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Thread: Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Patience! In a medium time Scopje( Shkupi) will be the capital of Ilirida.I will say at most 25 yrs, at best in 15 yrs
    Albs should take it seriously to work for autonomy of Sandzak, which is made of old Illyrian stock
    Your post has absolutely nothing to do with Illyrian or Albanian linguistics, or the prior conversation and should be deleted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    I find the ancient Greek borrowings (mostly Doric) as the most intriguing facet of proto-Albanian. Unfortunately, there is not yet any all-embracing research. Some work conducted by Thumb, Jokl, Cabej, Witczak has painstakingly bolstered the fact that (some) proto-Albanian speakers were in contact with Dorians since a very ancient period. Truth be told, it's not clarified at all how these loanwords intruded into Albanian vocabulary. A central region in Balkans is easily precluded for Dorian presence never radiated afield coastal regions. Of some importance is the very fact that Romanian does not share such Doric borrowings, which in turn infers that proto-Albanian coalesced in a different environment from proto-Romanian. The likeliest scenario is that proto-Albanian was not far from Greek colonies of Epirus and southern Illyris. I'd like to analyse one of them:

    The word for millstone μᾶχανᾶ by far is one of the most known loanwords. We can easily discern some conclusions:

    1. Albanian took it from a Doric form μᾶχανᾶ (in juxtaposition with Ionic μῆχανῆ). This make some geographic sense given that Doric colonies were established all over Albanian coast since 8-th century B.C.

    2. Albanian did not receive this loanword from lat. ma:china because had it been so then long latin vowel -a: would have given -a.

    3. The latin cluster -chi- would produce most likely a palatal (q), and its current form would have been *maqën.

    4. The aspirated voiceless stop kʰ (χ) is reflected as "k" because Albanian lost from the very inception aspiration of stops.

    Arousing from the above-mentioned features, we can pretty safely bundle a handful of Greek borrowings which clearly precede 3th century B.C/



    I'd query that. In Slavic language the cluster /ti̯/ evolved into an affricate /č/: račun < rationem, Parentium > Poreč, Bolentium > Boleč, Bratia > Brač and so on. Therefore, Antun Mayer's claim is feasible, at least in terms of phonetics.



    when construing the early stage of any language, we don't embark on any written source. Its the other way around. The current word is being analysed, compared into a broader sense and then envisaged its pristine form relying on a set of regular phonetic shifts.



    I surely do not omit any watertight evidence which would prove the opposite of my claim. I just pointed out how weak and untenable Dacian hypothesis is. I do not rule out that proto-Illyro-Albanian shifted through north-eastern sections of Balkans, but in a IE context, that is the period 2000 BC onwards. If Albanian really coalesced in eastern flanks of Balkans, then it's to be expected to find palpable evidences of its presence; for example ancient Dacian place-names (or Mysian - as a softened version of Dacian hypothesis) were simply lost or not transmitted through Albanian. Conversely, ancient toponymes in modern Albania account for a relatively unbroken persistence. The name of Pirustae (an Illyrian tribe who used to live in northern Albania) is preserved as Prushi (Qafa e Prushit). When tackling with attested forms Πιροῦσται/Πειροῦσται, it becomes glaringly obvious that Albanian-speakers were single-handedly responsible for maintaining this toponym: diphtong /ou/ has been simplified to /u/, whilst the consonant cluster /st/ got assimilated in /sh/; cf. lat. testa > teshë.



    Oh you can't relegate the question of Illyrian ancestry of Albanian language by introducing some titillating conspiracy stories involving even Enver Hoxha. The fact is that Illyrian hypothesis has long before Hoxha broached: its main proponents were non-Albanian linguists. Even nowadays, Illyrian hypothesis is well-received among scholars handling with Albanian; they endorse this hypothesis because they find as the most convincing among other conjectures. Even, Eric Hamp endorses (of course with a commendable caution) Illyrian option. Hamp is beyond any doubt one of the most renowned living Indo-Europanists. Albanian falls among his major interest for he has authored dozens of articles relating certain facets of Albanian phonology and morphology. Either way, Eric Hamp’s main advantage is that he intertwined his keen knowledge with direct contacts with Albanian-speakers of rare dialects (like that of arbëresh on Southern Italy). In his early writings, Hamp opted strongly for Illyrian origin of Albanian emphasizing some common elements. Truth be told, in the ensuing years he became more and more suspicious concerning Illyrian and viewed it as a “slippery entity”. His recent idea has Albanian as a sole survivor of a language which once was spoken from the Carpathian mountains all the way to Albania. Then again, professor Hamp is too circumspect to ascribe the antecedent of Albanian whether as Dacian or Illyrian as long as both of them are fairly obscure languages. I did have the good fortune to hear an impressive lecture of Hamp during a conference held in Tirana on December 2008. Despite his age, Hamp with his unparalleled wit analyzed in a thorough insightful manner two ostensibly Latin words, which according to him, were borrowed by Illyrian. He stated that the specific development of these two words in Albanian (thikë, thupën respectively) makes it likely they were introduced by ancestors of Albanians on Latin. Moreover, in a couple of interviews on this occasion, Hamp clung on Illyrian thesis as the most likely one.



    The period spanning from Slavic invasion until 11th century, is a complete twilight when it comes to historical sources. Albanians, at that time were Byzantine subjects who sunk to oblivion by retreating deep into mountainous fastness. As long as they recognized Byzantine ascendancy, there was no need to describe them as a distinct entity. If you stumble upon Byzantine chroniclers before 10-11 century, there is no mention at all for other ethno-linguistic groups within Empire. From the imperial perspective, all inhabitants were Romei as long as they were loyal citizens of Constantinople, recognizing its authority and sharing its religion. But when its rule went into gradual dissolution, certain political entities popped out, so the Byzantines were compelled to deal with them. Once Albanians uplifted from their oblivion, by establishing their nearly-independent entity around Arbanon and carried out a policy of their own, then Byzantines felt the need to describe them as a distinct group, yet very intimate with Byzantines. At this period, Byzantines threw their spotlight in their western dominions because new powers were quickly changing the political environment.




    The key factor of salvation of the old Illyrian and Roman preeminence in western Balkans was Justinian's fortress building program, which sheltered the population during Avar and Slavic raids. As Florin Curta holds, from the later sixth century, the western Balkans seem to have experienced a much earlier phase of the transformation of the settlement pattern known as incastellamento. This explains why in both Romanian (the language of Romanized natives) and Albanian (the lightly or less tainted Romanized languages of the natives), the term in use for fort (cetate and qytet, respectively) derives from the Latin word for city (civitas). Another hint for the continuous presence of Albanians in western sections of Balkans is the preservation of Lat. imperator 'emperor' as alb. mbret and rum. imparat, which explains the continued existence in Byzantium.



    It does not require lot of imagination to conceive that a small community could never supersede a whole population, let alone to wholly assimilate it. When Avars with Slavic infantry besieged Naissus and other Roman cities, extant sources were full of detailed reports how local population withstood against them or fled in southern areas (like Thessaloniki). No clashes whatsoever are recorded on these parts of Balkans; archaeological excavations reveal the persistence of urban and rural settlements, though restricted in their extension.



    You're bigger fool than I thought. Can anyone tell me one good reason why should I waste my precious time dealing with a nuisance who barely can string together two words into anything remotely resembling English? Why do all stupid people have such a self-assured convictions?



    I've never seen you to dissect any argument in a logical fashion, just putting together some words into your woeful English without being put through in any sort of mental filter. You go off-tangent all the time, holy smoke, you're that type of person that goes through an entire book and comes away learning nothing from it, just some more head scratching. Alb. dre (definite dreni) is a different word, stemming from a different root (<*dhron-), but the Albanian cognate ,brin' with the attested Illyrian forms is compelling.



    You know next to nothing, you obtuse simpleton. The moment you come to recognize your sheer ignorance, you'd commit suicide if you got any notion of honor. I don't even acknowledge you in here, most people ignore you and other just ridicule you to the point of indignity. The claim that Illyrian was a centum-type languages rests on some erroneous etymologies and the seemingly unfounded claim of Illyrian being of Veneti. The evidences exemplifying satem-like developments outweighs those 'centum'. Closed case!



    You're so fond of Romanian scholars, so be enough courteous as to admit their assertions.
    Your post is mix of lingustics and history,you quote Slavic invasion and migration then you quote Florin Curta who does not support any Slavic migration but he call to all historians to retreat from that perceptions and he is not linguist,further more saying that Albanians were Byzantine subjects you must not know the history of that period,Byzantines had no control even in Peloponese for 217 years except some coastal cities with rise of Charlemagne they begin to recover,the word "thike" you stated knife in Albanian you want to connect with the Illyrian-Sicca,but Sicca is coming from IE-root "sek"- to cut,common in Slavic and Latin,but not Albanian like Slavic "sekyra" and Latin "securis" meaning axe,further you say Albanians in western sections of Balkans is the preservation of Lat. imperator 'emperor' as alb. mbret and rum. imparat, which explains the continued existence in Byzantium,the Slavonic word "Tsar" for emperor come from Cesar we don't claim being in Cesar time overthere for that,my question is historical first where would be the Albanians here,situation was like this for quite some time where were they until 11th century first mention? while i agree that there is no recorded migration from north or anything except the claim of one Byzantine historian that Albanians came during Norman-Byzantine wars 11th century in the land they are now from Italy somwhere.
    Last edited by Milan; 16-12-15 at 11:06.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Your post is mix of lingustics and history,you quote Slavic invasion and migration then you quote Florin Curta who does not support any Slavic migration but he call to all historians to retreat from that perceptions and he is not linguist
    I went a little-off from the main theme partly because I was compelled to reply numerous comments. I know pretty well Curta's position in regards with Slavic migration issue. I just cited the part where he touched the question of urbanization in the western parts of Byzantium. He opined that urban settlements were reduced to a small extent, nonetheless, they continued to exist during all the time, so the Slavic inroads caused no distraction at all. While I admire Curta's wit in scrutinizing medieval texts relating Slavs, I oppose vehemently his modernist approaches about ethnic identity in Middle Ages. He holds that Slavic identity was construed merely on perceptions rather than 'biological' factors. This whole thing seems far too fishy to me. I just don't subscribe much to the modernist approaches regarding ethnic identities in early medieval Europe. It would be unwarranted to pain the formation of all ethnic identities with one brush. I have some quibbles on the instrumentalist view which is unreasonably oversimplified. Such hypothesis fails to acknowledge the fact that ''shared interests'' (common myths) in all probability, are not perceived equally by the members of group. Thus I am inclined to adhere the common-held view, according to which ethnic groups are rather steady actors on the history as individuals do in fact stubbornly continue to unite with those with whom they have ties of ethnic sameness despite such alliance might run contrary to the patterns of certain social groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    the word "thike" you stated knife in Albanian you want to connect with the Illyrian-Sicca,but Sicca is coming from IE-root "sek"- to cut,common in Slavic and Latin,English saga but not Albanian like Slavic "sekyra" and Latin "securis" meaning axe
    I cited Hamp's view on this matter, so I'm not going to derail once again from the main point of the thread. In case you don't know, according to the phonetic patterns governing Albanian, the initial voiceless dental fricative /th/ is a regular outcome of a previous /*s/ in prevocalic position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    the Slavonic word "Tsar" for emperor come from Cesar we don't claim being in Cesar time overthere for that
    With the important difference that Slavs acquired this term through the ecclesiastical literature, not because of their permanent existence within Byzantium. It should not go without mention the fact that Byzantium rule over Slavs lasted 200-300 years, while Albanians, Vlachs and Byzantine-Greek speakings from Hellas proper were more embodied with Byzantine political life which is why administrative terms paved their way to Albanian vocabulary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    except the claim of one Byzantine historian that Albanians came during Norman-Byzantine wars 11th century in the land they are now from Italy somwhere.
    Would you mind in seeing the full passage of Attaliates? I am not sure whether it does works in favour of your interpretation...

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    Well, this is all from me for now. I've written a very long post, but the forum ensured to log me out and not to auto-save the content.
    Maybe one of these days ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    We read about this more time.

    (after that and DNA evidence has confirmed his conclusions).
    How so, and do you mind showing us how DNA has confirmed such conclusion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    He argues that Albanian is Satem and Illyrian is Centum and nobody cannot find continuity between them, these two languages are mutualy exclusive.
    There is an idea and possibility that Illyrian might have not been one language or not even the same group of languages, and we're exploiting on that.

    John Wilkes completely crashed Illyrian Albanian myth, he led research in Yugoslavia and Albania and basis on sceletal evidence he concluded that Albanians have no links with Illyrians
    (after that and DNA evidence has confirmed his conclusions).
    They don't have to be genetically related. If geography was just a bit different, whole Albania would be assimilated 10 centuries ago, and they would probably speak Bulgarian today. That doesn't mean they would be more blood related to Russians and other Slavs than they are now.

    One thing we have is that if Illyrians did come from the North, current Albanian Y-DNA groups don't reflect what we know about central European genetic composition of that time. Albanians were obviously a very small group of people, and might have very easily been assimilated by Illyrians. If it's true they were there before Hellenes, then there's a reasonable chance they spoke pre-IE language, and that their current language was imposed by Illyrian (or Thracian, or whichever) majority. I'm simply dazzled that Albanian scientists are not already shoveling ancient skeletons trying to write off such a strong argument for genetic discontinuity with Illyrians, but are losing time writing same things over and again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    I went a little-off from the main theme partly because I was compelled to reply numerous comments. I know pretty well Curta's position in regards with Slavic migration issue. I just cited the part where he touched the question of urbanization in the western parts of Byzantium. He opined that urban settlements were reduced to a small extent, nonetheless, they continued to exist during all the time, so the Slavic inroads caused no distraction at all. While I admire Curta's wit in scrutinizing medieval texts relating Slavs, I oppose vehemently his modernist approaches about ethnic identity in Middle Ages. He holds that Slavic identity was construed merely on perceptions rather than 'biological' factors. This whole thing seems far too fishy to me. I just don't subscribe much to the modernist approaches regarding ethnic identities in early medieval Europe. It would be unwarranted to pain the formation of all ethnic identities with one brush. I have some quibbles on the instrumentalist view which is unreasonably oversimplified. Such hypothesis fails to acknowledge the fact that ''shared interests'' (common myths) in all probability, are not perceived equally by the members of group. Thus I am inclined to adhere the common-held view, according to which ethnic groups are rather steady actors on the history as individuals do in fact stubbornly continue to unite with those with whom they have ties of ethnic sameness despite such alliance might run contrary to the patterns of certain social groups.



    I cited Hamp's view on this matter, so I'm not going to derail once again from the main point of the thread. In case you don't know, according to the phonetic patterns governing Albanian, the initial voiceless dental fricative /th/ is a regular outcome of a previous /*s/ in prevocalic position.



    With the important difference that Slavs acquired this term through the ecclesiastical literature, not because of their permanent existence within Byzantium. It should not go without mention the fact that Byzantium rule over Slavs lasted 200-300 years, while Albanians, Vlachs and Byzantine-Greek speakings from Hellas proper were more embodied with Byzantine political life which is why administrative terms paved their way to Albanian vocabulary.



    Would you mind in seeing the full passage of Attaliates? I am not sure whether it does works in favour of your interpretation...
    I guess you pull out certain quotes over peoples research that favor your own perceptions however that doesn't make truth but coming as wishful thinking,then again you try to make difference between the Slavs and all other ethnic groups living in Balkans,in your view the Slavs were unwanted body here well i do agree that to the Byzantines those that were called Sclavines by them were viewed as the biggest threat,their political enemies but that is regarding Byzantine political life which inside of it was made of people of different ethnic backround who happened to agree with their politics and viewed themselves as Romanoi,you speak about "modernist" approach to one ethnic identity in Europe but you construct you own perceptions on ethnic identity in Medieval Europe by saying that -It should not go without mention the fact that Byzantium rule over Slavs lasted 200-300 years, while Albanians, Vlachs and Byzantine-Greek speakings from Hellas proper were more embodied with Byzantine political life which is why administrative terms paved their way to Albanian vocabulary" the Vlachs incorportated very early in the Slavic polities using the same alphabet and language regarding church and political life,same goes for many Albanians i guess so when they start to appear in historical sources,your view on ethnicity and nations is the 19th century and the one you personaly hold but not the Medieval,the Byzantines never ruled 200-300 years over "Slavs" there was Bulgarian empire,Serbian etc,the thing that Basil the Macedonian (which ironicaly his ethnicity is either Armenian or Slavic) won over Tsar Samuil incorporating some regions in Byzantine empire which including present Albania,large parts of Greece,Macedonia etc but it was for 100-150 years and with pause due to rebelions within and there wasn't any special treatment to your imagined ethnicities,moreover Slavic people used their language,alphabet in churches and political life yet.

    That is the only passage regarding Albanian origin all others coming from modern times.
    Laonikos Chalkokondyles also in regarding Attaliates passage(c. 1423–1490) saw the Albanians deflected to Byzantines from the "Latins"and hailed from Southern Italy,we can not in anyway believe only theories that suit us,but if we try to be politicaly correct you should do the same.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    You will see, nobody from Albanian will not comment facts which give Joseph, Costanzo and Slocum.

    But they try to discredit who mention these authors, but such way of discreditation is immature.

    About respecting other people's opinions and the culture of dialogue, there are no words.

    And they will put linguists who lived before 200-300 years.

    Because connection between Illyrian and Albanian is empty talk.

    Except for Enver Hoxha way of thinking.

    But Slavic (mostly Serbian) contributed to Albanian with about 1000 words.

    Albanian borrowed from Slavic (mostly Serbian) mainly nouns, then verbs.

    Svane (1992),
    some words which Albanian borrowed from Slavic (Serbian, Bulgarian):

    plow: plug (Serbian) - pllug (Albanian)

    tool, implements: oruđe (Serb.) - orendi (Alb.)

    cucumber: krastavac (Serb.) - kastravec (Alb.)

    donkey: magarac (Serb.), магаре (Bulgarian) - magare (Alb.)

    hill: breg (Serb.) - breg (Alb.)

    bone: kost (Serb.) - kockë (Alb.)

    teen, need: nevolja (Serb.) - nevojë (Alb.)

    rich: bogat (Serb.), begat (Alb.)

    order: poručiti (Serb.) поръчвам (Bulg.) - porosit (Alb.)

    ...

    There are sources which claim that when Albanians came to todays Albania (between 5-10 century, probably 8-9 century), there were Greeks, Armanji (Aromunians), Serbs and maybe Bulgarians. And it is clear that Albanian was able to borrow Slavic (Serbian and Bulgarian) words. Of course Slavic words Albanian could borrow earlier, in Romania, Ukraine, Moldavia. And why not, Slavic languages could borrow from Albanian. Albanian and Slavic languages have long mingled in various areas.
    My friend if you belive albanians came later than the arival of serbians then you are crazy/Thier is no migration pattern of the albanian people.All languages has borrowed including slav.bulgarian.albanian,greek,etc no language is pure.We did borrow some old church slav,an we borrowed from ottoman as did all language above,BUT their is much we didnt borrow.An their is some words that can only come from proto balkan.such as couple words,mal i zi.dardh,, old name for macedonia emathia the proto word for emathia is samadh,Albanian word emadh an so much more we borrowed from the place we are from,http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/natlang/ie/alb.html If you open the link you will find some very old proto alb tosk,gheg,etc..If you open the link you will find some very old proto alb tosk,gheg,etc..Mostly borrowed from old greek an latin both borrowing from much early than of 11ctry an much early than of the slavnic language.I dont belive i2a2 is a illyrian genetic maker it is more seen in eastern europe I belive i2 came with the migration of the slavnics from behinde the carpathian mountains
    Last edited by ukaj; 16-12-15 at 08:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    much appreciated

    But when all is said, the Illyrian-Bosnians have the bulk of I2 dna which is over 5000 years older than the bulk of Illyrian-Albanian E ydna

    The simple conclusion is the If illyrians are in all of what is Roman Illyricium, then the only clear cut marker is I2 ..........

    And Slavs are neither Illyrians if this is your concern
    Hear is something that states the i2 read please The second great expansion of I2a-Din took place with the Slavic migration in the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages. I2a-Din had started to mix with Proto-Indo-Euroepan R1a around Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland during the Corded Ware period (2900-2400 BCE), then disseminated more uniformly across Proto-Slavic tribes during the Bronze and Iron Ages. After Germanic tribes living in eastern Germany and Poland, like the Goths, the Vandals and the Burgundians, invaded the Roman Empire, the Slavs from further east filled the vacuum. Following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476, the Slavs moved in the Dinaric Alps and the Balkans. By the 9th century the Slavs occupied all modern Slavic-speaking territories, apart from the eastern Balkans under the control of the Turkic-speaking Bulgars.i truly belive i2 is not illyrian no way.I2 is more eastern european.

    Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations. The relatively high percentage of of I2a-L621 in non-Slavic people like the Hungarians (15% ), Albanians (12%) and Greeks (9%) dates from the Bronze Age and population movement inside the Roman Empire which redistributed I2a beyond the original Daco-Thracian and Illyrian territories. Based on these frequencies, and the distribution of R1a subclades, it can be assessed that the Daco-Thracians and Illyrians carried approximately two to three times more I2a-Din than R1a, while the Early Slavs must have had roughly twice more R1a than I2a-Din. The higher proportion of R1a in many northern Slavic countries today is due to earlier migrations of R1a during Bronze Age (such as L260 among West Slavs and Z92 and Z93 among Russians and Belarussians).This can be thrown strait out.This needs to be rewitten hear is why.https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...-age-bulgaria/ E1b1b-CTS10679/PF1875/M5048
    E1b1b1-V68-M78-Z1919-V1083/CTS202/Z825. E-V13 did not come from anywhere but the Balkans. Its immediate ancestors are Mesolithic Balkanic.http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2010/03/...pulations.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    I dont belive i2a2 is a illyrian genetic maker it is more seen in eastern europe I belive i2 came with the migration of the slavnics from behinde the caucasus mountains
    Which side of the Caucasus do you refer to as the backside?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post

    That is the only passage regarding Albanian origin all others coming from modern times.
    Laonikos Chalkokondyles also in regarding Attaliates passage(c. 1423–1490) saw the Albanians deflected to Byzantines from the "Latins"and hailed from Southern Italy,we can not in anyway believe only theories that suit us,but if we try to be politicaly correct you should do the same.
    I am still trying to figure out what's your point? I am wondering how you manage to interpret Chalkokondyles in a badly truncated way. I don't know if you're familiar with his work, but Chalkokondyles takes no position in regards with Albanian origin. He is unable to define where did Albanians sprung from, so he finds appropriate to cite all knowledge that was available at his time. He goes on to say that Albanians were living at Japygia (that is the southern Italy), while other Albanians started out from Dyrachium outskirts, wielding political powers and extending their ascendancy over adjacent regions. The question is to determine how came that Albanians prevailed on southern Italy? I do believe, as Attaliates suggests, that those Albanians were settled out there as Byzantine soldiers. Here is what Laonikos actually stated:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    I am still trying to figure out what's your point? I am wondering how you manage to interpret Chalkokondyles in a badly truncated way. I don't know if you're familiar with his work, but Chalkokondyles takes no position in regards with Albanian origin. He is unable to define where did Albanians sprung from, so he finds appropriate to cite all knowledge that was available at his time. He goes on to say that Albanians were living at Japygia (that is the southern Italy), while other Albanians started out from Dyrachium outskirts, wielding political powers and extending their ascendancy over adjacent regions. The question is to determine how came that Albanians prevailed on southern Italy? I do believe, as Attaliates suggests, that those Albanians were settled out there as Byzantine soldiers. Here is what Laonikos actually stated:
    Michael Attaleiates was a Byzantine lawyer and historian who rose to high office under the emperors Romanus IV (r. 1067-1071) and Michael VII (r. 1071-1078). His 'History', covering the years 1034-1079, is a largely eyewitnessed account of political and military events in the Byzantine Empire. It was during this period that the Byzantine Greeks first took note of the Albanians as a people.

    When the Emperor Michael who passed away in piety and whose home is known to have been the province of Paphlagonia, took up the sceptre of the Byzantine Empire, the Agarene people in Sicily in the West were defeated by Byzantine naval and land forces.

    And had not the well-known George Maniakes, who had been entrusted with the general command, been eliminated on the slanderous accusation that he was hungry for power, and had not the military command of the war been transferred to others, that large and renowned island, blessed with large cities knowing no lack of precious goods, would still be under Byzantine control. Now, however, jealousy has destroyed not only the man and his endeavours, but also that enormous undertaking (3). For when subsequent commanders made base and shameful plans and decisions, not only was the island lost to Byzantium, but also the greater part of the army. Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command against their leaders.
    Constantine IX Monomachos (4) proved to be more benevolent on the imperial throne than his predecessor. He conveyed imperial honours and gifts to almost everyone with ambition, and delighted his subjects. Suddenly storm clouds gathered in the West and threatened him with nothing less than destruction and expulsion from the throne. The aforementioned George with the surname Maniakes, thirsting for blood, began an uprising in the Italian part of the Empire with Byzantine and Albanian soldiers there, being offended because the emperor had shown him a lack of respect and fearing the emperor in view of previous hostilities. He caused great turmoil in the rest of the army opposing him and took it over. After having set up his camp at a two days' march from Thessalonika, he made his attack on the imperial camp in the evening...


    When this had taken place and the usurpers had gradually calmed down, another disaster began to take its course and to spread like a poisonous weed intent on destroying the crops. The danger came from the city of Epidamnus (Durrës). The Protoprohedros Duke Basiliakes, who had been sent there by the emperor, having succeeded in avoiding Bryennius and withdrawing from Adrianopole, took over Durrës and assembled an army there from all the surrounding regions. By soliciting support for his side by means of substantial gifts, he succeeded in having the Franks enter his territory from Italy and attempted to make use of them for his side. By various pretences and means, he collected money from everyone under his order and command, set up a list and used as a pretext for this arms buildup the fact that he intended to attack Bryennius as a renegade. Once he had ensured that he had indeed assembled a large army and forces fit for action, composed of Byzantine Greeks, Bulgarians and Albanians and of his own soldiers, he set off and hastened to Thessalonika...


    I found this about Attiales he clearly say where they were,about Chalkokondyles according to historians he thought that Albanians were originaly from Southern Italy,if it's true they came as Byzantine soldiers from whatever regions.
    it is theory,one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Which side of the Caucasus do you refer to as the backside?
    depends which I2a marker

    Remendello in north italy had all I2a markers, pannonii in neolithic times had I2a markers, clearly there was I2a in Roman Illyrium
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    Hear is something that states the i2 read please The second great expansion of I2a-Din took place with the Slavic migration in the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages. I2a-Din had started to mix with Proto-Indo-Euroepan R1a around Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland during the Corded Ware period (2900-2400 BCE), then disseminated more uniformly across Proto-Slavic tribes during the Bronze and Iron Ages. After Germanic tribes living in eastern Germany and Poland, like the Goths, the Vandals and the Burgundians, invaded the Roman Empire, the Slavs from further east filled the vacuum. Following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476, the Slavs moved in the Dinaric Alps and the Balkans. By the 9th century the Slavs occupied all modern Slavic-speaking territories, apart from the eastern Balkans under the control of the Turkic-speaking Bulgars.i truly belive i2 is not illyrian no way.I2 is more eastern european.

    Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations. The relatively high percentage of of I2a-L621 in non-Slavic people like the Hungarians (15% ), Albanians (12%) and Greeks (9%) dates from the Bronze Age and population movement inside the Roman Empire which redistributed I2a beyond the original Daco-Thracian and Illyrian territories. Based on these frequencies, and the distribution of R1a subclades, it can be assessed that the Daco-Thracians and Illyrians carried approximately two to three times more I2a-Din than R1a, while the Early Slavs must have had roughly twice more R1a than I2a-Din. The higher proportion of R1a in many northern Slavic countries today is due to earlier migrations of R1a during Bronze Age (such as L260 among West Slavs and Z92 and Z93 among Russians and Belarussians).This can be thrown strait out.This needs to be rewitten hear is why.https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...-age-bulgaria/ E1b1b-CTS10679/PF1875/M5048
    E1b1b1-V68-M78-Z1919-V1083/CTS202/Z825. E-V13 did not come from anywhere but the Balkans. Its immediate ancestors are Mesolithic Balkanic.http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2010/03/...pulations.html
    depends which I2a marker

    Remendello in north italy had all I2a markers, pannonii in neolithic times had I2a markers, clearly there was I2a in Roman Illyrium

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    depends which I2a marker

    Remendello in north italy had all I2a markers, pannonii in neolithic times had I2a markers, clearly there was I2a in Roman Illyrium
    I think the Illyrian Marker should be I1. There is about 5% and up in ex Yugoslav republic's and Northern Albania, Kosovo, from this haplotype. Also EV13, J2B, AND G2 are also Illyrian. Illyrians invaded the region about 2000 yrs bc.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Prior to Illyrian invasion we know from Greek Historians of antiquity that present day Albania+Greek occupied Albanian lands in Greece were inhabited by a population called Pellazg. But since Alb language is indo-european its the Illyrians who brought this langauage. As Such Indo-europens were speculated were mainly R1b, R1a, it can't be said that Illyrians were I2a marker. We don't know for sure if the Illyrian territories in Former Yugoslavia were also inhabited by Pellazgs. It could have been another population with high I2a non slavic version of I2a in those territories. So, since Illyria was a product of subjugation of pre Illyrian populations by the Illyrians, we should not expect Haplogoup homogeneity throughout Illyrian lands. Wht made Illyrians, ILLYRIAN was the language and the culture that they had developed, not the uniformity of haplogroups. This stands true for all populations. Germany has huge discrepancies in haplogroups between south and north of the country, and still they are all Germans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Which side of the Caucasus do you refer to as the backside?
    For you, the most beautiful side.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    For you, the most beautiful side.
    Are we to understand that the answer would be different if someone else asked?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    It seems you and Abeis support the same theory, just with a 2.000 years difference of arrival :)
    Parts of Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, even Slovakia, and Poland have Albanian toponyms.

    Yes, even some Albanian scientists say some toponyms are Albanian, there are facts.

    On the other hand in Albania Albanian toponyms are a recent date.

    Here Albanians are using Hungarian sources according them Romanians came from Albania to Romania.

    But no, these Hungarian sources are only due to rivalry between Hungarians and Romanians.

    Key for spreading Illyrian theory among Albanians is the desire of Enver Hoxha to present the Albanians as indigenous.

    However, despite all the attempts of Enver Hoxha and his team have failed, Albanians nothing to do with Illyrians.

    We here saw that some Illyrian words with gymnastics are linked with Albanian words, but no, *bhrentos is Germanic-Messapic isogloss, nothing to do with Albanian.

    And *brenta is not Old Albanian word, it is attested Thracian word meaning deer, if this word exists in Old Albanian it is borrowed.

    For Albanians and science would be much more interesting to investigate the Albanian toponyms in the areas I mentioned.

    We can follow Albanian toponyms along whole Carpathians through parts of Romania, Ukraine, Slovakia, Poland... and eastern from Carpathians in parts of today Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine. Albanians probably were the people of the hills, and it is reason why in Albanian is scarcity of native naval and maritime terms.

    Probably Albanians ruled Carpatians, or large part of these mountains, someone can see this range of Mountains:



    Range of Carpathian Mountains

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Parts of Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, even Slovakia, and Poland have Albanian toponyms.

    Yes, even some Albanian scientists say some toponyms are Albanian, there are facts.

    On the other hand in Albania Albanian toponyms are a recent date.

    Here Albanians are using Hungarian sources according them Romanians came from Albania to Romania.

    But no, these Hungarian sources are only due to rivalry between Hungarians and Romanians.

    Key for spreading Illyrian theory among Albanians is the desire of Enver Hoxha to present the Albanians as indigenous.

    However, despite all the attempts of Enver Hoxha and his team have failed, Albanians nothing to do with Illyrians.

    We here saw that some Illyrian words with gymnastics are linked with Albanian words, but no, *bhrentos is Germanic-Messapic isogloss, nothing to do with Albanian.

    And *brenta is not Old Albanian word, it is attested Thracian word meaning deer, if this word exists in Old Albanian it is borrowed.

    For Albanians and science would be much more interesting to investigate the Albanian toponyms in the areas I mentioned.

    We can follow Albanian toponyms along whole Carpathians through parts of Romania, Ukraine, Slovakia, Poland... and eastern from Carpathians in parts of today Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine. Albanians probably were the people of the hills, and it is reason why in Albanian is scarcity of native naval and maritime terms.

    Probably Albanians ruled Carpatians, or large part of these mountains, someone can see this range of Mountains:



    Range of Carpathian Mountains
    I have a work colleague, an Albanian heritage , who says ( was told by his gfather ) albanians originate as part the Bastanae ( mixed people ) and where part of the 80000 contingent that went from the south Carpathians mountain area to Macedonia to help Philip of Macedon defeat the advancing illyrians from the north .......I think it was about 350BC

    I doubt that..........but the bastanae ....where a bastard people of different races

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    depends which I2a marker

    Remendello in north italy had all I2a markers, pannonii in neolithic times had I2a markers, clearly there was I2a in Roman Illyrium
    I2 is more eastern european without a doubt,And it is a euro marker but more eastern europe.I2a2 not i2 was bought to balkans by the slavnics in the 6thctry it just fits perfect with the migration of slavs.if people think bosnians dont belong to the slavnic family then their crazy.As for roman very much doubt it research was done in southern part of italia this year an has come up positive to eb1 an very little of i2a2, northern part will be done sometime next year.I2a2 is very low in italia.bones tested in bulgaria in a thracian tomb came up possitive with eb1 an no i2.most of the last illyrians an thracians were latinised.I will correct myself the carpathian mountains is where the slavs migrated from.sorry my bad

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Prior to Illyrian invasion we know from Greek Historians of antiquity that present day Albania+Greek occupied Albanian lands in Greece were inhabited by a population called Pellazg. But since Alb language is indo-european its the Illyrians who brought this langauage. As Such Indo-europens were speculated were mainly R1b, R1a, it can't be said that Illyrians were I2a marker. We don't know for sure if the Illyrian territories in Former Yugoslavia were also inhabited by Pellazgs. It could have been another population with high I2a non slavic version of I2a in those territories. So, since Illyria was a product of subjugation of pre Illyrian populations by the Illyrians, we should not expect Haplogoup homogeneity throughout Illyrian lands. Wht made Illyrians, ILLYRIAN was the language and the culture that they had developed, not the uniformity of haplogroups. This stands true for all populations. Germany has huge discrepancies in haplogroups between south and north of the country, and still they are all Germans.
    Albanian language is a indo european language yes but it is only spoken by the albanian people.it is not possiable to rule out eb1 in bBALKANS before the i2a2 migration,It just doesnt happen like that their is no proof that i2a2 is a illyrian genetic marker unless you belive igenea rubbish.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I have a work colleague, an Albanian heritage , who says ( was told by his gfather ) albanians originate as part the Bastanae ( mixed people ) and where part of the 80000 contingent that went from the south Carpathians mountain area to Macedonia to help Philip of Macedon defeat the advancing illyrians from the north .......I think it was about 350BC

    I doubt that..........but the bastanae ....where a bastard people of different races

    An Albanian could never say that. Albanians lack the East Asian haplogroups Q,N which says Albanians never were close to any eastern or wetern Asian area.
    The question is: What about Serbs?
    Abundance of Chinese Q, N, Arab J1 etc... So the person saying that Albs came from Bastanee is in fact a bastard who traveled from present day Mongolia all way to Balkans accumulating Gysy haplogroups on the way of their jurney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    Albanian language is a indo european language yes but it is only spoken by the albanian people.it is not possiable to rule out eb1 in bBALKANS before the i2a2 migration,It just doesnt happen like that their is no proof that i2a2 is a illyrian genetic marker unless you belive igenea rubbish.
    Haplogroup I is an ice age haplo. E1b is an north African haplogroup. Of course I was in Europe long before E arrived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Haplogroup I is an ice age haplo. E1b is an north African haplogroup. Of course I was in Europe long before E arrived.
    ice age?lol i2a2 is a genetic drift it isnt that old...i2 etc yes. an eb1 is proven to be from africa since sample of thracians has a high percent of eb1 but how long ago they came no one knows.an all halopgroups started from e my friend
    ..yet to be proven my friend eb1 is also a drift..

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