Distribution map of Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup in and around Europe circa 8000 BCE

Tomenable said:
When it comes to haplogroups of Xiaohe mummies:

Y-DNA = R1a (11 samples = ca. 92%) and K (one sample = ca. 8%)
mtDNA = H, K, U5, U7, U2e, T, R*, C4, C5, B, D, G2a, M5 and maybe M*

Authors claim that C4 and C5 are "East Asian", but in fact they are native Siberian, and also present in Europe:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/09/european-specific-mtdna-c-from.html
Click to expand...

if they are not Z-93 then they probably were not Andronovo

there are signs of contacts between China and Indo-Europeans before Andronovo (horses, cattle herders, bronze ...)

1280px-From_Neolithic_to_Bronze_Age_in_China.jpg


the contacts came 2 ways : north via Manchuria and through the Gansu corridor
contact was not allways direct, it was via middle men
Q1a1-M120 arrived in NW China > 3 ka, they became part of the aristocracy of the early Han Chinese
N arrived from Manchuria, often as cattle herder , it is also a component of early Han Chinese (3 ka)
Lower Xiajidian culture (3-2.4 ka) involves arrival of cattle herders from Mongolia, probably C2 people who had been in contact with Tochars before Andronovo
Those C2 did not become part of the Han Chinese though.
The peasants in central China prior to the Han were O and many of them had allready moved south for more farming lands into Indochina prior to the formation of the Han Chinese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qijia_culture
 
Maciamo said:
That's what I have said for several years. I mentioned E-M78 among Mesolithic Southeast Europeans and Southwest Europeans, and that includes E-V13. It isn't only E-V13 though. Europeans also have many indigenous subclades of E-V12 and E-V22 - hence the umbrella term M78.
Click to expand...

Lets not forget however that 85% of all E-M78 in Europe are E-V13 and the origins and frequencies outside of Europe visa vi of E-V12 and E-V22 tell different mutation locations, dates and migration stories
 
Maleth said:
Lets not forget however that 85% of all E-M78 in Europe are E-V13 and the origins and frequencies outside of Europe visa vi of E-V12 and E-V22 tell different mutation locations, dates and migration stories
Click to expand...

E-L618 (ancestral to E-V13) and E-V22 are brother clades

http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1919/

while E-V13 is Eurasian, E-V22 is mixed with African and Eurasian subclades

IMO they were in the Nile Delta during the 8.2 ka climate event
some E-V22 went alongside E-V88 into Africa as cattle herders
the other tribes came into cantact with the Carded Ware people along the Mediterranean shores
 
bicicleur said:
the other tribes came into cantact with the Carded Ware people along the Mediterranean shores
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If that had been the case, then we would have E-L618 in Northeast Africa today. But it does not exist there, which makes your scenario unfounded.
 
Shetop said:
If that had been the case, then we would have E-L618 in Northeast Africa today. But it does not exist there, which makes your scenario unfounded.
Click to expand...

and where is E-L618 today? do you have data?

according to YFull E-L618 and E-V13 split 7600 year ago
 
bicicleur said:
E-L618 (ancestral to E-V13) and E-V22 are brother clades

http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1919/

while E-V13 is Eurasian, E-V22 is mixed with African and Eurasian subclades

IMO they were in the Nile Delta during the 8.2 ka climate event
some E-V22 went alongside E-V88 into Africa as cattle herders
the other tribes came into cantact with the Carded Ware people along the Mediterranean shores
Click to expand...

Bicicleur, I suggest you read the individual migration routes of the three subclades under E-78. Example it states that it is believed that E-V13 mutated in West Asia contrary to say E-V12 that it is believed to have mutated in North Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68
 
Maleth said:
And what we believe now?
Click to expand...

:) Well, I'm sure that what I believe is not something everyone would agree with.
So, my opinion is that E-V13 SNP originated in Europe. There are multiple reasons for that, but presence of E-L618(xV13) in Europe is one of the main ones.
 
Shetop said:
:) Well, I'm sure that what I believe is not something everyone would agree with.
So, my opinion is that E-V13 SNP originated in Europe. There are multiple reasons for that, but presence of E-L618(xV13) in Europe is one of the main ones.
Click to expand...

Ok so we are on the same lines, by the way it has also been suggested in one of the papers :)
 
that is what I meant
somewhere around 8 ka E-L618 and a few subclades of E-V22 were picked up near the Nile delta along the shores of the Mediteranean into Eurasia
E-L618 and E-V13 split a little bit later, 7.6 ka
acording to YFull E-V13 didn't split before 4.3 ka , maybe E-L618* split even later
 
bicicleur said:
that is what I meant
somewhere around 8 ka E-L618 and a few subclades of E-V22 were picked up near the Nile delta along the shores of the Mediteranean into Eurasia
E-L618 and E-V13 split a little bit later, 7.6 ka
acording to YFull E-V13 didn't split before 4.3 ka , maybe E-L618* split even later
Click to expand...

One thing is certain - L618 mutation happened before V13. That is why L618 geographic distribution is very important for understanding V13.
 
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