Illyrian and Albanian - a linguistic approach

[LAB]

There's a few issues I wanted to comment on here:





homer lived around 850-1100BC according to greek historians.
the hellenes ''adopted'' their alphabet on 800BC
herodotus lived on 4 CBE
i'm not confusing anything. do the maths

as for homer's works most scholars agree that underwent a process of standartisation and refinement out of older material beginning the time of the new alphabet adoption
an important role played athenian tyrant hipparchus who reformed the recitation of homeric poetry at the panathenaic festival 500BC
at this reform was involved the production of a canonical written text. (translation?! who knows)

yes it is clearly related with etruscan. they were writing from right to left with the same alphabet.
some of the words of lemnos steele
lem,steele-albanian=english
ZI- ZI=grief,black
MARAZ- MARAZ=anguish
MAF- MAF=black veil
ZI APK- ZI HAPE=gief you gave(opened)
FEIS A FIS - FISeVE A FIS=to the kindred oh! kinsman
SI FAi- SI FAJ=for what fault
TAF -TAFT=throne
AR- AR=gold
FAMA-FAMA=fame
TIKH-THIK=knife
O AR AI- O I ART AI= oh! of gold he was
LOT-LOT=tear
etc,etc,etc

yeah right. i'm off topic.
most of the posts in this thread talking about albanians from kaukasus are not off topic.

it is a quite interesting thread, although i haven't seen if anyone mentionted anything about the illyrian gods names and if they're related with albanian language
common words can change easily but gods names not

 

[Sile]

it is a quite interesting thread, although i haven't seen if anyone mentionted anything about the illyrian gods names and if they're related with albanian language
common words can change easily but gods names not

I have as illyrian Gods

Vidasus and Thana .................both from illyrian Pannonia ....................what can you tell me of these?

from modern Croatia .....there are these Illyrian Gods .........Bind and Latra and Medaur

 

[Taranis]

homer lived around 850-1100BC according to greek historians.
the hellenes ''adopted'' their alphabet on 800BC
herodotus lived on 4 CBE
i'm not confusing anything. do the maths

Well, from an archaeological perspective it can't be disputed that there was a (circa) 250-300 year period during which the Greek people were iliterate, and that the Greeks adapted their writing system from the Phoenicians (a Semitic people, who spoke a language closely related with Hebrew).

as for homer's works most scholars agree that underwent a process of standartisation and refinement out of older material beginning the time of the new alphabet adoption
an important role played athenian tyrant hipparchus who reformed the recitation of homeric poetry at the panathenaic festival 500BC
at this reform was involved the production of a canonical written text. (translation?! who knows)

Sorry, but Homer's Iliad is clearly a fictional work. It seems to be inspired by historical events (that took place during the Bronze Age Collapse), but its a fictional work.

yes it is clearly related with etruscan. they were writing from right to left with the same alphabet.
some of the words of lemnos steele
lem,steele-albanian=english
ZI- ZI=grief,black
MARAZ- MARAZ=anguish
MAF- MAF=black veil
ZI APK- ZI HAPE=gief you gave(opened)
FEIS A FIS - FISeVE A FIS=to the kindred oh! kinsman
SI FAi- SI FAJ=for what fault
TAF -TAFT=throne
AR- AR=gold
FAMA-FAMA=fame
TIKH-THIK=knife
O AR AI- O I ART AI= oh! of gold he was
LOT-LOT=tear
etc,etc,etc

I suspect that you should read Raymond Brown's debellatio of Lemnian-as-Albanian, because you're making the same errors. Notably that you read Digamma Ϝ (W!) as Latin "f", Lambda Λ as "p" and that you variably read Sigma Σ and Zeta Ζ as "s" or "z". How can you claim that you can translate the Lemnos stele "word by word" if you can't even properly read the Greek alphabet?

http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Eteocretan/LemnianTrans.html

You might also want to check out the other "translations", notably the "Turkic" one (because that is on the same level of ridiculous as reading it as Albanian).

yeah right. i'm off topic.
most of the posts in this thread talking about albanians from kaukasus are not off topic.

Well, I have addressed Caucasian Albania earlier. I will agree with Garrick, however, that the hypothesis that the Albanians migrated from somewhere else has some merit, as it is a logical alternative if one says that (Proto-)Albanian was not native to the Balkans in Roman times. Wether it is actually accurate is another question.

 

[LAB]

From the book "The Illyrians" by Aleksandar Stipcevic

Enji - He was the god of fire & war. He's equivalent in Greek & roman mythology might be Ares/Mars. He's equivalent in the Norse mythology is Thor. It is from this god that our week day e enjte (Thursday) comes from. This is interesting since Thursday in Germanic languages, is named after Thor/Thur, the god of war. Obviously, Enji must've been important to our people since we named a week day after him!

Prema - She was the goddess of fertility/birth. Her equivalent in the Greek mythology is Demeter. She is also honored with a week-day; e premte (friday). This is also interesting since the Germanic people have also named Friday after their fertility goddess, freya; examples are Freitag in German, Fredag in Scandinavian languages and Friday in the English language.

Anzotica - This was a goddess that in terms of belief, seems to have been restricted to the Illyrian tribe of the Liburnae. She's the Illyrian equivalent of Aphrodite/Venus! I believe that the middle of her name, Anzotica, is clearly connected with our word zot, god!

Ica/Ika - Another goddess of the Illyrians. I'm not quite sure what this goddess stood for. And could it be that her etymology is related to our word ika or ikje (flee or flight)?

Bindus - The god of water, the equivalent of Poseidon or Neptune. This god was especially worshipped by the Illyrians of the Iapod tribe (Japod?t).

Vidasus - Like Bindus, this Illyrian god was also the protector of water-sources. Apparently, he was always in company with the goddess of hunting (our equivalent to Artemis), Thana.

Thana - She was the goddess of hunting. I suspect that the etymology of her name is connected to our word tharje, i.e. withering, death. Afterall, hunting means death (of animals), so it wouldn't be surprising if that's where her name originates from. This, in turn, can be connected to the Greek word thanatos, death.

Dualos - The god/goddess of whine. It's clearly connected to our word dejur - to be drunk! This in turn, is of an old IE-root, since the word is also present in old Gothic, dwals, which has the same meaning as dejur!

Surd - The god of wheather. I'm just wildly speculating here, but wheather/wind equals to noice, and sometimes bad noice. Noice of high level in turn can make us deaf; could it be that it's from here that our word shurdh?r (deaf) stems from? We often use the term 'mos m? shurdho' when our ears hurts from an example, screaming ... ?? Or is it a Latin loan-word?


p.s
the word bind has the same meaning in albanian as it has in english language. so we call bindus the person who knows to bind.
bindus-he who binds
mashtrus-he who deceits
ETC
bth the word ''BINDUS'' can be found carved in a cave somewhere in south albania today.

vidasus maybe derives from the word 'vija=the line' 'vi=line' the word vi it's used for artificial waterways

 

[Sile]

Well, from an archaeological perspective it can't be disputed that there was a (circa) 250-300 year period during which the Greek people were iliterate, and that the Greeks adapted their writing system from the Phoenicians (a Semitic people, who spoke a language closely related with Hebrew).


.

where the phoenicians semetic at that time ?...............we know Anatolia with the Hatti, Hittite, Hurrian and Luwain languages where all non-semetic languages

 

[Sile]

From the book "The Illyrians" by Aleksandar Stipcevic



Bindus - The god of water, the equivalent of Poseidon or Neptune. This god was especially worshipped by the Illyrians of the Iapod tribe (Japod?t).

Vidasus - Like Bindus, this Illyrian god was also the protector of water-sources. Apparently, he was always in company with the goddess of hunting (our equivalent to Artemis), Thana.

Thana - She was the goddess of hunting. I suspect that the etymology of her name is connected to our word tharje, i.e. withering, death. Afterall, hunting means death (of animals), so it wouldn't be surprising if that's where her name originates from. This, in turn, can be connected to the Greek word thanatos, death.



p.s
the word bind has the same meaning in albanian as it has in english language. so we call bindus the person who knows to bind.
bindus-he who binds
mashtrus-he who deceits
ETC
bth the word ''BINDUS'' can be found carved in a cave somewhere in south albania today.

vidasus maybe derives from the word 'vija=the line' 'vi=line' the word vi it's used for artificial waterways

iapod or japod is illyrian tribe in northern croatia

as I said with the others they are from northern illyrian tribes from pannonia ( which is know modern Hungary )

the findings are the oldest and always from the north

 

[LAB]

Well, from an archaeological perspective it can't be disputed that there was a (circa) 250-300 year period during which the Greek people were iliterate, and that the Greeks adapted their writing system from the Phoenicians (a Semitic people, who spoke a language closely related with Hebrew).



Sorry, but Homer's Iliad is clearly a fictional work. It seems to be inspired by historical events (that took place during the Bronze Age Collapse), but its a fictional work.



I suspect that you should read Raymond Brown's debellatio of Lemnian-as-Albanian, because you're making the same errors. Notably that you read Digamma Ϝ (W!) as Latin "f", Lambda Λ as "p" and that you variably read Sigma Σ and Zeta Ζ as "s" or "z". How can you claim that you can translate the Lemnos stele "word by word" if you can't even properly read the Greek alphabet?


You might also want to check out the other "translations", notably the "Turkic" one (because that is on the same level of ridiculous as reading it as Albanian).



Well, I have addressed Caucasian Albania earlier. I will agree with Garrick, however, that the hypothesis that the Albanians migrated from somewhere else has some merit, as it is a logical alternative if one says that (Proto-)Albanian was not native to the Balkans in Roman times. Wether it is actually accurate is another question.

as i said above the greek alphabet adopted by greeks on 8 CBE
they estimate lemnos steele around 6CBE.
i don't think that THAT TIME it took only 200 years to be spreaded in an island too far from athens.

i gave you a sample of the translation word by word of the steele.as you can see some words are the same or almost the same in albanian.
you look only the alphabet and you're loosing the meaning.
when someone reads the translation of lemnos steele in english through albanian language as raymond brown did it seems to have many errors.
the same thing happens even today. if you take a text in greek f.e and tranlate it in english word by word it won't be the same b/c you'll loose the meaning.
the first words are not ''grief and grief'' but
''grief AH! grief'' or ''grief is grief''
after that he writes
ZI ARKH?? it's ZI APK on the steele. where did he found the zi arkh? FFS!!
i think raymond brown is ridiculus. and who the H is raymond brown?

the letter 'A' in albanian language today it's either an interjection (A I ZIU UNE=ah! grief i am) or it meens ''IS'' in gheg dialekt.
anyway i won't accept from someone who has not an idea about albanian language to judge if it's ridiculus or not.
you should do the same b/c neither you have an idea about albanian. you only see alphabets like that time people had schools and all of them where well educated.


p.s SILE only that you had to say? i gave you some illyrian gods and some possible etymological explanation through albanian language.
do the same in slavic language or in bosnian or in croatian (if they're not the same) and let's see which language can approach them better.

 

[Sile]

p.s SILE only that you had to say? i gave you some illyrian gods and some possible etymological explanation through albanian language.
do the same in slavic language or in bosnian or in croatian (if they're not the same) and let's see which language can approach them better.

You fail to realise like all the rest, that Illyrian is neither albanian nor slav ...........the people are extinct.

Do you realise the illyrian where first absorbed in celtic society , then later Roman society, then later gothic society .................all these are before any albanian or slav .

Albanians and slavs cannot claim any identity to an extinct people called Illyrians............

 

[Taranis]

as i said above the greek alphabet adopted by greeks on 8 CBE
they estimate lemnos steele around 6CBE.
i don't think that THAT TIME it took only 200 years to be spreaded in an island too far from athens.

i gave you a sample of the translation word by word of the steele.as you can see some words are the same or almost the same in albanian.
you look only the alphabet and you're loosing the meaning.
when someone reads the translation of lemnos steele in english through albanian language as raymond brown did it seems to have many errors.
the same thing happens even today. if you take a text in greek f.e and tranlate it in english word by word it won't be the same b/c you'll loose the meaning.
the first words are not ''grief and grief'' but
''grief AH! grief'' or ''grief is grief''
after that he writes
ZI ARKH?? it's ZI APK on the steele. where did he found the zi arkh? FFS!!
i think raymond brown is ridiculus. and who the H is raymond brown?

the letter 'A' in albanian language today it's either an interjection (A I ZIU UNE=ah! grief i am) or it meens ''IS'' in gheg dialekt.
anyway i won't accept from someone who has not an idea about albanian language to judge if it's ridiculus or not.
you should do the same b/c neither you have an idea about albanian. you only see alphabets like that time people had schools and all of them where well educated.

As you said yourself, the Lemnos stelae is estimated to be from the 6th century BC. You're making a number of leaps there that I would say every linguist will agree are completely unfounded: first, that you ad-hoc assume the language in the Lemnos Stelae must be Albanian, second that you assume that Albanian would be unchanged for a time period of some 2600 years. Given that we have languages that are attested across an even longer period, its very clear that languages change substantially across the time. Greek in particular has the longest attested history of any Indo-European language, and another good example of a language with a very long history is Ancient Egyptian - both show substantial development across the milennia. I don't have to go that far, if I look at my own mother tongue, German, if I compare the German of one Walter von der Vogelweide (medieval German poet) or the German of Martin Luther with modern German, there's a considerable differences and development that took place. You can do the same for English if you compare modern English with that of Shakespeare's works or the Beowulf epic, its clear that English has evolved considerably in the meantime. Even the English of America's founding fathers sounded very different from contemporary American English - we know that in particular because Benjamin Franklin in his day invented a phonetic alphabet. In summary, there is no good reason to assume that (Proto-)Albanian in the 6th century BC would be anywhere similar to modern Albanian. If you look at how Latin loanwords in Albanian are shifted, for example Lat. "argentum" > Alb. "argjend" (by the way, you actually 'read' the word "ar" in the Lemnos stelae, which is actually a Latin loanword - it is derived from Latin "aurum"!), its very clear that ancient Albanian would have been very different. Also, why should we expect Albanian to be found in the Aegaean, far away from Albania (and how does this even relate with Illyria?? - in my opinion, it is not related at all, unless of course you invoke the Illyro-Pelasgian fantasies out of the Albanian-Nationalist playbook)?


The next issue is, again, that you evidently cannot read Greek. What you are doing is read letters that look like Latin letters (to be fair, Latin "F" actually derives ultimately from the Greek Digamma (Ϝ), but the latter actually represented /w/, not /f/). And you're reading variably the letter Sigma (Σ) as "s" or "z" as you see fit (the owner of the website I sent you the article of, who analyses someone who makes a very similar claim to your own, observes similar arbitrary moves there, too).


What you are doing, verily, is not 'decipher' the Lemnos stelae, but what you're doing is picking random words - even ripping them apart (bear in mind that the Lemnos stelae uses signs akin to ":" to mark the boundaries between words) because they look similar to words in (modern!) Albanian, there for it should be read as "ziazi" (ζιαζι) and not "zi a zi" as you do. Likewise, it should be read "sialχweiz" (σιαλψϝειζ) not "zi apk...". You have no good reason for doing what you're doing.


Why - if you consider all these issues (each one by themselves would be more than sufficient to bring your case apart) - should we take your (or anybody else's) "translation" of the Lemnos stelae as Albanian serious? I certainly do not. From the perspective of research, it is obviously a predicament that we do not have the extensive ancient evidence for Albanian as we have for other languages (e.g. Greek), but that fact does not give anybody the license for charlatanry or thinly-veiled nationalist fantasies.

 

[LAB]

-SILE
yes i agree illyrians are extinct. both slavs and albanians can claim their descendancy from them for the reason that illyria was a tribe including both countries.
but what we're doing here is an approachment to the words those people were using.
as you saw their gods names can be explained through albanian language. and it would wise for you to study a little bit albanian language before you make conclusions.
i've no idea about their explanation in slavic. if someone has something similar in other languages it would be great to post it here.
i've read somewhere that some of their words(not gods names) are related to romanian language. but i've no clue about romanian so i can't judge.


-TARANIS
i'll say to you what i've said to SILE. before you make conclusions study some albanian first.
the funny thing about albanian-illyrian-pelasgian fantasies is that those theories first developed 200-300 years ago and guess what. NOT by albanians, but from linguists from france,germany,austria etc. albanians woke up only after the fall of communism.
i agree that some parts of translation of the steele don't fit even for me that i'm not a linguist. f.e the translation of the ''th'' and ''h''
but despite those parts of the lemnos steele translation the theory of A-I-P is not based only there that's why in albanians eyes it's a theory that could stand.
these are some ''homeriK''(ancient greek better) words, with their meaning in modern greek and modern albanian
M.ALB. -HOMERIK - M-GREEK - ENGL.
are,ara - ARURA - horafi - field
bashke - VASK - vadizo - march
dera - THIRA - porta - door
deti - THETI-S - thalassa - sea
dru - DRIS,DRITI- ksilo - wood
dhe - IDHE - ke (και) - and
ene - ENIMI - endyma - garment
erret - EREVOS - skotos - dark
ethe - ETHIR - piretos - fever
flas - FLIO - omilo - talk
frym - FRIMAO - anapneo - breath
hedh - HEO - rihno - throw
iki - IKO - fevgo - i leave
kal - KELIS TOS - alogo,ippos - horse
korr - KIRO - therizo - harvest
krye - KRITHEN - kefali - head
lehem - LEHO - gienieme - birth
lepur - LEPORIS - lagos - rabbit
lesh - LASIOS - mallia - hair
loz -LIZO - pezo - play
lutem - LITOME - parakalo - i pray
marr - MAR PTO - perno - take
marre - MARGOS - mourlos - lunatic,nuts
mend,mendoj - MENDOHEM - medhome,skeftomai - i think
mi - MIS - pontiki - mouse
ne (neve) - NOI - emis - we
udh- UDHOS - odos -road,street
vane - VAN - pigan - they went
zien - ZEI - vrazi - boil
ETC ETC ETC


and here you have the etymological explanations of the ''greek'' mythology (i doubt about that b/c they were mentioned from homer so they're pre-hellenic)
even though their explanation from greek and ancient greek language are just RUBBISH. for many of them they don't even have an explanation. (artemis,hades etc)


EREBUS- symbolizes darkness, you can find the root from the word ERRET wich means dark in albanian.
URANUS- symbolizes the sky, in modern greek it's exactly the same word (ΟΥΡΑΝΟΣ, look at that!! words should change!!!) you can find the root from here I-VRAN-OS, means the place of clouds.
ATHENA- the goddess of wisdom and inspiration you can find the root in albanian here E THENA which means wise word, the primary root is from the ancient god of egypt THOT
thot in modern albanian means speak,say (un them, ai thot, ato thone,etc)
NEMESIS- the spirit of divine, you can find the root in albanian here NE-MES which means in half, equal pieces
HADES- the god of underworld, the root in albanian from HA=EAT + DES=DIE
ARTEMIS- the goddess of hunting and wildland, the root in albanian from ART=ART + MISH=MEAT
DEMETER- the goddess of harvest and of earth, the root in albanian here DHE= LAND,EARTH + MITER=WOMB (mother earth in few words)
APHRODITE- goddess of beaty,love,desire, the root here, AFER=NEAR,CLOSE + DITA=DAY
HERA- goddess of wind. the root from ERA=WIND
ZEUS- god of sky,weather,thunder roots from ZOT=GOD + DHEU=THE EARTH ''Zot i dhEUSit''
RHEA- daughter of GAIA (=earth) and URANUS (=sky) the root here RE=CLOUDS


i can write about all of them but i don't have to proove anything since you can't speak albanian or greek at least.
and before someone replies about the greek explanations let me say that i've studied in athens and lived there many years so i know everything about the language.and definetely i can say that greek explanations are wrong.WITHOUT MEANING


apart from those explanations from mythology and ancient greek words there are many more things to connect albanian language with pelasgian. it's quite big to say that, and i'm not an expert but so many coincidences and ALL OF THEM WRONG? oh yeah b/c we came from kaukasus 100 years ago,i forgot

 

[Taranis]

As long as you insist that ancient Greek can be "magically dismantled" using Albanian (I'm using that term because it evidently has nothing to do with actual linguistics), I don't know what we have left to discuss here, because frankly, I'm not taking you serious. As long as you believe that modern, 21st century Albanian must be be-all, end-all of explaining ancient Greek, of which, in turn, you have no clue: phonologically, your "Homerik" (sic) seems to be a hodge-podge of modern Greek and ancient Greek, for example there was no /v/ sound in ancient Greek (β was actually /b/), while modern Greek has lost the /h-/. You occasionally have words also latinized, e.g. Erebus, which should be "Erebos" (Ερεβος) in ancient Greek. You also read Upsilon as "i" while it was /u/ in archaic Greek, and later /y/. As an example you have the word δρυς, which should be read as "drys" (and earlier "drus"). If you disregard that (which already loud and clear demonstrates to everyone that you do not know what you are talking about), you also overlook that some words in Albanian might actually be borrowed from Greek themselves, and yet others are shared inheritances from Indo-European. For example, I mentioned drys (δρυς) earlier, this is clearly a common Indo-European item as you also have cognates in Germanic (English 'tree') and Celtic (Irish 'dair'). The only possibility that seems to be viable for you is that if a word between Greek and Albanian is similar, it must obviously come from modern Albanian because that's a foregone conclusion for you - and I will call that what is: charlatanry.

You have no understanding of the basic concepts of linguistics (such as the comparative method, sound correspondences / sound laws and internal reconstruction). Because I think that you could know all of that better, I cannot think that you're anything else but a charlatan. I recommend you should read this article, its a good starting point.

 

[arvistro]

Oh my!
Taranis, I envy your patience! And I am thankful for it, because even when you deal with the most absurdous non-sense, I find one or two things that are interesting for me.

Sometime I think you are creating those Albanians, Slavs, whatnot to explain finesses of linguistics in a lively and less boring "dialogues" manner if you follow me

 

[LAB]

this quote describes some people here.


''people do not care about what is inside the box, as long as the box does what they need done''

 

[LeBrok]

Oh my!
Taranis, I envy your patience! And I am thankful for it, because even when you deal with the most absurdous non-sense, I find one or two things that are interesting for me.

Sometime I think you are creating those Albanians, Slavs, whatnot to explain finesses of linguistics in a lively and less boring "dialogues" manner if you follow me

I think he is most patient of us all, but obviously with a limit too. He must be a human after all. Plus, he explains everything so eloquently yet logically that I think he is always right.

 

[Taranis]

I wanted to comment a bit - as a concluding remark - why the discussions about "Pelasgian" do not belong here. In the linguistic sense, "Pelasgian" could be anything in ancient Greek that cannot be readily explained through a Proto-Indo-European origin. That statement is in itself fairly uncontroversial. The issue starts to get problematic when you start using the term "Pelasgian", which is taken from the ancient Greeks themselves, who used it to (variably) describe either the ancestors of the Greeks, or the pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece who spoke a "Barbaric" language (see Herodotus). The reason why I think this term is not helpful at all is because the underlying assumption then is that there was a single "Pelasgian" language, whereas the evidence clearly shows that that isn't the case: you have Lemnian (a language related with Etruscan), Minoan (the - essentially undeciphered - language of Linear A), Eteocretan (which may be a descendant of Minoan, but we don't know that for sure). I'm also holding Anatolian (Luwic group*) and Semitic languages as a possibility, at least we do know that ancient Greek borrowed from there - though the latter can be also readily explained through trade contact. In summary, the pre-Greek elements in Greek are real, to label them as "Pelasgian" is confusing and potentially deceptive (see above). Most importantly, this has nothing to do with the ancient Illyria or the Illyrian language(s). Even if you take the Pelasgian definitions used the by the ancient Greeks (which have a considerable degree of variation), it doesn't make sense to bring them into a discussion about the Illyrians or the Albanians.

*For Luwic loanwords, a really good example is the Greek word for lead (the metal), "molybdos" (μολυβδος), from which the modern name for another chemical element derives, molybdenum.

I think he is most patient of us all, but obviously with a limit too. He must be a human after all. Plus, he explains everything so eloquently yet logically that I think he is always right.

You give me too much credit. I am not always right, but I usually say so when that happens.

 

[Sile]

I wanted to comment a bit - as a concluding remark - why the discussions about "Pelasgian" do not belong here. In the linguistic sense, "Pelasgian" could be anything in ancient Greek that cannot be readily explained through a Proto-Indo-European origin. That statement is in itself fairly uncontroversial. The issue starts to get problematic when you start using the term "Pelasgian", which is taken from the ancient Greeks themselves, who used it to (variably) describe either the ancestors of the Greeks, or the pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece who spoke a "Barbaric" language (see Herodotus). The reason why I think this term is not helpful at all is because the underlying assumption then is that there was a single "Pelasgian" language, whereas the evidence clearly shows that that isn't the case: you have Lemnian (a language related with Etruscan), Minoan (the - essentially undeciphered - language of Linear A), Eteocretan (which may be a descendant of Minoan, but we don't know that for sure). I'm also holding Anatolian (Luwic group*) and Semitic languages as a possibility, at least we do know that ancient Greek borrowed from there - though the latter can be also readily explained through trade contact. In summary, the pre-Greek elements in Greek are real, to label them as "Pelasgian" is confusing and potentially deceptive (see above). Most importantly, this has nothing to do with the ancient Illyria or the Illyrian language(s). Even if you take the Pelasgian definitions used the by the ancient Greeks (which have a considerable degree of variation), it doesn't make sense to bring them into a discussion about the Illyrians or the Albanians.

*For Luwic loanwords, a really good example is the Greek word for lead (the metal), "molybdos" (μολυβδος), from which the modern name for another chemical element derives, molybdenum.



You give me too much credit. I am not always right, but I usually say so when that happens.

some Talk from many forums about Pelasgians in 2015 is that Pelasgian was proto-thracian ( not dacian )

in regards to Etruscan chit-chat from 2015...........many now consider etruscans either indigenous to Italy or an old branch of the liguri further north via genetics..........the lydian connection and the lemnian seems to be in error.

firstly the lemnian stelae is dated 740BC , the etruscans are dated 850BC in Italy ............some conclude the stelae was placed/written on lemnos by etruscan traders from italy.
secondly lydians as etruscans..........no notes or association with etruscans around 500BC when the lydians where fighting the phygians in central Anatolia.......scholars state if etruscans where lyduans , then ancient scholars would have associated these 2 in this phygian wars.

 

[LAB]

some Talk from many forums about Pelasgians in 2015 is that Pelasgian was proto-thracian ( not dacian )

in regards to Etruscan chit-chat from 2015...........many now consider etruscans either indigenous to Italy or an old branch of the liguri further north via genetics..........the lydian connection and the lemnian seems to be in error.

firstly the lemnian stelae is dated 740BC , the etruscans are dated 850BC in Italy ............some conclude the stelae was placed/written on lemnos by etruscan traders from italy.
secondly lydians as etruscans..........no notes or association with etruscans around 500BC when the lydians where fighting the phygians in central Anatolia.......scholars state if etruscans where lyduans , then ancient scholars would have associated these 2 in this phygian wars.

recently they've found similar short words on ceramic vases and it seems that
that was actually the dialekt was used in lemnos before the conquer by miltiades

however lemnian it is related with etruscan dialekt so we can only suppose that some of the first inhabitants of balkans coming from anatolia instead of continuing their journey to west they settled in lemnos.

 

[Taranis]

some Talk from many forums about Pelasgians in 2015 is that Pelasgian was proto-thracian ( not dacian )

Where would that even make sense? If you take Homer's and Herodotus' definitions of the term, respectively Crete and Lemnos were inhabited by "Pelasgians", by that definition, Lemnian, Minoan and Eteocretan would be all "Pelasgian" languages, and they clearly have nothing with Thracian. It also goes back to what I said in my previous post, namely that the usage of "Pelasgian" is not helpful at all.

in regards to Etruscan chit-chat from 2015...........many now consider etruscans either indigenous to Italy or an old branch of the liguri further north via genetics..........the lydian connection and the lemnian seems to be in error.

firstly the lemnian stelae is dated 740BC , the etruscans are dated 850BC in Italy ............some conclude the stelae was placed/written on lemnos by etruscan traders from italy.
secondly lydians as etruscans..........no notes or association with etruscans around 500BC when the lydians where fighting the phygians in central Anatolia.......scholars state if etruscans where lyduans , then ancient scholars would have associated these 2 in this phygian wars.

The idea that Lemnos was an Etruscan colony from the west does not make sense in my opinion, because although Etruscan and Lemnian were clearly part of the same language family, they're not identical. The idea to link Etruscan with Ligurian makes even less sense, because although there's really not much evidence, Ligurian was clearly Indo-European.

The Lydians were an Anatolian people (as in, their language was part of the Anatolian language family). My idea is that the reference to Lydia with the Etruscans is understood in a purely geographical sense, not in a sense of linguistic affiliation.

 

[Sile]

Where would that even make sense? If you take Homer's and Herodotus' definitions of the term, respectively Crete and Lemnos were inhabited by "Pelasgians", by that definition, Lemnian, Minoan and Eteocretan would be all "Pelasgian" languages, and they clearly have nothing with Thracian. It also goes back to what I said in my previous post, namely that the usage of "Pelasgian" is not helpful at all.



The idea that Lemnos was an Etruscan colony from the west does not make sense in my opinion, because although Etruscan and Lemnian were clearly part of the same language family, they're not identical. The idea to link Etruscan with Ligurian makes even less sense, because although there's really not much evidence, Ligurian was clearly Indo-European.

The Lydians were an Anatolian people (as in, their language was part of the Anatolian language family). My idea is that the reference to Lydia with the Etruscans is understood in a purely geographical sense, not in a sense of linguistic affiliation.

there are no genetics that link etruscans with lydians that I know of.......the current ideas is that they are indigenous to Italy seems to be on the rise.

as per pelasgians..................herodous states the thracians are the 2nd most populace people in the world after the indians..........what did the thracians leave us then?

 

[Taranis]

there are no genetics that link etruscans with lydians that I know of.......the current ideas is that they are indigenous to Italy seems to be on the rise.

First, the statement that 'there are no genetics that link etruscans with anatolia' is false (by the way, I didn't say, "Lydians", I meant Lydia as a geographic sense). The papers I'm aware of, I must admit, are a bit dated:

(Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans) from 2007.
(The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA) also from 2007.
(The Etruscan timeline: a recent Anatolian connection) from 2009.

If you can pinpoint me to newer papers that say otherwise, please, go ahead. But to say "there are no papers" would be false.

as per pelasgians..................herodous states the thracians are the 2nd most populace people in the world after the indians..........what did the thracians leave us then?

Are you trying to tell me that you're interpreting Lemnian, Eteocretan and Minoan as ("Proto-")Thracian?! No offense, but good luck with that one. :shocked: