, got their peculiarities and came to settle permanently on their historical seats. Illyrian can be shoehorned with Albanian for the following reasons:

    1. Both of them display the pattern of merging aspirated stops with un-aspirated ones. This very ancient development provides an interesting clue to delineate their likeliest group of affiliation: NW Indo-European, standing in nearby of Baltic, Dacian and Slavic.

    2. IE *o gives a regular outcome /a/, an additional phonetic shift which set both Albanian and Illyrian in the same boat.

    3. The prevocalic /*s/ is preserved both in Albanian and Illyrian, a rather conservative feature which account for their distinct character.

    4. The diphthong /nd/ is being dissimilated in /n/ which occurred both in Albanian and Illyrian.

    5. Illyrian explicit material is so slim, yet there seems some good reasons to discern some new glosses out of place-names. Thus Ulcinium (*ulekw-os) contains *Ulc-, which has as its cognate alb. ulk; Dalmatia contains either *dalm-, *delm- as the likely Illyrian word for ,sheep', evincing a relation with alb. delme; Dardania conveys a possible Illyrian word *dard- (pear), being the same with alb. dardhë and the list goes further.

    6. Certain Illyrian place-names or river-names are preserved all over present-day Albanian territories. A descent number of them points out to the fact that proto-Albanian speakers were single-handedly responsible from transmitting them without any detraction. For example the Illyrian place-nameΣκόδρα is considered as the oldest form of modern Shkodra. The consonant cluster /sk/ is palatalized in line with laws governing Albanian phonetics as /shk/, whereas /dr/ remained untainted.
    I am familiar with the majority of postulates, but I was hoping to find an exact list with examples in Albanian, with pronunciation. Some of these things may have a weight, but some of them may be meaningless. The biggest problem for European scholars is that they have no or very little knowledge of Albanian, and there is no will to learn Albanian language, so we all leave it "as is" and take these postulates as granted, while not knowing the true extent and impact they have on the form of Albanian language.

    Albanians on forums usually just repeat those and things alike as some sort of evidence, which they are not. They may be strong indicators, but not an evidence. FWIW Illyrian is poorly attested and PIE and it's diphthongs even more, and one has to make a very strong point for this to be accepted. I would like to see some effort from Albanian linguists' side, trying to convince others how and why these things are important and unique in Albanian language, with abundant set of examples. We also have to make a comparative analysis with other neighbouring languages to rule them out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Initially i did not intend to intervene in this thread. But after reading this post:

    i decided to say few words.
    So we have here two serb members with their strange and alternative theories, and Sille which as usually expresses his sympathy to the Albanians.





    This forums are a possibility for people to discuss. There is nothing wrong If be discussed, various alternative theories. The problem with Serbs is that all of their discussions about Albanians, in all forums, are ridiculous and alternative discussions.
    These people, the Serbs, in their school books teach that Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians. Once they join a forum, they forget what they have learned in school and change suddenly in trollls.

    Why this?


    The problem with the Serbs is that they suffer from an inferiority complex. Their situation can be explain with this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
    It is a universally known fact that in the Balkans, Serbs had come from Asia. There are different theories for the origin of the Serbs, ranging from distant Siberia and Afghanistan and to the theory until now acceptable, according to which the Serbs originated somewhere in Caucasus or somewhere around Caspian Sea


    All this is ridiculous. Go ahead guys.
    much appreciated

    But when all is said, the Illyrian-Bosnians have the bulk of I2 dna which is over 5000 years older than the bulk of Illyrian-Albanian E ydna

    The simple conclusion is the If illyrians are in all of what is Roman Illyricium, then the only clear cut marker is I2 ..........

    And Slavs are neither Illyrians if this is your concern
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    It's their's to prove it, let 'em try. Abeis, can you post a table with Illyrian words, where/how they are attested, and an Albanian parallel ?

    You will see, nobody from Albanian will not comment facts which give Joseph, Costanzo and Slocum.

    But they try to discredit who mention these authors, but such way of discreditation is immature.

    About respecting other people's opinions and the culture of dialogue, there are no words.

    And they will put linguists who lived before 200-300 years.

    Because connection between Illyrian and Albanian is empty talk.

    Except for Enver Hoxha way of thinking.

    But Slavic (mostly Serbian) contributed to Albanian with about 1000 words.

    Albanian borrowed from Slavic (mostly Serbian) mainly nouns, then verbs.

    Svane (1992),
    some words which Albanian borrowed from Slavic (Serbian, Bulgarian):

    plow: plug (Serbian) - pllug (Albanian)

    tool, implements: oruđe (Serb.) - orendi (Alb.)

    cucumber: krastavac (Serb.) - kastravec (Alb.)

    donkey: magarac (Serb.), магаре (Bulgarian) - magare (Alb.)

    hill: breg (Serb.) - breg (Alb.)

    bone: kost (Serb.) - kockë (Alb.)

    teen, need: nevolja (Serb.) - nevojë (Alb.)

    rich: bogat (Serb.), begat (Alb.)

    order: poručiti (Serb.) поръчвам (Bulg.) - porosit (Alb.)

    ...

    There are sources which claim that when Albanians came to todays Albania (between 5-10 century, probably 8-9 century), there were Greeks, Armanji (Aromunians), Serbs and maybe Bulgarians. And it is clear that Albanian was able to borrow Slavic (Serbian and Bulgarian) words. Of course Slavic words Albanian could borrow earlier, in Romania, Ukraine, Moldavia. And why not, Slavic languages could borrow from Albanian. Albanian and Slavic languages have long mingled in various areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    I really get incensed that all my patient efforts to incite a scholarly debate were fruitless. Individuals like Garrick have not the faintest idea about linguistics, yet they pretend to show themselves off as being accomplished scholars. When he's pressed hard to explain his stance, he emits a high pitched squeal with some random condescending remarks that stray away from the topic. It's so obnoxious, isn't? He knows pretty well the weakness of his position, yet he's trying desperately to escape by introducing peripheral arguments, uncorroborated claims and a plethora of half truths and faint facts to match a wished-for conclusion. Things like that give me a pain in the butt

    You want to proceed further scrutinizing all extant evidence of Illyrian drawn from onomastics. Let us take a stab at it and be done with it! Apart from some lexical items, Albanian shares certain linguistic innovations with Illyrian. One must tackle the problem at its entirety: the time when PIE languages broke off from one another, got their peculiarities and came to settle permanently on their historical seats. Illyrian can be shoehorned with Albanian for the following reasons:

    1. Both of them display the pattern of merging aspirated stops with un-aspirated ones. This very ancient development provides an interesting clue to delineate their likeliest group of affiliation: NW Indo-European, standing in nearby of Baltic, Dacian and Slavic.

    2. IE *o gives a regular outcome /a/, an additional phonetic shift which set both Albanian and Illyrian in the same boat.

    3. The prevocalic /*s/ is preserved both in Albanian and Illyrian, a rather conservative feature which account for their distinct character.

    4. The diphthong /nd/ is being dissimilated in /n/ which occurred both in Albanian and Illyrian.

    5. Illyrian explicit material is so slim, yet there seems some good reasons to discern some new glosses out of place-names. Thus Ulcinium (*ulekw-os) contains *Ulc-, which has as its cognate alb. ulk; Dalmatia contains either *dalm-, *delm- as the likely Illyrian word for ,sheep', evincing a relation with alb. delme; Dardania conveys a possible Illyrian word *dard- (pear), being the same with alb. dardhë and the list goes further.

    6. Certain Illyrian place-names or river-names are preserved all over present-day Albanian territories. A descent number of them points out to the fact that proto-Albanian speakers were single-handedly responsible from transmitting them without any detraction. For example the Illyrian place-nameΣκόδρα is considered as the oldest form of modern Shkodra. The consonant cluster /sk/ is palatalized in line with laws governing Albanian phonetics as /shk/, whereas /dr/ remained untainted.



    Not sure whether to laugh or cry, but this really pisses me off. For the life of me I don't get why such a hasty on citing a crappy journalist article twisting Matzinger's position. If you had an ounce of seriousness, you would already read any article of him which are available on internet. Matzinger does not deny Illyrian origin of Albanians, he just tries to locate the earliest seats of Albanians acknowledging Dardania as the most plausible source where proto-Albanians spring from. Furthermore, he recognizes some irrefutable links between Messapic (a sibling language with Illyrian) and Albanian.
    illyrian personnel names

    found only in southern austria to southern croatia and across to southern Bosnia

    anaeus = austria area ...also found annaius and annaeus

    bateia = pannonia ........also found there is bato

    batelis = southern slovenia

    binhdo = illyrian womens name from the delmatae tribe

    candala = mans name among the delmatae ...............matches place name in austria candalicae

    dasius = croatia and pannonia

    dastro = womens name from the delmatae tribe ................also widely used by women when illyria was under Rome.

    epantia = from croatia area of illyrian japontes tribe, origin from pantia

    lavus = from delmatae tribe also used the name lavi

    liccaius = from pannonia and croatia tribes, name found on 2 illyrian seals

    messia and messor
    = delmatae tribe where the danube meet the sava river

    panes = delmatae tribe

    sutta = austrian area

    yemaio = used also as surname, unsure of origins

    All the following are from Noricum Austria - darbosa, blaus, camaius, cemaia, tromperus

    endings with aio and eio are not guaranteed illyrian, but could be of celtic mix with illyrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    I really get incensed that all my patient efforts to incite a scholarly debate were fruitless. Individuals like Garrick have not the faintest idea about linguistics, yet they pretend to show themselves off as being accomplished scholars. When he's pressed hard to explain his stance, he emits a high pitched squeal with some random condescending remarks that stray away from the topic. It's so obnoxious, isn't? He knows pretty well the weakness of his position, yet he's trying desperately to escape by introducing peripheral arguments, uncorroborated claims and a plethora of half truths and faint facts to match a wished-for conclusion. Things like that give me a pain in the butt

    You want to proceed further scrutinizing all extant evidence of Illyrian drawn from onomastics. Let us take a stab at it and be done with it! Apart from some lexical items, Albanian shares certain linguistic innovations with Illyrian. One must tackle the problem at its entirety: the time when PIE languages broke off from one another, got their peculiarities and came to settle permanently on their historical seats. Illyrian can be shoehorned with Albanian for the following reasons:

    1. Both of them display the pattern of merging aspirated stops with un-aspirated ones. This very ancient development provides an interesting clue to delineate their likeliest group of affiliation: NW Indo-European, standing in nearby of Baltic, Dacian and Slavic.

    2. IE *o gives a regular outcome /a/, an additional phonetic shift which set both Albanian and Illyrian in the same boat.

    3. The prevocalic /*s/ is preserved both in Albanian and Illyrian, a rather conservative feature which account for their distinct character.

    4. The diphthong /nd/ is being dissimilated in /n/ which occurred both in Albanian and Illyrian.

    5. Illyrian explicit material is so slim, yet there seems some good reasons to discern some new glosses out of place-names. Thus Ulcinium (*ulekw-os) contains *Ulc-, which has as its cognate alb. ulk; Dalmatia contains either *dalm-, *delm- as the likely Illyrian word for ,sheep', evincing a relation with alb. delme; Dardania conveys a possible Illyrian word *dard- (pear), being the same with alb. dardhë and the list goes further.

    6. Certain Illyrian place-names or river-names are preserved all over present-day Albanian territories. A descent number of them points out to the fact that proto-Albanian speakers were single-handedly responsible from transmitting them without any detraction. For example the Illyrian place-nameΣκόδρα is considered as the oldest form of modern Shkodra. The consonant cluster /sk/ is palatalized in line with laws governing Albanian phonetics as /shk/, whereas /dr/ remained untainted.



    Not sure whether to laugh or cry, but this really pisses me off. For the life of me I don't get why such a hasty on citing a crappy journalist article twisting Matzinger's position. If you had an ounce of seriousness, you would already read any article of him which are available on internet. Matzinger does not deny Illyrian origin of Albanians, he just tries to locate the earliest seats of Albanians acknowledging Dardania as the most plausible source where proto-Albanians spring from. Furthermore, he recognizes some irrefutable links between Messapic (a sibling language with Illyrian) and Albanian.
    We read about this more time.

    You have not say anything new.

    And who search in Slavic languages or another IE can find similar, but it does not speak about continuity of Slavic language or Albanian language, neither Albanians or Slavs are descedants of Illyrians.

    World recognized authority for Illyrians, John Wilkes wrote that Albanians cannot link with Illyrians through language or anything else.

    He argues that Albanian is Satem and Illyrian is Centum and nobody cannot find continuity between them, these two languages are mutualy exclusive.

    John Wilkes completely crashed Illyrian Albanian myth, he led research in Yugoslavia and Albania and basis on sceletal evidence he concluded that Albanians have no links with Illyrians (after that and DNA evidence has confirmed his conclusions).

    No one Albanian has published a critical paper of Wilkes monumental study. Why? Therefore and Albanians know Wilkes is right but most do not talk about it.

    It is fun what you gave yourself Illyrian name for forum, but it doesn't matter,

    here is your chance:

    you will conduct a serious multidisciplinary scientific research, and attempt to deny Mr. Wilkes.

    You can do it, no doubt.

    We are waiting for your conclusions.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Abeis to you all things all ends that Albanian is ancestor of Illyrian,i think that you don't even know the situation in the Roman province Illyricum,just as Taranis reply to you couple languages are recorded there according to toponymy not one,Antonio Sciarretta is researcher of those old toponyms in the province of Illyricum,this is what he writes about it;

    The linguistic situation of the Roman province of Illyricum is rather unclear and highly disputed between supporters of its (at least partly) satem feature.Moreover, this hypothetic satem language is often intepreted as to be the ancestor of the modern Albanian language.


    Actually, toponymy suggests that there was at least one satem stratum, in Illyria proper and surprisingly in the inner part of southern Dalmatia (parts of today Hercegovina, Montenegro and Sandjak). However, this language cannot be the direct ancestor of Albanian for many reasons. It may tentatively be identified with a Mysian-like language. Continuity theory supporters would rather suggest that it should be identified with an early Slavic language, already present close to the historical Slavic domain.


    In Liburnia, a Venetic stratum is easily recognizable for the typical presence of an f from PIE *bh, dh. As recognized by Georgiev and others, Venetic has nothing to do with "Illyrian".


    In the rest of Liburnia, in Dalmatia, and in part of Illyria proper, a poorly characterized linguistic stratum may be reconstructed from some typical suffixes, like -etium from *-ent-, from the development of sonants like *n>un and generally for many points of contact with the opposite side of the Adriatic sea. especially Samnium and Apulia. This stratum has been called here Illyrian for what concerning Apulia. Possibly this group of languages coincides with the "Central Illyrian-Pannonian" of the classification (based on anthroponyms) of Katicic'.

    I Should add that Albanian words for fish etc are borrowed from other languages which suggest that they were not living near sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Abeis to you all things all ends that Albanian is ancestor of Illyrian,i think that you don't even know the situation in the Roman province Illyricum,just as Taranis reply to you couple languages are recorded there according to toponymy not one,Antonio Sciarretta is researcher of those old toponyms in the province of Illyricum,this is what he writes about it;

    The linguistic situation of the Roman province of Illyricum is rather unclear and highly disputed between supporters of its (at least partly) satem feature.Moreover, this hypothetic satem language is often intepreted as to be the ancestor of the modern Albanian language.


    Actually, toponymy suggests that there was at least one satem stratum, in Illyria proper and surprisingly in the inner part of southern Dalmatia (parts of today Hercegovina, Montenegro and Sandjak). However, this language cannot be the direct ancestor of Albanian for many reasons. It may tentatively be identified with a Mysian-like language. Continuity theory supporters would rather suggest that it should be identified with an early Slavic language, already present close to the historical Slavic domain.


    In Liburnia, a Venetic stratum is easily recognizable for the typical presence of an f from PIE *bh, dh. As recognized by Georgiev and others, Venetic has nothing to do with "Illyrian".


    In the rest of Liburnia, in Dalmatia, and in part of Illyria proper, a poorly characterized linguistic stratum may be reconstructed from some typical suffixes, like -etium from *-ent-, from the development of sonants like *n>un and generally for many points of contact with the opposite side of the Adriatic sea. especially Samnium and Apulia. This stratum has been called here Illyrian for what concerning Apulia. Possibly this group of languages coincides with the "Central Illyrian-Pannonian" of the classification (based on anthroponyms) of Katicic'.

    I Should add that Albanian words for fish etc are borrowed from other languages which suggest that they were not living near sea.
    Question is if he understand what you ask him. I appreciate every member and it is not offense, but he mixes very different things and does not respect authorities.

    Question between Illyrian and Albanian is solved, science has found that proofs for connectivity Illyrian and Albanian don't exist.

    But for me is much more interesting linking Slavic languages and Albanian, and more linguists participate in this, it is important for Eupedia readers.

    Bulgarian and another scientists found a large numbers of toponyms of Slavic (Serbian and Bulgarian) origin in Albania.

    This is only small sample and by one Bulgarian author:

    Список славянских топографических названий в Албании.
    Славянское население в Албании
    А. Селищев


    Бабица
    Бабонье
    Бабунья Бабонье
    Balari
    Баништа
    Баня
    Бацка Бачка
    Бачка
    Бачова
    Баштова
    Башча
    Бела
    Белабрада
    Белай
    Б лград
    Б ле могиле
    Белина
    Белица Горна Долна
    Беличица
    Белишова
    Белова
    Беловода
    Белче
    Белъград
    Бежани
    Берагожда
    Берат
    Берзана
    Беришинь доль
    Беровичка
    Бестрова
    Бигори
    Бистрица
    Bjelica
    Блата
    Блаца
    Блаче
    Бобичко
    Боборава
    Бобоштица, Бобошчица
    Богдан
    Богоница Богуница b
    Богуница
    Богшик Белева
    Бодриста Бодришта
    Бодришта
    Божаник
    Bosanic Божаник
    Божиград
    Божица
    Bo ik' Божица
    Боз
    Бозбрегас
    Бозовец
    Бозовци Бозовец
    Бойдан
    Борова
    Борич
    ...
    etc

    What is interesting, there are Slavic toponyms the most in Southern Albania, although it generally has throughout whole Albania.

    According these toponyms Serbs and Bulgars lived in whole Albania. Question is when Albanians came to today's Albania.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    illyrian personnel names

    found only in southern austria to southern croatia and across to southern Bosnia

    anaeus = austria area ...also found annaius and annaeus
    bateia = pannonia ........also found there is bato
    batelis = southern slovenia
    binhdo = illyrian womens name from the delmatae tribe
    candala = mans name among the delmatae ...............matches place name in austria candalicae
    dasius = croatia and pannonia
    dastro = womens name from the delmatae tribe ................also widely used by women when illyria was under Rome.
    epantia = from croatia area of illyrian japontes tribe, origin from pantia
    lavus = from delmatae tribe also used the name lavi
    liccaius = from pannonia and croatia tribes, name found on 2 illyrian seals
    messia and messor
    = delmatae tribe where the danube meet the sava river
    panes = delmatae tribe
    sutta = austrian area
    yemaio = used also as surname, unsure of origins
    All the following are from Noricum Austria - darbosa, blaus, camaius, cemaia, tromperus

    endings with aio and eio are not guaranteed illyrian, but could be of celtic mix with illyrian.

    OK, but what we know about the original forms? This set of names seems to me too diverse and not stemming from a single language. For example lots of names, like Liccaius, seems to be Latinized. What does the seal exactly say? What period was it from, before or after Romanization? Is it only the Latin suffix, or the name was transliterated? Whatever books you read, things get very uncertain, like:

    1. What this means? Some say Butta, some Sutta, and then they propose Illyrian origin. Is the name attested or not? This is not serious...

    Weber, LUPA and Clauss/Slaby read Sutta and an "Illyrian" origin of the name has been suggested. If reading as Butta is correct, the name is etymologically related to either PCelt. *butā- 'dwelling, place, hut' (EDPC 84) (cf. OIr. both, MW bod) or pace Meid 261 from the PIE root *bhū- 'to hit' (cf. OIr. bibdu 'enemy, guilty')

    http://www.univie.ac.at/austria-celt...tails.php?id=8


    2. Is it Iadastin as in Dustin Hoffman, or it is Iadasin as in Slavic Radasin. That syllable /t/ can't just pop-up in there from nothing
    Is it Iadro as Jadran which is the name for the Adriatic sea, or is it like Iader (city of Zadar). This is the same case as with foreigners trying to write Thracian. Again Greek transliteration?

    iadastin.jpg


    http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/10470/1/10470_7267-vol1.PDF


    3. Etc... This lists can go on and on. This is all very inconclusive, inconvincible, and needs a reexamination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    OK, but what we know about the original forms? This set of names seems to me too diverse and not stemming from a single language. For example lots of names, like Liccaius, seems to be Latinized. What does the seal exactly say? What period was it from, before or after Romanization? Is it only the Latin suffix, or the name was transliterated? Whatever books you read, things get very uncertain, like:

    1. What this means? Some say Butta, some Sutta, and then they propose Illyrian origin. Is the name attested or not? This is not serious...

    Weber, LUPA and Clauss/Slaby read Sutta and an "Illyrian" origin of the name has been suggested. If reading as Butta is correct, the name is etymologically related to either PCelt. *butā- 'dwelling, place, hut' (EDPC 84) (cf. OIr. both, MW bod) or pace Meid 261 from the PIE root *bhū- 'to hit' (cf. OIr. bibdu 'enemy, guilty')

    http://www.univie.ac.at/austria-celt...tails.php?id=8


    2. Is it Iadastin as in Dustin Hoffman, or it is Iadasin as in Slavic Radasin. That syllable /t/ can't just pop-up in there from nothing
    Is it Iadro as Jadran which is the name for the Adriatic sea, or is it like Iader (city of Zadar). This is the same case as with foreigners trying to write Thracian. Again Greek transliteration?

    iadastin.jpg


    http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/10470/1/10470_7267-vol1.PDF


    3. Etc... This lists can go on and on. This is all very inconclusive, inconvincible, and needs a reexamination.


    And I agree with some being latinized from illyrian Sutta to latinized Suttihus as per the person noted Aelius Suttihus, who was Romanized.

    These names cover a period of 500bc to 10ad

    The conclusion of the study from Ruhr-Universitat Bochum is that the Pannonnii and the Delmatae spoken the same language and the other illyrian tribes who where neighbours of these , like the liburnians, Iazepes etc spoke a very different language.

    But I think we all know this is the case with the illyrians and why we find very little script to a people that existed for at least 800 years.


    BTW, I just found this 10 year old study...page 17 is the linguistic divide.............its in Spanish so I cannot decipher everything in the paper

    http://www.anthroinsula.org/resource...esentation.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    OK, but what we know about the original forms? This set of names seems to me too diverse and not stemming from a single language. For example lots of names, like Liccaius, seems to be Latinized. What does the seal exactly say? What period was it from, before or after Romanization? Is it only the Latin suffix, or the name was transliterated? Whatever books you read, things get very uncertain, like:

    1. What this means? Some say Butta, some Sutta, and then they propose Illyrian origin. Is the name attested or not? This is not serious...

    Weber, LUPA and Clauss/Slaby read Sutta and an "Illyrian" origin of the name has been suggested. If reading as Butta is correct, the name is etymologically related to either PCelt. *butā- 'dwelling, place, hut' (EDPC 84) (cf. OIr. both, MW bod) or pace Meid 261 from the PIE root *bhū- 'to hit' (cf. OIr. bibdu 'enemy, guilty')

    http://www.univie.ac.at/austria-celt...tails.php?id=8


    2. Is it Iadastin as in Dustin Hoffman, or it is Iadasin as in Slavic Radasin. That syllable /t/ can't just pop-up in there from nothing
    Is it Iadro as Jadran which is the name for the Adriatic sea, or is it like Iader (city of Zadar). This is the same case as with foreigners trying to write Thracian. Again Greek transliteration?

    iadastin.jpg


    http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/10470/1/10470_7267-vol1.PDF


    3. Etc... This lists can go on and on. This is all very inconclusive, inconvincible, and needs a reexamination.
    You're right, but it is hard to someone achieve strict records, Sile's findings is interesting, anyway.

    Certainly, it is important to we know and Slavic toponyms in Albania and elsewhere in region.

    And modern linguists explore links Slavic languages (Serbian, Bulgarian, etc.) with Albanian and they find many common characteristics.

    To return to Illyrian names, a lot of names Bato, Batina, Bojken, Panto, Pantelia, Pajo, Tato etc. have cognates or meaning in Slavic languages.

    There are thinkings that Albanian took some words from Slavic which Slavic borrowed from Illyrian, these thinkings correspodent with with the assumption that Albanians came late in the territory of today's Albania and there were Slavs (fact is that Slavic toponyms are in whole Albania).

    Probably Slavic languages, Armanji (Aromanian), Albanian etc. borrowed from older languages, and of course, among themselves, newer research say to us that Albanian borrowed about 1000 Slavic words, mostly nouns.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    There are thinkings that Albanian took some words from Slavic which Slavic borrowed from Illyrian, these thinkings correspodent with with the assumption that Albanians came late in the territory of today's Albania and there were Slavs (fact is that Slavic toponyms are in whole Albania).
    If your hypothesis is true, then it is also possible that a small (compared to Slavs) group of Albanians, coming to Balkan in 5-10 century AD, had picked up some Illyrisque terminology from local half-Romanized population, especially high up in the mountains where Albanians claim their origins from, and which were not fully Slavicized for the sake of inhospitality. That makes things even more obscure, because that could also explain the remnants of Dorian and other ancient Greek and Latin morphologic forms, in the mountain refuge which was never fully embraced by the major language standardization trends in the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    I am familiar with the majority of postulates, but I was hoping to find an exact list with examples in Albanian, with pronunciatiohe
    Fair enough. You seem a balanced and very reasonable person which tends to delve the question from all sides. I highly appreciate this inquisitive attitude which is far more reasonable than processing with some pre-conceived notions as some Balkanites. I lay special emphasis to the phonetic and morphological features when it comes to pinpoint any eventual affiliation. If two languages have in common a set of certain lexical items, this is not of course to imply, any more than mutual influence. But if two languages display the very same innovations, phonetic shifts and morphological peculiarities, then there is some ground to establish a relatively secure affiliation between them. The following example is quite interesting:

    the pristine name of modern Brač island has been Brentista. When Greek colonization commenced in northern Adriatic, the Hellenized name was 'Ελαφοῦσσα (from 'Ελαφος ,deer'). Thus, it seems safe to surmise that Illyrian equivalent might have been *brentos, as Antun Mayer rightly conjectured. Heychius records the gloss as <βρένδον>· ἔλαφον, while a Byzantine manuscript states βρένδον δὲ καλοῦσι τὴν ἔλαφον Μεσάππιοι (Messapi called the deer 'Brendon'). Without taking into account a panoply of cognates which sprung from this very lexem, it should be noted that its root would have been the suffixed full-grade <*bhren-to. Albanian cognate ,bri(n)' (horn) is often drawn into comparison and not unjustly. Both forms kept intact the IE *e (Proto-Albanian *brenta). Messapic examples Βρένδον, Βρινδεῖν etc attest -nt- > -nd-, a phonetic shift which occurs in Albanian as well: when *nt is preceded by *e, it yields as /nd/ as in landë < PAlb. lenta. Having said that, this lexical item provides some interesting clues for both Illyrian and Albanian: the retention of IE *b and *e and the assimilation nt > nd when proceeded by -e. Of course, all this requires serious efforts but it does seem as a good point-of-departure to set out from positive evidences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    n. Some of these things may have a weight, but some of them may be meaningless
    Bear in mind that the idea of grouping together Illyrian and Albanian is further bolstered by historical and geographical factors. There is not an iota of evidence to assume that Latinization wiped out completely ancient idioms spoken in western parts of Balkans. As long as Albanian represents a language with a distinct outlook (retaining certain isoglosses with Balto-Slavic group and partly with Germanic one), it does seem correct to assume that its ancient predecessor was spoken into western Balkans, not elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    FWIW Illyrian is poorly attested and PIE and it's diphthongs even more, and one has to make a very strong point for this to be accepted.
    I do believe that Illyrian onomastic is relatively rich due to recent archaeological excavations. We can discern some valuable hints from onomastic, all the more so when IE comparative methodology brings astonishing results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    I would like to see some effort from Albanian linguists' side, trying to convince others how and why these things are important and unique in Albanian language, with abundant set of examples.
    I am well aware that we can only sketch some general premises for more insightful inquiries are needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    If your hypothesis is true, then it is also possible that a small (compared to Slavs) group of Albanians, coming to Balkan in 5-10 century AD, had picked up some Illyrisque terminology from local half-Romanized population, especially high up in the mountains where Albanians claim their origins from, and which were not fully Slavicized for the sake of inhospitality. That makes things even more obscure, because that could also explain the remnants of Dorian and other ancient Greek and Latin morphologic forms, in the mountain refuge which was never fully embraced by the major language standardization trends in the area.
    Highly improbable methinks. The idea of a massive migration from north-eastern Balkans is utterly untenable. As far as historical sources go, there is not any inkling detailing any population movement which would change drastically the ethnic make-up of Roman-held territories in western flanks of Penninsula. The claim that native communities were profusely Latinized (or Hellenized in south of the so-called Jircek line) makes even more improbable for how could a small tribe from Dacia succeed in subjugation a densely urbanized territory like that of Albania? Any migration would not have gone un-noticed, all the more so when Byzantine chroniclers noticed even small inroads of barbaric tribes. It's almost impossible for a population to sneak out un-noticed through the watchful eyes of Byzantines, let alone to wipe out a population twice of its number. Such a scenario would cause unbridled unrest but this is not the case. Indeed this ill-fated hypothesis was broached by Vladimir Georgiev, who refined the arguments of Weigand (another linguist who pored doubts about Illyrian origin of the Albanians). At first this was a mite startling but soon turned out to be totally unfounded for a myriad of reasons. The Dacian evidence is less clear than that of Illyrian: a large part of it evince no obvious connection with Albanian.

    To make a long story short, it's of utmost importance to scrutinize ancient borrowings of Albanian from either Greek or Latin, in order to set out a chronological framework. Albanian has heaps of Doric borrowings which presumably intruded through the vast network of Doric colonies. An analysis upon these loanwords led to the conclusion that most of them took place into Albanian vocabulary before Christ. The same goes for Latin borrowings. This argument provides an additional proof for locating proto-Albanian urheimat somewhere in nearby of north-west Greek dialects, that is the modern territory of Albania.

    P.S: The intrusion of proto-Albanian (i.e 'Illyrian' or a language sibling with Messapic) took place into a vaguely time, most likely around 2000 years BC, when IE dialect bearers engulfed Balkans. The primeval homeland of proto-Albanian must located into a territory which was somewhere in-between that of Proto-Balto-Slavic and proto-Iranian. Northern slopes of Carpathian mountains appears to be one of the early cradles of proto-Albanan; with the drift of time, proto-Illyro-Albanian shifted in south through Dacia, moving all the way to western chunks of Balkans; a stream of them went far beyond Balkans: the Messapi-speaking tribes. Whereas Proto-Balto-Slavic shifted farther north and then broke off into two distinct, yet closely related groups. This is why both Albanian, Baltic and Slavic share certain isoglosses (satem-like developments; delabialization of /o/, morphological features, etc, etc). Thus I am prone to subscribe to the hypothesis of H. Mayer who authored numerous articles concerning this vexing question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    Fair enough. You seem a balanced and very reasonable person which tends to delve the question from all sides. I highly appreciate this inquisitive attitude which is far more reasonable than processing with some pre-conceived notions as some Balkanites. I lay special emphasis to the phonetic and morphological features when it comes to pinpoint any eventual affiliation. If two languages have in common a set of certain lexical items, this is not of course to imply, any more than mutual influence. But if two languages display the very same innovations, phonetic shifts and morphological peculiarities, then there is some ground to establish a relatively secure affiliation between them. The following example is quite interesting:

    the pristine name of modern Brač island has been Brentista. When Greek colonization commenced in northern Adriatic, the Hellenized name was 'Ελαφοῦσσα (from 'Ελαφος ,deer'). Thus, it seems safe to surmise that Illyrian equivalent might have been *brentos, as Antun Mayer rightly conjectured. Heychius records the gloss as <βρένδον>· ἔλαφον, while a Byzantine manuscript states βρένδον δὲ καλοῦσι τὴν ἔλαφον Μεσάππιοι (Messapi called the deer 'Brendon'). Without taking into account a panoply of cognates which sprung from this very lexem, it should be noted that its root would have been the suffixed full-grade <*bhren-to. Albanian cognate ,bri(n)' (horn) is often drawn into comparison and not unjustly. Both forms kept intact the IE *e (Proto-Albanian *brenta). Messapic examples Βρένδον, Βρινδεῖν etc attest -nt- > -nd-, a phonetic shift which occurs in Albanian as well: when *nt is preceded by *e, it yields as /nd/ as in landë < PAlb. lenta. Having said that, this lexical item provides some interesting clues for both Illyrian and Albanian: the retention of IE *b and *e and the assimilation nt > nd when proceeded by -e. Of course, all this requires serious efforts but it does seem as a good point-of-departure to set out from positive evidences.

    Why such hard gymnastics to put together incompatible?

    So every Indo-European word lighter or heavier can be somehow merged with another word, even NON IE word, even the Bantu and Vietnamese, it is not offend.

    Nothing to do with Albanian expect we make gymnastics.

    Things are simpler.

    *BHRENTOS (*bʰrentos) is Germanic-Messapic issogloss, meaning stag

    Even Swedish word brinde is much more appropriate than Albanian (dre).

    Illyrian, Messapian etc. are CENTUM languages, CENTUM languages are mostly western branches, always someone first should search similar words or origin of word in CENTUM languages if we speak about Illyrian or Messapian.

    Albanian is SATEM as Baltic, Slavic, Dacian, Armenian, Iranian.
    Last edited by Garrick; 13-12-15 at 15:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    If your hypothesis is true, then it is also possible that a small (compared to Slavs) group of Albanians, coming to Balkan in 5-10 century AD, had picked up some Illyrisque terminology from local half-Romanized population, especially high up in the mountains where Albanians claim their origins from, and which were not fully Slavicized for the sake of inhospitality. That makes things even more obscure, because that could also explain the remnants of Dorian and other ancient Greek and Latin morphologic forms, in the mountain refuge which was never fully embraced by the major language standardization trends in the area.
    It is theory of Romanian scientists, and not only Romanian.

    Historians didn't accurately record because it is not a large group of people.

    They (part of them) moved from the area were lived parts of Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, it is possible and parts of Slovakia and Poland, to one part of Albania.

    Although in the Internet we can see movement from Romania over Hungary and Serbia to Albania, probably path was Romania-Bulgaria-Macedonia-Albania.

    And one of smaller part of Albania, not whole Albania.

    Bulgarian scientists with hard evidence proved powerful Slavic presence and huge number of Slavic toponyms in whole Albania , except for a smaller part.

    On basis of researches of Bulgarian scientists someone set image where from Free Dacian area Albanians came to part today's Albania somewhere 6-10 century (some people think their number were 50.000-100.000):




    Someone will notice that I give data of Western, Romanian, Bulgarian scientists, etc., and Albanian too, not Serbian, and it is true, I have nothing against Serbian sources but it is true I very rarely use Serbian sources.

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    Here is some Illyrian names from the region somewhere Albanians nowaday inhabit;

    King Bardilys powerful Illyrian king which subjected Macedon for some time,Albanians trace it to bardhe meaning white.

    In Slavic oral poetry Bardylis is called "Bradilo" which will mean "bearded man"
    Now Bardyllis you have the today Slavic-Brada meaning beard.
    From Proto-Balto-Slavic *bordዋʔ, from Proto-Indo-European *bʰardʰeh₂.Balto-Slavic cognates include Lithuanian barzda, Latvian bārda and Old Prussian bordus.Other Indo-European cognates include Latin barba, Old High German bart, English beard.Try to trace it otherwise?

    Audata granddaughter of Bardylis which become wife to Phillip of Macedon,Udata in Slavonic languages mean "married" from dati "to give"

    Bircenna was daugther of king Bardyllis which become wife of Pyrhus of Epirus,to my mind come Biser,Biseran meaning pearl,resembling pearls,present day names Bisera is common,i can't find origin of this word or cognates.

    Dardanos,Dardanians founder Dardanos,Albanians say is from Dardhe meaning pearl,but Dar and Dan,say Dardan "os" most probably Hellenized suffix, if connect this two i have the first "dar" meaning "gift" in Slavic- second "dan" mean given,which will translate as "given gift".founded well in present day Slavic names both "Dar" and "Dan" names like "Bogdan" from Bog and Dan mean "given by god"
    "Bozidar" from Bozi and Dar meaning "gift by god" and so on..

    I will like someone comment on this names if their is better explanation of their etymology.
    Last edited by Milan; 13-12-15 at 17:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    It is theory of Romanian scientists, and not only Romanian.

    Historians didn't accurately record because it is not a large group of people.

    They (part of them) moved from the area were lived parts of Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, it is possible and parts of Slovakia and Poland, to one part of Albania.

    Although in the Internet we can see movement from Romania over Hungary and Serbia to Albania, probably path was Romania-Bulgaria-Macedonia-Albania.

    And one of smaller part of Albania, not whole Albania.

    Bulgarian scientists with hard evidence proved powerful Slavic presence and huge number of Slavic toponyms in whole Albania , except for a smaller part.

    On basis of researches of Bulgarian scientists someone set image where from Free Dacian area Albanians came to part today's Albania somewhere 6-10 century (some people think their number were 50.000-100.000):




    Someone will notice that I give data of Western, Romanian, Bulgarian scientists, etc., and Albanian too, not Serbian, and it is true, I have nothing against Serbian sources but it is true I very rarely use Serbian sources.
    Genetics agree with this toponymy it is similar the northern Gegs have more E-v13 and J2 while southern Tosks have more I2 and R1a if i am not wrong and more similar with their Slavic neighbors and north Greece,will be interested in the language of Gegs and Tosks which has more exchanged or borrowed words and from which languages?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    Fair enough. You seem a balanced and very reasonable person which tends to delve the question from all sides. I highly appreciate this inquisitive attitude which is far more reasonable than processing with some pre-conceived notions as some Balkanites. I lay special emphasis to the phonetic and morphological features when it comes to pinpoint any eventual affiliation. If two languages have in common a set of certain lexical items, this is not of course to imply, any more than mutual influence. But if two languages display the very same innovations, phonetic shifts and morphological peculiarities, then there is some ground to establish a relatively secure affiliation between them. The following example is quite interesting:
    Agree.

    the pristine name of modern Brač island has been Brentista. When Greek colonization commenced in northern Adriatic, the Hellenized name was 'Ελαφοῦσσα (from 'Ελαφος ,deer'). Thus, it seems safe to surmise that Illyrian equivalent might have been *brentos, as Antun Mayer rightly conjectured.
    I personally dislike all forms containing suffixes -os, -is and -us because they smell of Latinization or Hellenisation. Unless Illyrian was closely related to Greek, I find proposed form *brentos not much possible. But let's stick with the root brent. BTW isn't the name of the Brač derived from the name for a music instrument. Italians call it braccio, and it would be indicative that it is derived from Italian, but I've found somewhere on the web that Czech also call it bratsche.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bra%C4%8D
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamburica
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bratsche


    Heychius records the gloss as <βρένδον>· ἔλαφον, while a Byzantine manuscript states βρένδον δὲ καλοῦσι τὴν ἔλαφον Μεσάππιοι (Messapi called the deer 'Brendon'). Without taking into account a panoply of cognates which sprung from this very lexem, it should be noted that its root would have been the suffixed full-grade <*bhren-to. Albanian cognate ,bri(n)' (horn) is often drawn into comparison and not unjustly. Both forms kept intact the IE *e (Proto-Albanian *brenta). Messapic examples Βρένδον, Βρινδεῖν etc attest -nt- > -nd-, a phonetic shift which occurs in Albanian as well: when *nt is preceded by *e, it yields as /nd/ as in landë < PAlb. lenta. Having said that, this lexical item provides some interesting clues for both Illyrian and Albanian: the retention of IE *b and *e and the assimilation nt > nd when proceeded by -e. Of course, all this requires serious efforts but it does seem as a good point-of-departure to set out from positive evidences.
    Ok, but how do you know that there has ever been a *brenta to start with in Albanian. Sorry but I'm totally unfamiliar with Albanian, all that comes to my mind is that we'd have to have something like a small set of irregular forms that didn't went through nt>nd in Albanian to confirm that the language evolved differently compared to the neighbouring ones.



    Bear in mind that the idea of grouping together Illyrian and Albanian is further bolstered by historical and geographical factors. There is not an iota of evidence to assume that Latinization wiped out completely ancient idioms spoken in western parts of Balkans. As long as Albanian represents a language with a distinct outlook (retaining certain isoglosses with Balto-Slavic group and partly with Germanic one), it does seem correct to assume that its ancient predecessor was spoken into western Balkans, not elsewhere.
    Now you omit the facts the pinpoint Albanian to the Eastern parts of Balkans. If we want to reconcile all the facts, but with the current knowledge, we'd have to say that it is a hybrid language.

    I do believe that Illyrian onomastic is relatively rich due to recent archaeological excavations. We can discern some valuable hints from onomastic, all the more so when IE comparative methodology brings astonishing results.

    I am well aware that we can only sketch some general premises for more insightful inquiries are needed.
    And I also hope that new research will give some interesting results, but I just don't feel we'll reach a breakthrough, unless Albanians themselves stop using science as a tool for political purpose in Enver Hoxha style. Their language is very odd and practically useless for Western kids, who therefore don't tend to study it. It seems that we currently have all our hopes on Albanians, but it's a far cry, when even their PhD's still in year 2015 repeat like parrots things like this:

    albanian-illyrian.jpg

    But if one is already convinced in this, off course (s)he will not be doing any constructive research on the subject.




    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    Highly improbable methinks. The idea of a massive migration from north-eastern Balkans is utterly untenable. As far as historical sources go, there is not any inkling detailing any population movement which would change drastically the ethnic make-up of Roman-held territories in western flanks of Penninsula.
    I would not go so far to claim it improbable. There wouldn't have to be a large migration, and we know that number of Albanians wasn't that large even in the 16th century:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...nia#Historical

    We can only guess what would have been numbers for a supposed migration, but I don't see a number of (let's say) 10.000 that much improbable.


    The claim that native communities were profusely Latinized (or Hellenized in south of the so-called Jircek line) makes even more improbable for how could a small tribe from Dacia succeed in subjugation a densely urbanized territory like that of Albania?
    Where did you get that it was densely urbanized? For all we know plague and wars demolished Balkans in medieval times to the point that Byzantine emperor was almost begging barbarians to come here to have some subjetcs to pay taxes.


    Any migration would not have gone un-noticed, all the more so when Byzantine chroniclers noticed even small inroads of barbaric tribes. It's almost impossible for a population to sneak out un-noticed through the watchful eyes of Byzantines, let alone to wipe out a population twice of its number.
    This is a sort of catch 22 for you :) If you believe that Byzantines were so attentive, and that they really had noticed every small tribe in the area, then you also must believe that there were no Albanians there before Byzantines first mentioned them.

    Such a scenario would cause unbridled unrest but this is not the case. Indeed this ill-fated hypothesis was broached by Vladimir Georgiev, who refined the arguments of Weigand (another linguist who pored doubts about Illyrian origin of the Albanians). At first this was a mite startling but soon turned out to be totally unfounded for a myriad of reasons. The Dacian evidence is less clear than that of Illyrian: a large part of it evince no obvious connection with Albanian.
    You start your scenario with populated areas and wiping of populations, but that is not the case. Even until recently those areas were very sparsely populated, and uninteresting for the conquerors.


    To make a long story short, it's of utmost importance to scrutinize ancient borrowings of Albanian from either Greek or Latin, in order to set out a chronological framework. Albanian has heaps of Doric borrowings which presumably intruded through the vast network of Doric colonies. An analysis upon these loanwords led to the conclusion that most of them took place into Albanian vocabulary before Christ. The same goes for Latin borrowings. This argument provides an additional proof for locating proto-Albanian urheimat somewhere in nearby of north-west Greek dialects, that is the modern territory of Albania.
    1. Agree.
    2. Heaps I'm looking for, and are needed for a good analysis, but only a handful have I found in publications. This again doesn't disprove a possibility that Albanian could be a hybrid of a Dorian dialect spoken in the remnants of ancient Macedonia in the time of possible arrival of Albanians in 5th-10th century

    P.S: The intrusion of proto-Albanian (i.e 'Illyrian' or a language sibling with Messapic) took place into a vaguely time, most likely around 2000 years BC, when IE dialect bearers engulfed Balkans. The primeval homeland of proto-Albanian must located into a territory which was somewhere in-between that of Proto-Balto-Slavic and proto-Iranian. Northern slopes of Carpathian mountains appears to be one of the early cradles of proto-Albanan; with the drift of time, proto-Illyro-Albanian shifted in south through Dacia, moving all the way to western chunks of Balkans; a stream of them went far beyond Balkans: the Messapi-speaking tribes. Whereas Proto-Balto-Slavic shifted farther north and then broke off into two distinct, yet closely related groups. This is why both Albanian, Baltic and Slavic share certain isoglosses (satem-like developments; delabialization of /o/, morphological features, etc, etc). Thus I am prone to subscribe to the hypothesis of H. Mayer who authored numerous articles concerning this vexing question.
    Possible. Albanian is a very weird apple on current linguistic map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    It is theory of Romanian scientists, and not only Romanian.
    Historians didn't accurately record because it is not a large group of people.
    They (part of them) moved from the area were lived parts of Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, it is possible and parts of Slovakia and Poland, to one part of Albania.
    Although in the Internet we can see movement from Romania over Hungary and Serbia to Albania, probably path was Romania-Bulgaria-Macedonia-Albania.
    And one of smaller part of Albania, not whole Albania.
    Bulgarian scientists with hard evidence proved powerful Slavic presence and huge number of Slavic toponyms in whole Albania , except for a smaller part.
    On basis of researches of Bulgarian scientists someone set image where from Free Dacian area Albanians came to part today's Albania somewhere 6-10 century (some people think their number were 50.000-100.000):




    Someone will notice that I give data of Western, Romanian, Bulgarian scientists, etc., and Albanian too, not Serbian, and it is true, I have nothing against Serbian sources but it is true I very rarely use Serbian sources.

    It seems you and Abeis support the same theory, just with a 2.000 years difference of arrival :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Here is some Illyrian names from the region somewhere Albanians nowaday inhabit;

    King Bardilys powerful Illyrian king which subjected Macedon for some time,Albanians trace it to bardhe meaning white.

    In Slavic oral poetry Bardylis is called "Bradilo" which will mean "bearded man"
    Now Bardyllis you have the today Slavic-Brada meaning beard.
    From Proto-Balto-Slavic *bordዋʔ, from Proto-Indo-European *bʰardʰeh₂.Balto-Slavic cognates include Lithuanian barzda, Latvian bārda and Old Prussian bordus.Other Indo-European cognates include Latin barba, Old High German bart, English beard.Try to trace it otherwise?

    Audata granddaughter of Bardylis which become wife to Phillip of Macedon,Udata in Slavonic languages mean "married" from dati "to give"

    Bircenna was daugther of king Bardyllis which become wife of Pyrhus of Epirus,to my mind come Biser,Biseran meaning pearl,resembling pearls,present day names Bisera is common,i can't find origin of this word or cognates.

    Dardanos,Dardanians founder Dardanos,Albanians say is from Dardhe meaning pearl,but Dar and Dan,say Dardan "os" most probably Hellenized suffix, if connect this two i have the first "dar" meaning "gift" in Slavic- second "dan" mean given,which will translate as "given gift".founded well in present day Slavic names both "Dar" and "Dan" names like "Bogdan" from Bog and Dan mean "given by god"
    "Bozidar" from Bozi and Dar meaning "gift by god" and so on..

    I will like someone comment on this names if their is better explanation of their etymology.

    If you want to search for Slavic etymology of these names, then you'd have to prove an existence of Slavic languages in those areas in a timespan discussed here. Some pre Christ samples of R1a or I2 would help promote that idea. Up until then it sound just like Albanian claiming of term Afrodite as female name Nearday, or Illyr as Freeman but they always fail to notice that it was an exonym :)

    My personal opinion is that this Dardania you're talking about was not even called Dardania. They're located upstream Vardar river (from ancient Macedonian point of view), and king was probably called Vardilys. The real Dardania is where Dardanelles are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    If you want to search for Slavic etymology of these names, then you'd have to prove an existence of Slavic languages in those areas in a timespan discussed here. Some pre Christ samples of R1a or I2 would help promote that idea. Up until then it sound just like Albanian claiming of term Afrodite as female name Nearday, or Illyr as Freeman but they always fail to notice that it was an exonym :)

    My personal opinion is that this Dardania you're talking about was not even called Dardania. They're located upstream Vardar river (from ancient Macedonian point of view), and king was probably called Vardilys. The real Dardania is where Dardanelles are.
    was dardar really vardar?

    Dardanians originally lived in the fertile lands called, in ancient times Moesia. The dardanians where attaked by macedonians, illyrians and Thracians all the time, which is why they ended up in the hill of kosovo and albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    was dardar really vardar?

    Dardanians originally lived in the fertile lands called, in ancient times Moesia. The dardanians where attaked by macedonians, illyrians and Thracians all the time, which is why they ended up in the hill of kosovo and albania.
    Nope. That's just my personal innovation. Skoplje (city on the riverbanks of Vardar) was the capital of Dardania.

    As I recall, Dardanians were never in Albania. Only South Serbia, Kosovo and North Republic of Macedonia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    If you want to search for Slavic etymology of these names, then you'd have to prove an existence of Slavic languages in those areas in a timespan discussed here. Some pre Christ samples of R1a or I2 would help promote that idea. Up until then it sound just like Albanian claiming of term Afrodite as female name Nearday, or Illyr as Freeman but they always fail to notice that it was an exonym :)

    My personal opinion is that this Dardania you're talking about was not even called Dardania. They're located upstream Vardar river (from ancient Macedonian point of view), and king was probably called Vardilys. The real Dardania is where Dardanelles are.
    I agree on that,but in terms on searching IE origin of some words we can use any language that is IE,no one proved Baltic or other presence in Balkans yet they use the same languages on toponymy etc in the region,however in language hypothesis i believe to be truth the said languages were present where they are,you are right on certain names many authors had different things to say and using their imagination,Vardar on ancient Greek was called "Axios" which mean Dark coloured from "Axsaena" Indo-Iranic Avestan-etymology and also called Bardarios in Latin,proposed from Thracian, from PIE *(s)wordo-wori- 'black water',we have "Varna" in Bulgaria on the Black sea too,Proto-Slavic "varn" mean black,the same word we don't use anymore,however i doubt this can be used on the river "Vardar" itself.
    Proposal about Illyrian king Bardylis to be "Vardilys" you gave is interesting in many today Macedonian Slavic dialects the word "Vardi" is present in mean "to keep" to protect,hence in my opinion has same etymology as Proto-Germanic-wardijana and today English word "guard" itself,the same names are recorded in the name "Alexo" Alexandros "to protect" while 'andros" from aner mean man,Alexander protector of people most probably,however here the discussion is the Albanian language so i will no comment other languages anymore,im not very familiar with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Nope. That's just my personal innovation. Skoplje (city on the riverbanks of Vardar) was the capital of Dardania.

    As I recall, Dardanians were never in Albania. Only South Serbia, Kosovo and North Republic of Macedonia.
    Patience! In a medium time Scopje( Shkupi) will be the capital of Ilirida.I will say at most 25 yrs, at best in 15 yrs
    Albs should take it seriously to work for autonomy of Sandzak, which is made of old Illyrian stock

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    2. Heaps I'm looking for, and are needed for a good analysis, but only a handful have I found in publications. This again doesn't disprove a possibility that Albanian could be a hybrid of a Dorian dialect spoken in the remnants of ancient Macedonia in the time of possible arrival of Albanians in 5th-10th century
    I find the ancient Greek borrowings (mostly Doric) as the most intriguing facet of proto-Albanian. Unfortunately, there is not yet any all-embracing research. Some work conducted by Thumb, Jokl, Cabej, Witczak has painstakingly bolstered the fact that (some) proto-Albanian speakers were in contact with Dorians since a very ancient period. Truth be told, it's not clarified at all how these loanwords intruded into Albanian vocabulary. A central region in Balkans is easily precluded for Dorian presence never radiated afield coastal regions. Of some importance is the very fact that Romanian does not share such Doric borrowings, which in turn infers that proto-Albanian coalesced in a different environment from proto-Romanian. The likeliest scenario is that proto-Albanian was not far from Greek colonies of Epirus and southern Illyris. I'd like to analyse one of them:

    The word for millstone μᾶχανᾶ by far is one of the most known loanwords. We can easily discern some conclusions:

    1. Albanian took it from a Doric form μᾶχανᾶ (in juxtaposition with Ionic μῆχανῆ). This make some geographic sense given that Doric colonies were established all over Albanian coast since 8-th century B.C.

    2. Albanian did not receive this loanword from lat. ma:china because had it been so then long latin vowel -a: would have given -a.

    3. The latin cluster -chi- would produce most likely a palatal (q), and its current form would have been *maqën.

    4. The aspirated voiceless stop kʰ (χ) is reflected as "k" because Albanian lost from the very inception aspiration of stops.

    Arousing from the above-mentioned features, we can pretty safely bundle a handful of Greek borrowings which clearly precede 3th century B.C/

    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    But let's stick with the root brent. BTW isn't the name of the Brač derived from the name for a music instrument.
    I'd query that. In Slavic language the cluster /ti̯/ evolved into an affricate /č/: račun < rationem, Parentium > Poreč, Bolentium > Boleč, Bratia > Brač and so on. Therefore, Antun Mayer's claim is feasible, at least in terms of phonetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    but how do you know that there has ever been a *brenta to start with in Albanian.
    when construing the early stage of any language, we don't embark on any written source. Its the other way around. The current word is being analysed, compared into a broader sense and then envisaged its pristine form relying on a set of regular phonetic shifts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    you omit the facts the pinpoint Albanian to the Eastern parts of Balkans.
    I surely do not omit any watertight evidence which would prove the opposite of my claim. I just pointed out how weak and untenable Dacian hypothesis is. I do not rule out that proto-Illyro-Albanian shifted through north-eastern sections of Balkans, but in a IE context, that is the period 2000 BC onwards. If Albanian really coalesced in eastern flanks of Balkans, then it's to be expected to find palpable evidences of its presence; for example ancient Dacian place-names (or Mysian - as a softened version of Dacian hypothesis) were simply lost or not transmitted through Albanian. Conversely, ancient toponymes in modern Albania account for a relatively unbroken persistence. The name of Pirustae (an Illyrian tribe who used to live in northern Albania) is preserved as Prushi (Qafa e Prushit). When tackling with attested forms Πιροῦσται/Πειροῦσται, it becomes glaringly obvious that Albanian-speakers were single-handedly responsible for maintaining this toponym: diphtong /ou/ has been simplified to /u/, whilst the consonant cluster /st/ got assimilated in /sh/; cf. lat. testa > teshë.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    unless Albanians themselves stop using science as a tool for political purpose in Enver Hoxha style.
    Oh you can't relegate the question of Illyrian ancestry of Albanian language by introducing some titillating conspiracy stories involving even Enver Hoxha. The fact is that Illyrian hypothesis has long before Hoxha broached: its main proponents were non-Albanian linguists. Even nowadays, Illyrian hypothesis is well-received among scholars handling with Albanian; they endorse this hypothesis because they find as the most convincing among other conjectures. Even, Eric Hamp endorses (of course with a commendable caution) Illyrian option. Hamp is beyond any doubt one of the most renowned living Indo-Europanists. Albanian falls among his major interest for he has authored dozens of articles relating certain facets of Albanian phonology and morphology. Either way, Eric Hamp’s main advantage is that he intertwined his keen knowledge with direct contacts with Albanian-speakers of rare dialects (like that of arbëresh on Southern Italy). In his early writings, Hamp opted strongly for Illyrian origin of Albanian emphasizing some common elements. Truth be told, in the ensuing years he became more and more suspicious concerning Illyrian and viewed it as a “slippery entity”. His recent idea has Albanian as a sole survivor of a language which once was spoken from the Carpathian mountains all the way to Albania. Then again, professor Hamp is too circumspect to ascribe the antecedent of Albanian whether as Dacian or Illyrian as long as both of them are fairly obscure languages. I did have the good fortune to hear an impressive lecture of Hamp during a conference held in Tirana on December 2008. Despite his age, Hamp with his unparalleled wit analyzed in a thorough insightful manner two ostensibly Latin words, which according to him, were borrowed by Illyrian. He stated that the specific development of these two words in Albanian (thikë, thupën respectively) makes it likely they were introduced by ancestors of Albanians on Latin. Moreover, in a couple of interviews on this occasion, Hamp clung on Illyrian thesis as the most likely one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    If you believe that Byzantines were so attentive, and that they really had noticed every small tribe in the area, then you also must believe that there were no Albanians there before Byzantines first mentioned them.
    The period spanning from Slavic invasion until 11th century, is a complete twilight when it comes to historical sources. Albanians, at that time were Byzantine subjects who sunk to oblivion by retreating deep into mountainous fastness. As long as they recognized Byzantine ascendancy, there was no need to describe them as a distinct entity. If you stumble upon Byzantine chroniclers before 10-11 century, there is no mention at all for other ethno-linguistic groups within Empire. From the imperial perspective, all inhabitants were Romei as long as they were loyal citizens of Constantinople, recognizing its authority and sharing its religion. But when its rule went into gradual dissolution, certain political entities popped out, so the Byzantines were compelled to deal with them. Once Albanians uplifted from their oblivion, by establishing their nearly-independent entity around Arbanon and carried out a policy of their own, then Byzantines felt the need to describe them as a distinct group, yet very intimate with Byzantines. At this period, Byzantines threw their spotlight in their western dominions because new powers were quickly changing the political environment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Where did you get that it was densely urbanized? For all we know plague and wars demolished Balkans in medieval times to the point that Byzantine emperor was almost begging barbarians to come here to have some subjetcs to pay taxes.
    The key factor of salvation of the old Illyrian and Roman preeminence in western Balkans was Justinian's fortress building program, which sheltered the population during Avar and Slavic raids. As Florin Curta holds, from the later sixth century, the western Balkans seem to have experienced a much earlier phase of the transformation of the settlement pattern known as incastellamento. This explains why in both Romanian (the language of Romanized natives) and Albanian (the lightly or less tainted Romanized languages of the natives), the term in use for fort (cetate and qytet, respectively) derives from the Latin word for city (civitas). Another hint for the continuous presence of Albanians in western sections of Balkans is the preservation of Lat. imperator 'emperor' as alb. mbret and rum. imparat, which explains the continued existence in Byzantium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    There wouldn't have to be a large migration, and we know that number of Albanians wasn't that large even in the 16th century
    It does not require lot of imagination to conceive that a small community could never supersede a whole population, let alone to wholly assimilate it. When Avars with Slavic infantry besieged Naissus and other Roman cities, extant sources were full of detailed reports how local population withstood against them or fled in southern areas (like Thessaloniki). No clashes whatsoever are recorded on these parts of Balkans; archaeological excavations reveal the persistence of urban and rural settlements, though restricted in their extension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Why such hard gymnastics to put together incompatible?
    You're bigger fool than I thought. Can anyone tell me one good reason why should I waste my precious time dealing with a nuisance who barely can string together two words into anything remotely resembling English? Why do all stupid people have such a self-assured convictions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Even Swedish word brinde is much more appropriate than Albanian (dre).
    I've never seen you to dissect any argument in a logical fashion, just putting together some words into your woeful English without being put through in any sort of mental filter. You go off-tangent all the time, holy smoke, you're that type of person that goes through an entire book and comes away learning nothing from it, just some more head scratching. Alb. dre (definite dreni) is a different word, stemming from a different root (<*dhron-), but the Albanian cognate ,brin' with the attested Illyrian forms is compelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Illyrian, Messapian etc. are CENTUM languages, CENTUM languages are mostly western branches,
    You know next to nothing, you obtuse simpleton. The moment you come to recognize your sheer ignorance, you'd commit suicide if you got any notion of honor. I don't even acknowledge you in here, most people ignore you and other just ridicule you to the point of indignity. The claim that Illyrian was a centum-type languages rests on some erroneous etymologies and the seemingly unfounded claim of Illyrian being of Veneti. The evidences exemplifying satem-like developments outweighs those 'centum'. Closed case!

    In Russu's opinion, the historical phonetics of the Albanian language as a satem type could be in accordance with the Illyrian as well as the Thracian [which are] both the same type, satem.
    You're so fond of Romanian scholars, so be enough courteous as to admit their assertions.
    Last edited by Abeis; 15-12-15 at 01:50.

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