Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

You pretend to be blind again.
I see hundreds of villages above,also Venetian record are from Epirus.
You can believe they are couple if suit you doesn't matter.

In 2011 Macedonian organizations from Albania asked Macedonians to boycott the census because only in Pustec Municipality were individuals were allowed to declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians.
In 1966, the state abolished religion, and in 1968 the state forced parents to name their children with contemporary and revolutionary (Illyrian) names. The surnames were forcibly changed by the Albanian government, from Slavic into Albanian ones, as part of Albanianization.
Illyrian names :))) do you know their meaning?

Yes there was "strong" Slavic presence whether you like it or not is in the chronicle is in the toponyms.The administration was Slavic most of the time or Byzantine middle ages is that not to be expected?
Albanians perhaps were living in highlands at that time.
Let's mention other population there which i had in mind;
About Ali Pasha, Muslim Albanian ruler (1740-1822):
David Binder, Duke University Pres
In the south-central Balkans, Vlachs settled permanently in towns during the late Middle Ages. Their largest city was Moskopol, with a population of over 40,000 by the mid-eighteenth century. Vlach merchants sent agents thence as far away as Venice and Vienna. Then disaster struck. Albanian bands sacked Moskopol in 1769 and returned to loot in 1788. Then, Ali Pasha Tepelena (1740-1822), the powerful Albanian ruler who had started out life as a bandit chieftain, destroyed what was left of Moskopol.

(End of quote)

Unfortunately Aromanians (Vlachs) who once inhabited a large part of todays Albania were victims of Albanian rulers like Ali Pasha and they never recovered.

You can believe in whatever you like that Albanians are Illyrians,also they were Macedonians,entire Balkans was Albania reality is totaly different even in your own country,whether you like it or not.
Discussion with you is useless like always.When you grow up and be ready to accept reality come back again.

I don't pretend nothing. I am asking you to prove your theory. You are free to see everything you want, but we are not obligated to do the same. In this post you speak about many things, but you don't elaborate your theory about:
1- This strong presence of slavs in South Albania.
2- How this slavs were assimilated by this bashi-bazouks Albanians.
This is our interest and our discussion.
Speaking about Pustec, Voskopojë, Ali Pasha and vlachs, Illyrians, etc has nothing to do with our discussion. It's only your tentative to avoid the discussion about our topic, i.e. troolling.
 
EDIT
You can see this Venetian source, but we can not see it. Can you post it pls?
 
I don't pretend nothing. I am asking you to prove your theory. You are free to see everything you want, but we are not obligated to do the same. In this post you speak about many things, but you don't elaborate your theory about:
1- This strong presence of slavs in South Albania.
2- How this slavs were assimilated by this bashi-bazouks Albanians.
This is our interest and our discussion.
Speaking about Pustec, Voskopojë, Ali Pasha and vlachs, Illyrians, etc has nothing to do with our discussion. It's only your tentative to avoid the discussion about our topic, i.e. troolling.
The thing you avoid to read about and missquoting me intentionaly to change the topic cause you can't stand the reality is;
the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians were doing on the Christians or non-Albanians at some period of time,should i mention the atrocities of Ali Pasha on that region destruction of the very prosperous Vlach city of Moskopolje which is remembered to this day,people had no other choice there as they were unarmed against an armed groups.

I elaborated above what they were doing Moskopol is one example.Non Albanian mean Vlach,Slavs,Greek etc.
Are you going to ask this one more time?
I pointed on the slavic presence many time in this thread,read it again,but you pretend to be blind.
Also you did not answered any of my question,instead repeating irrelevant things,talking to you is like talking to a rock.
You can see this Venetian source, but we can not see it. Can you post it pls?

You wanted a source i gave you Archivo di stato di Venetia.Go there find it,you can inform on wikipedia too.
Parts of it if you read Bulgarian.
http://www.promacedonia.org/mp/mp_7_2_1.htm
mp_7_2_1_1m.jpg
 
The thing you avoid to read about and missquoting me intentionaly to change the topic cause you can't stand the reality is;
the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians were doing on the Christians or non-Albanians at some period of time,should i mention the atrocities of Ali Pasha on that region destruction of the very prosperous Vlach city of Moskopolje which is remembered to this day,people had no other choice there as they were unarmed against an armed groups.

I elaborated above what they were doing Moskopol is one example.Non Albanian mean Vlach,Slavs,Greek etc.
Are you going to ask this one more time?
I pointed on the slavic presence many time in this thread,read it again,but you pretend to be blind.
Also you did not answered any of my question,instead repeating irrelevant things,talking to you is like talking to a rock.

You wanted a source i gave you Archivo di stato di Venetia.Go there find it,you can inform on wikipedia too.
Parts of it if you read Bulgarian.
http://www.promacedonia.org/mp/mp_7_2_1.htm
mp_7_2_1_1m.jpg
And where i have to find this document, i have to go in Venetians archive? Are you serious in what you say here? Do you make use of drugs? What is this peace of paper that you have posted here? Can you provide an transcription from a credibile scholar? What is written in this link with this article in slavic?
All this is boring. I am not here to teach you. Can you put your asss in a chair in front of your PC and start to explain to the people where are this slavs? I am not interested to discuss with you about vlachs, greeks, etc. You are unable to discuss about slavs, let alone the others. How many time i have to wait you?
 
And where i have to find this document, i have to go in Venetians archive? Are you serious in what you say here? Do you make use of drugs? What is this peace of paper that you have posted here? Can you provide an transcription from a credibile scholar? What is written in this link with this article in slavic?
All this is boring. I am not here to teach you. Can you put your asss in a chair in front of your PC and start to explain to the people where are this slavs? I am not interested to discuss with you about vlachs, greeks, etc. You are unable to discuss about slavs, let alone the others. How many time i have to wait you?

Wait i will translate from Slavic to Albanian for you now,or will bring you the original from Venice like in the picture,get lost and don't embarrass yourself anymore.
 
Wait i will translate from Slavic to Albanian for you now,or will bring you the original from Venice like in the picture,get lost and don't embarrass yourself anymore.

You have to bring the original, you have to bring the transcription here, you have to bring the translation in english here. How many times i have to say that here we are in an international and serious forum, not in one of your ridiculous forums where you discuss all the day long about the glory of "your" heroe Alexander The Great.
 
this quote describes some people here.


''people do not care about what is inside the box, as long as the box does what they need done''

That literally pertains to you brother. The Box being your delusion, and the contents hidden, being the truth you show no concern for. Take your advise. Taranis is far more skilled in linguistic understanding than laymen. That is clear.

Do not get me wrong, the Slavs and Greeks on these forums are just as pigheaded and delusional as Albanians.

It therefore is a disservice to act counter to reason and logic, as opposed to with it.

It matters little what ancient kingdom this or that was connected to. It makes land claims irrelevant.

Only uneducated people from the Balkans(all the balkans) buy into the delusion of being some ancient balkan master race.

When you have such delusion, you act counter to reason. As in your case(among others).
 
That literally pertains to you brother. The Box being your delusion, and the contents hidden, being the truth you show no concern for. Take your advise. Taranis is far more skilled in linguistic understanding than laymen. That is clear.

Do not get me wrong, the Slavs and Greeks on these forums are just as pigheaded and delusional as Albanians.

It therefore is a disservice to act counter to reason and logic, as opposed to with it.

It matters little what ancient kingdom this or that was connected to. It makes land claims irrelevant.

Only uneducated people from the Balkans(all the balkans) buy into the delusion of being some ancient balkan master race.

When you have such delusion, you act counter to reason. As in your case(among others).

yes i agree taranis seems to be more experienced in linguistics,
he is not more experienced in Albanian language though,
and Albanian language cannot be viewed from the same point of view as the rest I.E languages
it cannot be viewed because the grammar of the words of Albanian language are categorised under their meaning,
so when someone tells me that the Albanian word 'qiell' comes from the latin 'celum' it just doesn't sounds logical to me because the sky is relevant with the sun so the words in Albanian are 'qiell' and 'diell' and in latin are 'celum' and 'stella,sol'
and of course the same phenomenon we find in many many basic words.
we're talking about a language that has around 785 monosyllabic words while Latin and Greek not more than 10 both of them
and that has 7 vowels while most of I.E languages have 5.
you can call it delusion you can call it whatever you like, i have all the picture in front of me and i'm quite confident for what i say, that steele is just a small piece of that picture so don't think i'm only based to that.
i'm sure that back in 19th century Darwin's theory sounded like a delusion as well, but look at us today,
we all accept it as the most logical theory,
 
"Under such circumstances we are obliged to concentrate our efforts upon investigations of the Albanian language hoping to find out whether there is any relic of a linguistic type of non-I.E. origin. Such a relic, according to Jokl ( see Cabej: 1970, 45), Baric (1955,58) etc. should be sought in the numeration system of Albanian, where besides the I.E decimal numeration (compare dhjetë ‘ten’, tridhjetë ‘thirty’, pesëdhjetë ‘fifty’ etc.), there are also relics of the vigesimal system, as një-zet ‘twenty’, dy-zet ‘forty’; by the Arbereshe of Greece and Italy there are also encountered tre-zet ‘sixty’ and katër-zet ‘eighty’. The vigesimal system is widespread in the non-I.E language of the Basques, who have resisted romanization. Relics of this system have also been preserved in French (quatre-vingts), particularly in popular French. Some traces of this numeration system are to be found in Danish as well: tresindstyve ‘sixty’, firsindstyve ‘eighty’ etc. It is worth emphasizing that Albanian is the only Balkan language, in which such vigesimal numerals have been preserved. In Albanian there should also be other traces of a Pre I.E. layer of words, which are not yet well investigated. Such a word is , most probably, lëpjetë ‘orach, dock’, which, like the Greek lápaton, is of a Mediterranean origin. Of such an origin are also the words venë/verë ‘wine’ and shegë ‘pomegranate’ (see Cabej: 1976/a, I, 320 and II, 131, 280). Baric (1955,57), too, thinks that some Albanian ancient words like (h)ardhi ‘vine’, bisht ‘tail’, mal ‘mountain’, shegë ‘pomegranate’, sh-kurre ‘bush’ etc. are of Pre-I.E. origin. Mal has been acknowledged as a Pre-I.E. word by Solta as well (1980,20,48 sq.). It is to be noted that Albanian mal has also been connected with the Romanian mal ‘(river) - bank’ etc., as well with similar words outside of the Balkans, as for ex. in Lithuanian, Celtic etc. The word mal has generally been acknowledged as the second part of the Illyrian toponym Di-mall-um."

- Shaban Demiraj
Epirus, Pelasgians, Etruscans and Albanians, Pg198
Academy of Sciences of Albania
 
Wrong.

Nothing to do with gjuhë shqipe (language of Shqiptars i.e. Albanians), and nothing to with present day Shqiptars i.e. Albanians.

First gjuhë shqipe (Albanian language) document is from 1462.

Well, our inability to discover more written documents or books in Albanian language, doesn't mean at all the Albanian literature, or even worse the Albanian ethnos, was absent before the year 1462. As a matter of facts, uncountable direct and indirect sources unequivocally prove the existence of a rich Albanian literature, and obviously the existence of the Albanian nation at this corner on earth:

1332

Initiative for Making the Passage
The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum'

'licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in usu et in omnibus suis libris'
(The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin, however they use Latin letters in all their books)


The Albanian presence there, has been proven as early as the 11th century AD

1000 - 1018

Anonymous:
Fragment on the Origins of Nations

It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.

Now, we don't know for certain, if the name Albanians has been a lifetime exonym to identify the Albanian nation, especially the time prior to the aforementioned documents, but what we know for certain is that sometimes different Mediaeval authors prefer to call Albanians in what it seems to be their ancient name: Illyrians

2ujilbm.png

Mazaris (Journey to Hades) Letter September 21. 1415 describing nations inhabiting Peloponnesus
To classify them exactly is at the moment neither feasible nor urgent; the names, however, that tend to crop up in every conversation as the best known and the most important are these : Laconians, Italians, Peloponnesians, Slavs, Albanians, Gypsies and Jews (not to mention a generous admixture of hybrids), adding up to a total of seven nationalities
 
Therefore, from this point of view Albanian should have evolved
from one of the ancient I.E. languages spoken in the eastern or western part
of the Balkans. In such circumstances, one could not establish whether the
Albanians are the descendants ofthe Illyrians, as some scholars have thought
about, or of the Thracians or of Daco-Mysians, as some other ones have
assumed. In this case one should exclude the possibility of considering the
Albanians as descendants of another people or population inside or outside
of the ancient Balkans, as there is no historical evidence for the immigration of
such a people or population into the ancient Balkans. Otherwise, it should
have been recorded, as in the case of thc incursion of some Celtic tribes, or of
the Visigoths and Ostrogoths (see Chapter I, 13).

On the other hand, one could not exclude the possibility that the forefathers
of the Albanians, before settling on the eastern shores of the Adriatic and
Ionian seas, might have inhabited somewhere in the eastern or central Balkan.
However, having no sure information about the course of immigration of the
I.E. tribes, that settled in the western Balkan, such an assumption remains
rather ungrounded. At any rate, one should exclude the possibility of such a
migration from east to west in the historical period starting from the Greek-
Latin ancient times, because the migration of a somewhat large population in
this case could not have remained unnoticed and unrecorded by the historical
sources (see & 7). And still more groundless is the assumption of some
scholars, who think that the forefathers of the Albanians have immigrated into
their present country at a relatively late period (see Chapter I, 9-15).

6. As it was pointed out in Chapter III, a series of data indicate that the
forefathers of the Albanians, at least since the ancient Greek-Roman period,
have lived in the eastern Adriatic and Ionian sea-shore areas. It suffices to
recollect the ancient loanwords from the Greek Doric dialect and from Latin
(see Chapter Ill, 28-33), a number of ancient Albanian place-names,
which have undergone changes according to the evolution of the Albanian
phonological system (see Chapter Ill, 34-83), the early christianization of
the forefathers of the Albanians (see Chapter Ill, 7-27), as well as the
ancient dialectal differentiation of Albanian (see Chapter Ill, 3-6).
Of course, in ancient times, particularly during the Roman domination, as
well as during the Bulgarian and Serbian occupations in Middle Ages, Greek,
Roman, and Slavic enclaves have also appeared in the areas inhabited by the
forefathers of the Albanians. But the fact that the native element did resist
hellenization, romanization, and slavicization, at least, in the areas inhabited at
present by Albanians, clearly shows that the natives represented the largest
part of the population in these areas (see Chapter Ill, 84-91). Otherwise,
we should have to admit that a few uncultured tribes have succeeded in
assimilating some hellenized, latinized, and slavicized populations, which had
not only a cultural superiority but also a significant social-political and
administrative support. Therefore, that would be an unusual, or rather
impossible, phenomenon.

Pg 190-192
The Origin of the Albanians: Linguistically Investigated
Shaban Demiraj
2006
 
Such a chronology might be confirmed by the analysis of one substantive
and one verb from among the Latin loans of Albanian: mjek < médicus and
beko-j < benedicere. The substantive mjek 'physician' has retained the accent
upon the initial syllable as in Latin, whereas the verb bekö-j, as compared to
Latin benedico - benedicere, has transposed the accent upon its final stem
like the other Albanian verbs. Moreover, in both of these words the unstressed
syllables have been reduced and fallen away. Such gradual reductions are an
internal development of Albanian. Taking into account the fact that such
reductions have not taken place even in the oldest layer of the Slavic loanwords,
it might be affirmed that the above-mentioned reductions have been
accomplished prior to the contacts of the Albanians with the Balkan Slavs.
And this would indicate that the above-mentioned stressing of Latin loans in
Albanian goes back to relatively ancient times.

Pg 203
The Origin of the Albanians: Linguistically Investigated
Shaban Demiraj
2006
 
Illyro-Thracian etymology of Byzantium:

Thracian:
Byzas, Byzos,
Dacian: Beusas;
Illyrian: Buzos, Buzetius;
Byzantion "town on the shore."


Albanian buzë, "lip."


Pg 220,
Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area
by Elemér Illyés



In Albanian the word "lip" is often used to describe proximity or closeness to a location.


For example in Albanian the common phrase "buzë detit" means "right next to the sea" (deti = sea).

45437220_173787513571287_3606831200657735680_n.jpg

45556296_510450986137688_2898849165247250432_n.jpg



Both these authors also support a Thraco-Illyrian origin for the etymology of Byzantium:


1. Janin, Raymond (1964). Constantinople byzantine. Paris: Institut Français d'Études Byzantines. p. 10f.


2. Georgacas, Demetrius John (1947). "The Names of Constantinople". Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association. The Johns Hopkins University Press. 78: 347–67. doi:10.2307/283503. JSTOR 283503.


From wiki:


It has been suggested that the name is of Thraco-Illyrian origin. It may be derived from the Thracian or Illyrian personal name Byzas.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium
 
Well, our inability to discover more written documents or books in Albanian language, doesn't mean at all the Albanian literature, or even worse the Albanian ethnos, was absent before the year 1462. As a matter of facts, uncountable direct and indirect sources unequivocally prove the existence of a rich Albanian literature, and obviously the existence of the Albanian nation at this corner on earth:

1332

Initiative for Making the Passage
The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum'
'licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in usu et in omnibus suis libris'
(The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin, however they use Latin letters in all their books)

The Albanian presence there, has been proven as early as the 11th century AD

1000 - 1018

Anonymous:
Fragment on the Origins of Nations
It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.
Now, we don't know for certain, if the name Albanians has been a lifetime exonym to identify the Albanian nation, especially the time prior to the aforementioned documents, but what we know for certain is that sometimes different Mediaeval authors prefer to call Albanians in what it seems to be their ancient name: Illyrians
2ujilbm.png

Mazaris (Journey to Hades) Letter September 21. 1415 describing nations inhabiting Peloponnesus
To classify them exactly is at the moment neither feasible nor urgent; the names, however, that tend to crop up in every conversation as the best known and the most important are these : Laconians, Italians, Peloponnesians, Slavs, Albanians, Gypsies and Jews (not to mention a generous admixture of hybrids), adding up to a total of seven nationalities
The Vatican archives have started a project to digitize these archives. We hope very much that other documents on the Albanians will come out.The best historians are those who study the history of the church and of religion in general.
Of course, we have no hope that the same thing will happen with the archives of the Patriarchate of Istanbul or with the archives of the Serbian church, although we Albanians for most of our medieval history, we have been subjects to Orthodox churches.
 

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