Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

There are thinkings that Albanian took some words from Slavic which Slavic borrowed from Illyrian, these thinkings correspodent with with the assumption that Albanians came late in the territory of today's Albania and there were Slavs (fact is that Slavic toponyms are in whole Albania).

If your hypothesis is true, then it is also possible that a small (compared to Slavs) group of Albanians, coming to Balkan in 5-10 century AD, had picked up some Illyrisque terminology from local half-Romanized population, especially high up in the mountains where Albanians claim their origins from, and which were not fully Slavicized for the sake of inhospitality. That makes things even more obscure, because that could also explain the remnants of Dorian and other ancient Greek and Latin morphologic forms, in the mountain refuge which was never fully embraced by the major language standardization trends in the area.
 
I am familiar with the majority of postulates, but I was hoping to find an exact list with examples in Albanian, with pronunciatiohe

Fair enough. You seem a balanced and very reasonable person which tends to delve the question from all sides. I highly appreciate this inquisitive attitude which is far more reasonable than processing with some pre-conceived notions as some Balkanites. I lay special emphasis to the phonetic and morphological features when it comes to pinpoint any eventual affiliation. If two languages have in common a set of certain lexical items, this is not of course to imply, any more than mutual influence. But if two languages display the very same innovations, phonetic shifts and morphological peculiarities, then there is some ground to establish a relatively secure affiliation between them. The following example is quite interesting:

the pristine name of modern Brač island has been Brentista. When Greek colonization commenced in northern Adriatic, the Hellenized name was 'Ελαφοῦσσα (from 'Ελαφος ,deer'). Thus, it seems safe to surmise that Illyrian equivalent might have been *brentos, as Antun Mayer rightly conjectured. Heychius records the gloss as <βρένδον>· ἔλαφον, while a Byzantine manuscript states βρένδον δὲ καλοῦσι τὴν ἔλαφον Μεσάππιοι (Messapi called the deer 'Brendon'). Without taking into account a panoply of cognates which sprung from this very lexem, it should be noted that its root would have been the suffixed full-grade <*bhren-to. Albanian cognate ,bri(n)' (horn) is often drawn into comparison and not unjustly. Both forms kept intact the IE *e (Proto-Albanian *brenta). Messapic examples Βρένδον, Βρινδεῖν etc attest -nt- > -nd-, a phonetic shift which occurs in Albanian as well: when *nt is preceded by *e, it yields as /nd/ as in landë < PAlb. lenta. Having said that, this lexical item provides some interesting clues for both Illyrian and Albanian: the retention of IE *b and *e and the assimilation nt > nd when proceeded by -e. Of course, all this requires serious efforts but it does seem as a good point-of-departure to set out from positive evidences.

n. Some of these things may have a weight, but some of them may be meaningless

Bear in mind that the idea of grouping together Illyrian and Albanian is further bolstered by historical and geographical factors. There is not an iota of evidence to assume that Latinization wiped out completely ancient idioms spoken in western parts of Balkans. As long as Albanian represents a language with a distinct outlook (retaining certain isoglosses with Balto-Slavic group and partly with Germanic one), it does seem correct to assume that its ancient predecessor was spoken into western Balkans, not elsewhere.

FWIW Illyrian is poorly attested and PIE and it's diphthongs even more, and one has to make a very strong point for this to be accepted.

I do believe that Illyrian onomastic is relatively rich due to recent archaeological excavations. We can discern some valuable hints from onomastic, all the more so when IE comparative methodology brings astonishing results.

I would like to see some effort from Albanian linguists' side, trying to convince others how and why these things are important and unique in Albanian language, with abundant set of examples.

I am well aware that we can only sketch some general premises for more insightful inquiries are needed.
 
If your hypothesis is true, then it is also possible that a small (compared to Slavs) group of Albanians, coming to Balkan in 5-10 century AD, had picked up some Illyrisque terminology from local half-Romanized population, especially high up in the mountains where Albanians claim their origins from, and which were not fully Slavicized for the sake of inhospitality. That makes things even more obscure, because that could also explain the remnants of Dorian and other ancient Greek and Latin morphologic forms, in the mountain refuge which was never fully embraced by the major language standardization trends in the area.

Highly improbable methinks. The idea of a massive migration from north-eastern Balkans is utterly untenable. As far as historical sources go, there is not any inkling detailing any population movement which would change drastically the ethnic make-up of Roman-held territories in western flanks of Penninsula. The claim that native communities were profusely Latinized (or Hellenized in south of the so-called Jircek line) makes even more improbable for how could a small tribe from Dacia succeed in subjugation a densely urbanized territory like that of Albania? Any migration would not have gone un-noticed, all the more so when Byzantine chroniclers noticed even small inroads of barbaric tribes. It's almost impossible for a population to sneak out un-noticed through the watchful eyes of Byzantines, let alone to wipe out a population twice of its number. Such a scenario would cause unbridled unrest but this is not the case. Indeed this ill-fated hypothesis was broached by Vladimir Georgiev, who refined the arguments of Weigand (another linguist who pored doubts about Illyrian origin of the Albanians). At first this was a mite startling but soon turned out to be totally unfounded for a myriad of reasons. The Dacian evidence is less clear than that of Illyrian: a large part of it evince no obvious connection with Albanian.

To make a long story short, it's of utmost importance to scrutinize ancient borrowings of Albanian from either Greek or Latin, in order to set out a chronological framework. Albanian has heaps of Doric borrowings which presumably intruded through the vast network of Doric colonies. An analysis upon these loanwords led to the conclusion that most of them took place into Albanian vocabulary before Christ. The same goes for Latin borrowings. This argument provides an additional proof for locating proto-Albanian urheimat somewhere in nearby of north-west Greek dialects, that is the modern territory of Albania.

P.S: The intrusion of proto-Albanian (i.e 'Illyrian' or a language sibling with Messapic) took place into a vaguely time, most likely around 2000 years BC, when IE dialect bearers engulfed Balkans. The primeval homeland of proto-Albanian must located into a territory which was somewhere in-between that of Proto-Balto-Slavic and proto-Iranian. Northern slopes of Carpathian mountains appears to be one of the early cradles of proto-Albanan; with the drift of time, proto-Illyro-Albanian shifted in south through Dacia, moving all the way to western chunks of Balkans; a stream of them went far beyond Balkans: the Messapi-speaking tribes. Whereas Proto-Balto-Slavic shifted farther north and then broke off into two distinct, yet closely related groups. This is why both Albanian, Baltic and Slavic share certain isoglosses (satem-like developments; delabialization of /o/, morphological features, etc, etc). Thus I am prone to subscribe to the hypothesis of H. Mayer who authored numerous articles concerning this vexing question.
 
Fair enough. You seem a balanced and very reasonable person which tends to delve the question from all sides. I highly appreciate this inquisitive attitude which is far more reasonable than processing with some pre-conceived notions as some Balkanites. I lay special emphasis to the phonetic and morphological features when it comes to pinpoint any eventual affiliation. If two languages have in common a set of certain lexical items, this is not of course to imply, any more than mutual influence. But if two languages display the very same innovations, phonetic shifts and morphological peculiarities, then there is some ground to establish a relatively secure affiliation between them. The following example is quite interesting:

the pristine name of modern Brač island has been Brentista. When Greek colonization commenced in northern Adriatic, the Hellenized name was 'Ελαφοῦσσα (from 'Ελαφος ,deer'). Thus, it seems safe to surmise that Illyrian equivalent might have been *brentos, as Antun Mayer rightly conjectured. Heychius records the gloss as <βρένδον>· ἔλαφον, while a Byzantine manuscript states βρένδον δὲ καλοῦσι τὴν ἔλαφον Μεσάππιοι (Messapi called the deer 'Brendon'). Without taking into account a panoply of cognates which sprung from this very lexem, it should be noted that its root would have been the suffixed full-grade <*bhren-to. Albanian cognate ,bri(n)' (horn) is often drawn into comparison and not unjustly. Both forms kept intact the IE *e (Proto-Albanian *brenta). Messapic examples Βρένδον, Βρινδεῖν etc attest -nt- > -nd-, a phonetic shift which occurs in Albanian as well: when *nt is preceded by *e, it yields as /nd/ as in landë < PAlb. lenta. Having said that, this lexical item provides some interesting clues for both Illyrian and Albanian: the retention of IE *b and *e and the assimilation nt > nd when proceeded by -e. Of course, all this requires serious efforts but it does seem as a good point-of-departure to set out from positive evidences.

Why such hard gymnastics to put together incompatible?

So every Indo-European word lighter or heavier can be somehow merged with another word, even NON IE word, even the Bantu and Vietnamese, it is not offend.

Nothing to do with Albanian expect we make gymnastics.

Things are simpler.

*BHRENTOS (*bʰrentos) is Germanic-Messapic issogloss, meaning stag

Even Swedish word brinde is much more appropriate than Albanian (dre).

Illyrian, Messapian etc. are CENTUM languages, CENTUM languages are mostly western branches, always someone first should search similar words or origin of word in CENTUM languages if we speak about Illyrian or Messapian.

Albanian is SATEM as Baltic, Slavic, Dacian, Armenian, Iranian.
 
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If your hypothesis is true, then it is also possible that a small (compared to Slavs) group of Albanians, coming to Balkan in 5-10 century AD, had picked up some Illyrisque terminology from local half-Romanized population, especially high up in the mountains where Albanians claim their origins from, and which were not fully Slavicized for the sake of inhospitality. That makes things even more obscure, because that could also explain the remnants of Dorian and other ancient Greek and Latin morphologic forms, in the mountain refuge which was never fully embraced by the major language standardization trends in the area.

It is theory of Romanian scientists, and not only Romanian.

Historians didn't accurately record because it is not a large group of people.

They (part of them) moved from the area were lived parts of Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, it is possible and parts of Slovakia and Poland, to one part of Albania.

Although in the Internet we can see movement from Romania over Hungary and Serbia to Albania, probably path was Romania-Bulgaria-Macedonia-Albania.

And one of smaller part of Albania, not whole Albania.

Bulgarian scientists with hard evidence proved powerful Slavic presence and huge number of Slavic toponyms in whole Albania , except for a smaller part.

On basis of researches of Bulgarian scientists someone set image where from Free Dacian area Albanians came to part today's Albania somewhere 6-10 century (some people think their number were 50.000-100.000):

iyn809.jpg



Someone will notice that I give data of Western, Romanian, Bulgarian scientists, etc., and Albanian too, not Serbian, and it is true, I have nothing against Serbian sources but it is true I very rarely use Serbian sources.
 
Here is some Illyrian names from the region somewhere Albanians nowaday inhabit;

King Bardilys powerful Illyrian king which subjected Macedon for some time,Albanians trace it to bardhe meaning white.

In Slavic oral poetry Bardylis is called "Bradilo" which will mean "bearded man"
Now Bardyllis you have the today Slavic-Brada meaning beard.
From Proto-Balto-Slavic *bordዋʔ, from Proto-Indo-European *bʰardʰeh₂.Balto-Slavic cognates include Lithuanian barzda, Latvian bārda and Old Prussian bordus.Other Indo-European cognates include Latin barba, Old High German bart, English beard.Try to trace it otherwise?

Audata granddaughter of Bardylis which become wife to Phillip of Macedon,Udata in Slavonic languages mean "married" from dati "to give"

Bircenna was daugther of king Bardyllis which become wife of Pyrhus of Epirus,to my mind come Biser,Biseran meaning pearl,resembling pearls,present day names Bisera is common,i can't find origin of this word or cognates.

Dardanos,Dardanians founder Dardanos,Albanians say is from Dardhe meaning pearl,but Dar and Dan,say Dardan "os" most probably Hellenized suffix, if connect this two i have the first "dar" meaning "gift" in Slavic- second "dan" mean given,which will translate as "given gift".founded well in present day Slavic names both "Dar" and "Dan" names like "Bogdan" from Bog and Dan mean "given by god"
"Bozidar" from Bozi and Dar meaning "gift by god" and so on..

I will like someone comment on this names if their is better explanation of their etymology.
 
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It is theory of Romanian scientists, and not only Romanian.

Historians didn't accurately record because it is not a large group of people.

They (part of them) moved from the area were lived parts of Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, it is possible and parts of Slovakia and Poland, to one part of Albania.

Although in the Internet we can see movement from Romania over Hungary and Serbia to Albania, probably path was Romania-Bulgaria-Macedonia-Albania.

And one of smaller part of Albania, not whole Albania.

Bulgarian scientists with hard evidence proved powerful Slavic presence and huge number of Slavic toponyms in whole Albania , except for a smaller part.

On basis of researches of Bulgarian scientists someone set image where from Free Dacian area Albanians came to part today's Albania somewhere 6-10 century (some people think their number were 50.000-100.000):




Someone will notice that I give data of Western, Romanian, Bulgarian scientists, etc., and Albanian too, not Serbian, and it is true, I have nothing against Serbian sources but it is true I very rarely use Serbian sources.
Genetics agree with this toponymy it is similar the northern Gegs have more E-v13 and J2 while southern Tosks have more I2 and R1a if i am not wrong and more similar with their Slavic neighbors and north Greece,will be interested in the language of Gegs and Tosks which has more exchanged or borrowed words and from which languages?
 
Fair enough. You seem a balanced and very reasonable person which tends to delve the question from all sides. I highly appreciate this inquisitive attitude which is far more reasonable than processing with some pre-conceived notions as some Balkanites. I lay special emphasis to the phonetic and morphological features when it comes to pinpoint any eventual affiliation. If two languages have in common a set of certain lexical items, this is not of course to imply, any more than mutual influence. But if two languages display the very same innovations, phonetic shifts and morphological peculiarities, then there is some ground to establish a relatively secure affiliation between them. The following example is quite interesting:
Agree.

the pristine name of modern Brač island has been Brentista. When Greek colonization commenced in northern Adriatic, the Hellenized name was 'Ελαφοῦσσα (from 'Ελαφος ,deer'). Thus, it seems safe to surmise that Illyrian equivalent might have been *brentos, as Antun Mayer rightly conjectured.
I personally dislike all forms containing suffixes -os, -is and -us because they smell of Latinization or Hellenisation. Unless Illyrian was closely related to Greek, I find proposed form *brentos not much possible. But let's stick with the root brent. BTW isn't the name of the Brač derived from the name for a music instrument. Italians call it braccio, and it would be indicative that it is derived from Italian, but I've found somewhere on the web that Czech also call it bratsche.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/brač
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamburica
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bratsche


Heychius records the gloss as <βρένδον>· ἔλαφον, while a Byzantine manuscript states βρένδον δὲ καλοῦσι τὴν ἔλαφον Μεσάππιοι (Messapi called the deer 'Brendon'). Without taking into account a panoply of cognates which sprung from this very lexem, it should be noted that its root would have been the suffixed full-grade <*bhren-to. Albanian cognate ,bri(n)' (horn) is often drawn into comparison and not unjustly. Both forms kept intact the IE *e (Proto-Albanian *brenta). Messapic examples Βρένδον, Βρινδεῖν etc attest -nt- > -nd-, a phonetic shift which occurs in Albanian as well: when *nt is preceded by *e, it yields as /nd/ as in landë < PAlb. lenta. Having said that, this lexical item provides some interesting clues for both Illyrian and Albanian: the retention of IE *b and *e and the assimilation nt > nd when proceeded by -e. Of course, all this requires serious efforts but it does seem as a good point-of-departure to set out from positive evidences.

Ok, but how do you know that there has ever been a *brenta to start with in Albanian. Sorry but I'm totally unfamiliar with Albanian, all that comes to my mind is that we'd have to have something like a small set of irregular forms that didn't went through nt>nd in Albanian to confirm that the language evolved differently compared to the neighbouring ones.



Bear in mind that the idea of grouping together Illyrian and Albanian is further bolstered by historical and geographical factors. There is not an iota of evidence to assume that Latinization wiped out completely ancient idioms spoken in western parts of Balkans. As long as Albanian represents a language with a distinct outlook (retaining certain isoglosses with Balto-Slavic group and partly with Germanic one), it does seem correct to assume that its ancient predecessor was spoken into western Balkans, not elsewhere.
Now you omit the facts the pinpoint Albanian to the Eastern parts of Balkans. If we want to reconcile all the facts, but with the current knowledge, we'd have to say that it is a hybrid language.

I do believe that Illyrian onomastic is relatively rich due to recent archaeological excavations. We can discern some valuable hints from onomastic, all the more so when IE comparative methodology brings astonishing results.

I am well aware that we can only sketch some general premises for more insightful inquiries are needed.

And I also hope that new research will give some interesting results, but I just don't feel we'll reach a breakthrough, unless Albanians themselves stop using science as a tool for political purpose in Enver Hoxha style. Their language is very odd and practically useless for Western kids, who therefore don't tend to study it. It seems that we currently have all our hopes on Albanians, but it's a far cry, when even their PhD's still in year 2015 repeat like parrots things like this:

albanian-illyrian.jpg

But if one is already convinced in this, off course (s)he will not be doing any constructive research on the subject.




Highly improbable methinks. The idea of a massive migration from north-eastern Balkans is utterly untenable. As far as historical sources go, there is not any inkling detailing any population movement which would change drastically the ethnic make-up of Roman-held territories in western flanks of Penninsula.
I would not go so far to claim it improbable. There wouldn't have to be a large migration, and we know that number of Albanians wasn't that large even in the 16th century:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Albania#Historical

We can only guess what would have been numbers for a supposed migration, but I don't see a number of (let's say) 10.000 that much improbable.


The claim that native communities were profusely Latinized (or Hellenized in south of the so-called Jircek line) makes even more improbable for how could a small tribe from Dacia succeed in subjugation a densely urbanized territory like that of Albania?
Where did you get that it was densely urbanized? For all we know plague and wars demolished Balkans in medieval times to the point that Byzantine emperor was almost begging barbarians to come here to have some subjetcs to pay taxes.


Any migration would not have gone un-noticed, all the more so when Byzantine chroniclers noticed even small inroads of barbaric tribes. It's almost impossible for a population to sneak out un-noticed through the watchful eyes of Byzantines, let alone to wipe out a population twice of its number.
This is a sort of catch 22 for you :) If you believe that Byzantines were so attentive, and that they really had noticed every small tribe in the area, then you also must believe that there were no Albanians there before Byzantines first mentioned them.

Such a scenario would cause unbridled unrest but this is not the case. Indeed this ill-fated hypothesis was broached by Vladimir Georgiev, who refined the arguments of Weigand (another linguist who pored doubts about Illyrian origin of the Albanians). At first this was a mite startling but soon turned out to be totally unfounded for a myriad of reasons. The Dacian evidence is less clear than that of Illyrian: a large part of it evince no obvious connection with Albanian.
You start your scenario with populated areas and wiping of populations, but that is not the case. Even until recently those areas were very sparsely populated, and uninteresting for the conquerors.


To make a long story short, it's of utmost importance to scrutinize ancient borrowings of Albanian from either Greek or Latin, in order to set out a chronological framework. Albanian has heaps of Doric borrowings which presumably intruded through the vast network of Doric colonies. An analysis upon these loanwords led to the conclusion that most of them took place into Albanian vocabulary before Christ. The same goes for Latin borrowings. This argument provides an additional proof for locating proto-Albanian urheimat somewhere in nearby of north-west Greek dialects, that is the modern territory of Albania.

1. Agree.
2. Heaps I'm looking for, and are needed for a good analysis, but only a handful have I found in publications. This again doesn't disprove a possibility that Albanian could be a hybrid of a Dorian dialect spoken in the remnants of ancient Macedonia in the time of possible arrival of Albanians in 5th-10th century

P.S: The intrusion of proto-Albanian (i.e 'Illyrian' or a language sibling with Messapic) took place into a vaguely time, most likely around 2000 years BC, when IE dialect bearers engulfed Balkans. The primeval homeland of proto-Albanian must located into a territory which was somewhere in-between that of Proto-Balto-Slavic and proto-Iranian. Northern slopes of Carpathian mountains appears to be one of the early cradles of proto-Albanan; with the drift of time, proto-Illyro-Albanian shifted in south through Dacia, moving all the way to western chunks of Balkans; a stream of them went far beyond Balkans: the Messapi-speaking tribes. Whereas Proto-Balto-Slavic shifted farther north and then broke off into two distinct, yet closely related groups. This is why both Albanian, Baltic and Slavic share certain isoglosses (satem-like developments; delabialization of /o/, morphological features, etc, etc). Thus I am prone to subscribe to the hypothesis of H. Mayer who authored numerous articles concerning this vexing question.

Possible. Albanian is a very weird apple on current linguistic map.
 
It is theory of Romanian scientists, and not only Romanian.
Historians didn't accurately record because it is not a large group of people.
They (part of them) moved from the area were lived parts of Romania, Moldavia, Ukraine, it is possible and parts of Slovakia and Poland, to one part of Albania.
Although in the Internet we can see movement from Romania over Hungary and Serbia to Albania, probably path was Romania-Bulgaria-Macedonia-Albania.
And one of smaller part of Albania, not whole Albania.
Bulgarian scientists with hard evidence proved powerful Slavic presence and huge number of Slavic toponyms in whole Albania , except for a smaller part.
On basis of researches of Bulgarian scientists someone set image where from Free Dacian area Albanians came to part today's Albania somewhere 6-10 century (some people think their number were 50.000-100.000):

iyn809.jpg



Someone will notice that I give data of Western, Romanian, Bulgarian scientists, etc., and Albanian too, not Serbian, and it is true, I have nothing against Serbian sources but it is true I very rarely use Serbian sources.


It seems you and Abeis support the same theory, just with a 2.000 years difference of arrival :)
 
Here is some Illyrian names from the region somewhere Albanians nowaday inhabit;

King Bardilys powerful Illyrian king which subjected Macedon for some time,Albanians trace it to bardhe meaning white.

In Slavic oral poetry Bardylis is called "Bradilo" which will mean "bearded man"
Now Bardyllis you have the today Slavic-Brada meaning beard.
From Proto-Balto-Slavic *bordዋʔ, from Proto-Indo-European *bʰardʰeh₂.Balto-Slavic cognates include Lithuanian barzda, Latvian bārda and Old Prussian bordus.Other Indo-European cognates include Latin barba, Old High German bart, English beard.Try to trace it otherwise?

Audata granddaughter of Bardylis which become wife to Phillip of Macedon,Udata in Slavonic languages mean "married" from dati "to give"

Bircenna was daugther of king Bardyllis which become wife of Pyrhus of Epirus,to my mind come Biser,Biseran meaning pearl,resembling pearls,present day names Bisera is common,i can't find origin of this word or cognates.

Dardanos,Dardanians founder Dardanos,Albanians say is from Dardhe meaning pearl,but Dar and Dan,say Dardan "os" most probably Hellenized suffix, if connect this two i have the first "dar" meaning "gift" in Slavic- second "dan" mean given,which will translate as "given gift".founded well in present day Slavic names both "Dar" and "Dan" names like "Bogdan" from Bog and Dan mean "given by god"
"Bozidar" from Bozi and Dar meaning "gift by god" and so on..

I will like someone comment on this names if their is better explanation of their etymology.


If you want to search for Slavic etymology of these names, then you'd have to prove an existence of Slavic languages in those areas in a timespan discussed here. Some pre Christ samples of R1a or I2 would help promote that idea. Up until then it sound just like Albanian claiming of term Afrodite as female name Nearday, or Illyr as Freeman but they always fail to notice that it was an exonym :)

My personal opinion is that this Dardania you're talking about was not even called Dardania. They're located upstream Vardar river (from ancient Macedonian point of view), and king was probably called Vardilys. The real Dardania is where Dardanelles are.
 
If you want to search for Slavic etymology of these names, then you'd have to prove an existence of Slavic languages in those areas in a timespan discussed here. Some pre Christ samples of R1a or I2 would help promote that idea. Up until then it sound just like Albanian claiming of term Afrodite as female name Nearday, or Illyr as Freeman but they always fail to notice that it was an exonym :)

My personal opinion is that this Dardania you're talking about was not even called Dardania. They're located upstream Vardar river (from ancient Macedonian point of view), and king was probably called Vardilys. The real Dardania is where Dardanelles are.

was dardar really vardar?

Dardanians originally lived in the fertile lands called, in ancient times Moesia. The dardanians where attaked by macedonians, illyrians and Thracians all the time, which is why they ended up in the hill of kosovo and albania.
 
was dardar really vardar?

Dardanians originally lived in the fertile lands called, in ancient times Moesia. The dardanians where attaked by macedonians, illyrians and Thracians all the time, which is why they ended up in the hill of kosovo and albania.

Nope. That's just my personal innovation. Skoplje (city on the riverbanks of Vardar) was the capital of Dardania.

As I recall, Dardanians were never in Albania. Only South Serbia, Kosovo and North Republic of Macedonia.
 
If you want to search for Slavic etymology of these names, then you'd have to prove an existence of Slavic languages in those areas in a timespan discussed here. Some pre Christ samples of R1a or I2 would help promote that idea. Up until then it sound just like Albanian claiming of term Afrodite as female name Nearday, or Illyr as Freeman but they always fail to notice that it was an exonym :)

My personal opinion is that this Dardania you're talking about was not even called Dardania. They're located upstream Vardar river (from ancient Macedonian point of view), and king was probably called Vardilys. The real Dardania is where Dardanelles are.
I agree on that,but in terms on searching IE origin of some words we can use any language that is IE,no one proved Baltic or other presence in Balkans yet they use the same languages on toponymy etc in the region,however in language hypothesis i believe to be truth the said languages were present where they are,you are right on certain names many authors had different things to say and using their imagination,Vardar on ancient Greek was called "Axios" which mean Dark coloured from "Axsaena" Indo-Iranic Avestan-etymology and also called Bardarios in Latin,proposed from Thracian, from PIE *(s)wordo-wori- 'black water',we have "Varna" in Bulgaria on the Black sea too,Proto-Slavic "varn" mean black,the same word we don't use anymore,however i doubt this can be used on the river "Vardar" itself.
Proposal about Illyrian king Bardylis to be "Vardilys" you gave is interesting in many today Macedonian Slavic dialects the word "Vardi" is present in mean "to keep" to protect,hence in my opinion has same etymology as Proto-Germanic-wardijana and today English word "guard" itself,the same names are recorded in the name "Alexo" Alexandros "to protect" while 'andros" from aner mean man,Alexander protector of people most probably,however here the discussion is the Albanian language so i will no comment other languages anymore,im not very familiar with it.
 
Nope. That's just my personal innovation. Skoplje (city on the riverbanks of Vardar) was the capital of Dardania.

As I recall, Dardanians were never in Albania. Only South Serbia, Kosovo and North Republic of Macedonia.

Patience! In a medium time Scopje( Shkupi) will be the capital of Ilirida.I will say at most 25 yrs, at best in 15 yrs
Albs should take it seriously to work for autonomy of Sandzak, which is made of old Illyrian stock
 
2. Heaps I'm looking for, and are needed for a good analysis, but only a handful have I found in publications. This again doesn't disprove a possibility that Albanian could be a hybrid of a Dorian dialect spoken in the remnants of ancient Macedonia in the time of possible arrival of Albanians in 5th-10th century

I find the ancient Greek borrowings (mostly Doric) as the most intriguing facet of proto-Albanian. Unfortunately, there is not yet any all-embracing research. Some work conducted by Thumb, Jokl, Cabej, Witczak has painstakingly bolstered the fact that (some) proto-Albanian speakers were in contact with Dorians since a very ancient period. Truth be told, it's not clarified at all how these loanwords intruded into Albanian vocabulary. A central region in Balkans is easily precluded for Dorian presence never radiated afield coastal regions. Of some importance is the very fact that Romanian does not share such Doric borrowings, which in turn infers that proto-Albanian coalesced in a different environment from proto-Romanian. The likeliest scenario is that proto-Albanian was not far from Greek colonies of Epirus and southern Illyris. I'd like to analyse one of them:

The word for millstone μᾶχανᾶ by far is one of the most known loanwords. We can easily discern some conclusions:

1. Albanian took it from a Doric form μᾶχανᾶ (in juxtaposition with Ionic μῆχανῆ). This make some geographic sense given that Doric colonies were established all over Albanian coast since 8-th century B.C.

2. Albanian did not receive this loanword from lat. ma:china because had it been so then long latin vowel -a: would have given -a.

3. The latin cluster -chi- would produce most likely a palatal (q), and its current form would have been *maqën.

4. The aspirated voiceless stop kʰ (χ) is reflected as "k" because Albanian lost from the very inception aspiration of stops.

Arousing from the above-mentioned features, we can pretty safely bundle a handful of Greek borrowings which clearly precede 3th century B.C/

But let's stick with the root brent. BTW isn't the name of the Brač derived from the name for a music instrument.

I'd query that. In Slavic language the cluster /ti̯/ evolved into an affricate /č/: račun < rationem, Parentium > Poreč, Bolentium > Boleč, Bratia > Brač and so on. Therefore, Antun Mayer's claim is feasible, at least in terms of phonetics.

but how do you know that there has ever been a *brenta to start with in Albanian.

when construing the early stage of any language, we don't embark on any written source. Its the other way around. The current word is being analysed, compared into a broader sense and then envisaged its pristine form relying on a set of regular phonetic shifts.

you omit the facts the pinpoint Albanian to the Eastern parts of Balkans.

I surely do not omit any watertight evidence which would prove the opposite of my claim. I just pointed out how weak and untenable Dacian hypothesis is. I do not rule out that proto-Illyro-Albanian shifted through north-eastern sections of Balkans, but in a IE context, that is the period 2000 BC onwards. If Albanian really coalesced in eastern flanks of Balkans, then it's to be expected to find palpable evidences of its presence; for example ancient Dacian place-names (or Mysian - as a softened version of Dacian hypothesis) were simply lost or not transmitted through Albanian. Conversely, ancient toponymes in modern Albania account for a relatively unbroken persistence. The name of Pirustae (an Illyrian tribe who used to live in northern Albania) is preserved as Prushi (Qafa e Prushit). When tackling with attested forms Πιροῦσται/Πειροῦσται, it becomes glaringly obvious that Albanian-speakers were single-handedly responsible for maintaining this toponym: diphtong /ou/ has been simplified to /u/, whilst the consonant cluster /st/ got assimilated in /sh/; cf. lat. testa > teshë.

unless Albanians themselves stop using science as a tool for political purpose in Enver Hoxha style.

Oh you can't relegate the question of Illyrian ancestry of Albanian language by introducing some titillating conspiracy stories involving even Enver Hoxha. The fact is that Illyrian hypothesis has long before Hoxha broached: its main proponents were non-Albanian linguists. Even nowadays, Illyrian hypothesis is well-received among scholars handling with Albanian; they endorse this hypothesis because they find as the most convincing among other conjectures. Even, Eric Hamp endorses (of course with a commendable caution) Illyrian option. Hamp is beyond any doubt one of the most renowned living Indo-Europanists. Albanian falls among his major interest for he has authored dozens of articles relating certain facets of Albanian phonology and morphology. Either way, Eric Hamp’s main advantage is that he intertwined his keen knowledge with direct contacts with Albanian-speakers of rare dialects (like that of arbëresh on Southern Italy). In his early writings, Hamp opted strongly for Illyrian origin of Albanian emphasizing some common elements. Truth be told, in the ensuing years he became more and more suspicious concerning Illyrian and viewed it as a “slippery entity”. His recent idea has Albanian as a sole survivor of a language which once was spoken from the Carpathian mountains all the way to Albania. Then again, professor Hamp is too circumspect to ascribe the antecedent of Albanian whether as Dacian or Illyrian as long as both of them are fairly obscure languages. I did have the good fortune to hear an impressive lecture of Hamp during a conference held in Tirana on December 2008. Despite his age, Hamp with his unparalleled wit analyzed in a thorough insightful manner two ostensibly Latin words, which according to him, were borrowed by Illyrian. He stated that the specific development of these two words in Albanian (thikë, thupën respectively) makes it likely they were introduced by ancestors of Albanians on Latin. Moreover, in a couple of interviews on this occasion, Hamp clung on Illyrian thesis as the most likely one.

If you believe that Byzantines were so attentive, and that they really had noticed every small tribe in the area, then you also must believe that there were no Albanians there before Byzantines first mentioned them.

The period spanning from Slavic invasion until 11th century, is a complete twilight when it comes to historical sources. Albanians, at that time were Byzantine subjects who sunk to oblivion by retreating deep into mountainous fastness. As long as they recognized Byzantine ascendancy, there was no need to describe them as a distinct entity. If you stumble upon Byzantine chroniclers before 10-11 century, there is no mention at all for other ethno-linguistic groups within Empire. From the imperial perspective, all inhabitants were Romei as long as they were loyal citizens of Constantinople, recognizing its authority and sharing its religion. But when its rule went into gradual dissolution, certain political entities popped out, so the Byzantines were compelled to deal with them. Once Albanians uplifted from their oblivion, by establishing their nearly-independent entity around Arbanon and carried out a policy of their own, then Byzantines felt the need to describe them as a distinct group, yet very intimate with Byzantines. At this period, Byzantines threw their spotlight in their western dominions because new powers were quickly changing the political environment.


Where did you get that it was densely urbanized? For all we know plague and wars demolished Balkans in medieval times to the point that Byzantine emperor was almost begging barbarians to come here to have some subjetcs to pay taxes.

The key factor of salvation of the old Illyrian and Roman preeminence in western Balkans was Justinian's fortress building program, which sheltered the population during Avar and Slavic raids. As Florin Curta holds, from the later sixth century, the western Balkans seem to have experienced a much earlier phase of the transformation of the settlement pattern known as incastellamento. This explains why in both Romanian (the language of Romanized natives) and Albanian (the lightly or less tainted Romanized languages of the natives), the term in use for fort (cetate and qytet, respectively) derives from the Latin word for city (civitas). Another hint for the continuous presence of Albanians in western sections of Balkans is the preservation of Lat. imperator 'emperor' as alb. mbret and rum. imparat, which explains the continued existence in Byzantium.

There wouldn't have to be a large migration, and we know that number of Albanians wasn't that large even in the 16th century

It does not require lot of imagination to conceive that a small community could never supersede a whole population, let alone to wholly assimilate it. When Avars with Slavic infantry besieged Naissus and other Roman cities, extant sources were full of detailed reports how local population withstood against them or fled in southern areas (like Thessaloniki). No clashes whatsoever are recorded on these parts of Balkans; archaeological excavations reveal the persistence of urban and rural settlements, though restricted in their extension.

Why such hard gymnastics to put together incompatible?

You're bigger fool than I thought. Can anyone tell me one good reason why should I waste my precious time dealing with a nuisance who barely can string together two words into anything remotely resembling English? Why do all stupid people have such a self-assured convictions?

Even Swedish word brinde is much more appropriate than Albanian (dre).

I've never seen you to dissect any argument in a logical fashion, just putting together some words into your woeful English without being put through in any sort of mental filter. You go off-tangent all the time, holy smoke, you're that type of person that goes through an entire book and comes away learning nothing from it, just some more head scratching. Alb. dre (definite dreni) is a different word, stemming from a different root (<*dhron-), but the Albanian cognate ,brin' with the attested Illyrian forms is compelling.

Illyrian, Messapian etc. are CENTUM languages, CENTUM languages are mostly western branches,

You know next to nothing, you obtuse simpleton. The moment you come to recognize your sheer ignorance, you'd commit suicide if you got any notion of honor. I don't even acknowledge you in here, most people ignore you and other just ridicule you to the point of indignity. The claim that Illyrian was a centum-type languages rests on some erroneous etymologies and the seemingly unfounded claim of Illyrian being of Veneti. The evidences exemplifying satem-like developments outweighs those 'centum'. Closed case!

In Russu's opinion, the historical phonetics of the Albanian language as a satem type could be in accordance with the Illyrian as well as the Thracian [which are] both the same type, satem.

:LOL: You're so fond of Romanian scholars, so be enough courteous as to admit their assertions.
 
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Patience! In a medium time Scopje( Shkupi) will be the capital of Ilirida.I will say at most 25 yrs, at best in 15 yrs
Albs should take it seriously to work for autonomy of Sandzak, which is made of old Illyrian stock

Your post has absolutely nothing to do with Illyrian or Albanian linguistics, or the prior conversation and should be deleted.
 
I find the ancient Greek borrowings (mostly Doric) as the most intriguing facet of proto-Albanian. Unfortunately, there is not yet any all-embracing research. Some work conducted by Thumb, Jokl, Cabej, Witczak has painstakingly bolstered the fact that (some) proto-Albanian speakers were in contact with Dorians since a very ancient period. Truth be told, it's not clarified at all how these loanwords intruded into Albanian vocabulary. A central region in Balkans is easily precluded for Dorian presence never radiated afield coastal regions. Of some importance is the very fact that Romanian does not share such Doric borrowings, which in turn infers that proto-Albanian coalesced in a different environment from proto-Romanian. The likeliest scenario is that proto-Albanian was not far from Greek colonies of Epirus and southern Illyris. I'd like to analyse one of them:

The word for millstone μᾶχανᾶ by far is one of the most known loanwords. We can easily discern some conclusions:

1. Albanian took it from a Doric form μᾶχανᾶ (in juxtaposition with Ionic μῆχανῆ). This make some geographic sense given that Doric colonies were established all over Albanian coast since 8-th century B.C.

2. Albanian did not receive this loanword from lat. ma:china because had it been so then long latin vowel -a: would have given -a.

3. The latin cluster -chi- would produce most likely a palatal (q), and its current form would have been *maqën.

4. The aspirated voiceless stop kʰ (χ) is reflected as "k" because Albanian lost from the very inception aspiration of stops.

Arousing from the above-mentioned features, we can pretty safely bundle a handful of Greek borrowings which clearly precede 3th century B.C/



I'd query that. In Slavic language the cluster /ti̯/ evolved into an affricate /č/: račun < rationem, Parentium > Poreč, Bolentium > Boleč, Bratia > Brač and so on. Therefore, Antun Mayer's claim is feasible, at least in terms of phonetics.



when construing the early stage of any language, we don't embark on any written source. Its the other way around. The current word is being analysed, compared into a broader sense and then envisaged its pristine form relying on a set of regular phonetic shifts.



I surely do not omit any watertight evidence which would prove the opposite of my claim. I just pointed out how weak and untenable Dacian hypothesis is. I do not rule out that proto-Illyro-Albanian shifted through north-eastern sections of Balkans, but in a IE context, that is the period 2000 BC onwards. If Albanian really coalesced in eastern flanks of Balkans, then it's to be expected to find palpable evidences of its presence; for example ancient Dacian place-names (or Mysian - as a softened version of Dacian hypothesis) were simply lost or not transmitted through Albanian. Conversely, ancient toponymes in modern Albania account for a relatively unbroken persistence. The name of Pirustae (an Illyrian tribe who used to live in northern Albania) is preserved as Prushi (Qafa e Prushit). When tackling with attested forms Πιροῦσται/Πειροῦσται, it becomes glaringly obvious that Albanian-speakers were single-handedly responsible for maintaining this toponym: diphtong /ou/ has been simplified to /u/, whilst the consonant cluster /st/ got assimilated in /sh/; cf. lat. testa > teshë.



Oh you can't relegate the question of Illyrian ancestry of Albanian language by introducing some titillating conspiracy stories involving even Enver Hoxha. The fact is that Illyrian hypothesis has long before Hoxha broached: its main proponents were non-Albanian linguists. Even nowadays, Illyrian hypothesis is well-received among scholars handling with Albanian; they endorse this hypothesis because they find as the most convincing among other conjectures. Even, Eric Hamp endorses (of course with a commendable caution) Illyrian option. Hamp is beyond any doubt one of the most renowned living Indo-Europanists. Albanian falls among his major interest for he has authored dozens of articles relating certain facets of Albanian phonology and morphology. Either way, Eric Hamp’s main advantage is that he intertwined his keen knowledge with direct contacts with Albanian-speakers of rare dialects (like that of arbëresh on Southern Italy). In his early writings, Hamp opted strongly for Illyrian origin of Albanian emphasizing some common elements. Truth be told, in the ensuing years he became more and more suspicious concerning Illyrian and viewed it as a “slippery entity”. His recent idea has Albanian as a sole survivor of a language which once was spoken from the Carpathian mountains all the way to Albania. Then again, professor Hamp is too circumspect to ascribe the antecedent of Albanian whether as Dacian or Illyrian as long as both of them are fairly obscure languages. I did have the good fortune to hear an impressive lecture of Hamp during a conference held in Tirana on December 2008. Despite his age, Hamp with his unparalleled wit analyzed in a thorough insightful manner two ostensibly Latin words, which according to him, were borrowed by Illyrian. He stated that the specific development of these two words in Albanian (thikë, thupën respectively) makes it likely they were introduced by ancestors of Albanians on Latin. Moreover, in a couple of interviews on this occasion, Hamp clung on Illyrian thesis as the most likely one.



The period spanning from Slavic invasion until 11th century, is a complete twilight when it comes to historical sources. Albanians, at that time were Byzantine subjects who sunk to oblivion by retreating deep into mountainous fastness. As long as they recognized Byzantine ascendancy, there was no need to describe them as a distinct entity. If you stumble upon Byzantine chroniclers before 10-11 century, there is no mention at all for other ethno-linguistic groups within Empire. From the imperial perspective, all inhabitants were Romei as long as they were loyal citizens of Constantinople, recognizing its authority and sharing its religion. But when its rule went into gradual dissolution, certain political entities popped out, so the Byzantines were compelled to deal with them. Once Albanians uplifted from their oblivion, by establishing their nearly-independent entity around Arbanon and carried out a policy of their own, then Byzantines felt the need to describe them as a distinct group, yet very intimate with Byzantines. At this period, Byzantines threw their spotlight in their western dominions because new powers were quickly changing the political environment.




The key factor of salvation of the old Illyrian and Roman preeminence in western Balkans was Justinian's fortress building program, which sheltered the population during Avar and Slavic raids. As Florin Curta holds, from the later sixth century, the western Balkans seem to have experienced a much earlier phase of the transformation of the settlement pattern known as incastellamento. This explains why in both Romanian (the language of Romanized natives) and Albanian (the lightly or less tainted Romanized languages of the natives), the term in use for fort (cetate and qytet, respectively) derives from the Latin word for city (civitas). Another hint for the continuous presence of Albanians in western sections of Balkans is the preservation of Lat. imperator 'emperor' as alb. mbret and rum. imparat, which explains the continued existence in Byzantium.



It does not require lot of imagination to conceive that a small community could never supersede a whole population, let alone to wholly assimilate it. When Avars with Slavic infantry besieged Naissus and other Roman cities, extant sources were full of detailed reports how local population withstood against them or fled in southern areas (like Thessaloniki). No clashes whatsoever are recorded on these parts of Balkans; archaeological excavations reveal the persistence of urban and rural settlements, though restricted in their extension.



You're bigger fool than I thought. Can anyone tell me one good reason why should I waste my precious time dealing with a nuisance who barely can string together two words into anything remotely resembling English? Why do all stupid people have such a self-assured convictions?



I've never seen you to dissect any argument in a logical fashion, just putting together some words into your woeful English without being put through in any sort of mental filter. You go off-tangent all the time, holy smoke, you're that type of person that goes through an entire book and comes away learning nothing from it, just some more head scratching. Alb. dre (definite dreni) is a different word, stemming from a different root (<*dhron-), but the Albanian cognate ,brin' with the attested Illyrian forms is compelling.



You know next to nothing, you obtuse simpleton. The moment you come to recognize your sheer ignorance, you'd commit suicide if you got any notion of honor. I don't even acknowledge you in here, most people ignore you and other just ridicule you to the point of indignity. The claim that Illyrian was a centum-type languages rests on some erroneous etymologies and the seemingly unfounded claim of Illyrian being of Veneti. The evidences exemplifying satem-like developments outweighs those 'centum'. Closed case!



:LOL: You're so fond of Romanian scholars, so be enough courteous as to admit their assertions.
Your post is mix of lingustics and history,you quote Slavic invasion and migration then you quote Florin Curta who does not support any Slavic migration but he call to all historians to retreat from that perceptions and he is not linguist,further more saying that Albanians were Byzantine subjects you must not know the history of that period,Byzantines had no control even in Peloponese for 217 years except some coastal cities with rise of Charlemagne they begin to recover,the word "thike" you stated knife in Albanian you want to connect with the Illyrian-Sicca,but Sicca is coming from IE-root "sek"- to cut,common in Slavic and Latin,but not Albanian like Slavic "sekyra" and Latin "securis" meaning axe,further you say Albanians in western sections of Balkans is the preservation of Lat. imperator 'emperor' as alb. mbret and rum. imparat, which explains the continued existence in Byzantium,the Slavonic word "Tsar" for emperor come from Cesar we don't claim being in Cesar time overthere for that,my question is historical first where would be the Albanians here,situation was like this for quite some time where were they until 11th century first mention? while i agree that there is no recorded migration from north or anything except the claim of one Byzantine historian that Albanians came during Norman-Byzantine wars 11th century in the land they are now from Italy somwhere.
Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.JPG
 
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Your post is mix of lingustics and history,you quote Slavic invasion and migration then you quote Florin Curta who does not support any Slavic migration but he call to all historians to retreat from that perceptions and he is not linguist

I went a little-off from the main theme partly because I was compelled to reply numerous comments. I know pretty well Curta's position in regards with Slavic migration issue. I just cited the part where he touched the question of urbanization in the western parts of Byzantium. He opined that urban settlements were reduced to a small extent, nonetheless, they continued to exist during all the time, so the Slavic inroads caused no distraction at all. While I admire Curta's wit in scrutinizing medieval texts relating Slavs, I oppose vehemently his modernist approaches about ethnic identity in Middle Ages. He holds that Slavic identity was construed merely on perceptions rather than 'biological' factors. This whole thing seems far too fishy to me. I just don't subscribe much to the modernist approaches regarding ethnic identities in early medieval Europe. It would be unwarranted to pain the formation of all ethnic identities with one brush. I have some quibbles on the instrumentalist view which is unreasonably oversimplified. Such hypothesis fails to acknowledge the fact that ''shared interests'' (common myths) in all probability, are not perceived equally by the members of group. Thus I am inclined to adhere the common-held view, according to which ethnic groups are rather steady actors on the history as individuals do in fact stubbornly continue to unite with those with whom they have ties of ethnic sameness despite such alliance might run contrary to the patterns of certain social groups.

the word "thike" you stated knife in Albanian you want to connect with the Illyrian-Sicca,but Sicca is coming from IE-root "sek"- to cut,common in Slavic and Latin,English saga but not Albanian like Slavic "sekyra" and Latin "securis" meaning axe

I cited Hamp's view on this matter, so I'm not going to derail once again from the main point of the thread. In case you don't know, according to the phonetic patterns governing Albanian, the initial voiceless dental fricative /th/ is a regular outcome of a previous /*s/ in prevocalic position.

the Slavonic word "Tsar" for emperor come from Cesar we don't claim being in Cesar time overthere for that

With the important difference that Slavs acquired this term through the ecclesiastical literature, not because of their permanent existence within Byzantium. It should not go without mention the fact that Byzantium rule over Slavs lasted 200-300 years, while Albanians, Vlachs and Byzantine-Greek speakings from Hellas proper were more embodied with Byzantine political life which is why administrative terms paved their way to Albanian vocabulary.

except the claim of one Byzantine historian that Albanians came during Norman-Byzantine wars 11th century in the land they are now from Italy somwhere.

Would you mind in seeing the full passage of Attaliates? I am not sure whether it does works in favour of your interpretation...
 
Well, this is all from me for now. I've written a very long post, but the forum ensured to log me out and not to auto-save the content.
Maybe one of these days ....
 

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