Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

Its very suspect what you speak, no joke, its trange, because tosk is a dialect, did really people speak or feal in and about "tosk and "geg" like you? where you come from? name of village?....im very wunder about what you say....but when you say that you father thinks in this structure, then i understand you. But you should know, that this is veryyyyyy.....strange, i really ask myself if you or high or somethink like that....
hahah im not serbian i give besa.I am simply saying it how it is I am speaking of my gheg ancestors an have a right to disagree with other albanians whom seem to be arigant.I do not do get high bro.All im saying is geg albanians was the dominate language in the 14ctry.Everyone knows this sadly others disagree.But really dont give a shit,My surname is proto albanian.An i have idiots hear who disagre with me an call me serbian because i dont agree with them,,If these fools know of the struggle my family have with serbians then they wouldnt disrespect me an call me serbian.I have no issue with tosks what i do have a issue is when someone tells me that all arbreshe an arbanties are all tosks an speak tosk That boils my blood because that is 1000% rubbish,Geneticlly ghegs are same as arbeshe an arbanties..anyhow.I have no time for arigant people whom seem to speak bullshit.I will say it again.albanians migrated to epirus to populated the depopulated lands in the byzantine time,This came from the mouth of a noble arbreshe in italia.
 
I have as illyrian Gods

Vidasus and Thana .................both from illyrian Pannonia ....................what can you tell me of these?

from modern Croatia .....there are these Illyrian Gods .........Bind and Latra and Medaur

Vidasus - Vidhi name for the tree in Albanian (Ulmus), and you know that Vidasus was deity of forests and nature.

Thana - in Albanian is name for Cornelian Cherry which grows wild and is the first plant to flower in the spring. Very important fruit especially for Gheg (northern) Albanians. Thana is a very common name for women in Albanian Gheg, sometimes Tana and sometimes we can find it in medieval times as
male name "Tanush".

For Bind(us) there are more words/meanings created since it seems that it was a very important deity:

Bind(ë): cogency, persuasion, asuredness, obedience, etc
Bind-je: faith, belief, docility,...etc
Për-bind-ësh (deconstructed in English: like-Bind-ish): vigan, giant, huge, immense, enormous, monster.
Bind is male name, used in Kosovo.

As per Latra I can only think of Flatra - wings, but I do not know what kind of deity Latra was in order to find real links to Albanian language. Maybe flutura (butterfly) derived from this, I do not know...

There is no connection with Medaur as far as I know, but someone can correct me if I am wrong.
 
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Vidasus - Vidhi name for the tree in Albanian (Ulmus), and you know that Vidasus was deity of forests and nature.

I vaguely recall an article of Antun Mayer who dwellt on this matter. As Duridanov stressed out, this theonym is likely derived from IE *widʰu- (forest). Thus it would not be amiss to draw a comparison with alb. vidh 'elm', which according to Orel, its pristine form in PAlb. would have been *wīdza for an earlier *dz had as its regular outcome /dh/. Truth be told, I am still perplexed because PAlb. undoubtedly displays the so-called Winter's law, that is the lengthening of first syllable before mediae, while the Illyrian attested form does not show it (because of Latin inscription?).

P.S: Many villages were named by the same token as Βιδιστιά (an Albanian-speaking village in nearby of Triphylia - Greece), or Vidhishtë, a village in central Albania.
 
Yeah, that is the biggest problem; no-one actually knows how Illyrians spelt those words or names. Those words may have reached us utterly corrupted either through interpretatio graeca or interpretatio romana. Therefore when somebody just throws a bunch of supposedly Illyrian words or names and just says "common quick, give Albanian link to it "makes me want to hit them right there in their arrogant faces",....because this just proves the following: arrogance=ignorance or arrogance=I have my agenda here against you.

I am not a linguist but I can easily see through graeca or romana interpretatio of Illyrian, I mean surely Illyrian did not sound like "Vidasus", no way, nor did Bindus nor Me-Da-Ur, this last one is clearly graeca int. and I can only guess that Illyrian could be a lot shorter and more pragmatic with their words. In Gheg you can have a question made of one letter words "A â, a s'â" and no-one can put that into writing but Ghegs use it every day in their speech. Here letter “A” represent the “being” the existence. And I can only translate it into English this way “is it or is it not”.

People who try to write anything about Illyrian and Albanian should know at least very good Albanian, not the standard which lacks at least 50.000 Gheg words and expressions.
 
Welcome to Eupedia, though I would suggest that maybe this thread isn't the best starting point.

With all respect, but Albania (or Caucasian Albania) was a historic territory in the Caucasus (on the approximate area of the modern - Turkic - country of Azerbaijan). Wether it bears any relation with the modern Albanians (which Garrick suggested), I do not think so. In my opinion, the ancient Caucasian Albanian spoke a non-Indo-European language that was related with modern Chechen (at least part of the same language family), whereas modern Albanian is indubitably an Indo-European language.

Maybe I wasn't enough clear, Caucasus Albania and territory where proto Albanian probably emerged are not same, random coincidences. It is opinion that territory of proto Albanian is somewhere between eastern Anatolia, southern Caucasus and northern Iran. And some Albanian scholars wrote about it.

When speakers of proto Albanian came to the Carpathian mountains and areas which belonging to today's Moldova in Romania and eastern Romania, and it is possible parts of Moldavia, southwestern Ukraine, eastern Slovakia, even southern Poland, probably they mixed with other people in region, and language is mixed with northern Thracian/Dacian and later with eastern Latin (which is spoken in mainland Dacia).
 
there are people on this thread that keep thinking that modern is the same as what ancient was ..................they will never learn.

Languages continually evolve

Yes, reputation, languages evolve, some languages disappear, and new emerge.

Romanian scientists argue that in 2nd century Balkans from Western Adriatic coast to heart of Dacia was Romanized.

There were not any non-Romanized area (excepting Greek language area on the south) and these are the facts, all Illyrian and other tribes were Romanized.

Only out of Romanized areas, as in the border of mainland Dacia in territory of free Dacian tribes, any language could survive.

Carpi
(and probably Costoboci) could speak language which is non Romanized, and that language could be ancestor of Albanian; Romanian theory is simple, very logical and based on facts.
 
I am not a linguist but I can easily see through graeca or romana interpretatio of Illyrian, I mean surely Illyrian did not sound like "Vidasus", no way, nor did Bindus nor Me-Da-Ur, this last one is clearly graeca int. and I can only guess that Illyrian could be a lot shorter and more pragmatic with their words. In Gheg you can have a question made of one letter words "A â, a s'â" and no-one can put that into writing but Ghegs use it every day in their speech. Here letter “A” represent the “being” the existence. And I can only translate it into English this way “is it or is it not”.

People who try to write anything about Illyrian and Albanian should know at least very good Albanian, not the standard which lacks at least 50.000 Gheg words and expressions.

Great points! 👍
 
Maybe I wasn't enough clear, Caucasus Albania and territory where proto Albanian probably emerged are not same, random coincidences. It is opinion that territory of proto Albanian is somewhere between eastern Anatolia, southern Caucasus and northern Iran. And some Albanian scholars wrote about it.

When speakers of proto Albanian came to the Carpathian mountains and areas which belonging to today's Moldova in Romania and eastern Romania, and it is possible parts of Moldavia, southwestern Ukraine, eastern Slovakia, even southern Poland, probably they mixed with other people in region, and language is mixed with northern Thracian/Dacian and later with eastern Latin (which is spoken in mainland Dacia).

What do you mean you're not clear enough!
You've been spreading this same BS all over Eupedia for the last five years.
Obviously it's all wishful thinking on your part.
 
What do you mean you're not clear enough!
You've been spreading this same BS all over Eupedia for the last five years.
Obviously it's all wishful thinking on your part.

No.

Romanian scientists talk about the facts, no myths no fictions.

Everyone can see the map:

Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD.png


Large part of Balkans and mainland Dacia were Romanized.

Illyrian and another languages were extinct.

In the south of Balkan people spoke Greek.

Nobody found inscription in any other language, only Greek or Latin (language of Romans).

Enver Hoxha and his researchers, digged and digged and digged and found nothing.

Only Greek or Latin.
...

Romanian scientists argue that only areas where someone can search another language are in the border of Roman empire.

Everyone can see, above Dacia there were Carpi and Costoboci.

According Romanian scientists these tribes could save their language.

Because they lived in non-Romanized areas.

Probably language of Carpi and possible Costoboci was forerunner of Albanian.

This language had Thracian/Dacian elements and probably elements of languages of place of origin people who came to the Carpathian mountains and Eastern Romania (and parts of Moldavia, southern-western Ukraine and eastern Slovakia) in earlier times (possible from eastern Anatholia/southern Caucasus).

Because Dacia was Romanized, this language received the influence of Latin (Eastern/Romanian variant).

...
When Huns and Avars came to the Eastern Romania and Carpathian mountains they suppressed the tribe Carpi, and people of this tribe were migrated, they had several settlements before they reached the areas in present-day central Albania.

Carpi probably came to central Albania between 5-9 century.

Costoboci had different way, but this tribe also can be ancestor of Albanians (possible Tosks).

According this theory Albanian language has Thracian/Dacian component because language of Carpi (and possible Costoboci) had Thracian/Dacian component.
...


Someone can ask where are Illyrians.

Every nation in areas where Illyrians lived Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Bosniacs, Greek, Albanians, even Hungarians can tell that there is Illyrian blood in them.

And it is not totally incorrect.

But nothing more than that.

Illyrians were fully Romanized, they have become strongly commited for Roman empire, and they gave many emperors for that empire.

This simple and bare truth unfortunately some people, for different reasons, don't want to see, but it is not hard more times to explain same things.

...
Romanian theory about Carpi and possible Costoboci, as the ancestors of today's Albanians is simple, logical and based on evidence.
 
This thread has grown loathsome at the very moment when some repulsive simpletons like Garrick-the-Ultimate-Serbian-Warrior and his ilk, littered and ruined it once for all by blurting out their unmitigated non-sense. As the old adage goes "when the cat's away, the mice will play". :( I just can't make out what drives them insane to the point they become dysfunctional creatures, trying to disparage everything that goes against what's been instilled into their thick skulls since childhood...
 
This thread has grown loathsome at the very moment when some repulsive simpletons like Garrick-the-Ultimate-Serbian-Warrior and his ilk, littered and ruined it once for all by blurting out their unmitigated non-sense. As the old adage goes "when the cat's away, the mice will play". :( I just can't make out what drives them insane to the point they become dysfunctional creatures, trying to disparage everything that goes against what's been instilled into their thick skulls since childhood...

Patience...
 
iapod or japod is illyrian tribe in northern croatia

as I said with the others they are from northern illyrian tribes from pannonia ( which is know modern Hungary )

the findings are the oldest and always from the north

We should be patient.

...
There are no Illyrian inscriptions, maybe for 100, 500, 1000... years someone finds anything but chances are small.

Some Albanians think if there are no Illyrian inscriptions it is good to say that Albanian is descendant of Illyrian.

Surely, science doesn't do that way.

English linguist Woodward argues that disproportionately large amount linguistic attention has been paid to the language of Illyrian in light on the facts that inscription doesn't exist.

Who can know that Iapodes, Colapiani, Liburni, Deuri, Parthini etc. etc. spoke same language, Illyrian unique (oops maybe Albanian is more correcty).

It is possible that members of these tribes if they would be in the meeting they could not understand each others at all.
 
I have as illyrian Gods

Vidasus and Thana .................both from illyrian Pannonia ....................what can you tell me of these?

Slovenes, Serbs, Croats can say Vidasus and Thana are their divinities.

Vidasus = Vid (Serbian/Croatian vid, Slovenian vid, English eyesight; verb. Serbian/Croatian videti, English to see)

It is all-seeing deity who sees the world in Slavic mythology.

In a broader sense it is a connoisseur, deity who knows and sees everything.

Thana = Dana (Danica) (Serbian/Croatian, feminine gender from the word dan, Slovenian dan, English day)

It is Solar younger sister or daughter in Slavic mythology.

It is Venera in her appearance in the morning sky.

...
Hmm, maybe Slovenes, Serbs and Croats are descendants of Illyirans, maybe Slovenian and some Croatian researchers who support this assumption are right.
 
Slovenes, Serbs, Croats can say Vidasus and Thana are their divinities.

Vidasus = Vid (Serbian/Croatian vid, Slovenian vid, English eyesight; verb. Serbian/Croatian videti, English to see)

It is all-seeing deity who sees the world in Slavic mythology.

In a broader sense it is a connoisseur, deity who knows and sees everything.

Thana = Dana (Danica) (Serbian/Croatian, feminine gender from the word dan, Slovenian dan, English day)

It is Solar younger sister or daughter in Slavic mythology.

It is Venera in her appearance in the morning sky.

...
Hmm, maybe Slovenes, Serbs and Croats are descendants of Illyirans, maybe Slovenian and some Croatian researchers who support this assumption are right.

You and the Albanians need to understand the main order of assimilations of the illyrians

first from the celts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Eastern_Europe

Therefore, early Celtic expeditions were concentrated against Illyrian tribes.[3] The first Balkan tribe to be defeated by the Celts was the Illyric Autariatae
The northern Illyrian tribes where assimilated into celtic society starting from 700BC in the eastern alps, the first they warred against was the southern illyrian tribe the Autariatae


then by the Romans

then by the Goths

and last by the slavs

As I told people before ..........90% of illyrian tribes lived outside of the modern borders of Albania ............the epiCentre of illyrians is in modern northern Bosnia
 
Hello ... This is my first post, and I am not sure if I am even in the correct group. I live in Colorado (US), and I recently received my DNA results. Once of my mtDNA haplogroup values is U5b2a1a-T16311C!, and when I performed a search on it, this group came up. My Y-DNA haplogroup associated with it is J-Z1048. Does any one in this group know what this means?
 
Hello ... This is my first post, and I am not sure if I am even in the correct group. I live in Colorado (US), and I recently received my DNA results. Once of my mtDNA haplogroup values is U5b2a1a-T16311C!, and when I performed a search on it, this group came up. My Y-DNA haplogroup associated with it is J-Z1048. Does any one in this group know what this means?
Welcome to Eupedia AMQ. Have a look here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29157-New-map-of-mtDNA-haplogroup-U5
 
You and the Albanians need to understand the main order of assimilations of the illyrians

first from the celts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Eastern_Europe

Therefore, early Celtic expeditions were concentrated against Illyrian tribes.[3] The first Balkan tribe to be defeated by the Celts was the IllyricAutariatae
The northern Illyrian tribes where assimilated into celtic society starting from 700BC in the eastern alps, the first they warred against was the southern illyrian tribe the Autariatae


then by the Romans

then by the Goths

and last by the slavs

As I told people before ..........90% of illyrian tribes lived outside of the modern borders of Albania ............the epiCentre of illyrians is in modern northern Bosnia

Excellent Sile. Reputation!

I gave as irony, anyhow.

What is important, Illyrian, what we know from scant sources, a lot of Illyrian names are very similar to South Slavic names.

Some Slovenian and other South Slavic researchers according their studies suppose Illyrian is descedant of South Slavic languages.

Someone can say that Illyrian, (and Thracian surely) is similar to Balto Slavic languages, but I think it is not correct that he or she says it is forerunner of Balto-Slavic, or Slavic, or South Slavic.

Because it is natural that Indoeuropean languages Illyrian, Thracian and Balto-Slavic are similar, and roots are common.

...
In 19th century there was Illyrian movement between Croats, Serbs and Bosniacs, scholars proclaimed that these peoples are one nation, Illyrian nation.

It has all the logic, because Illyrians mostly lived in the territory of Croats, Western Serbs and Bosniacs.

But the name of "Jugosloven" or "Jugoslaven" (meaning South Slav) has prevailed over the name of "Ilir".

Even in Bulgaria there was Illyrian ideas.

Slovenian researchers who proclaim that Illyrian is Slovenian have similar logic and they give a lot of arguments, they are serious, but I agree with you, their assumption is not correct.

...
In 20th century Croatian, Serbian and Bosniac idea about Illyrians, took Enver Hoxha, Albanian communist chief.

He pointed out that Illyrians are the ancestors of Albanians, not Croats, Serbs and Bosniacs.

It is strange, if we can have facts what you say that Illyrians lived in the about 10% Albanian territory of the total Illyrian territory, and main part of Illyrian territory was in todays Dalmatia, Bosnia and Panonian plain.

...
But there is big difference between Slovenian and other South Slavic researchers and Albanian researchers.

Slovenian and other South Slavic researchers are independent, their thinking someone can accept someone will reject, but when Enver Hoxha proclaimed that Albanians are descedants of Illyrians it became state project, and nobody could think nothing otherwise, and it entered in school system as "absolute truth".

Result we have, and it is one of reason why we must use irony, sometimes.
...

Illyrians dissapeared as (political, cultural or some other entity.)

Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs etc. have made what they did.

Romanian resarschers give us truth which is obvious.

According Romanian scientists no Illyrian language area survived in the Balkans in time of Romans.

No one of the chronicles in that time doesn't mention any such area.

Enver Hoxha thought, and his researchers digged, and found nothing.

No Illyrian inscriptions, only Latin or Greek, why, because Illyrian language (languages) disappeared.

It is unreal and fictitious that someone can think about imagination that in Albanian mountains during more than the ten centuries (from disapperaing of Illyrians to written appearing of Albanian in 14 century) survived language of which none of chronicles has no notion.

If we speak about facts than we can conclude as Romanian researchers, no Illyirian language area survived in Roman time and it is evidence, the sole the truth.
 
The problem with the so called Illyrians is that the given name is most probably just an exonym just like Thrace is,which is assumed to derive from the base of θράσσω ‎(thrássō, “to trouble, stir”).Thus the enemies of Greeks.
So did the Thracian called themselves this name of course not,nor we know what is the language connection between various tribes from those dubbed as Illyrians later on living in the Roman created province Illyricum.
Don't want to be mean but I can compare this in a pair with Ottoman "ethnographers" when for instance they used a term such is ‎(gāvur) (Turkish gâvur), from Persian گاور ‎(gâvor), a variant of گبر ‎(gabr, “infidel”) for the Christian population.
Albanians from the Ottomans were called-Arnavut,from Slavs-Arbanasi,from Greek-Arvanites.
They themselves call-Sqipthare,since creation of Albania they demand to be called Albanians the former forms they consider derogatory even if called by name they use for themselves.
Every people choose their names we should respect this,but differences should be made between exonym and endonym.
 
Excellent Sile. Reputation!

I gave as irony, anyhow.

What is important, Illyrian, what we know from scant sources, a lot of Illyrian names are very similar to South Slavic names.

Some Slovenian and other South Slavic researchers according their studies suppose Illyrian is descedant of South Slavic languages.

Someone can say that Illyrian, (and Thracian surely) is similar to Balto Slavic languages, but I think it is not correct that he or she says it is forerunner of Balto-Slavic, or Slavic, or South Slavic.

Because it is natural that Indoeuropean languages Illyrian, Thracian and Balto-Slavic are similar, and roots are common.

...
In 19th century there was Illyrian movement between Croats, Serbs and Bosniacs, scholars proclaimed that these peoples are one nation, Illyrian nation.

It has all the logic, because Illyrians mostly lived in the territory of Croats, Western Serbs and Bosniacs.

But the name of "Jugosloven" or "Jugoslaven" (meaning South Slav) has prevailed over the name of "Ilir".

Even in Bulgaria there was Illyrian ideas.

Slovenian researchers who proclaim that Illyrian is Slovenian have similar logic and they give a lot of arguments, they are serious, but I agree with you, their assumption is not correct.

...
In 20th century Croatian, Serbian and Bosniac idea about Illyrians, took Enver Hoxha, Albanian communist chief.

He pointed out that Illyrians are the ancestors of Albanians, not Croats, Serbs and Bosniacs.

It is strange, if we can have facts what you say that Illyrians lived in the about 10% Albanian territory of the total Illyrian territory, and main part of Illyrian territory was in todays Dalmatia, Bosnia and Panonian plain.

...
But there is big difference between Slovenian and other South Slavic researchers and Albanian researchers.

Slovenian and other South Slavic researchers are independent, their thinking someone can accept someone will reject, but when Enver Hoxha proclaimed that Albanians are descedants of Illyrians it became state project, and nobody could think nothing otherwise, and it entered in school system as "absolute truth".

Result we have, and it is one of reason why we must use irony, sometimes.
...

Illyrians dissapeared as (political, cultural or some other entity.)

Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs etc. have made what they did.

Romanian resarschers give us truth which is obvious.

According Romanian scientists no Illyrian language area survived in the Balkans in time of Romans.

No one of the chronicles in that time doesn't mention any such area.

Enver Hoxha thought, and his researchers digged, and found nothing.

No Illyrian inscriptions, only Latin or Greek, why, because Illyrian language (languages) disappeared.

It is unreal and fictitious that someone can think about imagination that in Albanian mountains during more than the ten centuries (from disapperaing of Illyrians to written appearing of Albanian in 14 century) survived language of which none of chronicles has no notion.

If we speak about facts than we can conclude as Romanian researchers, no Illyirian language area survived in Roman time and it is evidence, the sole the truth.
This "Illyrian" ideas among South Slavs survived and developed because they were firstly called by others as such,the romanticist writers and national awakers saw a unity in this name for the South-Slavs,later swap with Yugoslavism,they didn't cared much about names it is political unity-imagined community,if suit one's own agenda can be used with no problems.
 

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