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Thread: Distribution map of Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup in and around Europe circa 8000 BCE

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    Post Distribution map of Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup in and around Europe circa 8000 BCE

    It's been a while since I haven't made any new maps. Here is an attempt to show what Europe, the Near East and North Africa looked like in terms of Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups some 10,000 years ago. I delimited the (very) approximate borders of the first cereal/legume farmers in the Fertile Crescent, the first cattle herders and the first goat herders.

    Of course these Neolithic people eventually expanded. G2a farmers moved west across Anatolia to Europe and east to Iran, where J2 hunter-gatherers eventually became Neolithised. G2b moved south to Egypt and Arabia. J1+T1a goat herders eventually expanded over all the Fertile Crescent, then colonised the mountainous regions of the Mediterranean, well suited for goats.

    I believe that R1b cattle herders ended up squeezed between all these other groups, which forced them to move south to Africa (R1b-V88) and north to the Pontic-Caspian Steppe (R1b-M269) between 6000 and 5000 BCE.




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    Very interesting map, thanks!

    Do you exclude the possibility of some subclades of R1a among First Goat or Cattle Herders ???

    IIRC, according to Underhill et al. 2014, R1a originally spread from somewhere around Iran.

    And what do you think about N1c - where was it hiding 10,000 years ago?

    I think N1c could also be present in Mesolithic East Europe, but maybe in its northern part.

    =========================

    I find that OP helpful but I got a message: "You may not vote on any more threads today."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Very interesting map, thanks!

    Do you exclude the possibility of some subclades of R1a among First Goat or Cattle Herders ???

    IIRC, according to Underhill et al. 2014, R1a originally spread from somewhere around Iran.
    I doubt that R1a was among the first cattle and goat herders for several reasons:

    1) R1a wasn't part of the cattle-herding Yamna culture.

    2) R1a was already all over European Russia in the Mesolithic (also R1b for that matter, but not yet R1b-V88 and R1b-L23).

    3) The R1a phylogeny started to explode downstream of M417 from 3500 BCE (TMRCA for M417 according to Yfull), especially with the formation of the Z283 and Z93 subclades (formed c. 3000 BCE), which is far too recent for a Neolithic expansion.

    4) If R1a were goat herders from the Middle East, there was be old R1a subclades alongside J1 and T1a in mountainous regions like southern Italy, Sardinia, North Africa, and even Sudan and Ethiopia, when in fact there is very little to no R1a at all in these regions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable
    And what do you think about N1c - where was it hiding 10,000 years ago?

    I think N1c could also be present in Mesolithic East Europe, but maybe in its northern part.
    As I explain in the N1c page, N1c1 appeared in Siberia c. 15000 ybp and probably reached the Volga-Ural region between 10,000 and 7,000 years ago. I once thought that the Kunda culture was the first N1c culture in Northeast Europe, but I have revised my estimate to a later date, with the Comb Ceramic culture (4200-2000 BCE). Therefore, around 9000 to 7000 BCE, N1c tribes were making their way across the Ural mountains, and may or may not yet have reached the Upper Volga, but I seriously doubt that they were much further west than that. After the samples from Mesolithic Karelia and Samara lacked N1c and didn't have much Siberian admixture.

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    My comments are about G2a, J2, and E-V13.

    Firstly, both J2a and J2b had already existed in the Mesolithic, and I believe they should be viewed separately. Among two of them, it only makes sense to place J2a in Anatolia.
    J2b is still very hard to understand.

    Further, regarding G2a, I'm quite convinced it entered Southeast Europe before J2a. And whereas for J2a it is almost certain it entered SE Europe from Anatolia, for G2a I wouldn't be so sure about that.

    Finally I believe E-V13 could also be already in Europe 8000 BCE . Though it would be impossible to say where exactly (I would bet against Balkans).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Firstly, both J2a and J2b had already existed in the Mesolithic, and I believe they should be viewed separately. Among two of them, it only makes sense to place J2a in Anatolia.
    J2b is still very hard to understand.
    Of course they existed separately, but at present so much remains uncertain about the origins of J2b that I preferred to lumped both subclades under J2. Note that I didn't write J2*. Likewise, when I mention mtDNA H with the subclade, I mean that there are several subclades, either too many or too uncertain to specify.

    Further, regarding G2a, I'm quite convinced it entered Southeast Europe before J2a. And whereas for J2a it is almost certain it entered SE Europe from Anatolia, for G2a I wouldn't be so sure about that.
    I agree, but this map stops around 7000 BCE, before G2a reached northwest Anatolia or Europe. European Neolithic farmers were overwhelmingly G2a because that was the true Y-DNA lineage of Fertile Crescent farmers. Many other haplogroups pop up here and there because they were just a minority of people assimilated along the way. That includes J2a, E-M78, H2, I1, I2a, and so on. Even the T1a from the LBK culture is surely just descended from a goat herding family that joined the G2a farmers in Anatolia before moving to Europe. It is interesting to note that the big expansion of agriculturalists outside the Fertile Crescent happened when pottery was invented (from 7000 BCE in the Near East). I am not quite sure why that was an essential prerequisite (maybe food storage when advancing to new lands), but there is surely a reason why it was the G2a farmers with pottery who colonised Europe first, and not the J1 and T1a goat herders (who presumably lacked pottery at the time).

    Finally I believe E-V13 could also be already in Europe 8000 BCE . Though it would be impossible to say where exactly (I would bet against Balkans).
    That's what I have said for several years. I mentioned E-M78 among Mesolithic Southeast Europeans and Southwest Europeans, and that includes E-V13. It isn't only E-V13 though. Europeans also have many indigenous subclades of E-V12 and E-V22 - hence the umbrella term M78.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree, but this map stops around 7000 BCE, before G2a reached northwest Anatolia or Europe. European Neolithic farmers were overwhelmingly G2a because that was the true Y-DNA lineage of Fertile Crescent farmers. Many other haplogroups pop up here and there because they were just a minority of people assimilated along the way. That includes J2a, E-M78, H2, I1, I2a, and so on. Even the T1a from the LBK culture is surely just descended from a goat herding family that joined the G2a farmers in Anatolia before moving to Europe. It is interesting to note that the big expansion of agriculturalists outside the Fertile Crescent happened when pottery was invented (from 7000 BCE in the Near East). I am not quite sure why that was an essential prerequisite (maybe food storage when advancing to new lands), but there is surely a reason why it was the G2a farmers with pottery who colonised Europe first, and not the J1 and T1a goat herders (who presumably lacked pottery at the time).
    It is not directly related to your map but this may be a good place to write something I think many would disagree with. It is an opinion I've had for some time about the spread of agriculture - considering a lot of information we have collected about haplogroups, both from modern populations and aDNA, it looks to me as if agriculture was not spread by human migrations, but it was more like a spread of a cultural phenomenon.
    This is partly why my view is a bit different when G2a is in question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    It is not directly related to your map but this may be a good place to write something I think many would disagree with. It is an opinion I've had for some time about the spread of agriculture - considering a lot of information we have collected about haplogroups, both from modern populations and aDNA, it looks to me as if agriculture was not spread by human migrations, but it was more like a spread of a cultural phenomenon.
    This is partly why my view is a bit different when G2a is in question.
    aDNA could give a part of the answer I think, but we have the more precise metrics surveys that show a sharp and quick change in central Balkans at the deabreak of european agriculture, neatly separating last HGs and first Farmers; no way-of-life nor climatic explanation can explain it, only demic new arrivals. the same for other regions of Europe at the time of this transition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Of course they existed separately, but at present so much remains uncertain about the origins of J2b that I preferred to lumped both subclades under J2. Note that I didn't write J2*. Likewise, when I mention mtDNA H with the subclade, I mean that there are several subclades, either too many or too uncertain to specify.



    I agree, but this map stops around 7000 BCE, before G2a reached northwest Anatolia or Europe. European Neolithic farmers were overwhelmingly G2a because that was the true Y-DNA lineage of Fertile Crescent farmers. Many other haplogroups pop up here and there because they were just a minority of people assimilated along the way. That includes J2a, E-M78, H2, I1, I2a, and so on. Even the T1a from the LBK culture is surely just descended from a goat herding family that joined the G2a farmers in Anatolia before moving to Europe. It is interesting to note that the big expansion of agriculturalists outside the Fertile Crescent happened when pottery was invented (from 7000 BCE in the Near East). I am not quite sure why that was an essential prerequisite (maybe food storage when advancing to new lands), but there is surely a reason why it was the G2a farmers with pottery who colonised Europe first, and not the J1 and T1a goat herders (who presumably lacked pottery at the time).



    That's what I have said for several years. I mentioned E-M78 among Mesolithic Southeast Europeans and Southwest Europeans, and that includes E-V13. It isn't only E-V13 though. Europeans also have many indigenous subclades of E-V12 and E-V22 - hence the umbrella term M78.
    Its highly doubtful that T1a where goat herders along with J1 because because there is zero evidence of any T1a in the arabian peninsula or eastern Africa of any T1a older than 2000years.
    T-L446 appears to show greater variation in Europe than it does in the middle east. The T-Y7381 branch found in Saudi Arabia (and heavily tested) is relatively young (1400 ybp) so could be the result of a recent migration from further north.
    The paper the Levant versus the Horn of Africa also states this.If T1a and J1 where together as goat herders , they would also be together in the Arabian peninsula , which they are not. 44% J1 and 3.5% T1a ..........J1 are the nomadic group. I see T1a as per Haak , that is 95% EEF ( farmers)

    The 2 x T1a in early Neolithic Central germany are surrounded by 8 x G2a and 1 x H2 ..............the only conclusion is that T1a was around with G2a in the caucasus .............IMO the ancient T in northern Europe are from the Azeri lands today.
    Were there is G2a in the Alps of Tyrol, you find 5% of T1a, where you find G2a in the mountains of central france you find 4% of T1a. Where you find G2a in the mountains of central Italy you find nearly 9% of T1a.

    The other factor is that all T men have the marker TL-P326, this union and eventual split still sees T and L in places together in the present and in the ancient times.....Dagestan, Lezkins, Caucasus, levant, Anatolia, Tyrol Alps, Estonia, Bulgaria etc etc...............so where ever T you should also find L nearly
    The TL formation first rose in the sind valley of South Asia and the split between T and L somewhere near by.

    After being together with L and G2a group , the next marker it is with is J2 ( phoenician main marker )............be it 14000 years ago ( T1-Pages21 ) in the northern Levant or 9000 years ago in northern egypt it also trvelled with the phoenician J2.
    Btw there is a lot of L marker in northern Levant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Its highly doubtful that T1a where goat herders along with J1 because because there is zero evidence of any T1a in the arabian peninsula or eastern Africa of any T1a older than 2000years.
    T-L446 appears to show greater variation in Europe than it does in the middle east. The T-Y7381 branch found in Saudi Arabia (and heavily tested) is relatively young (1400 ybp) so could be the result of a recent migration from further north.
    The paper the Levant versus the Horn of Africa also states this.If T1a and J1 where together as goat herders , they would also be together in the Arabian peninsula , which they are not. 44% J1 and 3.5% T1a ..........J1 are the nomadic group. I see T1a as per Haak , that is 95% EEF ( farmers)

    The 2 x T1a in early Neolithic Central germany are surrounded by 8 x G2a and 1 x H2 ..............the only conclusion is that T1a was around with G2a in the caucasus .............IMO the ancient T in northern Europe are from the Azeri lands today.
    Were there is G2a in the Alps of Tyrol, you find 5% of T1a, where you find G2a in the mountains of central france you find 4% of T1a. Where you find G2a in the mountains of central Italy you find nearly 9% of T1a.

    The other factor is that all T men have the marker TL-P326, this union and eventual split still sees T and L in places together in the present and in the ancient times.....Dagestan, Lezkins, Caucasus, levant, Anatolia, Tyrol Alps, Estonia, Bulgaria etc etc...............so where ever T you should also find L nearly
    The TL formation first rose in the sind valley of South Asia and the split between T and L somewhere near by.

    After being together with L and G2a group , the next marker it is with is J2 ( phoenician main marker )............be it 14000 years ago ( T1-Pages21 ) in the northern Levant or 9000 years ago in northern egypt it also trvelled with the phoenician J2.
    Btw there is a lot of L marker in northern Levant.

    I agree, Is very unlikely that T1a traveled together to J1. T1a subclade distributions in Europe doesn't match to J1 distribution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's what I have said for several years. I mentioned E-M78 among Mesolithic Southeast Europeans and Southwest Europeans, and that includes E-V13. It isn't only E-V13 though. Europeans also have many indigenous subclades of E-V12 and E-V22 - hence the umbrella term M78.
    Lets not forget however that 85% of all E-M78 in Europe are E-V13 and the origins and frequencies outside of Europe visa vi of E-V12 and E-V22 tell different mutation locations, dates and migration stories

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Lets not forget however that 85% of all E-M78 in Europe are E-V13 and the origins and frequencies outside of Europe visa vi of E-V12 and E-V22 tell different mutation locations, dates and migration stories
    E-L618 (ancestral to E-V13) and E-V22 are brother clades

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1919/

    while E-V13 is Eurasian, E-V22 is mixed with African and Eurasian subclades

    IMO they were in the Nile Delta during the 8.2 ka climate event
    some E-V22 went alongside E-V88 into Africa as cattle herders
    the other tribes came into cantact with the Carded Ware people along the Mediterranean shores

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the other tribes came into cantact with the Carded Ware people along the Mediterranean shores
    If that had been the case, then we would have E-L618 in Northeast Africa today. But it does not exist there, which makes your scenario unfounded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    E-L618 (ancestral to E-V13) and E-V22 are brother clades

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1919/

    while E-V13 is Eurasian, E-V22 is mixed with African and Eurasian subclades

    IMO they were in the Nile Delta during the 8.2 ka climate event
    some E-V22 went alongside E-V88 into Africa as cattle herders
    the other tribes came into cantact with the Carded Ware people along the Mediterranean shores
    Bicicleur, I suggest you read the individual migration routes of the three subclades under E-78. Example it states that it is believed that E-V13 mutated in West Asia contrary to say E-V12 that it is believed to have mutated in North Africa.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

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    This is a tricky time period to reduce to subclades, considering how few actual samples we have for the time period. I'd be interested to see if your predictions for SE Europe are accurate in particular, since we have to extrapolate there without much to extrapolate from. I guess I don't have a better proposal for the region at the moment.

    I suppose we're mainly using the Motala samples to guess what Scandinavia would have been like. If so, I think it should include I2c, since that was found there (Motala2). It's a bit misleading to have I2c in Anatolia but nowhere in Europe when it's not clear yet which location is the origin point (and I vote Europe FWIW).

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    This is a tricky time period to reduce to subclades, considering how few actual samples we have for the time period. I'd be interested to see if your predictions for SE Europe are accurate in particular, since we have to extrapolate there without much to extrapolate from. I guess I don't have a better proposal for the region at the moment.

    I suppose we're mainly using the Motala samples to guess what Scandinavia would have been like. If so, I think it should include I2c, since that was found there (Motala2). It's a bit misleading to have I2c in Anatolia but nowhere in Europe when it's not clear yet which location is the origin point (and I vote Europe FWIW).
    I2c could have had a wide distribution from Anatolia to Scandinavia via Central Europe. After all I2a and I2a1 had an evene wider distribution all over Europe. Anyway I have added to Scandinavia considering the evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    1) R1a wasn't part of the cattle-herding Yamna culture.
    So far it seems so, however, R1a was part of the cattle-herding Khvalynsk culture.

    Such a comparison of R1a vs. R1b samples from the Eurasian steppe known to date:

    The first sample of R1a in the steppe appears in Khvalynsk culture, alongside R1b:

    Abbreviations used:

    EHG = Eastern Hunter-Gatherers
    EBA = Early Bronze Age
    LBA = Late Bronze Age

    Steppe culture: R1a samples: R1b samples: Dates of samples: Approximate location:
    Samara EHG
    (other EHG)
    0 (2) 1 5650-5555 BC Samara region
    Khvalynsk 1 1 4700-3800 BC Samara region,
    Khvalynsk II
    Yamnaya 0 11 3340-2620 BC Samara region,
    Buribay, Elista
    Poltavka 1 4 2925-2200 BC Samara region
    Stalingrad EBA 0 1 2857-2497 BC Stalingrad Quarry
    Xiaohe Tomb complex 11 0 2558-1940 BC Tarim Basin
    Potapovka 2 0 2469-1900 BC Samara region
    Sintashta 2 0 2298-1896 BC Orenburg,
    Chelyabinsk
    Srubnaya 6 0 1850-1200 BC Samara region
    Andronovo 3 0 1800-1298 BC Barnaul, Uzhur,
    Abakan
    Mezhovskaya 1 1 1598-700 BC Kapova Cave
    Karasuk 2 0 1416-1261 BC Altai Krai
    Altai Scythians 4 0 1371-1011 BC Mongolian Altai
    Tanais Scythians 1 0 older than
    1000 BC
    Maeotia,
    Azov steppe
    Afontova Gora LBA 1 0 926-815 BC Krasnoyarsk region
    Tagar 6 0 800 BC -
    100 AD
    Khakassia, Krasnoyarsk
    Pazyryk 1 0 450 BC Sebystei Valley
    Sabinka II
    Iron Age
    1 0 396-209 BC Altai Krai
    Volga Scythians 1 0 380-200 BC Balakovo region
    Tashtyk 1 0 100-400 AD Khakassia
    Caucasus Alans 1 0 400-600 AD Krasnyy Kurgan region
    Saltovo-Mayaki 1 0 800-900 AD eastern part of
    Belgorod Oblast
    TOTAL: 47 (2) 19 5650 BC -
    900 AD
    Eurasian steppes

    We can also add 2 Bronze Age R1b samples from the Armenian Plateau to this list (1906-855 BC).

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    2) R1a was already all over European Russia in the Mesolithic (also R1b for that matter, but not yet R1b-V88 and R1b-L23).
    That R1a in European Russia was also not yet M198, but some more archaic clades, such as M420*, M459* and YP1272.

    Well, maybe M198 was also present among some groups of EHGs - but it has not been found yet, AFAIK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    3) The R1a phylogeny started to explode downstream of M417 from 3500 BCE (TMRCA for M417 according to Yfull), especially with the formation of the Z283 and Z93 subclades (formed c. 3000 BCE), which is far too recent for a Neolithic expansion.
    According to Genetiker, many R1a samples in German Corded Ware were xZ645 - perhaps CTS4385, L664, M417*, M198*.

    It seems that some clades of R1a which are rather rare today, could be more numerous in the past. Maybe even M198*.

    I was surprised by such results. It now seems that R1a-L664 in Western Europe all came from Western Corded Ware.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 30-11-15 at 21:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So far it seems so, however, R1a was part of the cattle-herding Khvalynsk culture.
    Good point, but the Pontic-Caspian Steppes were inhabited by R1a HG tribes when R1b cattle herders crossed over the Caucasus. It wasn't virgin land. Therefore it must have taken a few centuries for R1b herders to occupy the large territory that would become Yamna and drive out the indigenous R1a people.

    At first it is to be expected that R1b and R1a lived side by side for a while. In fact, the way I conceived the Indo-European migrations when I started my migration maps in 2009 was that a minority (about 5-10%) of R1a people joined the R1b cattle herders before the Yamna culture, by the time (4200 BCE) the first horse riders started raiding the copper-rich towns of the Balkans. In other words, this was during the Khvalynsk culture (in the Volga) and Dnieper-Donets culture (in Ukraine). The reason that I found it necessary to included an R1a minority among R1b Steppe people is that the horse was domesticated c. 4600 BCE in the Middle Volga region, and that was probably too early for R1b to have been there. So there must have been a merger between cattle-herding R1b with their wagons and copper tools on the one hand, and the R1a horse-riders on the other. Riding horses were the perfect way to manage herds of cows on the open steppe. That's what I wrote in my R1b history.

    The reason that I thought R1a people were just a minority is that the first wave of IE migrations to SE Europe, the one that eventually went up the Danube and invaded Central and Western Europe (Megalithic Bell Beakers) had to be predominantly R1b, as R1b is the dominant haplogroup in Western Europe. However R1b countries settled between 2500 and 2000 BCE (Austria, Czech Rep., Germany, Switzerland, Benelux, France, British Isles) all possess a minority of R1a-L664. That's why I wrote that L664 was the R1a branch that got integrated early into R1b tribes and accompanied the R1b migration to Central and Western Europe.

    According to Genetiker, many R1a samples in German Corded Ware were xZ645 - perhaps CTS4385, L664, M417*, M198*.

    It seems that some clades of R1a which are rather rare today, could be more numerous in the past. Maybe even M198*.

    I was surprised by such results. It now seems that R1a-L664 in Western Europe all came from Western Corded Ware.
    Another possibility was indeed that L664 wasn't integrated in the Steppe before R1b-L51 went west, but only got absorbed when R1b overran the Corded Ware around Germany c. 2500 BCE.

    However since Z283 is so common in Germany and the Scandinavian branch, descended from Corded Ware, is undeniably Z283>Z284, I still stand by my theory that Corded Ware must have possessed Z283. It's also possible that other side lineages were present, including L664 and extinct branches.

    Actually the fact that Khvalynsk had some R1a integrated with cattle-herding R1b society reinforces my suspicions that R1a-L644 was integrated into R1b tribes before Yamna. But L644 could have been present both in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe and in the northern forested Steppe that would give rise to the Corded Ware. It's the same region so it's only natural that the same lineage should be present in both areas. Additionally Corded Ware could only develop thanks to an influx of R1b-L23 people who brought cattles and copper technology. I always said that Bronze Age R1b tribes possessed a 10% minority of R1a-L644, and R1a tribes a 10-20% minority of R1b-L23. That's also why about 10% of R1b-L23 is found in all Slavic countries today (not including later Celtic R1b-S116 and Germanic R1b-S21).
    Last edited by Maciamo; 01-12-15 at 10:12.

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    Maciamo, thanks for all the hard work you put into making the latest in population genetics accessible to us laymen. The maps and summaries are enjoyable and informative.

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    I think that R1a from Xiaohe Tomb complex is going to surprise us!

    I can't wait until they finally publish more precise data on subclades.

    =========================

    The 2nd oldest (after Khvalynsk) R1a sample from the steppe - Poltavka, dated 2925-2536 BC - is R1a1a1b2a Z94.

    According to YFull Z94 formed 4800 ybp (ca. 2800 BC) and its TMRCA was also 4800 ybp (ca. 2800 BC):

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/
    Last edited by Tomenable; 30-11-15 at 22:22.

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    The part about North Africa is complete speculation. Ancient Guance Berber remains had quite a lot of R1b and I. Those were probably the original NW African y-dna haplogroups. E-M81 came with proto-afro asiatics from eastern Africa, alongside mtdna haplotype M1. Some of those guys mixed with R1b-V88 dudes in Marocco and later migrated in Mali as Chadic speakers. One of the neolitich farmer in Spain was V88 but he could have got it from the Levantine farmers (???).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danelaw View Post
    The part about North Africa is complete speculation. Ancient Guance Berber remains had quite a lot of R1b and I. Those were probably the original NW African y-dna haplogroups. E-M81 came with proto-afro asiatics from eastern Africa, alongside mtdna haplotype M1. Some of those guys mixed with R1b-V88 dudes in Marocco and later migrated in Mali as Chadic speakers. One of the neolitich farmer in Spain was V88 but he could have got it from the Levantine farmers (???).
    You are one to talk about speculation by placing R1b in Mesolithic Northwest Africa ! It's possible that I was present (considering the H1, U5 and V maternal lineages), but certainly not R1b.

    As Mesolithic Egyptians almost certainly possessed high percentages of E-M78, it is very likely that it was found all over North Africa. Besides, E-V13 was found in Early Neolithic Spain and as far as we know it wasn't brought by Neolithic farmers, as it hasn't shown up anywhere else. So E-M78 must have been present in Southern Europe and North Africa during the Mesolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You are one to talk about speculation by placing R1b in Mesolithic Northwest Africa ! It's possible that I was present (considering the H1, U5 and V maternal lineages), but certainly not R1b.As Mesolithic Egyptians almost certainly possessed high percentages of E-M78, it is very likely that it was found all over North Africa. Besides, E-V13 was found in Early Neolithic Spain and as far as we know it wasn't brought by Neolithic farmers, as it hasn't shown up anywhere else. So E-M78 must have been present in Southern Europe and North Africa during the Mesolithic.
    Ok so V88 could have arrived with G2 neolitich farmers from the Levant. It makes sense. But I do believe that it arrived earlier than E-M81, which was brought by proto Afro Asiatic speakers from Eastern Africa about 5000 years ago. V88 probably joined these duded in their Southern migration to become proto-Chadic speakers in Mali and Niger.

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    Very interesting, thank you for posting. Although I got to wonder what the archeologists are going to call the Mesolithic Caucasian culture not to mention Anatolia. I guess time will only tell ^_^


    Quote Originally Posted by Danelaw View Post
    The part about North Africa is complete speculation. Ancient Guance Berber remains had quite a lot of R1b and I. Those were probably the original NW African y-dna haplogroups. E-M81 came with proto-afro asiatics from eastern Africa, alongside mtdna haplotype M1. Some of those guys mixed with R1b-V88 dudes in Marocco and later migrated in Mali as Chadic speakers. One of the neolitich farmer in Spain was V88 but he could have got it from the Levantine farmers (???).
    Do you have a source claiming that R1b spread out into Africa as early as Mesolithic times?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Good point, but the Pontic-Caspian Steppes were inhabited by R1a HG tribes when R1b cattle herders crossed over the Caucasus. It wasn't virgin land. Therefore it must have taken a few centuries for R1b herders to occupy the large territory that would become Yamna and drive out the indigenous R1a people.
    Although this theory is plausible, one of problems is the fact that so far there is no proof that HG tribes in the Pontic-Caspian tribes were R1a. Quite the opposite, the only known HG sample from the steppe - Samara HG - was R1b. Two samples of R1a HGs were found far away from the steppe, but they were xM198, so they are about as irrelevant to the Indo-European question as Chadic-speaking R1b-V88 in Neolithic Iberia. The oldest R1a from the steppe appears in Khvalynsk culture and it autosomally distinct from Mesolithic HGs, it is also autosomally the same as R1b sample from Khvalynsk culture (I'm not sure about autosomal DNA of that 3rd sample which was Q1a and was buried without any grave goods, he was also killed by 4 strikes against his head - perhaps he was an intruder from some hostile tribe, and not part of the community, unlike the other two samples).

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    However since Z283 is so common in Germany and the Scandinavian branch, descended from Corded Ware, is undeniably Z283>Z284, I still stand by my theory that Corded Ware must have possessed Z283. It's also possible that other side lineages were present, including L664 and extinct branches.
    Territory occupied by Corded Ware culture was huge, extending from the Rhine to the Volga. Z283 was probably more prevalent in Central and Eastern CW, while xZ645 was probably more numerous in Western CW. Later there took place "in situ" migrations within the former Corded Ware zone, such as Baltic migrations (according to Gimbutas up to the Oder, IIRC) and Slavic migrations (beyond the Elbe). A common Balto-Slavic subclade R1a1a1b1a2 Z280 appears in Germany for the first time in I0099 / HAL36 Urnfield sample from Halberstadt, dated to 1113-1021 BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    That's also why about 10% of R1b-L23 is found in all Slavic countries today
    I think this amount is closer to 5%, at least if we believe N. Myres et al. 2010:

    R1b-M269 in Poland according to N. Myres 2010 (n=202):

    L51 (= 11,91% of Y-DNA and 64,9% of R1b):

    U106(xU198) ------------- 0,0594 (= 5,94%)
    U152 ---------------------- 0,0347 (= 3,47%)
    S116*(xM529xU152) ---- 0,0101 (= 1,01%)
    M529(xM222) ------------ 0,0099 (= 0,99%)
    L11*(xU106xS116) ------ 0,005 (= 0,5%)

    xL51 (= 6,44% of Y-DNA and 35,1% of R1b):

    L23(xM412) -------------- 0,0544 (= 5,44%)
    M269(xL23) -------------- 0,005 (= 0,5%)
    M412(xL11) -------------- 0,005 (= 0,5%)

    M269 all ------------------ 0,1835 (= 18,35%)

    And in Germany also according to Myres 2010 (n=321):

    L51 (= 42,05% of Y-DNA and 95,8% of R1b):

    U106(xU198) ------------- 0,19 (= 19%)
    U198 ---------------------- 0,0187 (= 1,87%)
    U152 ---------------------- 0,1028 (= 10,28%)
    S116*(xM529xU152) ---- 0,0685 (= 6,85%)
    M529(xM222) ------------ 0,0187 (= 1,87%)
    M222 --------------------- 0,0031 (= 0,31%)
    L11*(xU106xS116) ------ 0,0187 (= 1,87%)

    xL51 (= 1,83% of Y-DNA and 4,2% of R1b):

    L23(xM412) -------------- 0,0062 (= 0,62%)
    M269(xL23) -------------- 0,009 (= 0,9%)
    M412(xL11) -------------- 0,0031 (= 0,31%)

    M269 all ------------------ 0,4388 (= 43,88%)

    More data in Supplementary Table S4:

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...2010146s1.html

    Here a graph (made by user Hereward from The Apricity):

    http://s21.postimg.org/bb07dljdz/Myres_Graph.png



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