Maybe we're all looking at different data?
I just went to the link Fire-Haired posted in the OP. I see 21 Anatolian Neolithic samples. Five show some CHG: .01, .03, .04, .04, .04, and the rest are at 0. So, some CHG was filtering in, but not very much.
Someone refresh my recollection...these are only the earliest ANF samples? So, is that late Barcin sample included in this calculator?
More ancient samples will sort this out, and we haven't even seen the Lazaridis analysis of the Anatolian Neolithic (I even wonder if they'll wow us with some older, more southern samples as it's taking so long, or provide us with a comparison with Caucasus samples).
But, while waiting for that I think it would be interesting to have some other samples run through this calculator.
How about that Greek sample from 4000 BC which was said to be EEF like.
If it's true that there was no change in Greece in the Bronze Age, and the change was from the early Neolithic to the Late Neolithic, when exactly did things change and from where did the migrants come, and also what language did they speak? 4,000 BC seems pretty late to me, so it's important to be sure about the level of CHG in that sample. If there really is none, then did it arrive very shortly after that?
How about the J2 samples in Hungary? Have they been run through the calculator?
DaneLaw: Y-dna haplogroup J was already present in Anatolian Neolitich farmers who had no CHG. Most of the Caucasus stuff most likely was spread by females in the late neolitich-early copper age.
Well, actually, a few of them did, as I just pointed out. Also, if you're going to claim it was all or "mostly" spread by women from the Caucasus, to which specific mtDna subclades are you referring, and how did these women get to Europe? Did copper workers from the Caucasus bring them? If so, what yDna would they have carried? Or perhaps men from the Balkans also went all the way to the Caucasus to steal wives? What on earth were these Caucasus women like?
Danelaw: In Italy there is about 30% of non Steppe derived CHG, in North Europe is 15-20%. Oetzi had 6% of CHG, so the total post neolitich non steppe derived CHG in Italy is 25%, which is not far from Hungarian levels (20%).
Where are you getting this data? The link provided shows 35% Total CHG for Northern Italy, and 40% for Tuscany. (It's true that the Northern Italian percentage is almost exactly the same as that of Slovenia, and there are Central European and English samples with 34 and 36%. Heck, everybody in Europe gets at least 30%. The Greeks have even more, with 45%. The Albanians, Bulgarians, Bosnians, and a lot of the Romanians get 40% and higher.) There are no percentages for southern Italians.
How do you know how much of that is non-steppe? What is your source? It would be helpful if you would provide details on how you computed the percentages for both North Italians and Central Italians, and what the percentage of non-steppe CHG would be for the rest of Europe.
Originally Posted by
Alan didn't just recently a paper appear which said that proto Latin scripts were found in Crete? All I can say that also fits with with Maciamos R1b root of Indo Europeans theory. That some of the Indo Europeans moved via Anatolia. I suspect that most of the Latin and Greek Indo European ancstors came via the Anatolian root. Explains also why most of the post Neolithic samples of Italy which were thought to present the first Indo European introduction into the region turned out predominantly EF. The first Latin speakers might indeed have been more heavily EF and CHG. Would also explain while everyhwere were there are Roman traces Haplogroup R1b and J2a are strong.
Latin is very close to Celtic. I would surmise that the speakers of the two languages originated in the same area. Later, Italo-Cetlic either split, or the groups were in proximity and the two language branches developed separated from a common root. Greek is on a different branch, and came with another migration, I think. I'm not sure about anything at this stage, but I think it's
possible that some Indo-European speakers, perhaps CHG heavy and EHG light, entered Europe through Anatolia. That's the old "Greeks from the East" scenario. It's equally possible or perhaps more probable that Anthony is correct and that they came from the steppe and then down into the Balkans. If the latter is the case that leaves us with two scenarios? The CHG came before the "Greek Indo-European" speakers arrived, and the latter had little demographic impact, which might fit in with the paper that didn't see much change in the Bronze Age, or somehow the Greek Indo-European speakers came from an area on the steppe that was more CHG heavy or passed through some CHG heavy area.
Ed. Of course, this could just be a terrible calculator, which is pulling some EEF into CHG, inflating those levels, and pulling some EHG into the WHG cluster.