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Thread: Distribution map of Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup in and around Europe circa 8000 BCE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Nevertheless, Indians have a few percents of Motala-like admixture.
    Motala are
    those SHG guys from Sweden, right? Weren't they partially ANE ???

    IIRC, the only "pure WHG" are Loschbour+La Brana+Bichon, while SHG had some ANE, and EHG had a lot of ANE.

    Maybe "Motala-like" in India is the ANE part of Motala, not the WHG part. And what about possible CHG admixture?

    Indians can have some part of CHG, which was shared ancestry of CHG and SHG.

    ==============================

    As for R1b frequency in Iran - the map posted above shows, that is especially high in Western Iran.

    Western Iran is inhabited mostly by Non-Persian ethnic minorities, such as Arabs, Turkic Azeris, but also Iranic Kurds and Lurs:



    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ns_in_Iran.png


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Just a quick note. I have replaced the Y-DNA F in the map by H2 as what I have always referred to as the Paleolithic European F-P96 has recently been renamed H2.

    C1a2 and H2 are very old haplogroups associated with Cro-Magnon. C1 was found in the 37,000-year-old Kostenki 14 in Russia. C1a2 was found in Mesolithic Iberia and Early Neolithic Anatolia. H2 was present in Early Neolithic Anatolia and Hungary (Starčevo) as well as in Megalithic Spain. In my opinion these were all descended from Paleolithic Europeans. The fact that both haplogroups were found among the first farmers of north-west Anatolia shows that there was a genetic continuity between northwest Anatolia and Europe at the time.
    acoording to Genetiker Kostenki was C1b1 - related to the former 'C5'

    Barcin neolithic arrived with cattle and ovicaprids 8.6 ka. They came across Anatola overland - at around the same time cattle arrived at Catal Hoyuk and other sites in Central Anatolia (before that they only had ovicaprids)
    Before Barcin arrived neolithic there were allready HG on the Marmara coast.
    7.8 ka cardial ware arrived at the Marmara coast with pigs.

    The NW Anatolian samples were after 8.6 ka but before 7.8 ka and taken from only 2 sites.
    IMO the local HG were I and the others - G2a - J2a - H2 - C1a2 were farmers who came from further east.

    As for C1a2, the TMRCA between La Brana and the neolithic C1a2 according to YFull is 43200 years, that is at the onset of the Aurignacian.
    IMO this was a split between European C1a2 (La Brana) and SW Asian C1a2 (neolithic)

    Admixture between Anatolia and the Balkans started 13 ka when obsidian from Melos and Anatolian pulses seeds arrived at Franchthi cave in the Argolis Bay, Greece.
    Those same people reached Cyprus 12.5 ka and Sicily 9.5 ka.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Maciamo I'm still not so convinced by your association of all of R1a with EHG. About 99% of R1a alive today is under M198 branch, which emerged ca. 14300 years ago (per YFull), while that EHG Karelian sample of R1a, who lived 7000-7500 years ago, was negative for this clade (xM198). Ancestors of EHG R1a split from ancestors of M198 R1a over 14 thousand years ago, and then over 7 thousand years ago we discover M459* in Karelia. M459 itself emerged 17700 years ago, and the most basal form of R1a - M420 - emerged 22000 years ago, and TMRCA of both M420 and M459 was 14300 years ago. Therefore M420*, M459* as well as YP1272 (formed 14300 years ago as well) had a lot of time to migrate all over Eurasia as hunters.
    from LGM till youngest dryas (12.7-12.6 ka) there was eastern epigravettian north and east of the Black Sea
    Satsurblia was eastern epigravettian, and it was haplo J, IMO all eastern epigravettian was haplo J
    IMO first R1 tribes arrived north of the Caucasus right after youngest dryas, not earlier
    till Maykop culture, new R1 tribes kept arriving north of the Caucasus
    David Anthony, in his book mentions 10 ka at Dnjepr rapids there were 3 tribes (1 dolicephalic, 2 brachhyophalic) fighting for hegemony (flint tips were inside skeletons)
    by 9 ka 1 brachhyophalic had won and started to conquer the whole area
    so 10 ka first R1 tribes arrived at Dnjepr rapids
    I suspect J in EHG Karelia is J*, it would be interesting to verify this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    11 samples from Xiaohe Tomb complex in the Tarim Basin were positive for M198, and negative for Z93. They are mysterious:

    https://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedre...7-8-15-1&req=4
    Tomenable, where does it say they were not Z93 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Tomenable, where does it say they were not Z93 ?
    In the comment section professor Zhou (corresponding author of the study) wrote, that they were not Z93:

    Check "The origin of Xiaohe Bronze Age mummy" comment (2014-07-18 16:14):

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-70...mments#2168698

    Here is the most important fragment:

    Our results show that Xiaohe settlers carried HgR1a1in paternal lineages, and Hgs H, K, C4, M*in maternal lineages. Though Hg R1a1a is found at highest frequency in both Europe and South Asia, Xiaohe R1a1a more likely originate from Europe because of it not belong to R1a1a-Z93 branch(our recently unpublished data) which mainly found in Asians.
    Here is his e-mail address, you can ask him about details if you want: [email protected]

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Tomenable, where does it say they were not Z93 ?
    In the comment section prof. Hui Zhou (corresponding author of the study) wrote, that they were not Z93:

    Check "The origin of Xiaohe Bronze Age mummy" comment (posted 2014-07-18 16:14):

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-70...mments#2168698

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15

    Here is the most important fragment:

    (...) Our results show that Xiaohe settlers carried Hg R1a1 in paternal lineages, and Hgs H, K, C4, M* in maternal lineages. Though Hg R1a1a is found at highest frequency in both Europe and South Asia, Xiaohe R1a1a more likely originate from Europe because of it not belong to R1a1a-Z93 branch (our recently unpublished data) which [is] mainly found in Asians. (...)
    Here is his email address, you can ask him about details if you want: [email protected]

    This comment is already over one year old, so I hope that they will soon publish that unpublished data.

    ==================================

    It seems that Xiaohe people emigrated westward, and their descendants now live in Western Eurasia.

    Because there is not much of non-Z93 R1a left in the Tarim Basin today, AFAIK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's been a while since I haven't made any new maps. Here is an attempt to show what Europe, the Near East and North Africa looked like in terms of Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups some 10,000 years ago. I delimited the (very) approximate borders of the first cereal/legume farmers in the Fertile Crescent, the first cattle herders and the first goat herders.

    Of course these Neolithic people eventually expanded. G2a farmers moved west across Anatolia to Europe and east to Iran, where J2 hunter-gatherers eventually became Neolithised. G2b moved south to Egypt and Arabia. J1+T1a goat herders eventually expanded over all the Fertile Crescent, then colonised the mountainous regions of the Mediterranean, well suited for goats.

    I believe that R1b cattle herders ended up squeezed between all these other groups, which forced them to move south to Africa (R1b-V88) and north to the Pontic-Caspian Steppe (R1b-M269) between 6000 and 5000 BCE.




    Go to this page for a larger version (click on the map there).
    Its been speculated in previous forums that E-m78 and J2b entered the Balkans at the same time. There is the same proportion of E-M78 and J2b throughout the continent. Which, according to the new map, would mean these mixed population was formed in Anatolia and then moved to the Balkans.

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    When it comes to haplogroups of Xiaohe mummies:

    Y-DNA = R1a (11 samples = ca. 92%) and K (one sample = ca. 8%)
    mtDNA = H, K, U5, U7, U2e, T, R*, C4, C5, B, D, G2a, M5 and maybe M*

    Authors claim that C4 and C5 are "East Asian", but in fact they are native Siberian, and also present in Europe:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/0...na-c-from.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    from LGM till youngest dryas (12.7-12.6 ka) there was eastern epigravettian north and east of the Black Sea
    Satsurblia was eastern epigravettian, and it was haplo J, IMO all eastern epigravettian was haplo J
    IMO first R1 tribes arrived north of the Caucasus right after youngest dryas, not earlier
    till Maykop culture, new R1 tribes kept arriving north of the Caucasus
    David Anthony, in his book mentions 10 ka at Dnjepr rapids there were 3 tribes (1 dolicephalic, 2 brachhyophalic) fighting for hegemony (flint tips were inside skeletons)
    by 9 ka 1 brachhyophalic had won and started to conquer the whole area
    so 10 ka first R1 tribes arrived at Dnjepr rapids
    I suspect J in EHG Karelia is J*, it would be interesting to verify this
    That makes a lot of sense.
    So, those Euros would be J* and visitors from East (having Mongoloid/Syberian features) would be R1a.
    Soviet anthros described J* EHG guy as Euro, but R1a EHG guy as mixed Euro/ Mongoloid (alternatively as not a mix but specific Uralid race).

    I am now puzzled re Swiderians. J? I? IJ?

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    How do you know which one was which, though?

    I remember that I saw signatures of those guys somewhere, but I can't find it again.

    Does the genetic paper say which was which ???

    BTW - there were more than just 2 men there. There are at least 142 people buried there.

    We have reconstructions of two of them, but do you know which exactly are they?

    The majority of skulls from that cemetery were Caucasoid, Mongoloid were a few of them:

    http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudie...ure-in-europe/

    (...) Craniologically, the Yuzhnyi Olenii Ostrov burial is dominated by Caucasoid morphology but, importantly, there is a small number of skulls that display Mongoloid traits. (...)
    EDIT:

    I have found those signatures - they are in this link:

    files.figshare.com/485787/Table_S2.pdf

    R1a + C1g hunter (sample UzOO 74) is this one:

    MAE RAS collection number: 5773-74
    Grave number: 142

    And J + U4a hunter (sample UzOO 40) is this one:

    MAE RAS collection number: 5773-40
    Grave number: 39/1

    ================================

    Are they the same guys as those two reconstructed by Gerasimov ???

    BTW - isn't C1g a "typically Native American" mtDNA haplogroup ???

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    Most likely not Gerasimov's models, for individual descriptions and discussion (of those descriptions) please see here deeper in thread:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ich-one-is-EHG

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    Soviet anthros described J* EHG guy as Euro, but R1a EHG guy as mixed Euro/ Mongoloid
    The R1a EHG guy had mtDNA haplogroup C1g - suggesting his mother could be Mongoloid:

    See this thread:

    http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?t=1935&p=24119

    Maciamo counts C among East Asian mtDNA haplogroups (though C4 and C5 are rather "Siberian", not "East Asian"):

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_m...html#Mongoloid

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    He simply arrived from Syberia together with mom and dad.
    The anthro type of Samara EHG was most likely also Uralid. He was R1b.

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    The anthro type of Samara EHG was most likely also Uralid. He was R1b.
    But the Samara EHG had blonde hair, according to FireHaired14:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1993675580

    At least according to previous info, because now it turns out that he also had a red hair mutation:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...st-8-000-Years

    Maybe he had what is called reddish-blonde / strawberry-blonde?

    Karelian EHG had darker hair, maybe due to that Mongoloid admixture?

    Hair colors of EHG samples according to FireHaired14 (Brown/Black = Karelia; Brown/Blonde = Samara):



    On the other hand, autosomal results are similar, Karelian "East Asian" portion is only slightly larger:

    They can be modeled as WHG + ANE mix, with very minor South Asian + East Asian admixtures:



    Maybe blonde hair is indeed an originally Uralid trait then ???

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    For this particular Samara EHG Russian users of molgen could not find description. "Most likely Uralid" comes from description of other same culture graves.
    Hmm, do you have an autosomal comparison for Karelia J and Karelia R1a?

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    Hmm, do you have an autosomal comparison for Karelia J and Karelia R1a?
    Nope, not yet.

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    cool maps as always

    but

    1. I think it's pretty clear now R1b were originally HG from the steppe (although they may have spread elsewhere as well) in which case they got displaced from the steppe at some later date and their dramatic survival in western Europe resulted from LP.

    2. I think the fixation with the fertile crescent because of later history is where things have been going wrong. I don't believe the fertile crescent would have been fertile until after farming was developed and the land drained. Instead I think people should maybe be looking at a fertile Aegean or fertile Black/Caspian Sea coast before the sea level rose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It is a very important problem in historical population genetics, especially when looking at the Y-DNA of patriarchal and elitists societies like Proto-Indo-Europeans. Elite Kurgan burials may not be representative of the common folk from the culture in question. If, as you say, there was one ruling dynasty that expanded its territory over time but always placed royal princes as local rulers (like the Mongols did much later), then obviously we get a very skewed view of the Y-DNA in the overall society. That may simply be the reason why R1b-L51 hasn't shown up in Yamna yet. But it also means that there could have been plenty of Mesolithic (R1a, I2a) and Neolithic (G2a, T1a) lineages that were part of Yamna, but that are invisible to us now. The same would also apply to Corded Ware, Sintashta and any other Bronze Age Indo-European culture. If the ruling dynasty lasts long enough in one region, over time it will become the dominant male lineage in that region, even if it starts with in single individual. I think that would explain why R1b got replaced by R1a in Central Asia, and how the overwhelming majority of Indo-European Y-DNA that made it to the Indian subcontinent were R1a and not R1b, even though the European component of Indian genomes is about half Yamna R1b and half EHG R1a.




    I2a2a1b1b2 (S12195) is also known as Cont3b. It has a very wide distribution all over Europe, and even places like Georgia, but is especially common in Central Europe.
    Place yDNA J, J1 and J2a among these and I completely agree with you.

    What seems to be a possibility here, as Fire Heared once said, we are dealing here with one patriachal branch which turned out as R1b-l23 it mere coincidence that ths one "Elite" paternal lineages was not some of the other R1b branches, some sort of J or R1a, G2a, T for that matter.

    Since we have yDNA J in EHG and CHG, both said to be the main groups to merge to form Yamna, it is unlikely that one of the two groups stole wives from the other or some other very unlikely scenario.

    All it appears to me like, After some time when these CHG and EHG groups merged and became Yamna. One dominant paternal lineage took the power and became Elite, much like a Royal family. And after a long time they were overthrown by a new "Royal family" who were in this case R1a-z93 and more present in the rich Kurgan burials from now on in the Steppes.

    We only have 2 CHG samples so far and I don't even think the CHG is the non EHG ancestry of Yamna. But something very closely related/similar to CHG. Much like how WHG is to EHG. A Herder group brought R1b-l23 to the Steppes and they most likely came from Western Asia.

    The only difference here is I place them somewhere in the region between the Zagros and Alborz mountains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But the Samara EHG had blonde hair, according to FireHaired14:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1993675580

    At least according to previous info, because now it turns out that he also had a red hair mutation:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...st-8-000-Years

    Maybe he had what is called reddish-blonde / strawberry-blonde?

    Karelian EHG had darker hair, maybe due to that Mongoloid admixture?

    Hair colors of EHG samples according to FireHaired14 (Brown/Black = Karelia; Brown/Blonde = Samara):



    On the other hand, autosomal results are similar, Karelian "East Asian" portion is only slightly larger:

    They can be modeled as WHG + ANE mix, with very minor South Asian + East Asian admixtures:



    Maybe blonde hair is indeed an originally Uralid trait then ???
    Calling those R1 tribes "mongoloid" or "Uralid" is simply so wrong. Uralic people are dominant in N Haplogroup. All Uralic people have a significant real Han like/modern Sibirian admixture. R1 tribes not(exceptions are there always).

    People who still don't understand that reconstructions made in the past without DNA, especially by Gerasimov are not realiable when it comes to facial features, only the skull shape is mostly accurate. I have seen all his reconstructions. Virtually all of them have an asiatic touch. Even the H&G reconstruction of him, which are from Central Europe.


    People need to also understand that Brachycephalic =/= "Mongoloid". Just as there are mesocephalic and even Dolichocephalic East Asians there are also Brachycephalic Caucasians.
    Last edited by Alan; 02-12-15 at 13:55.

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    Alan, flat(tened) face bones are flat(tened) face bones.

    If you have two populations always participating in genesys around Baltics (Zvejnieki, Oleniy Ostrov), one older with Caucasian crania with analogous South/South-West and other group from East with flat face and analogous from Syberia, then what are your versions?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    That R1a EHG had mtDNA haplogroup C1g - suggesting that his mother could be the "Mongoloid" part to that mix:
    MtDNA C was also present in Neolithic Ukraine and in the Catacomb culture. It is still found in Eastern Europe today. That doesn't mean any of these people had a Mongoloid mother. I explained in the R1a page's mtDNA correspondence that mtDNA probably originated with Y-DNA R* as Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) mammoth hunters during the late Paleolithic. The subclades of C found in Europe are C1, C4a and C5, and all of them are found in the Altai region, southern Siberia and above all western Siberia. That's pretty much were R1* and R1a* originated. In other words, just like U2e and U4, haplogroups C1, C4a and C5 would have come with R1a to Eastern Europe and could have been present there thousands of years before the Mesolithic sample you mention.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    MtDNA C was also present in Neolithic Ukraine and in the Catacomb culture. It is still found in Eastern Europe today. That doesn't mean any of these people had a Mongoloid mother. I explained in the R1a page's mtDNA correspondence that mtDNA probably originated with Y-DNA R* as Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) mammoth hunters during the late Paleolithic. The subclades of C found in Europe are C1, C4a and C5, and all of them are found in the Altai region, southern Siberia and above all western Siberia. That's pretty much were R1* and R1a* originated. In other words, just like U2e and U4, haplogroups C1, C4a and C5 would have come with R1a to Eastern Europe and could have been present there thousands of years before the Mesolithic sample you mention.
    CZ was Siberian.
    I don't know when they split.
    IMO C arrived with pottery which started to spread all over Siberia from Manchuria 13 ka.
    So during LGM C would have been together with N

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    acoording to Genetiker Kostenki was C1b1 - related to the former 'C5'

    Barcin neolithic arrived with cattle and ovicaprids 8.6 ka. They came across Anatola overland - at around the same time cattle arrived at Catal Hoyuk and other sites in Central Anatolia (before that they only had ovicaprids)
    Before Barcin arrived neolithic there were allready HG on the Marmara coast.
    7.8 ka cardial ware arrived at the Marmara coast with pigs.

    The NW Anatolian samples were after 8.6 ka but before 7.8 ka and taken from only 2 sites.
    IMO the local HG were I and the others - G2a - J2a - H2 - C1a2 were farmers who came from further east.
    That is very interesting. It looks like there was a convergence of different tribes and/or technologies/domesticates around 7000-6500 BCE that kickstarted the Neolithic expansion to Europe. Suddenly, instead of having cereal farmers, ovicaprid herders and cattle herders separately, these Neolithic people had all three + pottery.

    Only Cardial farmers brought one additional element to the package: pigs.

    I don't think, however, that tribes from different ethnic groups (e.g. Basal Eurasian G2a vs Caucasian J1) really merged in any significant way. There may have been a few intermarriages. But considering that all European farmers were predominantly G2a, be them descendants of the Thessalian Neolithic or of the Cardium Pottery culture, I imagine that what could have happened is that G2a farmers developed pottery and started trading grain and legumes in ceramic pots for domesticate animals, be it goat, sheep, cattle or pigs. So they ended up with the full Neolithic package which greatly facilitated their adaptation to different environments, made them more resilient in case of bad harvest, and allowed them to migrate with food stored in pots and animals to provide milk and meat until the new land has been cleared for farming and the new crop harvested.

    As for C1a2, the TMRCA between La Brana and the neolithic C1a2 according to YFull is 43200 years, that is at the onset of the Aurignacian.
    IMO this was a split between European C1a2 (La Brana) and SW Asian C1a2 (neolithic)
    Are you sure it is the TMRCA between La Brana and the Neolithic samples, or is it the overall TMRCA for all known C1a2, including modern samples ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Are you sure it is the TMRCA between La Brana and the Neolithic samples, or is it the overall TMRCA for all known C1a2, including modern samples ?
    I'm not sure, it would be interesting to test the neolithic C1a2 for further subclades. (C-V86 or V182)

    YFull is clear : La Brana split 43.2 ka from C-V86

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/C-V20/

    Ray Banks estimates the C1a split even older and all European samples are V182 with TRMCA 17.4 ka
    he also has an Algerian Berber branch, not V182

    C1a2V20 (6845955 G->A) 55.0 KY
    • • • •C1a2a V182 (14249991 C->T)
    • • • • •C1a2a1V222 (7589937 G->C) 17.4 KY
    • • • • C1a2a1aZ31793(7245632 C->T) Brits 6.5 KY
    • • • • C1a2a1bZ31808(14811561 G->A) 6.5 KY
    • • • • • •C1a2a1b1 Z31798(6655569 T->C) Brits 6.0 KY
    • • • • • •C1a2a1b2 Z31815(8491711 C->T) Hungarians 6.0 KY
    • • • • C1a2a1c Y12157/Z30466(14415244 C->A) 6.5 KY
    • • • • • •C1a2a1c1Z30362(2753960 T->C) Ukrainians 6.0 KY
    • • • • • •C1a2a1c2Z31803(6717952 C->T) Greeks 6.0 KY
    • • • • •C1a2a2Z29329 (2777695 G->C) 17.4 KY
    • • • • C1a2a2aZ31819(7617913 A->T) Spaniards 2.4 KY
    • • • • C1a2a2bZ31824(6655370 A->T) Poles 2.4 KY
    • • • •C1a2b Z38886 (2800547 G->A) Algerian Berbers


    proto-Aurignacian was in Italy and Catalunia 45 ka
    Aurignacian started along Austrian Danube 43.5 ka and conquered all European tundra-steppe 40 ka
    Levantine Aurignacian and Baradostian (Zagros Mts) are later aurignacian-like cultures (<40 ka), IMO result of backmigration to SW Asia, even possibly the same for Dabbian (Cyrenaica 40 ka)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Its been speculated in previous forums that E-m78 and J2b entered the Balkans at the same time. There is the same proportion of E-M78 and J2b throughout the continent. Which, according to the new map, would mean these mixed population was formed in Anatolia and then moved to the Balkans.
    No most likely E-M78 was already present in Italy and Spain before neolitich revolution, going by diversity. No E-M78 has been found so far in Neolitich Balkans/Anatolia.

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