Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

[ukaj]

so what, I do not care what or where the serbs came from..........all we know from Roman and Greek historians is that the serbs mixed with the thracian triballi tribe in Moesia[/QUOTE if slavs mixed with ALL of the indigenous population an assimulated all then their would not be albanian language,,many went south to excape them,,take this migrations of slavs hit heavy in bosnia croatia montenegro, an slavs hit heavy in present day kosova or near kosova but didnt over ran the people their. But instead the indigenous nearly assimulated them this is why the high percent of eb1 in serbians an less in croatia an bosnia ,,you can tell by genetics of the migration pattern in balkans who assimulated who an what migration pattern.all we know from Roman and Greek historians is that the serbs mixed with the thracian triballi tribe in Moesia this would explain clearly the eb1 in the slavs that makes sense but are serbs really slav now? my albanian brothers might argue this with me but that does make sense.Are infact serbians more of albanian blood than of slav,did albanians assmulate the serbs or did the serbs assimulate some albanians,27% eb1 is in the serbian blood.but saying this the indigenous word for montenegro is mal i zi this explains albanians have been around in that area before the bosnian an croatians as the word is indigenous.montenegro is known for its dark an deep black forrests an mountains.

 

[Garrick]

if slavs mixed with ALL of the indigenous population an assimulated all then their would not be albanian language,,many went south to excape them,,take this migrations of slavs hit heavy in bosnia croatia montenegro, an slavs hit heavy in present day kosova or near kosova but didnt over ran the people their. But instead the indigenous nearly assimulated them this is why the high percent of eb1 in serbians an less in croatia an bosnia ,,you can tell by genetics of the migration pattern in balkans who assimulated who an what migration pattern.all we know from Roman and Greek historians is that the serbs mixed with the thracian triballi tribe in Moesia this would explain clearly the eb1 in the slavs that makes sense but are serbs really slav now? my albanian brothers might argue this with me but that does make sense.Are infact serbians more of albanian blood than of slav,did albanians assmulate the serbs or did the serbs assimulate some albanians,27% eb1 is in the serbian blood.but saying this the indigenous word for montenegro is mal i zi this explains albanians have been around in that area before the bosnian an croatians as the word is indigenous.montenegro is known for its dark an deep black forrests an mountains.

Now and you say what Sile highlighted. Slovenians, South Croats, Western Serbs, Bosniacs have Illyrian blood. Today in Serbia there are many Western Serbs, due to migrations, once Serbian state was more on the West. If you notice haplogroup E1b, mostly E-V13 declines from south toward Northern-Western Balkans, for example Bulgaria 23.5%, Macedonia 21.5%, Serbia 18%, Croatia 10%, Slovenia 5%. But no toward Northern-Eastern Balkans, in Romania some parts have relatively high amount, Romania total 15%, even Moldavia 13% what someone can considers as surprise.

If we see first results for Serbia and actual result we can notice that with every new study percent E-V13 is smaller and R1a is bigger. It is because, it is my opinion, first study where E-V13 was 20.4% and R1a was 15.9%, which led by Pericic et al. 2005, took only sample from Belgrade. According new results from Serbian project (Poreklo, Jerkovic, 2014) R1a is 25,84% and E-V13 is 14.60%, other haplogroups are similar as in Eupedia. It is all depends where are samples. Western Serbs have bigger I2a, Northern Serbs have bigger R1a etc. Now, Serbia should detailed study by regions.

Inhabitants of Balkans are mixed, but all researchers notice small amount I2a at Gheg Albanians (not for Tosk Albanians), for some people it is mystery. Nobody gave explanation why Ghegs are only people in the Balkans with lower I2a. There is only 2.5% among Kosovo Albanians who are Ghegs. Even in Crete I2a is almost 3 x bigger 7%.

 

[DuPidh]

Now and you say what Sile highlighted. Slovenians, South Croats, Western Serbs, Bosniacs have Illyrian blood. Today in Serbia there are many Western Serbs, due to migrations, once Serbian state was more on the West. If you notice haplogroup E1b, mostly E-V13 declines from south toward Northern-Western Balkans, for example Bulgaria 23.5%, Macedonia 21.5%, Serbia 18%, Croatia 10%, Slovenia 5%. But no toward Northern-Eastern Balkans, in Romania some parts have relatively high amount, Romania total 15%, even Moldavia 13% what someone can considers as surprise.

If we see first results for Serbia and actual result we can notice that with every new study percent E-V13 is smaller and R1a is bigger. It is because, it is my opinion, first study where E-V13 was 20.4% and R1a was 15.9%, which led by Pericic et al. 2005, took only sample from Belgrade. According new results from Serbian project (Poreklo, Jerkovic, 2014) R1a is 25,84% and E-V13 is 14.60%, other haplogroups are similar as in Eupedia. It is all depends where are samples. Western Serbs have bigger I2a, Northern Serbs have bigger R1a etc. Now, Serbia should detailed study by regions.

Inhabitants of Balkans are mixed, but all researchers notice small amount I2a at Gheg Albanians (not for Tosk Albanians), for some people it is mystery. Nobody gave explanation why Ghegs are only people in the Balkans with lower I2a. There is only 2.5% among Kosovo Albanians who are Ghegs. Even in Crete I2a is almost 3 x bigger 7%.

We have stated before that about half I2a in Southern Albania is Slavic. Bugarian empire was there for 120 yrs or so. No body is trying to hide that. There is also 4-6% I2b which is probably Gothic. Archaeology supports the presence of Goths in the area.

 

[Ike]

Im not using political propaganda i am pointing out their were people in present day kosova before the slavnic migration,,I am mearly pointing out possibilitys of the migrations into balkans that has offected the albanian laguage,I have sat back an had to read things that i dont agree with nor any albanians,So maybe you can read i mean no harm an it is in rights to explain this as it is not negitive nor racist or propaganda..do not be offended..so the CONCLUSION is serbian slavs migrated from caucasus to carpathian mountains then into present day serbia,bosnia,croatia montenegro.

Yes we know about Slavic migration. Why do you even mention that?

their is no doubt that slavnic language is satem an is related to indo iranian witch has taken offect of the albanian language.before the slav migration was albanian a cetum language? yes i belive it was.

You'd have to talk with a linguist specialised in historical development, if and how it is possible for one language to go from satem>centum and vice versa. It's too complex process for me to give an estimation.

what i find interesting the word montenegro for slavs is related to Crna Gora" in Serbian, which means "black mountain.The albanian meaning for the area of montenegro is mal i zi.mal i zi is pure Indigenous. meaning black forrest in albanian. research mal i zi.I also want to conclude that mal i zi is messapian an pre dates any slav migration

Could be, but that would still be no evidence. Slavs also acquired and used many terms from remnants of Latins, which had been here before them. If Slavic migration had been of a smaller extent, there would have been no one to write down about it, and then Slavs would claim they are indigenous to these areas, which wasn't the baseline.

 

[ukaj]

Now and you say what Sile highlighted. Slovenians, South Croats, Western Serbs, Bosniacs have Illyrian blood. Today in Serbia there are many Western Serbs, due to migrations, once Serbian state was more on the West. If you notice haplogroup E1b, mostly E-V13 declines from south toward Northern-Western Balkans, for example Bulgaria 23.5%, Macedonia 21.5%, Serbia 18%, Croatia 10%, Slovenia 5%. But no toward Northern-Eastern Balkans, in Romania some parts have relatively high amount, Romania total 15%, even Moldavia 13% what someone can considers as surprise.

If we see first results for Serbia and actual result we can notice that with every new study percent E-V13 is smaller and R1a is bigger. It is because, it is my opinion, first study where E-V13 was 20.4% and R1a was 15.9%, which led by Pericic et al. 2005, took only sample from Belgrade. According new results from Serbian project (Poreklo, Jerkovic, 2014) R1a is 25,84% and E-V13 is 14.60%, other haplogroups are similar as in Eupedia. It is all depends where are samples. Western Serbs have bigger I2a, Northern Serbs have bigger R1a etc. Now, Serbia should detailed study by regions.

Inhabitants of Balkans are mixed, but all researchers notice small amount I2a at Gheg Albanians (not for Tosk Albanians), for some people it is mystery. Nobody gave explanation why Ghegs are only people in the Balkans with lower I2a. There is only 2.5% among Kosovo Albanians who are Ghegs. Even in Crete I2a is almost 3 x bigger 7%.

notice i2a is more common in eastern europe than of balkans,An the population of i2a is very small in balkans compared to eb1.r1a an i2a expanded to balkans late.,,r1a an i2a lived very close where ever i2a is r1a is near..maybe r1a an i2a both migrated very close to eachother into balkans near the same time.eb1 is in southern italia.albania,greece,macedonia due to the albanians living their maybe. 600 thousand albanians in macedonia infact. i2a2 an r1a satem infused the cetum in balkans

 

[ukaj]

Yes we know about Slavic migration. Why do you even mention that?



You'd have to talk with a linguist specialised in historical development, if and how it is possible for one language to go from satem>centum and vice versa. It's too complex process for me to give an estimation.



Could be, but that would still be no evidence. Slavs also acquired and used many terms from remnants of Latins, which had been here before them. If Slavic migration had been of a smaller extent, there would have been no one to write down about it, and then Slavs would claim they are indigenous to these areas, which wasn't the baseline.

it is messapian an their is many more.anyway

 

[Sile]

notice i2a is more common in eastern europe than of balkans,An the population of i2a is very small in balkans compared to eb1.r1a an i2a expanded to balkans late.,,r1a an i2a lived very close where ever i2a is r1a is near..maybe r1a an i2a both migrated very close to eachother into balkans near the same time.eb1 is in southern italia.albania,greece,macedonia due to the albanians living their maybe. 600 thousand albanians in macedonia infact. i2a2 an r1a satem infused the cetum in balkans

I2a was already amongst the illyrian tribes before the slavs got there.....................what is the percentage of I2a in ghegs and tosks?

 

[ukaj]

I2a was already amongst the illyrian tribes before the slavs got there.....................what is the percentage of I2a in ghegs and tosks?

did i2a2 already mixed with the illyrians?Or did i2a2 migrate with r1a their were more than 1 migration around the same time.hear is a list of haplogroup i2a2,i2a,r1a,eb1 and em-81,an j2(.red is r1b).(blue is i2a an i2a2),(green is j2),(yellow is r1a) an light blue is (eb1 an em81).You can clearly see j2 is a mediterranean haplogroup,e haplogroup is both inland an mediterranean but spread out much along the coast more than of i2a an i2a2,r1a is also a inland haplogroup.Their is no possiable way to suggest i2a2 of bosnia an croatian are indigenous of that area.eb an j2 were already established in the area of the albanian coast an maybe higher.i2a2 may have pushed eb1 downwards from the migration,since bosnians an croatians are both r1a an i2a2 can only mean few things.i2a2 migrated around the same time as r1a as they have been living next to eachother as the charts states or few hundreds year early into bosnia an croatia forcing eb1 to settle south aswell as j2. forcing j2 an eb1 albanians into kosova .their are new tests done from parts of north albania highlands an have came up positive j2 with eb1 these albanians settled from herzgovinia highlands an migrated south in the 13 an 14ctry finding people who spoke albanian this is old oral history of our people we all know about.

You can also see eb1 in southern italia next to j2 again near the coastal lands.So this also makes it even more unlikely that i2a2 is a med haplogroup.

 

[Garrick]

I2a was already amongst the illyrian tribes before the slavs got there.....................what is the percentage of I2a in ghegs and tosks?

All people in the Balkans have I2a, not only Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs, it means Armanji, Romanians and Greeks too, even inhabitants of Crete.

Some reason exists why Carpi (Ghegs) have no this haplogroup, maybe customs?

Tosks are Albanians too, but different than Ghegs, probably another Free Dacian tribe, not sure Carpi.

 

[ukaj]

All people in the Balkans have I2a, not only Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs, it means Armanji, Romanians and Greeks too, even inhabitants of Crete.

Some reason exists why Carpi (Ghegs) have no this haplogroup, maybe customs?

Tosks are Albanians too, but different than Ghegs, probably another Free Dacian tribe, not sure Carpi.

And more people have eb1 in balkans than of i2a2 infact more eb1 is seen along the coast line of balkans than of i2a2..Ghegs did live very very traditional an sicluded an still follow old traditons from their ancstors maybe that is one of reasons.an insulting me calling me carpi does not help you my friend as carpi is term of carpathian mountains this is place where slavs migrated to after they migrated from caucasus then into balkans.anyway carpi or not i still have alot of indigenous influence that your language lacks of in balkans,your indigenous infuence is in caucasus as i posted early.

 

[Garrick]

Could be, but that would still be no evidence. Slavs also acquired and used many terms from remnants of Latins, which had been here before them. If Slavic migration had been of a smaller extent, there would have been no one to write down about it, and then Slavs would claim they are indigenous to these areas, which wasn't the baseline.

It is essence, there are no evidence for Free Dacians, especially Carpi, how they came to Albania, but some things can be reconstructed and Romanian scientists can refer to reliable sources.

One of key issues is whether Carpi were Dacians? There are reasons for and against this assumption. Generally if Free Dacians were Dacians by ethnicity or they were different tribes which lived in regions close Dacians. According scientists Free Dacians could be different tribes by ethnicity, Scytho-Samartian, Celtic, Slavic, Thracian, Albanian etc.

For Carpi we now know name is linked with Carpathian mountains and Albanian word karpë, we can see in encyclopedia:

http://enc.slider.com/Enc/Carpi

Their name (Carpi) seems to be connected to the place where they lived, meaning "rock" or "mountain" (cf. Albanian karpë='rock', from PIE *ker/sker).

Thus the name of the Carpathian mountains is probably either derived from their name, or their name is derived from the name of the mountains.

...
Their fate is not known, but it has been suggested that they eventually migrated southward and that they could be the ancestors of Albanians.

...

In Romania and surrounding countries there are many Albanian toponyms, we will give here several:

Carpathian mountains (Romania, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia)

Albanian karpë = rock (Eng.), stâncă (Rom.)


Beskidy (series of mountain ranges in Carpathians, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia)

Albanian bjeshkë = mountain, mountain pasture (Eng.)


Lăpuşna commune in Moldavia, Lăpuşnic village in Romania (Transilvania)

Albanian Llapushnik, village in Kosovo


More toponyms in Romania with word Gura (for example Gura Humuroli)

Albanian gur = stone (Eng.), piatră (Rom.)


Even Bukuresht, capital of Romania

Albanian bukurisht = beauties (Eng.), frumuseti (Romanian)

...
Even Albanian linguist Cabej admited that there are Albanian toponyms in Romania and surrounding.

 

[ukaj]

It is essence, there are no evidence for Free Dacians, especially Carpi, how they came to Albania, but some things can be reconstructed and Romanian scientists can refer to reliable sources.

One of key issues is whether Carpi were Dacians? There are reasons for and against this assumption. Generally if Free Dacians were Dacians by ethnicity or they were different tribes which lived in regions close Dacians. According scientists Free Dacians could be different tribes by ethnicity, Scytho-Samartian, Celtic, Slavic, Thracian, Albanian etc.

For Carpi we now know name is linked with Carpathian mountains and Albanian word karpë, we can see in encyclopedia:

http://enc.slider.com/Enc/Carpi

Their name (Carpi) seems to be connected to the place where they lived, meaning "rock" or "mountain" (cf. Albanian karpë='rock', from PIE *ker/sker).

Thus the name of the Carpathian mountains is probably either derived from their name, or their name is derived from the name of the mountains.

...
Their fate is not known, but it has been suggested that they eventually migrated southward and that they could be the ancestors of Albanians.

...

In Romania and surrounding countries there are many Albanian toponyms, we will give here several:

Carpathian mountains (Romania, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia)

Albanian karpë = rock (Eng.), stâncă (Rom.)


Beskidy (series of mountain ranges in Carpathians, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia)

Albanian bjeshkë = mountain, mountain pasture (Eng.)


Lăpuşna commune in Moldavia, Lăpuşnic village in Romania (Transilvania)

Albanian Llapushnik, village in Kosovo


More toponyms in Romania with word Gura (for example Gura Humuroli)

Albanian gur = stone (Eng.), piatră (Rom.)


Even Bukuresht, capital of Romania

Albanian bukurisht = beauties (Eng.), frumuseti (Romanian)

...
Even Albanian linguist Cabej admited that there are Albanian toponyms in Romania and surrounding.

AHAHHA TALK IS OVER CLEARLY YOU ARE UNEDUCATED.Its not albanian toponyms in romanian it is romanians whom share simular language with albanians at one point in time,proto albanians came incontact with romanians above jinerek line in present day north albania.You clearly have one agenda an it is to disrespect albanians an whom they are as a person an as a race for you to justifie because if albanians were not in present day kosova or any slavnic lands means you guys were the only people in thoses lands that the slavnic migration assimulated.I am sorry we albanians didnt assimulate .gur has no relations to gura bla bla bla.it stems strait from proto but you really are uneducated.If you knew all albanian language you would know most old words stem strait from proto indo european.have a nice day.didnt even know karpi was albanian their you go you must know more than me,gur means rock,stone.an rock also means shkemb not karpe it comes from the pie word .PIE *g^wrH-i- ‘mountain, rock, stone’ (Pok. 477)

 

[Garrick]

You'd have to talk with a linguist specialised in historical development, if and how it is possible for one language to go from satem>centum and vice versa. It's too complex process for me to give an estimation.

Ike

Things are complex but we know now much more.

Now and some Italian linguists, not only Georgiev, speak that Albanian has Latin loanwords which show East Balkan Latin (Romanian) phonetics, not West Balkan (Dalmatian). It is possible only if Albanians lived with Romanians, in the Northern Eastern Balkans and beyond. These proofs are very strong and some Albanians try ignore them, but not all.

In next years it will be more knowledge about Carpi, scientists assemble puzzle, after Russu. According that Albanians are descended from the Carpi who were Free Dacians and they lived mostly in Moldova (today Romanian province, not Moldavia state but they have border) that were settled in the Roman Empire at the turn of the III-IV century. This theory was formulated by several Romanian scientists before Russu, but he developed it.

The basic idea of this theory is that in the territory of Roman Empire: Illyricum etc. could not survive a large group unromanized inhabitants. So Albanians could come only from a later population who passed Danube. Albanian Carpi explains concordances between Romanian and Albanian, and Latin influence, which began to exert on them while they still lived in Moldova Carpi, near the Roman Empire.

It is possible that another tribes are also Albanian, and that Carpi are Ghegs. Some Romanian researchers suppose that Tosks are Costoboci. Tosko / Costo, inversion. If someone searches the surname Boci it is most prevalent in Albania, but everywhere else in the world. It is possible that Costoboci came to today's Southern Albania before Carpi. There is evidence that Costoboci were in conflicts with Greeks. But we will see new evidence. For now Carpi are object of attention because there are more evidence about their impact on the creation of the Albanian nation.

...
But theory about Albanian origin by some Free Dacian tribes, especially Carpi, is for new thread. It would be serious topic that can be viewed from multiple facets.

Here things have been exhausted.

 

[Garrick]

AHAHHA TALK IS OVER CLEARLY YOU ARE UNEDUCATED.Its not albanian toponyms in romanian it is romanians whom share simular language with albanians at one point in time,proto albanians came incontact with romanians above jinerek line in present day north albania.You clearly have one agenda an it is to disrespect albanians an whom they are as a person an as a race for you to justifie because if albanians were not in present day kosova or any slavnic lands means you guys were the only people in thoses lands that the slavnic migration assimulated.I am sorry we albanians didnt assimulate .gur has no relations to gura bla bla bla.it stems strait from proto but you really are uneducated.If you knew all albanian language you would know most old words stem strait from proto indo european.have a nice day.didnt even know karpi was albanian their you go you must know more than me,gur means rock,stone.an rock also means shkemb not karpe it comes from the pie word .PIE *g^wrH-i- ‘mountain, rock, stone’ (Pok. 477)

No.

Some linguists consider Albanian as Eastern even Northern IE.

It can be logical. Because if we take that Albanians long lived in Eastern Romania, and parts of Moldavia, Ukraine, even Slovakia, Poland.

In that case Albanian was close to Dacian, Baltic, Slavic, Celtic etc. We can discuss if Albanian was Dacian, if Free Dacians were ethnic Dacians. I think no, but it is good question for discussion.

Proto Albanian, which was probably closer to Armenian, Anatolian IE, Northern Iranian etc., significantly changed after the change of habibat.

...
Look at Beskidy.

They cover the Ukraine, Poland and Slovakia, but in those languages you will not find root of word. Not in Romanian.

Çabej, Albanian linguist, considered that Albanian term bjeshkë is source for oronym of Beskidy mountains.

bjeshkë (Alb.), mountain pasture (Eng.), horské pastviny (Slov.), pastwiska górskie (Pol.), pășune de munte (Rom.)

 

[ukaj]

No.

Some linguists consider Albanian as Eastern even Northern IE.

It can be logical. Because if we take that Albanians long lived in Eastern Romania, and parts of Moldavia, Ukraine, even Slovakia, Poland.

In that case Albanian was close to Dacian, Baltic, Slavic, Celtic etc. We can discuss if Albanian was Dacian, if Free Dacians were ethnic Dacians. I think no, but it is good question for discussion.

Proto Albanian, which was probably closer to Armenian, Anatolian IE, Northern Iranian etc., significantly changed after the change of habibat.

...
Look at Beskidy.

They cover the Ukraine, Poland and Slovakia, but in those languages you will not find root of word. Not in Romanian.

Çabej, Albanian linguist, considered that Albanian term bjeshkë is source for oronym of Beskidy mountains.

bjeshkë (Alb.), mountain pasture (Eng.), horské pastviny (Slov.), pastwiska górskie (Pol.), pășune de munte (Rom.)

dont waste my time please.You are basing words that is not albanian when your whole language nearly is understandable in ukraine an slov.run along with your propaganda

 

[Ike]

dont waste my time please.You are basing words that is not albanian when your whole language nearly is understandable in ukraine an slov.run along with your propaganda

The way you respond to things makes one think that you've got one strange pattern going on in your head.
What's his language correlation with Ukrainian, got to do with Albanian-Illyrian relationship? All I see is that you support the possibility (or are certain) of some languages coming to Balkan from beyond Danube, but which could also include Albanian language coming from Carpathians.

 

[ukaj]

dont waste my time please.You are basing words that is not albanian when your whole language nearly is understandable in ukraine an slov.run along with your propaganda

It didnt come from carpathian mountains it went their through the romanians.As i said romanians at one point spoke simular language as albanian.proto albanians influenced romanian language forsure i will admit that.

 

[Sile]

It didnt come from carpathian mountains it went their through the romanians.As i said romanians at one point spoke simular language as albanian.proto albanians influenced romanian language forsure i will admit that.

Romanians did not always speak latin

 

[LABERIA]

It didnt come from carpathian mountains it went their through the romanians.As i said romanians at one point spoke simular language as albanian.proto albanians influenced romanian language forsure i will admit that.

It`s not true.
Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians, while Romanians are descendants of the Dacians. These two ancient peoples, who continue today to live in the same territory as in ancient times, were once neighboring to each other. Remember, South Slavs had not yet reached the Balkans.They were still in Asia or God know where.
This explain why some romanian words(70 in a total of 160 words that can not be explained with latin, slav, german, hungarian or turkish) can be explained with the help of Albanian language.
We know the contribution of Albanians in the creation of the Greek and Serb modern nations. This happened due to the assimilation of Albanian element, etc. But we can not say that Romanians are simply another Albanian diaspora as are trying to argue Hungarian nationalists. It's not true.
We are two different nations. Once neighbouring, but always different.

 

[ukaj]

It`s not true.
Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians, while Romanians are descendants of the Dacians. These two ancient peoples, who continue today to live in the same territory as in ancient times, were once neighboring to each other. Remember, South Slavs had not yet reached the Balkans.They were still in Asia or God know where.
This explain why some romanian words(70 in a total of 160 words that can not be explained with latin, slav, german, hungarian or turkish) can be explained with the help of Albanian language.
We know the contribution of Albanians in the creation of the Greek and Serb modern nations. This happened due to the assimilation of Albanian element, etc. But we can not say that Romanians are simply another Albanian diaspora as are trying to argue Hungarian nationalists. It's not true.
We are two different nations. Once neighbouring, but always different.

proto albanians lived around area of mati an upwards proto romanians maye infact assimulated albanians.i didnt say we are dacians.Dr Michiel de Vaan has a preety good lecture on albanians an romanians check it up