Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

[Garrick]

I honestly hate to respond to your type, but I guess someone has to counter the constant Serbian propaganda machines like yourself, Milan, Ike and few other blabbering morons. That Albanian descent from Illyrians was coined centuries before Hoxha was born, so please stop making a fool out of yourself.

I can see that you haven’t read Wilkes book, and that part that all Serbs like to copy and paste in every board is taken out of context. Most importantly though, without dwelling much into it, Albanians are not short and dark skinned. We have Coon, the father of anthropology, which we can certainly rely on his data regarding Albanians anthropologically, has to say this about Albanians and Illyrians:



Someone with half a brain that understands anthropology can see that Illyrians found at Glasinac don't differ much from modern Albanians.


Genetics actually are not on your side either, why you decide to include them in this debate about linguistics is beyond me. They indeed confirm just that, that we in fact pre-dated most nationalities in Balkans, and have been here at least since bronze age (E-V13, J2b2 and R1b L23), but of course you half brained dimwit are not able to understand it. R1a, specifically the M458, which is found in good numbers today among the Balkan Slavs is in fact recent intruder to this region, just like I2a Dinaric is (R1a peaking in Poland while the I2a Dinaric having the father clade also in Poland). The I2a that peaks today among Slavs is very young in age, and just like I mentioned, the father clade found in Poland couldn't be Illyrian. Illyrians were waging wars and forming kingdoms when this specific clade wasn't even born! As for L23 that is found among us and makes about 20% of our y-dna, that you specify as “Armenian”, in fact majority belongs to BY611 which is also known as the “Balkan cluster”, makes its own branch within CTS9219.

I will say this again, please halfwit, when you are unable to understand nor to comprehend what is presented in front of you, don’t participate in such threads. You should in fact be preoccupied with you own shady history and ancestry, and find out from where the hell from you came to the Balkans rather than waste energy on Albanians.

Yes, because I give facts, it is the easiest way to attempt to insult, but that has nothing with true.

Wilkes is very unfavorable for Albanians and Albanian scholars know it, I will give pages and pages of Wilkes's book, of course not exaggerating, respecting copyrights.

...
About haplogroups: E and J, main Albanian haplogroups, were not Illyrian main haplogroups.

I gave what Maciamo wrote, if you have something against it, or maybe some new information, you can contact Mr. Maciamo.
...

Here is main problem what I gave citation from the book:

Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen Fischer,
Albanian Identities: Myth and History
Indiana State University, US

But authors know about what they are talking. Every Albanian scholar who denied that Illyrians and Albanians have links had problems. You know what dictators do when someone is opposed to what dictator proclaimed.

For example Albanian dissident Fatos Lubonja observes that the Albanian and Illyrian link was created in order to establish a myth of Albanian antiquity in the Balkans.

Fatos Lubonja is Albanian, he opposed the myth created by Enver Hoxha.

Biography:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatos_Lubonja

...
Fatos Lubonja wrote:

"The main myths created by those who were the so-called 'men of the Albanian renaissance' (rilindja), who nourished Albanian national romanticism, are typical myths of European romanticism of the 19th century, creating the pride in Albanians of being a unique people. Among the main myths are those exalting the antiquity of the Albanian people and Albanian as one of the oldest languages. Since it was necessary to distinguish the Albanians from the Greeks and Slavs - even to stress their superiority - the origin of the Albanian people, which, according to mythology, were the inhabitants of the Balkans before Greeks, later the Pellasgians were replaced by the Illyrians. Consequently, the myths of the great Albanian men of antiquity were created, among whom the most distinguished were Alexander the Great and Pirro of Epirus."

...
What we can see here. This Albanian intelectual (who opposed the dictator Hoxha) gives reasons why for Hoxha were necessary Pelasgian and Illyrian myth, and other myths.

...
It is needed critical thinking. Repeat like parrots that Albanians are descedants of Illyrians leads nowhere, because hard evidence says different. It is significant to point that there are people like Lubonja among Albanians who think critically and do not adopt a priori fictions and myths.

[DuPidh]

Please explain your theory on this Illyrian connection because Albania has less than 10% of ancient illyrian lands, it actually has 40% of ancient Epirote lands. With the Albanian government deciding in 1960 that the true Albanian language is Tosk and from this point , Tosk being the ONLY albanian dialect used in schools to this day, can only be from the conclusion that Albanians are more "greek" epirote than illyrian.

The bulk of illyrian mix is with the Bosnians and Croatians , while Slovenians and Montenegrins are either the same as Albanians or slightly more.
The Serbs have no illyrian mix, they have a thracian mix

In my Opinion the Dalmatians, (Not all Croatians) and Muslim Bosnians have the majority of their ethnic make up from Illyrians. Even today a Dalmatian will emphasize its Geographic location as a place of origin, than Croatia as the state where they belong. Also Bosnians are mostly of Illyrian stock. But they can not be the lawful inheritors of Illyrian legacy since they have lost the cultural element that made them Illyrians. So this 10% of Illyrian territory we call today Albanians inherit major cultural and ethnic elements of Illyrian population and as a result we claim them as us.
I don't think a Croatian will feel good if you tell them you have nothing to do with Slavs.
Personally I wold not oppose if a Muslim Bosnian will call himself an Illyrian.

[Skerdilaidas]

Yes, because I give facts, it is the easiest way to attempt to insult, but that has nothing with true.

Wilkes is very unfavorable for Albanians and Albanian scholars know it, I will give pages and pages of Wilkes's book, of course not exaggerating, respecting copyrights.

...
About haplogroups: E and J, main Albanian haplogroups, were not Illyrian main haplogroups.

I gave what Maciamo wrote, if you have something against it, or maybe some new information, you can contact Mr. Maciamo.
...

Here is main problem what I gave citation from the book:

Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen Fischer,
Albanian Identities: Myth and History
Indiana State University, US

But authors know about what they are talking. Every Albanian scholar who denied that Illyrians and Albanians have links had problems. You know what dictators do when someone is opposed to what dictator proclaimed.

For example Albanian dissident Fatos Lubonja observes that the Albanian and Illyrian link was created in order to establish a myth of Albanian antiquity in the Balkans.

Fatos Lubonja is Albanian, he opposed the myth created by Enver Hoxha.

Biography:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatos_Lubonja

...
Fatos Lubonja wrote:

"The main myths created by those who were the so-called 'men of the Albanian renaissance' (rilindja), who nourished Albanian national romanticism, are typical myths of European romanticism of the 19th century, creating the pride in Albanians of being a unique people. Among the main myths are those exalting the antiquity of the Albanian people and Albanian as one of the oldest languages. Since it was necessary to distinguish the Albanians from the Greeks and Slavs - even to stress their superiority - the origin of the Albanian people, which, according to mythology, were the inhabitants of the Balkans before Greeks, later the Pellasgians were replaced by the Illyrians. Consequently, the myths of the great Albanian men of antiquity were created, among whom the most distinguished were Alexander the Great and Pirro of Epirus."

...
What we can see here. This Albanian intelectual (who opposed the dictator Hoxha) gives reasons why for Hoxha were necessary Pelasgian and Illyrian myth, and other myths.

...
It is needed critical thinking. Repeat like parrots that Albanians are descedants of Illyrians leads nowhere, because hard evidence says different. It is significant to point that there are people like Lubonja among Albanians who think critically and do not adopt a priori fictions and myths.

^^ The squeal that Abeis was talking about. When he is presented with evidence and facts, and can't debate them any further, he loses control and doesn't remember what we were talking about. Posts a controversial journalist to further ridicule himself on debate about linguistics, anthropology and genetics.


I will remind you again you ridiculous caricature, this thread is not about Enver Hoxha and his deeds.

[Abeis]

^^ The squeal that Abeis was talking about. When he is presented with evidence and facts, and can't debate them any further, he loses control and doesn't remember what we were talking about. Posts a controversial journalist to further ridicule himself on debate about linguistics, anthropology and genetics.

Let them be, Skerdilaidas! Its glaringly clear that these conceited halfwits (garrick and milan, which probably are the same person) are nowhere to offer any substantial opinion. at its best, all they can do is a sloppy work of selective quotes in line what they're anxious to hear. The height of irony was when these kids accused me of not reading Wilkes book while I got it right into my hands. It's a moot point trying to point the obvious as it would be ignored anyway. these repulsive ignorants throw words around without the flimsiest ideas of what they mean, just causing everyone to yawn. How infuriating, not to say obnoxious. I'll provide again the same conclusions hammered home by Wilkes:





and another excerpt from Noel Malcolm, a highly acclaimed authority on medieval history of Kosova, who did a truly impeccable piece of work, asserts:



P.S: That thing with Fatos Lubonja is like the cherry on top of the cake. Citing an average journalist who is neither adept nor competent to talks upon such subjects, gives me a pain in the butt

[LABERIA]

Ok Abeis, but if Noel Malcolm is an spy of Enver Hoxha? You have to take in consideration this.

[Sile]

In my Opinion the Dalmatians, (Not all Croatians) and Muslim Bosnians have the majority of their ethnic make up from Illyrians. Even today a Dalmatian will emphasize its Geographic location as a place of origin, than Croatia as the state where they belong. Also Bosnians are mostly of Illyrian stock. But they can not be the lawful inheritors of Illyrian legacy since they have lost the cultural element that made them Illyrians. So this 10% of Illyrian territory we call today Albanians inherit major cultural and ethnic elements of Illyrian population and as a result we claim them as us.
I don't think a Croatian will feel good if you tell them you have nothing to do with Slavs.
Personally I wold not oppose if a Muslim Bosnian will call himself an Illyrian.

When the slavs arrived, they did not find the lands empty of people.

as noted in historical fact by historians , the delmatae, ancestors of the dalmatians, only arrived on the coast of dalmatia not before 300BC, they where in inland Bosnia and pannonia.

It is very hard to see much illyrian in Albanians. Reading italian historians from the renaissance times about the area albania, they only ever mention the word Epiroti...................the questions keep coming back to ..........if Epirus was Greek then why was there greek colonies there instead of Epirus being part of the known ancient greek world?

And, Greeks always state the Epirotes where Barbarians, that term barbarians indicate a people that did not speak Greek

[Sile]

Well, since we are at the end of the year, we can say that this post win the competition as the most idiot post of the year.

your just upset because you are Gheg and that the Albanian Government for the last 50 years claims only Tosk Albanian are pure Albanians. There is no other reason why Gheg is being prevented from being taught in schools

[Garrick]

In my Opinion the Dalmatians, (Not all Croatians) and Muslim Bosnians have the majority of their ethnic make up from Illyrians. Even today a Dalmatian will emphasize its Geographic location as a place of origin, than Croatia as the state where they belong. Also Bosnians are mostly of Illyrian stock. But they can not be the lawful inheritors of Illyrian legacy since they have lost the cultural element that made them Illyrians. So this 10% of Illyrian territory we call today Albanians inherit major cultural and ethnic elements of Illyrian population and as a result we claim them as us.
I don't think a Croatian will feel good if you tell them you have nothing to do with Slavs.
Personally I wold not oppose if a Muslim Bosnian will call himself an Illyrian.

You might have noticed that I am personally very cautious on the subject of which haplogroup among Illyrians is dominant or at least to have a relative majority.

But it is little chance that E and J haplogroups were dominant among Illyrians.

They were people from the north, and their language was Centum. It is possible that haplogroups I2a1 and R1b (Italo Celtic) are better candidates in comparison with other. Yes Bosnians and Dalmatians (todays Muslim Bosniacs, Western Serbs and South Croats) are mostly I2a1 carriers, but Italo Celtic R1b is not frequent. Certainly there may be more reasons why R1b Italo Celtic is reduced in these areas, but maybe Illyrians were not to a significant extent R1b (Italo Celtic) carriers.

Today males (if we take data with Eupedia and number of inhabitants): about 1.170.000 in Serbia, 1.000.000 in Bosnia and Herzegovina (Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats), and 790.000 in Croatia have I2a1 haplogroup. If this haplogroup Illyrian marker? My personal opinion we have no enough knowledge. But it is possible, and further researches are needed. We know that I2a1 is Old European haplogroup and this haplogroup was found at the site Starcevo, Serbia (Starcevo culture is ancient civilization on the Danube river which dates back to 6000 BC).

I gave the threads which opened Maciamo:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-amp-Illyrians

I have given more thought about the origin of I2a-Din (L621>L147.2) and came to the following conclusion.

During the Mesolithic the I2a1 (P37.2) hunter-gatherers must have occupied a vast part of western, central and eastern Europe. Central and western European I2a1 lineages only survive at low frequencies in three newly identified subclades: L1286, L1294 and L880. The south-western M26 branch was absorbed by Neolithic farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture, whose descendants are found mostly in modern Sardinians and Basques.

The eastern branch, I2a1b (M423) were hunter-gatherers from the Carpathian region and/or from further north (Poland, Belarus, western Ukraine). Those in the Carpathian basin would have mixed with Middle Eastern Neolithic farmers and founded the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). The whole region from Romania to Poland would then have been absorbed by the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware culture (2900-2400 BCE).

After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.

The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples (I2a1b) and Indo-Europeans (R1a) sometime between 3000 and 1500 BCE.

The Illyrians, an IE tribe who conquered the territory of former Yugoslavia circa 1200-1000 BCE, might have been an offshoot from the Dacians or the Thracians, or a closely related tribe from the Carpathian basin.

...

What about E-V13 and J2b, if some of them could be Illyrian marker? Little chance even unbeliveable, but let Albanians to say why these haplogroups can be dominantly Illyrian.

[Garrick]

Let them be, Skerdilaidas! Its glaringly clear that these conceited halfwits (garrick and milan, which probably are the same person) are nowhere to offer any substantial opinion. at its best, all they can do is a sloppy work of selective quotes in line what they're anxious to hear. The height of irony was when these kids accused me of not reading Wilkes book while I got it right into my hands. It's a moot point trying to point the obvious as it would be ignored anyway. these repulsive ignorants throw words around without the flimsiest ideas of what they mean, just causing everyone to yawn. How infuriating, not to say obnoxious. I'll provide again the same conclusions hammered home by Wilkes:

and another excerpt from Noel Malcolm, a highly acclaimed authority on medieval history of Kosova, who did a truly impeccable piece of work, asserts:

P.S: That thing with Fatos Lubonja is like the cherry on top of the cake. Citing an average journalist who is neither adept nor competent to talks upon such subjects, gives me a pain in the butt

Not impressed. And you will see why Mr. Wilkes is not good for Albanians (and why Albanians try critique him), but there are other important things before we get to this. Here only that new literature, after Wilkes, is much more critical and claim that Illyrian and Albanian have no link, and Wilkes is partly responsible for it, after Wilkes nothing is the same.

Example, Bideleux and Jeffries analyze what Wilkes writes and conclude:

The Balkans: A Post-Communist History, 2007

"It is thus unlikely that there were major connections between ancient ‘Illyrian’ and modern Albanian"

"The modern-day Albanian language (like modern-day Armenian and Farsi) represents a distinct sub-category within the Indo-European family of languages, and over the centuries neighbouring countries naturally supplied many Latin, Turkish, Greek and Slavic ‘loan words’."

You can see, very important conclusion of Bideleux and Jeffries, it is unlikely that connection exists and Albanian is distinct subcategory within Indo-European family, it is not linked with Illyrian, or Paleo Balkan languages.

...
And not only Mr. Malcom, you can see in Serbia there were opinions that Illyrians and Albanians can be linked. They are mostly older sources. In the meantime science has progressed and today we know that assumptions never proven. It's living matter, you can see and genetic studies in next 15 years gave new knowledge.

Why are important Albanian intellectuals as Fatos Lubonja? Because among Albanians there are many who not succumbed official story that Albanians are linked with Illyrians, and I will give arguments more Albanian intellectuals. They are certainly brave people.

...
Several Albanians told me how every Serb thinks differently. Albanians are trying to reach a uniform opinion. It is difference between cultures, Serbs believe that diversity leads to the survival and prosperity, Albanians believe that it is uniformity. Of course, quite a different kind of leadership is required in Serbia in relation to Albania. I don't say what is better.

This I say because I have nothing with Milan, I don't know who is he, and he gives his opinion, what is his right, how I can notice he is thorough. But attempt to discredit one or another in this way is childish, although and it is contrary to the forum rules. I have already said, let everyone writes what he or she wants (if complies with the rules of forum), I want to hear what say Albanians, or Turks, or anybody else. Arguments are winning, no number or shouting of interlocutors.

[LABERIA]

your just upset because you are Gheg and that the Albanian Government for the last 50 years claims only Tosk Albanian are pure Albanians. There is no other reason why Gheg is being prevented from being taught in schools

Every Albanian having read what you wrote in this post will begin to laugh with you. Try to read something about Albania and Albanians, because you are becoming ridiculous. Try to have a minimum of knowledge on the issues you want to discuss.
Try to understand this first:
Dialectological_chart_of_Albanian.jpg

P.S.
I am not Geg. I am Lab and Laberia is heart of Toskeria. But first of all i am ALBANIAN.

[DuPidh]

When the slavs arrived, they did not find the lands empty of people.

as noted in historical fact by historians , the delmatae, ancestors of the dalmatians, only arrived on the coast of dalmatia not before 300BC, they where in inland Bosnia and pannonia.

It is very hard to see much illyrian in Albanians. Reading italian historians from the renaissance times about the area albania, they only ever mention the word Epiroti...................the questions keep coming back to ..........if Epirus was Greek then why was there greek colonies there instead of Epirus being part of the known ancient greek world?

And, Greeks always state the Epirotes where Barbarians, that term barbarians indicate a people that did not speak Greek

At the end of 5th century Ad there was dramatic change in Illyrian territories. Illyrians of Dalmacia, Croatia, Slovenia completely switched their language to latin. For Romans of that time they no longer were Illyrians. They were Romans. But still mountainous Albs kept their heavy latin influenced language and identity separate. Roman administration reorganized the territories in Epirus veta (old Epirus) and Epirus Nova (new Epirus) what were Albanian speaking territories. At this time the Emperors of Rome were Illyrians (Alb) and they did not distinguish the population in Epiroti and Illyrians as the early Romans did.

[Sile]

At the end of 5th century Ad there was dramatic change in Illyrian territories. Illyrians of Dalmacia, Croatia, Slovenia completely switched their language to latin. For Romans of that time they no longer were Illyrians. They were Romans. But still mountainous Albs kept their heavy latin influenced language and identity separate. Roman administration reorganized the territories in Epirus veta (old Epirus) and Epirus Nova (new Epirus) what were Albanian speaking territories. At this time the Emperors of Rome were Illyrians (Alb) and they did not distinguish the population in Epiroti and Illyrians as the early Romans did.

by the 5th century AD , there was no Roman......illyricum was settled by ostrogoths

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrog...ic_Kingdom.png
The rise of the Huns around 370 overwhelmed the Gothic kingdoms.^[18] Many of the Goths migrated into Roman territory in the Balkans, while others remained north of the Danube under Hunnic rule.

[Sile]

Every Albanian having read what you wrote in this post will begin to laugh with you. Try to read something about Albania and Albanians, because you are becoming ridiculous. Try to have a minimum of knowledge on the issues you want to discuss.
Try to understand this first:
Dialectological_chart_of_Albanian.jpg

P.S.
I am not Geg. I am Lab and Laberia is heart of Toskeria. But first of all i am ALBANIAN.

so you originate from ancient Epirus being a tosk .........good for you

[DuPidh]

your just upset because you are Gheg and that the Albanian Government for the last 50 years claims only Tosk Albanian are pure Albanians. There is no other reason why Gheg is being prevented from being taught in schools

In fact its a huge loss the negligence of Gheg dialect. Some of the best Alb literary work is in Gheg. I wish Albs should have maintained both dialects. But Albs were trying to unify that half nation given to them by big powers. To do so Albs had a congress who approved their Latin based alphabet ( a beautiful, easy, phonetic alphabet that kids learn in 2 months to read and write). They had to produce the books, so they could not have books in two dialects, that's why was decided to drop one. Decision was taken by linguists of the time. It could not be said that Hoxha did not influence the decision. Now 50 yrs after that decision to drop one dialect was taken Albs significantly have unified their language.

[DuPidh]

by the 5th century AD , there was no Roman......illyricum was settled by ostrogoths

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrog...ic_Kingdom.png
The rise of the Huns around 370 overwhelmed the Gothic kingdoms.^[18] Many of the Goths migrated into Roman territory in the Balkans, while others remained north of the Danube under Hunnic rule.

There was Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire. Albs were part of East. Huns raided Constantinople. Alb territories were largely unaffected by Huns. After 5 century ad Roman empire was terminated.

[LABERIA]

Nicholas Hammond was an philhellene, of course not under the influence of Enver Hoxha.
https://books.google.al/books?id=O9s...lt&redir_esc=y
Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas


Albanian Ethnogenesis

The Albanian is by habit and instinct a mountaineer, and the heart of Albania has always beaten most strongly in the tangle of very high mountains in the north of the country. That area has been impenetrable to many foreign armies, and its inhabitants have governed themselves and observed their own laws without paying much regard to the rulers of the lowlands; whether Greek, Roman, Turkish or Italian. The laws were traditional, and they were not written down until recently. The Albanians themselves say that their laws were codified, if one may use that word of oral composition, in the fifteenth century by Lek Dukagjini, and that he was an older contemporary and friend of George Skanderbeg (1403-67), the leader of the heroic resistance against the all-conquering Turks. The achievement of Lek Dukagjmi was not to invent laws but to organise the traditional ones of the numerous tribes of the northern part of the country - his own home into a consistent system of law, and to persuade the tribes to adopt it. Since that time the laws have been handed down separately in tribes and in families by oral tradition; and the fact that they still belong recognisably to a codified system is a testimony to the accuracy and strength of an oral transmission, which continued until the mid-twentieth century, when ideological revolutions replaced the code of Lek Dukagjini with that of Enver Hoxha and his colleagues.
In the 1930s the Albanians of the modern state of Albania were only a portion of those who spoke Albanian. Quite apart from the emigrants in Egypt, America and elsewhere, there were large groups of Albanian-speakers in Greece, Italy and Yugoslavia. The most interesting are those who were indigenous to the country but were included in south-western Yugoslavia by the drawing of the frontier in 1912-13.
They have remained completely Albanian in the pre-war sense of the word, retaining their traditional customs and living close to the subsistence level in the hilly country, for instance to the north of Ochrid, where I talked with the peasants of Gorice.
What united this plethora of often warring families and often warring tribes as Albanians was a love of their land, a sense of family unity vis-a-vis Serbs, Bulgars, Greeks and Italians, and a unique language, which belongs, like Greek and Latin, to the Indo-European group of languages but is at a primitive stage of development. This language may be the direct descendant of the Illyrian language, which was spoken by the inhabitants of the north-western part of the Balkans from early in the second millennium B.C. down to the collapse of the Roman Empire If so, it provides an analogy to the survival of Greek today as the direct descendant of Mycenaean Greek. But the purely linguistic evidence is scanty, because the Illyrians were illiterate, and there are not enough toponyms and personal names to convince the specialists in the linguistic field. But on a broader consideration, the inaccessibility of the mountains of northern Albania, the extreme conservatism of Albanian life and customs until recently, and the arrested development of the Albanian language are strongly in favour of the view that the Shqiptars, as they call themselves (7), are the linear descendants of the tribes of the northwest Balkans to which the Greeks and the Romans gave the general name 'Illyrians'.

In the fifth and sixth centuries A.D. 'lllyricum', the Roman province of the northwest Balkans which began in the south with Scodra, was a very important part of the Empire, because it provided good soldiers and leading emperors such as Diocletian and Justinian.
For almost half a millennium we know nothing of Epirus Nova except that it suffered from terrible earthquakes and was overrun repeatedly by barbarian invaders who came from north of the Danube. In 1081 even more formidable invaders landed on its coast, the Normans (or the Franks, as the Greeks called them) of the First Crusade, and they conquered and occupied Epirus Nova, while the Byzantine emperor, Alexius, withdrew to concentrate his forces at Ochrid. It was in these circumstances that a region ‘Albania' was first mentioned in literature, namely in the Norman French of the great epic, the Chanson de Roland, composed c. 1082-84. The place-names of Epirus Nova were reproduced in a French form or in a Biblical form: the river Charzanes (modern Arzen) appeared as Cheriant (line 3208) ; the river Mati (the modern name) as Val ('river' in the Chanson) Marchis, Mari or Morois; the ancient Oricus as Jericho; the modern Kanina as Chanmeis and so on. One line of the Chanson, 3255, gives what were probably the limits of Epirus Nova on the coast for the Crusaders as ‘Baile' (Cape Pale north of Dyrrachium) and 'Glos’ (Cape Glossa). Now another manuscript (CV7) gives not these names but 'd'Albanie et de Kent’ in order to convey the same meaning, thus it follows that 'Albanie' was inland of Cape Pale, for 'Kent' (Kanina) was inland of Cape Glossa (9). Again at line 3230 there is mention of Cape Pale, which appears in the best manuscript as 'Baile' and in other manuscripts as Paligea, Baligera, Balie, Balide, Baldise and in V7, as Albeigne. H. Gregoire and R. de Keyser, who were first to recognise that names of places in Epirus Nova were mentioned in the Chanson,(10) regarded all these readings as corruptions of 'Baile’ and in particular they said "V7 a corrompu Baile en Albeigne". Yet 'Albeigne' is so unlike the other versions and so remote from 'Baile' that it is most probably not a corruption at all but, precisely as in line 3255, a variant. If it is a variant of Baile (Cape Pale), ‘Albeigne' like "Albanie' is to be sought inland of Cape Pale.

The correct forms in Greek of the place-names in Epirus Nova were given some decades later by the Byzantine writers and among them by Anna Comnena, the daughter of the Emperor Alexius who had fought against the Crusaders. Thus, corresponding to 'Albanie' and 'Albeigne' was the form 'Arbanon' in Anna Comnena's history, which she completed in 1148. This 'Arbanon' was a mountain, since she wrote of passes and paths through it (13.5), and it lay somewhere between Dyrrachium and 'Deure' (Dibra) in the valley of the Black Drin. The most likely candidate is Mt Dajti, east of Cape Pale (now Rodoni). A plural form in the neuter gender was used by Anna Comnena at 4.8, where "Korniskortes set out from Arbana” (11). As in the case of the Acroceraunia' (sc. 'ore'), a mountainous area was being named ‘Arbana', i.e. Mt Dajti and Mali me Grope most probable.

From 1166 onwards the suffragan bishops of Dyrrachium included ''episcopi Albanenses, Arbanenses, Arbonenses" and even "Arbunenses"(12). As bishops were named not after a race but by a place, these bishops were in charge of a district 'Arbana', or something of the sort. The district was comparatively small, because we hear of suffragan bishops of 'Hunavia' and ‘Tzernikos' (Cermenike), which were situated, like Arbana, on the north side of the Via Egnatia (13). The seat of the diocese may have been a town called something like 'Arbanos’. We have two mentions of such a town: 'Albanopolis' or in a variant reading 'Albanos polis' in Ptolemy 3.12.20, writing in the second century A.D. and 'Albanos' in the company of the towns Achris (Ochrid), Prilapos (Prilep), and Dyrrachium in G. Acropolites 14, writing in the thirteenth century (14). The latter author mentioned also a district 'Albanon' as "a little beyond Dyrrachium," and as containing "difficult terrain" [14] and a fort known as 'Kroai' (49), now Kruje, on the western face of Mt Dajti.

The gap between Ptolemy and Acropolites is bridged by the mention of "Ducagini d'Arbania" in a seventh-century document at Ragusa (Dubrovnik). These Ducagini instigated a revolt against Byzantine rule in Bosnia and in particular at Ragusa, but they had to submit after the second unsuccessful intervention at Ragusa, to which they were said to have come "de terra ferma," i.e overland (15). The name 'Ducagini' is evidently derived from the Latin 'dux' and the common Albanian name 'Ghin'; indeed an Albanian chieftain in 1281 was referred to as "dux Ginius Tanuschus"(16). Moreover, the leading family of northern Albania from the thirteenth century to the Turkish invasion in the fifteenth century was called 'Dukagjin' (Lek Dukagjini the codifier was one of them), and their properties lay between Lesh (Lissus) and the bend of the Drin. It is here then that we should put the ‘Arbania' of the seventh century. The conclusion that 'Albanians' lived there continuously from the second century to the thirteenth century becomes, I think, unavoidable (17).

'Albanoi' as a people appeared first in Ptolemy 3.12.20. In his description of the Roman world, the southernmost part of the province Illyricum included Scodra, Lissus and Mt Scardus (Sar Planina); and, adjoining it the northernmost part of 'Macedonia' included the Taulantii (in the region of Tirana) and the Albani, in whose territory Ptolemy recorded one city only, Albanopolis or Albanos polis. Thus the Albani were a tribe in what we now call Central Albania, and they were an Illyrian-speaking tribe, like the more famous Taulantii, in the second century A.D. Men of this tribe appeared next in 1040, alongside some Epirotes (their neighbours on land) and some Italiotes (their neighbours across the sea), in the army of a rebellious general, George Maniakis. Two chieftains of this tribe, Demetrios and Ghin, pursued an independent policy in the early years of the thirteenth century.

[LABERIA]

so you originate from ancient Epirus being a tosk .........good for you

You are starting to learn something.

[Garrick]

Nicholas Hammond was an philhellene, of course not under the influence of Enver Hoxha.
https://books.google.al/books?id=O9s...lt&redir_esc=y
Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas


Albanian Ethnogenesis

The Albanian is by habit and instinct a mountaineer, and the heart of Albania has always beaten most strongly in the tangle of very high mountains in the north of the country. That area has been impenetrable to many foreign armies, and its inhabitants have governed themselves and observed their own laws without paying much regard to the rulers of the lowlands; whether Greek, Roman, Turkish or Italian. The laws were traditional, and they were not written down until recently. The Albanians themselves say that their laws were codified, if one may use that word of oral composition, in the fifteenth century by Lek Dukagjini, and that he was an older contemporary and friend of George Skanderbeg (1403-67), the leader of the heroic resistance against the all-conquering Turks. The achievement of Lek Dukagjmi was not to invent laws but to organise the traditional ones of the numerous tribes of the northern part of the country - his own home into a consistent system of law, and to persuade the tribes to adopt it. Since that time the laws have been handed down separately in tribes and in families by oral tradition; and the fact that they still belong recognisably to a codified system is a testimony to the accuracy and strength of an oral transmission, which continued until the mid-twentieth century, when ideological revolutions replaced the code of Lek Dukagjini with that of Enver Hoxha and his colleagues.
In the 1930s the Albanians of the modern state of Albania were only a portion of those who spoke Albanian. Quite apart from the emigrants in Egypt, America and elsewhere, there were large groups of Albanian-speakers in Greece, Italy and Yugoslavia. The most interesting are those who were indigenous to the country but were included in south-western Yugoslavia by the drawing of the frontier in 1912-13.
They have remained completely Albanian in the pre-war sense of the word, retaining their traditional customs and living close to the subsistence level in the hilly country, for instance to the north of Ochrid, where I talked with the peasants of Gorice.
What united this plethora of often warring families and often warring tribes as Albanians was a love of their land, a sense of family unity vis-a-vis Serbs, Bulgars, Greeks and Italians, and a unique language, which belongs, like Greek and Latin, to the Indo-European group of languages but is at a primitive stage of development. This language may be the direct descendant of the Illyrian language, which was spoken by the inhabitants of the north-western part of the Balkans from early in the second millennium B.C. down to the collapse of the Roman Empire If so, it provides an analogy to the survival of Greek today as the direct descendant of Mycenaean Greek. But the purely linguistic evidence is scanty, because the Illyrians were illiterate, and there are not enough toponyms and personal names to convince the specialists in the linguistic field. But on a broader consideration, the inaccessibility of the mountains of northern Albania, the extreme conservatism of Albanian life and customs until recently, and the arrested development of the Albanian language are strongly in favour of the view that the Shqiptars, as they call themselves (7), are the linear descendants of the tribes of the northwest Balkans to which the Greeks and the Romans gave the general name 'Illyrians'.

In the fifth and sixth centuries A.D. 'lllyricum', the Roman province of the northwest Balkans which began in the south with Scodra, was a very important part of the Empire, because it provided good soldiers and leading emperors such as Diocletian and Justinian.
For almost half a millennium we know nothing of Epirus Nova except that it suffered from terrible earthquakes and was overrun repeatedly by barbarian invaders who came from north of the Danube. In 1081 even more formidable invaders landed on its coast, the Normans (or the Franks, as the Greeks called them) of the First Crusade, and they conquered and occupied Epirus Nova, while the Byzantine emperor, Alexius, withdrew to concentrate his forces at Ochrid. It was in these circumstances that a region ‘Albania' was first mentioned in literature, namely in the Norman French of the great epic, the Chanson de Roland, composed c. 1082-84. The place-names of Epirus Nova were reproduced in a French form or in a Biblical form: the river Charzanes (modern Arzen) appeared as Cheriant (line 3208) ; the river Mati (the modern name) as Val ('river' in the Chanson) Marchis, Mari or Morois; the ancient Oricus as Jericho; the modern Kanina as Chanmeis and so on. One line of the Chanson, 3255, gives what were probably the limits of Epirus Nova on the coast for the Crusaders as ‘Baile' (Cape Pale north of Dyrrachium) and 'Glos’ (Cape Glossa). Now another manuscript (CV7) gives not these names but 'd'Albanie et de Kent’ in order to convey the same meaning, thus it follows that 'Albanie' was inland of Cape Pale, for 'Kent' (Kanina) was inland of Cape Glossa (9). Again at line 3230 there is mention of Cape Pale, which appears in the best manuscript as 'Baile' and in other manuscripts as Paligea, Baligera, Balie, Balide, Baldise and in V7, as Albeigne. H. Gregoire and R. de Keyser, who were first to recognise that names of places in Epirus Nova were mentioned in the Chanson,(10) regarded all these readings as corruptions of 'Baile’ and in particular they said "V7 a corrompu Baile en Albeigne". Yet 'Albeigne' is so unlike the other versions and so remote from 'Baile' that it is most probably not a corruption at all but, precisely as in line 3255, a variant. If it is a variant of Baile (Cape Pale), ‘Albeigne' like "Albanie' is to be sought inland of Cape Pale.

The correct forms in Greek of the place-names in Epirus Nova were given some decades later by the Byzantine writers and among them by Anna Comnena, the daughter of the Emperor Alexius who had fought against the Crusaders. Thus, corresponding to 'Albanie' and 'Albeigne' was the form 'Arbanon' in Anna Comnena's history, which she completed in 1148. This 'Arbanon' was a mountain, since she wrote of passes and paths through it (13.5), and it lay somewhere between Dyrrachium and 'Deure' (Dibra) in the valley of the Black Drin. The most likely candidate is Mt Dajti, east of Cape Pale (now Rodoni). A plural form in the neuter gender was used by Anna Comnena at 4.8, where "Korniskortes set out from Arbana” (11). As in the case of the Acroceraunia' (sc. 'ore'), a mountainous area was being named ‘Arbana', i.e. Mt Dajti and Mali me Grope most probable.

From 1166 onwards the suffragan bishops of Dyrrachium included ''episcopi Albanenses, Arbanenses, Arbonenses" and even "Arbunenses"(12). As bishops were named not after a race but by a place, these bishops were in charge of a district 'Arbana', or something of the sort. The district was comparatively small, because we hear of suffragan bishops of 'Hunavia' and ‘Tzernikos' (Cermenike), which were situated, like Arbana, on the north side of the Via Egnatia (13). The seat of the diocese may have been a town called something like 'Arbanos’. We have two mentions of such a town: 'Albanopolis' or in a variant reading 'Albanos polis' in Ptolemy 3.12.20, writing in the second century A.D. and 'Albanos' in the company of the towns Achris (Ochrid), Prilapos (Prilep), and Dyrrachium in G. Acropolites 14, writing in the thirteenth century (14). The latter author mentioned also a district 'Albanon' as "a little beyond Dyrrachium," and as containing "difficult terrain" [14] and a fort known as 'Kroai' (49), now Kruje, on the western face of Mt Dajti.

The gap between Ptolemy and Acropolites is bridged by the mention of "Ducagini d'Arbania" in a seventh-century document at Ragusa (Dubrovnik). These Ducagini instigated a revolt against Byzantine rule in Bosnia and in particular at Ragusa, but they had to submit after the second unsuccessful intervention at Ragusa, to which they were said to have come "de terra ferma," i.e overland (15). The name 'Ducagini' is evidently derived from the Latin 'dux' and the common Albanian name 'Ghin'; indeed an Albanian chieftain in 1281 was referred to as "dux Ginius Tanuschus"(16). Moreover, the leading family of northern Albania from the thirteenth century to the Turkish invasion in the fifteenth century was called 'Dukagjin' (Lek Dukagjini the codifier was one of them), and their properties lay between Lesh (Lissus) and the bend of the Drin. It is here then that we should put the ‘Arbania' of the seventh century. The conclusion that 'Albanians' lived there continuously from the second century to the thirteenth century becomes, I think, unavoidable (17).

'Albanoi' as a people appeared first in Ptolemy 3.12.20. In his description of the Roman world, the southernmost part of the province Illyricum included Scodra, Lissus and Mt Scardus (Sar Planina); and, adjoining it the northernmost part of 'Macedonia' included the Taulantii (in the region of Tirana) and the Albani, in whose territory Ptolemy recorded one city only, Albanopolis or Albanos polis. Thus the Albani were a tribe in what we now call Central Albania, and they were an Illyrian-speaking tribe, like the more famous Taulantii, in the second century A.D. Men of this tribe appeared next in 1040, alongside some Epirotes (their neighbours on land) and some Italiotes (their neighbours across the sea), in the army of a rebellious general, George Maniakis. Two chieftains of this tribe, Demetrios and Ghin, pursued an independent policy in the early years of the thirteenth century.

You can see, your sources are before 1990. I give sources after 2000. Things changed, and for example, among many authors, Wilkes has credits for it. Wilkes (1992) wrote: "They (Illyrians) spoke a language of which almost no trace has survived. That is belonged to the 'family' of Indo-European languages has been deduced from the many names of Illyrian peoples and places preserved in Greek and Latin records, both literary and epigraphic". Wilkes brought closer to us various tribes in Istria, Panonian plain, western Serbia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Montenegro, northern Albania. He claims that "Illyrians were not homogeneous ethnic entity". And according Wilkes: "Illyrians disappeared into the Roman Empire".

You can see authors who I gave, 1. Fortson, 2. Biddeleux and Jeffries, 3. Joseph et al., etc. all after 2000.

I didn't give citation for Fortson, here is:

Fortson, 2010 (2 ed.), 2004 (I ed.)
Indo-European language and culture: An introduction

"Two untestable hypotheses about Illyrian's connection to other languages are widely held: that Illyrian is same as or closely related to Messapic, and that Illyrian is the ancestor of Albanian. The first hypothesis is based on the close cultural connections between the Messapians and Illyrians, and on certain similarities between some linguistic elements. The second hypothesis has very little, if any, linguistic support, but makes geographic sense... The possible relationship to Messapic does not help, for the Messapic inscription evince no obvious similarities to Albanians."

What we see here. Author clearly says that hypothesis about link between Illyrian and Albanian practicaly has no linguistic support. What we can see else. Wilkes clearly gives territory of all Illyrians. No today's south Albania included, inhabitants of what today is south Albania never were Illyrians. And if we see geographical sense (what Fortson writes) it can be because Albanians could come to today's territory in some intervall in the time and considerably after dissapearing of Illyrians in Roman empire.

There is all the way, it is clearly that here all are wasting time, but someone tries to find what doesn't exist. What is good, Illyrians and Messapic can be linked, if it is true, and it is known Messapic nothing to do with Albanian, it would be final point of this whole story.

[Sile]

'Albanoi' as a people appeared first in Ptolemy 3.12.20. In his description of the Roman world, the southernmost part of the province Illyricum included Scodra, Lissus and Mt Scardus (Sar Planina); and, adjoining it the northernmost part of 'Macedonia' included the Taulantii (in the region of Tirana) and the Albani, in whose territory Ptolemy recorded one city only, Albanopolis or Albanos polis. Thus the Albani were a tribe in what we now call Central Albania, and they were an Illyrian-speaking tribe, like the more famous Taulantii, in the second century A.D. Men of this tribe appeared next in 1040, alongside some Epirotes (their neighbours on land) and some Italiotes (their neighbours across the sea), in the army of a rebellious general, George Maniakis. Two chieftains of this tribe, Demetrios and Ghin, pursued an independent policy in the early years of the thirteenth century.

The Taulantii seem to be the only illyrians that Albanians seem to know about.

These people where always north of the Drilon ( drin river ) even after the 3rd Macedonian war.
They are noted by Pliny and Varro in 49BC as still to be north of the Drilon, neighbours with other tribes called the Daorsi.
it was only at the time of Octavians Illyrian campaigns of 35BC-33BC did they move south of the Drilon.

The only other tribes around the area of note was the Pirustae who where near scodra.........pliny calls them Pyraei

[Abeis]

I really get incensed of Serbian stubbornness to belittle Illyrian parentage of Albanian, albeit this view is currently the most-embraced among scholars:

Some Illyrian tribes were either romanized or assimilated by later Slavic migrations, but others moved south into present-day Albania, where they managed to retain their identity, including the Illyrian language that is said to be the ancestor of the modern Albanian language.

Encyclopedia of Linguistics, ed. Philipp Strazny, 2013, p. 116

[ukaj]

Please explain your theory on this Illyrian connection because Albania has less than 10% of ancient illyrian lands, it actually has 40% of ancient Epirote lands. With the Albanian government deciding in 1960 that the true Albanian language is Tosk and from this point , Tosk being the ONLY albanian dialect used in schools to this day, can only be from the conclusion that Albanians are more "greek" epirote than illyrian.

The bulk of illyrian mix is with the Bosnians and Croatians , while Slovenians and Montenegrins are either the same as Albanians or slightly more.
The Serbs have no illyrian mix, they have a thracian mix

True albanian being tosk?dont think so sile..anyway dont really matter,I think we have had this chat before..

[Garrick]

I really get incensed of Serbian stubbornness to belittle Illyrian parentage of Albanian, albeit this view is currently the most-embraced among scholars:

You saw conclusions of professor of Historical linguistic in University of Michigan, US, Dr Benjamin Fortson, that hypothesis Illyrian as ancestor of Albanian has no linguistic support.

And that's not all, you saw that this American professor claims that Messapic has no similarities with Albanian.

Yes there is no hard evidence that Messapic and Illyrian are connected, but we know that there are thinkings that connection between Messapic and Illyrian exists.

For example, Wikipedia: "Messapian may have been related to the Illyrian language".

For Messapic, nearly 350 inscriptions were found in South-Eastern Italy, which are quite short.

You can see Messapic inscriptions:

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

Very Albanian, isn't it.

No.

But you will probably be surprised that there are researchers who think that Illyrian and Messapic are actually Slavic languages.

Yes in Slovenia.




Vodopivec, Older Slovenian ethnogenesis (Starejša slovenska etnogeneza) , Jutro, 2010

About book, Dr. Anton Mavretič

“This book has three main parts representing a complete whole archaeological views of the collection system and treatment of Illyrian language. The most important part of understanding extends also to Illyrian – Slovenian inscriptions, which are the most numerous Messapic inscriptions, which were written by people at the eastern end of the Apennine Peninsula. The breadth and clarity of these inscriptions testify to our indigenous roots also in the whole area of the Adriatic Sea, which in Roman times called Illyria.”

For Vodopivec:
Venetian and Messapic languages are antique proto-Slavic languages as their inscriptions are understandable in the Slovenian language,
Historically and linguistically is incorrect link Illyrian with Albanian, Illyrian languages majority representing Slavic languages,
Also Etruscan, Rhaetic and Old Thracian are understandable in Slovenian language.

Messapic inscriptions can be read in Slovenian, Vodopivec shows how:

Example from above

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

According to Vodopivec: added letter S, H is sound E, uncnown X can be D, L, A, and D is between Pensklen and Upave.
Text is now:

AR T OS ATO TI OSTAI TOI TAI GUNAK EAI EN SKLEN D UPAVE.
Slov. Mlad tu ostani ati, tu doli ostani junak, aja a mi sklenemo da upamo.

Eng. Young stay here daddy, stay down here the hero, you lie but we conclude to hope.

Glosar:
AR jar, mlad; young
T t, (tu); here
OS osti, ostani; remain
ATO ato, ati; father
TI ti; you
OSTAI ostaj, ostani; remain
TOI toj, tvoj; your
TAI, tai, ta; your
GUNAK junak; hero
EAI aja; lie
P p, pa (quick); and
EN en; one
SKLEN skleni; decide
D d, da; on me scar.
UPAVE upave, upamo
VE; ve
R
OS osti, ostani;
TAI, taj, ta, tu; this
a S, SI; you are
S s, si you are
KLEN klen; jope (Klen*)
UPA, Upati, hope
Ve, ve, know.

[ukaj]

On your own ignorance you repeat with insults, if somebody doesn't agree with you-you insult,if somebody doesn't share your point of view-you insult that's part of your culture and behavior,it is very clear and it's not novelty that Albanian origin is disputed,about nationalism i think is rather the opposite Albanians use Pelasgian,Illyrian and every kind of myth for nationalstic claims and irredentism,my people didn't cared when Europeans wrote history that they came from somewhere in the 7th century and it's just theory out of couple like many other nor anyone care even today,but this is used by people like yourself for imagined irredentism,go ahead and post something about linguistics,i asked a historical question cause we don't write history on myths rather on facts and there is neither of those,but just myths,will leave your thread now might you will be the first to prove the link between Albanian and Illyrian once and for all

I dont think you have any valid point milan nor can we speak about illyrians with someone who belives they are related to them even though they were in balkans before 6thctry.I dont belive albanians to be illyrian i belive we are thraco-illyrians not the one people..This would explain the gentic tests done in bulgaria being same genetic marker of albanian gheg,,I think you are trying to prove we have no relations to them because this would disrupt the lands that are in serbia..dont worry we have most of it back,,

[ukaj]

You saw conclusions of professor of Historical linguistic in University of Michigan, US, Dr Benjamin Fortson, that hypothesis Illyrian as ancestor of Albanian has no linguistic support.

And that's not all, you saw that this American professor claims that Messapic has no similarities with Albanian.

Yes there is no hard evidence that Messapic and Illyrian are connected, but we know that there are thinkings that connection between Messapic and Illyrian exists.

For example, Wikipedia: "Messapian may have been related to the Illyrian language".

For Messapic, nearly 350 inscriptions were found in South-Eastern Italy, which are quite short.

You can see Messapic inscriptions:

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

Very Albanian, isn't it.

No.

But you will probably be surprised that there are researchers who think that Illyrian and Messapic are actually Slavic languages.

Yes in Slovenia.




Vodopivec, Older Slovenian ethnogenesis (Starejša slovenska etnogeneza) , Jutro, 2010

About book, Dr. Anton Mavretič

“This book has three main parts representing a complete whole archaeological views of the collection system and treatment of Illyrian language. The most important part of understanding extends also to Illyrian – Slovenian inscriptions, which are the most numerous Messapic inscriptions, which were written by people at the eastern end of the Apennine Peninsula. The breadth and clarity of these inscriptions testify to our indigenous roots also in the whole area of the Adriatic Sea, which in Roman times called Illyria.”

For Vodopivec:
Venetian and Messapic languages are antique proto-Slavic languages as their inscriptions are understandable in the Slovenian language,
Historically and linguistically is incorrect link Illyrian with Albanian, Illyrian languages majority representing Slavic languages,
Also Etruscan, Rhaetic and Old Thracian are understandable in Slovenian language.

Messapic inscriptions can be read in Slovenian, Vodopivec shows how:

Example from above

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

According to Vodopivec: added letter S, H is sound E, uncnown X can be D, L, A, and D is between Pensklen and Upave.
Text is now:

AR T OS ATO TI OSTAI TOI TAI GUNAK EAI EN SKLEN D UPAVE.
Slov. Mlad tu ostani ati, tu doli ostani junak, aja a mi sklenemo da upamo.

Eng. Young stay here daddy, stay down here the hero, you lie but we conclude to hope.

Glosar:
AR jar, mlad; young
T t, (tu); here
OS osti, ostani; remain
ATO ato, ati; father
TI ti; you
OSTAI ostaj, ostani; remain
TOI toj, tvoj; your
TAI, tai, ta; your
GUNAK junak; hero
EAI aja; lie
P p, pa (quick); and
EN en; one
SKLEN skleni; decide
D d, da; on me scar.
UPAVE upave, upamo
VE; ve
R
OS osti, ostani;
TAI, taj, ta, tu; this
a S, SI; you are
S s, si you are
KLEN klen; jope (Klen*)
UPA, Upati, hope
Ve, ve, know.

that silly seperate thoses words to get a meaning.I also can do this the same way that you just post lmao..doesnt matter hear im guessing you would have seen this a million times what are thoughts,,http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.o...n_english.html

[ukaj]

You saw conclusions of professor of Historical linguistic in University of Michigan, US, Dr Benjamin Fortson, that hypothesis Illyrian as ancestor of Albanian has no linguistic support.

And that's not all, you saw that this American professor claims that Messapic has no similarities with Albanian.

Yes there is no hard evidence that Messapic and Illyrian are connected, but we know that there are thinkings that connection between Messapic and Illyrian exists.

For example, Wikipedia: "Messapian may have been related to the Illyrian language".

For Messapic, nearly 350 inscriptions were found in South-Eastern Italy, which are quite short.

You can see Messapic inscriptions:

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

Very Albanian, isn't it.

No.

But you will probably be surprised that there are researchers who think that Illyrian and Messapic are actually Slavic languages.

Yes in Slovenia.




Vodopivec, Older Slovenian ethnogenesis (Starejša slovenska etnogeneza) , Jutro, 2010

About book, Dr. Anton Mavretič

“This book has three main parts representing a complete whole archaeological views of the collection system and treatment of Illyrian language. The most important part of understanding extends also to Illyrian – Slovenian inscriptions, which are the most numerous Messapic inscriptions, which were written by people at the eastern end of the Apennine Peninsula. The breadth and clarity of these inscriptions testify to our indigenous roots also in the whole area of the Adriatic Sea, which in Roman times called Illyria.”

For Vodopivec:
Venetian and Messapic languages are antique proto-Slavic languages as their inscriptions are understandable in the Slovenian language,
Historically and linguistically is incorrect link Illyrian with Albanian, Illyrian languages majority representing Slavic languages,
Also Etruscan, Rhaetic and Old Thracian are understandable in Slovenian language.

Messapic inscriptions can be read in Slovenian, Vodopivec shows how:

Example from above

ARTOS ATOTIOS TAI THOITAI GUNAKHAI PENSKLEN UPAVE

According to Vodopivec: added letter S, H is sound E, uncnown X can be D, L, A, and D is between Pensklen and Upave.
Text is now:

AR T OS ATO TI OSTAI TOI TAI GUNAK EAI EN SKLEN D UPAVE.
Slov. Mlad tu ostani ati, tu doli ostani junak, aja a mi sklenemo da upamo.

Eng. Young stay here daddy, stay down here the hero, you lie but we conclude to hope.

Glosar:
AR jar, mlad; young
T t, (tu); here
OS osti, ostani; remain
ATO ato, ati; father
TI ti; you
OSTAI ostaj, ostani; remain
TOI toj, tvoj; your
TAI, tai, ta; your
GUNAK junak; hero
EAI aja; lie
P p, pa (quick); and
EN en; one
SKLEN skleni; decide
D d, da; on me scar.
UPAVE upave, upamo
VE; ve
R
OS osti, ostani;
TAI, taj, ta, tu; this
a S, SI; you are
S s, si you are
KLEN klen; jope (Klen*)
UPA, Upati, hope
Ve, ve, know.

By the way.pa ta ti si,ju pa.ate<<father,ar etc etc etc,,Their is much albanian in this but dont matter show how silly you are haha.