Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

Are you aware of the Slavic origin of the toponyms you placed now at list half if not all of those cultures you mentioned;
Podgorie,Dunavec
or the surrounding villages there Moglice,Dobercan,Peshtan,Osoje etc despite changing the names just like Greece did in what is Greek Macedonia today after border creations;
What should i ask is when did Albanians settled there,when this people become Albanians,how come so obvious Slavic toponyms in territory where you want to trace your origin from? your origin is certainly not from those cultures.


Yes, serbs lived in Greece and Albania before greeks and Albanians. Deretic explain very well this. I am speaking about something happened 7000 years ago.
Also find Ducagjini d'Arbania in this thread and tell us were was your ancestors in that period of time.

P. S.
We have never changed the toponyms. Don't be a liar.
 
Yes, serbs lived in Greece and Albania before greeks and Albanians. Deretic explain very well this. I am speaking about something happened 7000 years ago. Find Ducagjini d'Arbania in this thread and tell us were was your ancestors in that period of time.

P. S.
We have never changed the toponyms. Don't be a liar.
I see Slavic origin of toponyms on the cultures you placed,therefore you can not trace your origin from there in any way,there is no continuity as we can see.
 
Are you aware of the Slavic origin of the toponyms you placed now at list half if not all of those cultures you mentioned;
Podgorie,Dunavec
or the surrounding villages there Moglice,Dobercan,Peshtan,Osoje etc despite changing the names just like Greece did in what is Greek Macedonia today after border creations;
What should i ask is when did Albanians settled there,when this people become Albanians,how come so obvious Slavic toponyms in territory where you want to trace your origin from? your origin is certainly not from those cultures.

nice question..
there's your answer
do the maths yourself (when slavic invasion occured?)

In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius, mentions a location named Arbon (Greek: Ἄρβων; Latinised form: Arbo)[18][19] that was perhaps an island[20] in Liburnia or another location within Illyria. Stephanus of Byzantium, centuries later, cites Polybius, saying it was a city in Illyria and gives an ethnic name (see below) for its inhabitants.


In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map that shows the city of Albanopolis (located Northeast of Durrës) and the tribe of Albanoi,[21] which were viewed as Illyrians by later historians.[22][23][24][25][26]


In the 6th century AD, Stephanus of Byzantium, in his important geographical dictionary entitled Ethnica (Ἐθνικά),[27] mentions a city in Illyria called Arbon (Greek: Ἀρβών), and gives an ethnic name for its inhabitants, in two singular number forms, i.e. Arbonios (Greek: Ἀρβώνιος; pl. Ἀρβώνιοι Arbonioi) and Arbonites (Greek: Ἀρβωνίτης; pl. Ἀρβωνῖται Arbonitai). He cites Polybius[27] (as he does many other times[28][29] in Ethnica).
 
I see Slavic origin of toponyms on the cultures you placed,therefore you can not trace your origin from there in any way,there is no continuity as we can see.

Can you make the etymology of actual capital of Serbia and the second biggest city of Serbia Nis, pls?
 
Can you make the etymology of actual capital of Serbia and the second biggest city of Serbia Nis, pls?
Niš is not capital of Serbia,you don't even know the capital cities of your neighboring countries;
The etymology of the original name Naissos ("city of the nymphs") is derived from a mythical creature of Greek mythology - Naiad (from the Greek νάειν, "to flow," and νᾶμα, "running water") which was the nymph of freshwater streams rivers and lakes. Niš (Serbian Cyrillic: Ниш, pronounced is a possible location of Nysa, a mythical place in Greek mythology where the young god Dionysus was raised.
This place is also a birth place to a great emperor of Thraco-Illyrian origin Constantine the Great.
 
Are you aware of the Slavic origin of the toponyms you placed now at list half if not all of those cultures you mentioned;
Podgorie,Dunavec
or the surrounding villages there Moglice,Dobercan,Peshtan,Osoje etc despite changing the names
What should i ask is when did Albanians settled there,when this people become Albanians,how come so obvious Slavic toponyms in territory where you want to trace your origin from? your origin is certainly not from those cultures.

Dimwit, those cultures were named after the modern toponyms.
 
Niš is not capital of Serbia,you don't even know the capital cities of your neighboring countries;
The etymology of the original name Naissos ("city of the nymphs") is derived from a mythical creature of Greek mythology - Naiad (from the Greek νάειν, "to flow," and νᾶμα, "running water") which was the nymph of freshwater streams rivers and lakes. Niš (Serbian Cyrillic: Ниш, pronounced is a possible location of Nysa, a mythical place in Greek mythology where the young god Dionysus was raised.
This place is also a birth place to a great emperor of Thraco-Illyrian origin Constantine the Great.
Can you make the etymology of actual capital of Serbia and the second biggest city of Serbia Nis, pls?
Of course i know. Belgrade the capital and Nish the second biggest city of Serbia.
 
Of course i know. Belgrade the capital and Nish the second biggest city of Serbia.
Then i don't know why you asking about etymology of the city it is derrived from Bel=White and Grad=fortress,city,enclosure etc thus in present day language the meaning will be white city,you have present day Berat in south-central Albania that was once called Belgrad with the same etymology.
All this suggest strong Slavic presence in the area in medieval times,how they become Albanian i don't even want to mention the pressure of irregular Ottoman army bashi-bazouks and similar groups consisted of Albanians were doing on the Christians or non-Albanians at some period of time,should i mention the atrocities of Ali Pasha on that region destruction of the very prosperous Vlach city of Moskopolje which is remembered to this day,people had no other choice there as they were unarmed against an armed groups.
In the region you live the very south of Albania were living the Vajunites or Vojnitsi meaning "soldiers" the territory they was later named after them as Vagenetia. Many toponyms in the region of northern Epirus (modern-day southern Albania) still have names received by the name of this tribe.
The name of Vanegetia survived until at least the 13th century.Similar toponyms like Viyanite or Viyantije survived until the 16th century when they were replaced with the name Delvinë which also became an official name of the Ottoman sanjak of Delvina.The territory around the river Aoös (or Vojuša/Vjosë, today in southern Albania) was probably also named after this tribe,Shushice(river) Bistrice(river) Selenice,Novosele,Bogove,Leskovik further south Konitsa might be in Greek side near mount Smolikas etc
 
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Dimwit, those cultures were named after the modern toponyms.
There is no Albanian language continuity in that region it's very obvious,therefore i doubt you can trace your origin from there.
 
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Sorry for the delayed reply, I've been very busy lately, so I can't give as much time to reply in full in here, but I'll try to summarize my points:

- In my opinion, Illyria (Roman Illyria, I should specify) did not speak a homogenous language. Therefore, to say Illyrian was a language (singular) is wrong, and it would be better to speak of Illyrian languagues. One of these Paleo-Balkan languages was the ancestor of Albanian, for sure, but which one it was is impaired on the one hand by the sparse material of the Paleo-Balkan languages, and on the other hand, by the large amounts of loanwords in Albanian (by far the most are from Latin, but there's also a share of ancient Greek, migration-period-era Germanic, medieval Slavic and most recently, Ottoman Turkish), which means the corpus of native (Proto-)Albanian words is relatively small.

For the ancient Paleo-Balkan languages, I would say this:
- Liburnian in my opinion, for sure, was a Centum language aligned with the Italic languages (the sound shift *bh-, *dh-, *gh- to *f-, f-, h- is attested).
- I agree that the development *bh > *b, *dh > *d, and *gh > *g does not rule out the ancestry of Albanian, but it also doesn't narrow it down, for such a development occurs also in Celtic, Germanic and Balto-Slavic.
- the idea that *d- in ancient names represents a dental fricative (reflex of palatovelars in Albanian) has a merit, in my opinion.
- the *n > *r sound shift (a type of rhotacism) does only occur in Tosk Albanian, not in Gheg Albanian, and it must be a relatively late development, because clearly Latin loanwords are subject to it (femina > femër, vinum > verë). In my opinion, the *n > *r rhotacism can't be a feature of original Proto-Albanian.

That's all for the moment. :)

It's absolutely logical that Albanian have 75-95% Loanwords, because it's a very old Languages, of the Albanian would be younger, they would not say today "per mu" like te italians, spanic and french "per me" "por mi " "pour moi", and its logical that this words was adopted from the latin language.
The "Illyrians" was from today northern Greece till Slovenia, a big area, of course they had not one same structure of speaking. If you just watch 2 villages, you will find differences in her language.. And it could be very simpel like to the germans what before just means "free people"...then maybe it makes sens that "i lir" "the free" the basic of the word "illirians" is .....where not dominated the languaged or "ethnicity"/ "tribe"...And maybe is "illyrians" a word from outside "illyria".

I say, forget the "names", and just look the element.....but some people who speak about albanian languages, did it because it's called "albanian", not because of the language itself, which is the a sociological DNS
 
I think i did answer your question but you must not have read right. Pal Engjelli,castriota.marin barleti.they all ghegs an all who left albania.Your question is answered right their vlla..You said basicly the people of arbreshe an arbantie mind you ARBON<<GHEG are all tosks.who speak tosk..so now my question what happen to the gheg dilect of arbreshe an arbanite?Im very albanian my surname is more albanian than albanian vlla it is proto albanian infact.DEM.Im doing what albanians should do speak the truth.The problem is that albanians can not agree on 1 thing.i am telling you know as i said proto albanians come from northern albania we did border with romanian at one point.an our language was influenced by latina an greek.The reason why im not albanian is because im not tosk like most of use hear an you dont want to hea anything what a gheg speaks.I am sorry i make you mad but you dont agree with what i say because of land issues..clearly you you disagree with me because i am talking about gheg,an you cant answer my questions at all but be negitive because i am speaking of albanian gheg who have a right that was lost but the arigance of tosk albanians,,as my father said tosks are arrigant.an one last thing i reallydont care if people dont think im albanian infact makes me lough.my name isnt armet or mehmet.its pure shqypni




Its very suspect what you speak, no joke, its trange, because tosk is a dialect, did really people speak or feal in and about "tosk and "geg" like you? where you come from? name of village?....im very wunder about what you say....but when you say that you father thinks in this structure, then i understand you. But you should know, that this is veryyyyyy.....strange, i really ask myself if you or high or somethink like that....
 
It's absolutely logical that Albanian have 75-95% Loanwords, because it's a very old Languages, of the Albanian would be younger, they would not say today "per mu" like te italians, spanic and french "per me" "por mi " "pour moi", and its logical that this words was adopted from the latin language.
The "Illyrians" was from today northern Greece till Slovenia, a big area, of course they had not one same structure of speaking. If you just watch 2 villages, you will find differences in her language.. And it could be very simpel like to the germans what before just means "free people"...then maybe it makes sens that "i lir" "the free" the basic of the word "illirians" is .....where not dominated the languaged or "ethnicity"/ "tribe"...And maybe is "illyrians" a word from outside "illyria".

In my opinion, there's a twofold problem of linking Albanian "lirë" (free) with the name "Illyria". The first issue is that the ancient name is consistently written with an "y" (which to me suggests that it was probably transmitted through Greek), and not with an "i". I'd also like to point out the geminated "ll". Granted, modern (20th century, mind you) orthography uses the digraph "ll" to represent the "dark" (belted) "l", but in my opinion its rather clear that this is a relatively recent development in Albanian, for it also occurs in Latin loanwords. The other issue is that you have a rather similar word in Latin ("liber") and the Romance languages (e.g. French "libre"). So, in my opinion, "lirë" probably is a Latin loanword.
 
In my opinion, there's a twofold problem of linking Albanian "lirë" (free) with the name "Illyria". The first issue is that the ancient name is consistently written with an "y" (which to me suggests that it was probably transmitted through Greek), and not with an "i". I'd also like to point out the geminated "ll". Granted, modern (20th century, mind you) orthography uses the digraph "ll" to represent the "dark" (belted) "l", but in my opinion its rather clear that this is a relatively recent development in Albanian, for it also occurs in Latin loanwords. The other issue is that you have a rather similar word in Latin ("liber") and the Romance languages (e.g. French "libre"). So, in my opinion, "lirë" probably is a Latin loanword.


there are 2 theories that the word derives either from i-lire=free+ jan=are or yll=star + jan=are ,
i beileve so the 2nd theory YLL(star)+JAN(are)=ylljan,yllijan,yllirjan,yllirian,illyrian, meaning people of stars.
and i beleive this theory because the same meaning we have about the word hellenes. (YLL,ELL)
 
there are people on this thread that keep thinking that modern is the same as what ancient was ..................they will never learn.

Languages continually evolve
 
In my opinion, there's a twofold problem of linking Albanian "lirë" (free) with the name "Illyria". The first issue is that the ancient name is consistently written with an "y" (which to me suggests that it was probably transmitted through Greek), and not with an "i". I'd also like to point out the geminated "ll". Granted, modern (20th century, mind you) orthography uses the digraph "ll" to represent the "dark" (belted) "l", but in my opinion its rather clear that this is a relatively recent development in Albanian, for it also occurs in Latin loanwords. The other issue is that you have a rather similar word in Latin ("liber") and the Romance languages (e.g. French "libre"). So, in my opinion, "lirë" probably is a Latin loanword.
Agree they were called Iλλυριοί,Illyrioi,i have question for you Taranis on the etymology of their name;could their name be composed of Ancient Greek λύρα (lyra) a lyre whether the "Il" will be preffix,i don't know much about Greek preffixes but for example in Latin illūminātum, supine of illūminō ‎(“lighten, light up, show off”), from in + lūminō ‎(“light up”) Il is preffix,further etymology like this make sense to me is because the region where the Illyrians were living to this day the λύρα (lyra) is being played and it's epic singers are compared to Homer Aoidos by many scholars,the Lyra has stong culture presence in Montenegro,Bosnia parts of Croatia,Serbia and Northern Albania.

A "Guslar" playing to a group of people most probably Herzegovina or Montenegro.
Guslar_v.jpg
 
There is no Albanian language continuity in that region it's very obvious,therefore i doubt you can trace your origin from there.

Susaj glup ko kurac, you shouldn't participate in such threads when you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. Watch from the sidelines, dimwit.
 
Agree they were called Iλλ?…ριοί,Illyrioi,i have question for you Taranis on the etymology of their name;could their name be composed of Ancient Greek λύρα (lyra) a lyre whether the "Il" will be preffix,i don't know much about Greek preffixes but for example in Latin illūminātum, supine of illūminō ?€Ž(?€œlighten, light up, show off?€?), from in + lūminō ?€Ž(?€œlight up?€?) Il is preffix,further etymology like this make sense to me is because the region where the Illyrians were living to this day the λύρα (lyra) is being played and it's epic singers are compared to Homer Aoidos by many scholars,the Lyra has stong culture presence in Montenegro,Bosnia parts of Croatia,Serbia and Northern Albania.

A "Guslar" playing to a group of people most probably Herzegovina or Montenegro.


There is a big Problem on the Balkan, 2 centurys of slawization and hellenization of the element which we know today "Albanian" and "Aromun", and in common the "nationalisation" of the Balkan Population.


The Typical Lahuta (serb Gusla) and the Epic Songs are from the element of the "albanians" and her Highland Culture. Its absolutely normal that also people play in Montenegro, some big Albanian tribe are slavizated and call herself today Montenegrins. The mostly old MOntenegrons, know still the Name of her albanian tribe.


In the Viyalet of Kosovo, the albanian Played Lahuta so much and sang her epic songs about heroizem, belive and love, what led always to rebellions, and the sultan had need to ban the Lahute for 200 years from the whole Viyalet.
 
Agree they were called Iλλυριοί,Illyrioi,i have question for you Taranis on the etymology of their name

I would say that any etymology is speculative. However, I would like to make two points regarding the name "Illyria". The first issue is that Classical Greek "y" represents an earlier /u/ sound (in modern Greek, the letter is pronounced as /i/). This gives us a stem "illur". The other issue is the geminated "ll", which to me suggests that you have an earlier different consonant (an "s", for example). So the original stem would have been maybe *islur- (certainly not *ilir-).
 
There is a big Problem on the Balkan, 2 centurys of slawization and hellenization of the element which we know today "Albanian" and "Aromun", and in common the "nationalisation" of the Balkan Population.


The Typical Lahuta (serb Gusla) and the Epic Songs are from the element of the "albanians" and her Highland Culture. Its absolutely normal that also people play in Montenegro, some big Albanian tribe are slavizated and call herself today Montenegrins. The mostly old MOntenegrons, know still the Name of her albanian tribe.


In the Viyalet of Kosovo, the albanian Played Lahuta so much and sang her epic songs about heroizem, belive and love, what led always to rebellions, and the sultan had need to ban the Lahute for 200 years from the whole Viyalet.
I asked a question to the admin who as well know many things about linguistics,in my post i haven't said where origins of the instrument are or something similar i just listed the regions where is played as you can see the word Lyra come from Greek yet again i need to deal with some phantom culture that exist i guess only in your mindset,it is interesting enough that all the time you talk about some nationalism but you preach it mostly as can be seen by previous comments of your compatriots,you want to tell me people as far Lika in Croatia are Albanians? or people in Bosnia are Albanians,Herzegovina,Montenegro?
Generation of scholars Milman Parry,Albert Lord working on the Homeric question oral poetry was going in Bosnia,Serbia,Montenegro or the book for example Guslar and Aoidos: Traditional Register in South Slavic and Homeric Epic John Miles Foley and many more... or when the Mexican philolog Roberto Salinas Price working on Homeric question try to locate Troy on the Dalmatian coast and even said that Illiad and Odysey were originaly written in Slavic,no one make big deal of this but was sharply criticize by then Yugoslav scholars.
In Slavic is derived from the Proto-Slavic verb *gǫsti, "to play (an instrument)", cf. Old Church Slavonic гѫсти thus Gusle,In my region we don't play much of a Gusle but Gajda (bagpipe) more instead yet we don't claim we gave this to Irish,you even use a Latin word from Lute-Lahuta,you share this with others ok?quick link from wikipedia gave me the region Malësi e Madhe District in north Albania where this is played where population is traditionaly mixed from Serbs and Albanians yet you are saying in Kosovo was banned by Sultan how was not banned in Montenegro?weird ban enough when they were allies.
Malësi e Madhe District from where all Montenegrins,most Croats,Serbs,Bosnians have their roots and their Gusle is coming (y)
320px-Mal%C3%ABsi_e_Madhe_District.svg.png
 
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There's a few issues I wanted to comment on here:

homer said ''hellenes learned writting and building etc from pelasgians''
pelasgians illyrians macedonians etc were called barbarians from ancient greek historians. right taranis?

You may be confusing Homer and Herodotus, and the Pelasgians and the Phoenicians, right there. The ancient Greeks learned the alphabet from the Phoenicians, which is something that they themselves were actually aware of. As Herodotus says in his Histories:

(Book 5, chapter 58)


"Now the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus, and to whom the Gephyraei belonged, introduced into Greece upon their arrival a great variety of arts, among the rest that of writing, whereof the Greeks till then had, as I think, been ignorant. And originally they shaped their letters exactly like all the other Phoenicians, but afterwards, in course of time, they changed by degrees their language, and together with it the form likewise of their characters."


"Οἱ δὲ Φοίνικες οὗτοι οἱ σὺν Κάδμῳ ἀπικόμενοι, τῶν ἦσαν οἱ Γεφυραῖοι, ἄλλα τε πολλὰ οἰκήσαντες ταύτην τὴν χώρην ἐσήγαγον διδασκάλια ἐς τοὺς Ἕλληνας καὶ δὴ καὶ γράμματα, οὐκ ἐόντα πρὶν Ἕλλησι ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκέειν, πρῶτα μὲν τοῖσι καὶ ἅπαντες χρέωνται Φοίνικες· μετὰ δὲ χρόνου προβαίνοντος ἅμα τῇ φωνῇ μετέβαλλον καὶ τὸν ῥυθμὸν τῶν γραμμάτων."

Another writing system (Linear B) existed previously to write Greek, but that writing system became extinct with the Bronze Age collapse (which resulted in the so-called "Greek Dark Ages"). Indeed, as per the above quote, Herodotus seems to be unaware that Linear B had even existed.

again we can find pelasgians fighting on the side of the trojans against hellenes in ILIADA(if that war ever happened)

The "Iliad" derives from the name "Ilion" (Ιλιον), which is an alternate name for the city of Troy. In any case, in the Greek dark ages, the name would have been pronounced as "Wilion" (Ϝιλιον), and the /w/ sound of Greek was (largely) lost by the time that the Greeks adapted the alphabet from the Phoenicians. It should be noted that a clearly related name, Wiluša,is found in Hittite sources. As you can see, there is no relationship whatsoever with Illyria (you do have a clear link with Bronze Age Anatolia, however!).

barbarian for hellenes= PEOPLE WHO SPEAK DIFFERENT LANGUAGE .

so what language do you personally think those people were using?

of course we don't know absolutely certain about how and when things happened in the past.
but nobody can argue me about the meaning of the words of lemnos steele
( i can translate it for you if you're so curious mate, WORD BY WORD and not with hypothetical theories)

Well, all I am seeing is a language clearly related with Etruscan. By the way, Lemnos is not anywhere near Illyria or the Adriatic, but in the Aegaean (as a matter of fact, it happens to be close to the archaeological site of Troy/Ilion). So, I don't see how this would be related with this dicussion. You are of course free to start a separate discussion about Lemnian and/or Etruscan in a different thread, but I do think this does not belong into this discussion (which is about the possible relationship between the Illyrian language(s) and modern Albanian).
 

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