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Thread: Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    An Albanian could never say that. Albanians lack the East Asian haplogroups Q,N which says Albanians never were close to any eastern or wetern Asian area.
    The question is: What about Serbs?
    Abundance of Chinese Q, N, Arab J1 etc... So the person saying that Albs came from Bastanee is in fact a bastard who traveled from present day Mongolia all way to Balkans accumulating Gysy haplogroups on the way of their jurney.
    I dont think j halopgroup is arabs,, I came from ij an split into i an j another drift,then branched off

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    Typical of Eupedia, threads getting destroyed by the simpletons like Garrick, Sile, Ike, Milan and Ukaj. A mod should delete all their non sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    I think the Illyrian Marker should be I1. There is about 5% and up in ex Yugoslav republic's and Northern Albania, Kosovo, from this haplotype. Also EV13, J2B, AND G2 are also Illyrian. Illyrians invaded the region about 2000 yrs bc.
    they recently found the oldest I2a in Switzerland, 12000 years old ............how can that marker be slavic?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    I dont think j halopgroup is arabs,, I came from ij an split into i an j another drift,then branched off
    J1 is definitely an arabic marker with 85% plus being arabic in the middle East and the marker J1e has even more of a higher percent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    Typical of Eupedia, threads getting destroyed by the simpletons like Garrick, Sile, Ike, Milan and Ukaj. A mod should delete all their non sense.
    hahahha An we should leave your because it is correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    Typical of Eupedia, threads getting destroyed by the simpletons like Garrick, Sile, Ike, Milan and Ukaj. A mod should delete all their non sense.
    No, please don`t delete nothing. I'm having fun with this thread. Five pages of guaranteed entertainment. I'm learning new things. Until now the most interesting thing that I learned is that half of Eastern Europe is full with Albanian toponyms. I have to admit, Garrick is a specialist about toponyms. So, slavs in East Europe are not slavs but Albanians and Albanians are.....Oh my God, i am being confused. Serbian things.
    But the most interesting post of this thread is this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I have a work colleague, an Albanian heritage , who says ( was told by his gfather ) albanians originate as part the Bastanae ( mixed people ) and where part of the 80000 contingent that went from the south Carpathians mountain area to Macedonia to help Philip of Macedon defeat the advancing illyrians from the north .......I think it was about 350BC

    I doubt that..........but the bastanae ....where a bastard people of different races
    So, an colleague of work of Sille, an Albanian heritage, told to him that his grandfather told to him that Albanians originate from Bastanae. Excuse me for my ignorance, sille. Who are this Bastanae? I searched on Google and i found this family of Bastanae in New Mexico:
    http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=bastane
    Are you referring to this family?
    This thread is an important contribution that Serbs make to Albanians, confirming what we say that serbs suffer from an inferiority complex and are unprecedented falsifiers.
    So this thread should remain as evidence of the typical shameful effort that Serbs make everywhere and not only in this forum to slander the Albanians. My opinion is that Albanians member should distance themselves from this "academic discussion" and let the Serbs to continue.Discrediting themselves, they make a great service to us Albanians. Then, it`s free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    Typical of Eupedia, threads getting destroyed by the simpletons like Garrick, Sile, Ike, Milan and Ukaj. A mod should delete all their non sense.
    It is not offense, this is like as Enver Hoxha way of thinking.

    If you do not like someone's words they should be deleted.

    I disagree with many Albanians here, but I have never asked for deleting their words if they comply with forum rules, this is a free forum, each one can write what he or she wants (if it is in accordance with rules of forum), let everyone share his or her views.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    It is not offense, this is like as Enver Hoxha way of thinking.

    If you do not like someone's words they should be deleted.

    I disagree with many Albanians here, but I have never asked for deleting their words if they comply with forum rules, this is a free forum, each one can write what he or she wants (if it is in accordance with rules of forum), let everyone share his or her views.
    Well, I disagree with you. Albanians should be forbidden to discuss their subject. This is yet another thread, that started well and quickly went South as soon as Albo-nationalists showed up with their comments (#74 - WTH with that?!) that have nothing to do with the subject.

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    [QUOTE=Sile;472769]they recently found the oldest I2a in Switzerland, 12000 years old ............how can that marker be slavic?[/QUOT

    Slavs are not a homogeneous group. The original Slavs according to my point of view should have been looked like the polish today. As the expanded Slavs absorbed a huge number of other people and haplogroups. Russians today have 30% N1c alone from absorbing a huge numbers of Mongolians. Russians and Polish for a trained eye look strikingly different. So did the Slavs of the Balkans. They have absorbed on their way a population with I2a dinaric. Its not that I2a was originally a Slavic marker. R1a was. It could have been present in Illyrian populations but how could we be certain that I2a was Illyrian? We know that Illyrians came to Ballkans 3500-4000 yrs BC. Albanian language shows affinities with Balto-Slavic languages which means sometime in the distance past Illyrians and Baltics were in proximity with each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    No, please don`t delete nothing. I'm having fun with this thread. Five pages of guaranteed entertainment. I'm learning new things. Until now the most interesting thing that I learned is that half of Eastern Europe is full with Albanian toponyms. I have to admit, Garrick is a specialist about toponyms. So, slavs in East Europe are not slavs but Albanians and Albanians are.....Oh my God, i am being confused. Serbian things.
    But the most interesting post of this thread is this:

    So, an colleague of work of Sille, an Albanian heritage, told to him that his grandfather told to him that Albanians originate from Bastanae. Excuse me for my ignorance, sille. Who are this Bastanae? I searched on Google and i found this family of Bastanae in New Mexico:
    http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=bastane
    Are you referring to this family?
    This thread is an important contribution that Serbs make to Albanians, confirming what we say that serbs suffer from an inferiority complex and are unprecedented falsifiers.
    So this thread should remain as evidence of the typical shameful effort that Serbs make everywhere and not only in this forum to slander the Albanians. My opinion is that Albanians member should distance themselves from this "academic discussion" and let the Serbs to continue.Discrediting themselves, they make a great service to us Albanians. Then, it`s free.
    sorry wrong spelling

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae

    moved to moesia and dardania, fought and lived there as well

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Talking about same Chalkokondyles we saw what he thought about Albanian origin,he has however very different opinion on other ethnicities in the Balkans maybe not many are familiar with his work,he is regarded as best historian the Byzantine had in last 150 years;

    ,,Τριβαλλοι, Σερβλοι, ο δε ευνοζ παλαιοτατον και μεγιοτον των ευνων…


    “Tryballos, Serblos, autem gentem esse totius orbis antiquissimam et maximam, compertum habeo…”


    English; the Tribalians-Serbs are one of the oldest and greatest people on earth,i know for sure
    interesting further connect them with "Illyrians"

    Maybe we gonna accuse him of being Serb too but he was from Athens.
    We can only accuse him of being mad or talking fiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    Talking about same Chalkokondyles we saw what he thought about Albanian origin,he has however very different opinion on other ethnicities in the Balkans maybe not many are familiar with his work,he is regarded as best historian the Byzantine had in last 150 years;
    Listen up you bloated scoundrel; its getting bothersome to deal with your unbridled ignorance on almost every relevant field. Why you keep jumping from one thread to the other, without even realizing what's being said. Laonikos Chalkokondyles resurrected ancient names to label certain ethnic groups at his time. Most of Byzantine chroniclers who were familiar with ancient tradition, applied ancient terms to describe actual peoples. When Chalkondyles refers to Serbs as Τριβαλλοι, he meant serbs who were living in the territories once entitled as Triballia. He goes onto say that once Stefan Dušan became king of Triballians, he subjuguated Macedonia as far as Skopje. His subjects used to spoke the same language as the inhabitants of Dalmatian coast which were Venetian dominions. According to Chalkokondyles, they spoke the same language (φωνῆ), customs and traditions. In following, the Athenian historian firmly rejects the claim that Albanians were similar to them:



    Elsewhere, Chalkokondyles describes the territories dwellt by a populace "of the same language" which commenced from northern Albania in south as far as Karner Gulf. He clarifies that they acquired the name 'Illyrian' because of their country they lived on. Accordingly, Chalkokondyles never laid any claim of relating ancient Illyrians with Slavs.



    Don't post worthless quotes, without first analyzing what does they mean.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    Listen up you bloated scoundrel; its getting bothersome to deal with your unbridled ignorance on almost every relevant field. Why you keep jumping from one thread to the other, without even realizing what's being said. Laonikos Chalkokondyles resurrected ancient names to label certain ethnic groups at his time. Most of Byzantine chroniclers who were familiar with ancient tradition, applied ancient terms to describe actual peoples. When Chalkondyles refers to Serbs as Τριβαλλοι, he meant serbs who were living in the territories once entitled as Triballia. He goes onto say that once Stefan Dušan became king of Triballians, he subjuguated Macedonia as far as Skopje. His subjects used to spoke the same language as the inhabitants of Dalmatian coast which were Venetian dominions. According to Chalkokondyles, they spoke the same language (φωνῆ), customs and traditions. In following, the Athenian historian firmly rejects the claim that Albanians were similar to them:



    Elsewhere, Chalkokondyles describes the territories dwellt by a populace "of the same language" which commenced from northern Albania in south as far as Karner Gulf. He clarifies that they acquired the name 'Illyrian' because of their country they lived on. Accordingly, Chalkokondyles never laid any claim of relating ancient Illyrians with Slavs.



    Don't post worthless quotes, without first analyzing what does they mean.
    The Serbs were called Triballians not only by him but by many historians you should read more a bit,that was Byzantine exonym for Serbs,because you are not in any record and because you don't like the words being said no reason to be mad,Stefan Dusan conquered as far Peloponese you don't have any history knowledge,Skopje was his capital,i very well know what does it mean Sclavines name was used only in 6-7th century describing territories not in ethnic sense,all other had their names further Serbs and other Yugo's until 19th century were called Illyrians by most of Europe not only Byzantines,that's documented im sorry,there is not record for you only imagination big wish and hunting for history from your side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    The Serbs were called Triballians not only by him but by many historians you should read more a bit,that was Byzantine exonym for Serbs,because you are not in any record and because you don't like the words being said no reason to be mad,Stefan Dusan conquered as far Peloponese you don't have any history knowledge,Skopje was his capital,i very well know what does it mean Sclavines name was used only in 6-7th century describing territories not in ethnic sense,all other had their names further Serbs and other Yugo's until 19th century were called Illyrians by most of Europe not only Byzantines,that's documented im sorry,there is not record for you only imagination big wish and hunting for history from your side.
    You would be excused if you're teen. By the way, how old are you, dude, if you don't mind asking? Its rather saddening that Serb adults are still embedded by nationalism, being completely unable to process anything worthy into any field of inquiry which is supposed to be untainted by politics. Go get a proper English education because you're wasting my time by repeating the same mistakes over and over again. You're getting a bad reputation making every Serb to look detestable because almost every thread gets polluted by your upside-down logic. You demented wanker, I explained very well how it came that Serbs acquired 'Triballian' label but all my patient efforts went like water-off-a-duck's-back. I am not any 'history' hunter; it would be mindnumbingly stupid to stake out claims on other's history. I am very mindful of Serb achievements during Dusan's reign but their power sunk into oblivion in the ensuing years. The same goes for Albanians, Greek-speaking Byzantines, Bulgarians who succumbed to the Ottoman yoke. I am not going, you simpleton, to repeat once again the reasons why Albanians 'appeared' quite lately into Byzantine sources. I am not going to dignify with any response because you've been astonishingly successful to reduce a linguistic thread into a messy board throwing back and forth nationalistic tantrums , for that i praise you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    You would be excused if you're teen. By the way, how old are you, dude, if you don't mind asking? Its rather saddening that Serb adults are still embedded by nationalism, being completely unable to process anything worthy into any field of inquiry which is supposed to be untainted by politics. Go get a proper English education because you're wasting my time by repeating the same mistakes over and over again. You're getting a bad reputation making every Serb to look detestable because almost every thread gets polluted by your upside-down logic. You demented wanker, I explained very well how it came that Serbs acquired 'Triballian' label but all my patient efforts went like water-off-a-duck's-back. I am not any 'history' hunter; it would be mindnumbingly stupid to stake out claims on other's history. I am very mindful of Serb achievements during Dusan's reign but their power sunk into oblivion in the ensuing years. The same goes for Albanians, Greek-speaking Byzantines, Bulgarians who succumbed to the Ottoman yoke. I am not going, you simpleton, to repeat once again the reasons why Albanians 'appeared' quite lately into Byzantine sources. I am not going to dignify with any response because you've been astonishingly successful to reduce a linguistic thread into a messy board throwing back and forth nationalistic tantrums , for that i praise you.
    On your own ignorance you repeat with insults, if somebody doesn't agree with you-you insult,if somebody doesn't share your point of view-you insult that's part of your culture and behavior,it is very clear and it's not novelty that Albanian origin is disputed,about nationalism i think is rather the opposite Albanians use Pelasgian,Illyrian and every kind of myth for nationalstic claims and irredentism,my people didn't cared when Europeans wrote history that they came from somewhere in the 7th century and it's just theory out of couple like many other nor anyone care even today,but this is used by people like yourself for imagined irredentism,go ahead and post something about linguistics,i asked a historical question cause we don't write history on myths rather on facts and there is neither of those,but just myths,will leave your thread now might you will be the first to prove the link between Albanian and Illyrian once and for all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    You would be excused if you're teen. By the way, how old are you, dude, if you don't mind asking? Its rather saddening that Serb adults are still embedded by nationalism, being completely unable to process anything worthy into any field of inquiry which is supposed to be untainted by politics. Go get a proper English education because you're wasting my time by repeating the same mistakes over and over again. You're getting a bad reputation making every Serb to look detestable because almost every thread gets polluted by your upside-down logic. You demented wanker, I explained very well how it came that Serbs acquired 'Triballian' label but all my patient efforts went like water-off-a-duck's-back. I am not any 'history' hunter; it would be mindnumbingly stupid to stake out claims on other's history. I am very mindful of Serb achievements during Dusan's reign but their power sunk into oblivion in the ensuing years. The same goes for Albanians, Greek-speaking Byzantines, Bulgarians who succumbed to the Ottoman yoke. I am not going, you simpleton, to repeat once again the reasons why Albanians 'appeared' quite lately into Byzantine sources. I am not going to dignify with any response because you've been astonishingly successful to reduce a linguistic thread into a messy board throwing back and forth nationalistic tantrums , for that i praise you.
    Illyrian and Pellasgian propaganda started at the time of Albania's communist dictator Enver Hoxha, it was a Enver Hoxha's state project of utmost importance. Since it entered in education system and the generations of Albanians that have passed Enver Hoxa's school thought that Albanians once were Illyrians and Pellasgians.

    It is path which is designed by dictator Enver Hoxha:
    1) invent that Albanians are descedants of Illyrians and Pellasgians
    2) create a strong propaganda about it and put in education system
    3) disable all who dare to challenge (according to scientific base and facts) Enver Hoxha's creation.
    In the picture: Enver Hoxha



    ...
    Everyone can read:
    Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jurgen
    Albanian Identities: Myths and History

    Indiana University Press, US

    "For instance, the ethnogenesis of the Albanians was an open question among Albanian scholars during the 1950s, but when Enver Hoxha declared that their origin was Illyrian (without denying their Pelasgian roots) no one dared participate in further discussion of the question. During the communist era, literary and artistic activity as well as academic studies (especially historical and linguistic studies) all adhered to this pattern. By this means a virtual world was created in which Albanians lived within the propaganda framework of the party and of the literary, artistic and academic works which pervaded schools, libraries, cinemas, theatres and exibitions"

    ...
    It is clear that allegedly "Illyrian and Pelasgian origin of Albanians" is Enver Hoxha's propaganda.

    In science it was never accepted, science works differently from propaganda, science seeks evidence, facts, and objective proofs.

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    Come again? You're itching to say that Enver Hoxha plucked out of thin air the Illyrian theory. holy smoke, I just spilled my coffee when I read this. Naah it's always the same recurring theme, Enver Hoxha did this, did that. Are you going to say that Enver Hoxha spent all his lifetime endeavoring to prove Illyrian ancestry of the Albanians? Then, you know next to nothing who really was Enver Hoxha. On the contrary, his main concern was to rule with a rod of iron as did many of his Communist colleagues all over Eastern Europe. The Illyrian hypothesis was propounded much earlier than Enver Hoxha: this theory, among others, was well-received among non-Albanian scholars (Paul Kretchmer, G. Mayer, H. Pedersen, Tagliviani), so this Enver Hoxha thing does not hold any water. Truth be told, in Yugoslavia when nationalism reared its ugly head, Serbian scholars held various conferences to disprove/belittle or obfuscate the Illyrian origin of ALbanians. Yet, there were a descent number of other impartial scholars who did not switch their positions. For instance, Aleksander Stipcevic sets out his remarkable book 'The Illyrians-History and Culture', (Noyes Press, English translation by Stojana Čulić Burton) as following:

    "In fact, a study of the history of Illyrians and their culture is not, as might be supposed, to be confined to the Illyrians as such, but must include a study of the cultural history of the Croats, Montenegrins, Slovenes and, in part, the Serbs, but above all, of the Albanians, who have now been scientifically proved to have stemmed directly from the old Illyrians"
    Are you suggesting that Enver Hoxha's agents just sneaked out and bribed scholars in Yugoslavia?

    John Wilkes, one of the leading authorities in regards with Illyrian studies, asserts that:

    "...the Albanian culture, as fascinating and varied as any in that quarter of Europe, is an inheritance from the several languages, religious and ethnic groups known to have inhabited the region since prehistoric times, among whom were the Illyrians".
    The Albanian language, which, according to John Wilkes again "has a distinctive vocabulary, morphology and phonetic rules which have engaged the attention of many philologists, of whom several have confidently proclaimed its origin from ancient Illyrian."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    Come again? You're itching to say that Enver Hoxha plucked out of thin air the Illyrian theory. holy smoke, I just spilled my coffee when I read this. Naah it's always the same recurring theme, Enver Hoxha did this, did that. Are you going to say that Enver Hoxha spent all his lifetime endeavoring to prove Illyrian ancestry of the Albanians? Then, you know next to nothing who really was Enver Hoxha. On the contrary, his main concern was to rule with a rod of iron as did many of his Communist colleagues all over Eastern Europe. The Illyrian hypothesis was propounded much earlier than Enver Hoxha: this theory, among others, was well-received among non-Albanian scholars (Paul Kretchmer, G. Mayer, H. Pedersen, Tagliviani), so this Enver Hoxha thing does not hold any water. Truth be told, in Yugoslavia when nationalism reared its ugly head, Serbian scholars held various conferences to disprove/belittle or obfuscate the Illyrian origin of ALbanians. Yet, there were a descent number of other impartial scholars who did not switch their positions. For instance, Aleksander Stipcevic sets out his remarkable book 'The Illyrians-History and Culture', (Noyes Press, English translation by Stojana Čulić Burton) as following:



    Are you suggesting that Enver Hoxha's agents just sneaked out and bribed scholars in Yugoslavia?

    John Wilkes, one of the leading authorities in regards with Illyrian studies, asserts that:



    The Albanian language, which, according to John Wilkes again "has a distinctive vocabulary, morphology and phonetic rules which have engaged the attention of many philologists, of whom several have confidently proclaimed its origin from ancient Illyrian."
    Please explain your theory on this Illyrian connection because Albania has less than 10% of ancient illyrian lands, it actually has 40% of ancient Epirote lands. With the Albanian government deciding in 1960 that the true Albanian language is Tosk and from this point , Tosk being the ONLY albanian dialect used in schools to this day, can only be from the conclusion that Albanians are more "greek" epirote than illyrian.

    The bulk of illyrian mix is with the Bosnians and Croatians , while Slovenians and Montenegrins are either the same as Albanians or slightly more.
    The Serbs have no illyrian mix, they have a thracian mix

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abeis View Post
    Come again? You're itching to say that Enver Hoxha plucked out of thin air the Illyrian theory. holy smoke, I just spilled my coffee when I read this. Naah it's always the same recurring theme, Enver Hoxha did this, did that. Are you going to say that Enver Hoxha spent all his lifetime endeavoring to prove Illyrian ancestry of the Albanians? Then, you know next to nothing who really was Enver Hoxha. On the contrary, his main concern was to rule with a rod of iron as did many of his Communist colleagues all over Eastern Europe. The Illyrian hypothesis was propounded much earlier than Enver Hoxha: this theory, among others, was well-received among non-Albanian scholars (Paul Kretchmer, G. Mayer, H. Pedersen, Tagliviani), so this Enver Hoxha thing does not hold any water. Truth be told, in Yugoslavia when nationalism reared its ugly head, Serbian scholars held various conferences to disprove/belittle or obfuscate the Illyrian origin of ALbanians. Yet, there were a descent number of other impartial scholars who did not switch their positions. For instance, Aleksander Stipcevic sets out his remarkable book 'The Illyrians-History and Culture', (Noyes Press, English translation by Stojana Čulić Burton) as following:



    Are you suggesting that Enver Hoxha's agents just sneaked out and bribed scholars in Yugoslavia?

    John Wilkes, one of the leading authorities in regards with Illyrian studies, asserts that:



    The Albanian language, which, according to John Wilkes again "has a distinctive vocabulary, morphology and phonetic rules which have engaged the attention of many philologists, of whom several have confidently proclaimed its origin from ancient Illyrian."
    You didn't read.

    I gave source:

    Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen,

    Albanian Identities: Myth and History

    Indiana State University, US

    Of course, such sources there are a lot. Scientists know that myth about "Illyrian origin of Albanians" was Enver Hoxha's state project. But if you want, you can write to the authors why they argue that Enver Hoxha declared that Albanian origin is Illyrian and that among Albanian scholars nobody dared to question what Enver Hoxha declared.

    ...

    About John Wilkes, you didn't read too, it is this author claims that Bosnians and arrounding people are Illyrians, not Albanians.

    According Wilkes's research, skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries shows differences between Illyrians and Albanians. Albanians and Illyrians are were two physically different groups. Wilkes: "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to define an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians."

    Wilkes has been proven correct by science when Y-DNA of European populations confirmed that the majority of contemporary Albanians do not share I2a, R1a and R1b (excepting R1b ht35, Armenian haplotype) which are an Illyrian or any Indo-European linneage. John Wilkes puts Illyrian descendants among contemporary ex-Yugoslav people, centered around Montenegro and Bosnia and branching out into Dalmatia and western Serbia. This area has concetration I2a haplogroup, which is missing in Albanians. Wilkes hints that ex-Yugoslav people are slavicized Illyrians.

    In linguistic Wilkes speaks about Centum and Satem division. Wilkes discusses problem linking Illyrian and Albanian because these two languages are mutually exclussive, Illyrian is Centum and Albanian is Satem.

    Read this book. Keep in mind that no one Albanian scholar couldn't deny Wilkes. After Wilkes Illyrian origin of the Albanians was quiet.

    In other hand Y-DNA suggests that Illyrians could have I2a haplogroup, this haplogroup is main in Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    You didn't read.

    I gave source:

    Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen,

    Albanian Identities: Myth and History

    Indiana State University, US

    Of course, such sources there are a lot. Scientists know that myth about "Illyrian origin of Albanians" was Enver Hoxha's state project. But if you want, you can write to the authors why they argue that Enver Hoxha declared that Albanian origin is Illyrian and that among Albanian scholars nobody dared to question what Enver Hoxha declared.

    ...

    About John Wilkes, you didn't read too, it is this author claims that Bosnians and arrounding people are Illyrians, not Albanians.

    According Wilkes's research, skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries shows differences between Illyrians and Albanians. Albanians and Illyrians are were two physically different groups. Wilkes: "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to define an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians."

    Wilkes has been proven correct by science when Y-DNA of European populations confirmed that the majority of contemporary Albanians do not share I2a, R1a and R1b (excepting R1b ht35, Armenian haplotype) which are an Illyrian or any Indo-European linneage. John Wilkes puts Illyrian descendants among contemporary ex-Yugoslav people, centered around Montenegro and Bosnia and branching out into Dalmatia and western Serbia. This area has concetration I2a haplogroup, which is missing in Albanians. Wilkes hints that ex-Yugoslav people are slavicized Illyrians.

    In linguistic Wilkes speaks about Centum and Satem division. Wilkes discusses problem linking Illyrian and Albanian because these two languages are mutually exclussive, Illyrian is Centum and Albanian is Satem.

    Read this book. Keep in mind that no one Albanian scholar couldn't deny Wilkes. After Wilkes Illyrian origin of the Albanians was quiet.

    In other hand Y-DNA suggests that Illyrians could have I2a haplogroup, this haplogroup is main in Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats.
    You are trying to connect Illyrians with south Slavic people.
    I'm trying to figure out why South Slavics are ashamed of their ancestry? Its nothing wrong according to me of being a Slav.
    Slavs are another European people with their own merits and wrongs as any other people of Europe. No people of Europe are perfect. Even Countries like Germany and England and France, with advanced cultural and economic development have had their dark moments in history. No one is perfect. But the insistence of Slavs to connect with Illyrians shows that they suffer an inferior complexity. Suppose what you are saying is true. Slavs of the Balkans are connected with Illyrians. Will you inherit the cultural and territorial legacy of Illyrians? No one with the right mind will give a Slavic speaking, Slavic looking the credentials of an ancient people of the Ballkans. Look how the Macedonian Slavs are becoming the but of the jokes with their efforts to look the hair of an ancient people. Old Macedonians were a separate ethnicity that have disappeared. They conquered Greece. Had no ethnic connections with Greeks.
    My advice to you! Serbs are not hairs of Illyrians in any form or shape. The only one that can claim are Dalmatians,( not all Croats) and Bosnians. Through claiming Illyrian ancestry you degrade your own true ancestry unfairly. Regardless the deficiencies of your ancestry it does not make you worse or better than any other European Ethnic group.
    My advice to you: Be proud of your Slavic ancestry. Illyrians have another owners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    You are trying to connect Illyrians with south Slavic people.
    I'm trying to figure out why South Slavics are ashamed of their ancestry? Its nothing wrong according to me of being a Slav.
    Slavs are another European people with their own merits and wrongs as any other people of Europe. No people of Europe are perfect. Even Countries like Germany and England and France, with advanced cultural and economic development have had their dark moments in history. No one is perfect. But the insistence of Slavs to connect with Illyrians shows that they suffer an inferior complexity. Suppose what you are saying is true. Slavs of the Balkans are connected with Illyrians. Will you inherit the cultural and territorial legacy of Illyrians? No one with the right mind will give a Slavic speaking, Slavic looking the credentials of an ancient people of the Ballkans. Look how the Macedonian Slavs are becoming the but of the jokes with their efforts to look the hair of an ancient people. Old Macedonians were a separate ethnicity that have disappeared. They conquered Greece. Had no ethnic connections with Greeks.
    My advice to you! Serbs are not hairs of Illyrians in any form or shape. The only one that can claim are Dalmatians,( not all Croats) and Bosnians. Through claiming Illyrian ancestry you degrade your own true ancestry unfairly. Regardless the deficiencies of your ancestry it does not make you worse or better than any other European Ethnic group.
    My advice to you: Be proud of your Slavic ancestry. Illyrians have another owners.
    I spoke about book by Wilkes which is not favorable for those who think that the Illyrians have a connection with the Albanians.

    If someone reads Wilkes's book, although Y-DNA is not subject, he or she can derive conclusion that Illyrians could be I2a, R1a or R1b carriers, not E or J carriers.

    I will not enter here which haplogroups Illyrians belonged, Maciamo wrote about it if someone wants he or she can read:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-amp-Illyrians

    And Western Serbs, you can see maps of Serbia throughout history. Wilkes precise describes Illyrian territory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    I spoke about book by Wilkes which is not favorable for those who think that the Illyrians have a connection with the Albanians.

    If someone reads Wilkes's book, although Y-DNA is not subject, he or she can derive conclusion that Illyrians could be I2a, R1a or R1b carriers, not E or J carriers.

    I will not enter here which haplogroups Illyrians belonged, Maciamo wrote about it if someone wants he or she can read:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-amp-Illyrians

    And Western Serbs, you can see maps of Serbia throughout history. Wilkes precise describes Illyrian territory.
    As you citing Wilkes: Among others he says that " Albanians are dark and short". Have you been to Kosovo? Who is taller in general, Serbs or Kosovans? Would you agree with me that an average Kosovan is at least 10 cm taller than a Serb? Kosovans are Illyrians too, don't forget that!
    Would you agree that Albanians in general are dark? Since his strongest argument to prove that Albanians are short and dark is a lie, would you believe what he has to say further?
    Suppose that he was not sponsored by circles connected with South Slavs, how did he know that Illyrians were white? Where did he find that source?
    Illyrian origin of Albanians was not discovered by Albanians. Albanians because of Ottoman conquest had very faint conscious who they were. Most thought of themselves as Ottomans. It was Swedish linguists who discovered the fact first followed by Austrians and Germans. That's why even though Albanians did not have a major power to support them in 1912 was given independence.
    Now, suppose Wilkes was not sponsored by Slavic circles. He wrote his book reading among others Slavic sources that were fiercely anti Albanian. Is not a possibility that he has gotten it all wrong?
    Finally, who is Wilkes? He could be a provocateur to make his book sound different in order to sell it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    I spoke about book by Wilkes which is not favorable for those who think that the Illyrians have a connection with the Albanians.

    If someone reads Wilkes's book, although Y-DNA is not subject, he or she can derive conclusion that Illyrians could be I2a, R1a or R1b carriers, not E or J carriers.

    I will not enter here which haplogroups Illyrians belonged, Maciamo wrote about it if someone wants he or she can read:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-amp-Illyrians

    And Western Serbs, you can see maps of Serbia throughout history. Wilkes precise describes Illyrian territory.

    About Wilkes again: You wander why Albanians are not challenging or discrediting Wilkes?
    Albanians have no identity crisis! They know that the few Illyrian toponims that have survived are words that Albs still use everyday. They know for sure where the words of the language Albs use came from. Generally is accepted Illyrian origin of Albs from the serious academics of Europe. The one who do not believe it for ill purposes or scientific doubts are in their own god given wrights but their doubts do not translate in them being wright. The genetics so far is in Albs side. E-v13, J2b are proof of an early farmers population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    You didn't read.

    I gave source:

    Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen,

    Albanian Identities: Myth and History

    Indiana State University, US

    Of course, such sources there are a lot. Scientists know that myth about "Illyrian origin of Albanians" was Enver Hoxha's state project. But if you want, you can write to the authors why they argue that Enver Hoxha declared that Albanian origin is Illyrian and that among Albanian scholars nobody dared to question what Enver Hoxha declared.

    ...

    About John Wilkes, you didn't read too, it is this author claims that Bosnians and arrounding people are Illyrians, not Albanians.

    According Wilkes's research, skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries shows differences between Illyrians and Albanians. Albanians and Illyrians are were two physically different groups. Wilkes: "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to define an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians."

    Wilkes has been proven correct by science when Y-DNA of European populations confirmed that the majority of contemporary Albanians do not share I2a, R1a and R1b (excepting R1b ht35, Armenian haplotype) which are an Illyrian or any Indo-European linneage. John Wilkes puts Illyrian descendants among contemporary ex-Yugoslav people, centered around Montenegro and Bosnia and branching out into Dalmatia and western Serbia. This area has concetration I2a haplogroup, which is missing in Albanians. Wilkes hints that ex-Yugoslav people are slavicized Illyrians.

    In linguistic Wilkes speaks about Centum and Satem division. Wilkes discusses problem linking Illyrian and Albanian because these two languages are mutually exclussive, Illyrian is Centum and Albanian is Satem.

    Read this book. Keep in mind that no one Albanian scholar couldn't deny Wilkes. After Wilkes Illyrian origin of the Albanians was quiet.

    In other hand Y-DNA suggests that Illyrians could have I2a haplogroup, this haplogroup is main in Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats.
    I honestly hate to respond to your type, but I guess someone has to counter the constant Serbian propaganda machines like yourself, Milan, Ike and few other blabbering morons. That Albanian descent from Illyrians was coined centuries before Hoxha was born, so please stop making a fool out of yourself.

    I can see that you haven’t read Wilkes book, and that part that all Serbs like to copy and paste in every board is taken out of context. Most importantly though, without dwelling much into it, Albanians are not short and dark skinned. We have Coon, the father of anthropology, which we can certainly rely on his data regarding Albanians anthropologically, has to say this about Albanians and Illyrians:
    Illyrians:
    In Bosnia, we come to the famous site of Glasinac, 21 where a comparatively large series of relatively late Illyrian remains contains again a mixture of types. The majority of the skulls are long headed and these show the same mixture of Danubian and Corded elements which we have already seen at Hallstatt itself. A few of the individual crania are very large, and reproduce the Corded prototype quite accurately. The brachycephalic skulls, although in the minority, are numerous enough to permit one to determine their racial affiliation with some accuracy. Almost all belong to what might be called a modern Dinaric racial type. The skulls are moderately large with flattened occiputs, straight side walls, rather broad foreheads, and a very prominent nose, in the one instance in which the nasal bones were preserved. 22 The jaws are very broad with an excessive bigonial diameter, but not noted for their depth.
    Albanians:
    Almost all of the Ghegs are light-skinned, with the von Luschan #3 and 7 most frequently represented. Freckling, common in Montenegro, is rare here; what little there is is confined almost entirely to the tribes nearest Old Montenegro, and here it reaches but 5 per cent. The head hair is usually brunet, with black or near black reaching 40 per cent, and dark to medium brown 45 per cent. Light brown or blond hair, which is almost always on the golden or slightly rufous side, accounts for the other 15 per cent. Only two men out of 1100 were found to have ash-blond hair. As in Montenegro, the beards are much lighter than the head hair; the black contingent is reduced to 6 per cent, while 36 per cent are reddish brown or auburn, 3 per cent red, and 30 per cent golden blond or light brown with a golden tinge. The rufous tendency, while not as pronounced as in parts of Montenegro, exists to the virtual exclusion of ash-blondism. Regionally, the darkest hair is found in Mirdita and in the eastern border; the lightest in the west and south.
    At this point there arises the entire question of Dinaric origins, which may be approached on the basis of a statistical analysis of the Gheg material. Attempts to intercorrelate metrical and morphological characters with each other and with pigmentation reveal the presence of the following types in Ghegnia, each of which shows a tendency for the characters of which it is composed to associate themselves as a unit.

    1. A tall, large-headed, brachycephalic, wide-faced type, with intermediate pigmentation, and an especial tendency toward rufosity. This is the Borreby-like type prevalent in Montenegro; in Albania it is almost wholly confined to the tribe of Malsia ë Madhë, and within that tribe is concentrated in the bairak of Gruda.
    2. A medium-statured, brachycephalic, short-faced type, with mixed pigmentation, which is fundamentally Alpine. It is found in all tribes, but is commonest in the refuge area of Mirdita.
    3. A tall, dolichocephalic or mesocephalic type with dark hair and dark brown eyes, a straight nasal profile, and a tendency toward a lesser leptorrhiny than the total group. This is an Atlanto-Mediterranean racial type which is also prevalent in other Balkan countries. It may also be sorted out of available statistical series of Greeks, while it is common in Bulgaria and easily distinguishable among Serbs. It, or a similar type, also occurs with Dinarics in northern Italy and the Tyrol. In northern Albania it is commonest in Malsia Jakovës and Dukagin.
    4. A very strongly differentiated type which is characterized by medium stature, exceptional brachycephaly, great narrowness and convexity of the nose, a high incidence of occipital flattening, and a tendency to light brown eye color in combination with dark brown hair. This type may be called Dinaric in the full or specific sense; most of the other Ghegs are Dinarics in a partial or a general sense. This ultra-Dinaric type is commonest in the tribe of Dibra.
    5. A blond, brachycephalic, convex-nosed Noric, of standard type. It is commonest in Zadrima.
    6. A few light brown-haired Nordics, centered in Luma.
    Someone with half a brain that understands anthropology can see that Illyrians found at Glasinac don't differ much from modern Albanians.


    Genetics actually are not on your side either, why you decide to include them in this debate about linguistics is beyond me. They indeed confirm just that, that we in fact pre-dated most nationalities in Balkans, and have been here at least since bronze age (E-V13, J2b2 and R1b L23), but of course you half brained dimwit are not able to understand it. R1a, specifically the M458, which is found in good numbers today among the Balkan Slavs is in fact recent intruder to this region, just like I2a Dinaric is (R1a peaking in Poland while the I2a Dinaric having the father clade also in Poland). The I2a that peaks today among Slavs is very young in age, and just like I mentioned, the father clade found in Poland couldn't be Illyrian. Illyrians were waging wars and forming kingdoms when this specific clade wasn't even born! As for L23 that is found among us and makes about 20% of our y-dna, that you specify as “Armenian”, in fact majority belongs to BY611 which is also known as the “Balkan cluster”, makes its own branch within CTS9219.

    I will say this again, please halfwit, when you are unable to understand nor to comprehend what is presented in front of you, don’t participate in such threads. You should in fact be preoccupied with you own shady history and ancestry, and find out from where the hell from you came to the Balkans rather than waste energy on Albanians.
    Last edited by Skerdilaidas; 20-12-15 at 09:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Please explain your theory on this Illyrian connection because Albania has less than 10% of ancient illyrian lands, it actually has 40% of ancient Epirote lands. With the Albanian government deciding in 1960 that the true Albanian language is Tosk and from this point , Tosk being the ONLY albanian dialect used in schools to this day, can only be from the conclusion that Albanians are more "greek" epirote than illyrian.

    The bulk of illyrian mix is with the Bosnians and Croatians , while Slovenians and Montenegrins are either the same as Albanians or slightly more.
    The Serbs have no illyrian mix, they have a thracian mix
    Well, since we are at the end of the year, we can say that this post win the competition as the most idiot post of the year.

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