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Thread: So it's official that Original Turks , Xiongnu, Huns, Gokturks were Mongoloid?

  1. #26
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    Haplogroup C1a also could be found in ancient DNA from Europe until Neolithic times.

    For example prehistoric Kostenki14 who lived in Russia at the Volga River had C1a.

    It has not disappeared completely, it seems.

    For example in a sample of 234 people from Halle an der Saale, one (0,43%) had C.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There was no such thing as "Aryan migration", it was migration of Indo-European speakers and Aryan is not a racial terms, it means "noble"
    Aryan at first meant "companion", not noble (it started to mean "noble" later). This is how Indo-Iranians described themselves.

    In addition the Indian branch of Indo-Iranian languages and peoples is called Indo-Aryan languages (and Indo-Aryan peoples).

    So using a term "Aryan migration" is not incorrect. You can as well use a term "Indo-Aryan migration".

    Pazyryk culture (600 BC) Males were R1a part Mongoloid, females were Europoid.
    Pazyryk culture were people who spoke Iranian languages - not Turkic. What was their physical type is a different issue.

    But it is IMO impossible that males and females of the same reproductive communicy can be so different "racially".

    Maybe they are drawing conclusions based on a very small sample of people.

    R1a in India predate the existence of any ethnic group.
    Ethnic groups exist as long as humans do, so how can it "predate the existence of any ethnic group"?

    The first ethnic group which expanded out of Africa, was the "Out-of-Africa Tribe" - check:

    The society of our “out of Africa” ancestors (I)
    The migrant warriors that colonized the world:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104569/

    The “Out of Africa Tribe” (II):
    Paleolithic warriors with big canoes and protective weapons:


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3656025/

    Culture Out of Africa:

    http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/culture.htm

    Also R1a in India were clearly not European
    Who said they were European? R1a-Z93 split from R1a-Z283 somewhere near the Ural Mountains, it seems.

    At least in Kapova Cave in the Ural they found a burial of a man with Z645, which is ancestral to both Z93 and Z283.

    because Indian are DNA mixture of 2 large components. They are West Asian and Weddoids.
    A lot of North Indian ancestry is from the Eurasian steppe as well, because that's where Indo-Aryans came from.

    By the Eurasian steppe in this case I mean mostly Central Asia, Southern Russia and the Ural Region.

    West Asia is to the south and to the south-west of Central Asia, and that's not where Indo-Aryans came from:

    Central Asia according to 3 different definitions:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla
    The Pazyryk culture is Indo-European but many of the burials are between Half Mongoloid men with Europoid females, the males seems to be R1a. The R1a in Turkic could have predated Turkic ethnicity and languages rather than recieving from Indo-Europeans.

    It's only 1 Western Eurasian male. The others 2 were found to be a male with haplogroup C3 and mtDNA D4, and another with D4.

    Three Xiongnu elite

    1 Xiongnu R1a and U2e1
    1 Xiongnu C3 and D4
    1 Xiognu with D4.
    I know that one was Caucasoid and 2 were Mongoloid. But you claimed, that the one with R1a was Mongoloid - which isn't true.

    The R1a elite burial was that of a West Eurasian male, while one of the other two elite burials was that of a C3 Mongoloid male.

    This pattern can also be observed in other burials of racially mixed communities of that region in which C and Q haplogroups correlate with more Mongoloid features and darker hair & eyes, while R1a with more Caucasoid features and lighter hair & eyes.

    In terms of mitochondrial (mtDNA) female haplogroups, there was also a mix of West Eurasian and East Asian lineages.

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    That is the point we can't define C Haplogroup as phenotypes developed over thousands of years of adaptation. The original phenotype would be African if one morphs African with current groups that would be how East Asians, Mid East, Siberian and Europeans looked after the Ice Age. There are software that does that. Models of ancient people show African descent. The refined features developed over thousands of years.

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    So - what do you think - were original Proto-Turks more like Turks from Siberia, or more like Turks from Central Asia?

    Today, there are considerable "racial" differences between these two groups (different proportions of Caucasoid/Mongoloid):

    http://s9.postimg.org/qfaoixfsv/Human_clusters.png


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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    If one looks at the Y DNA tree all non-Africans are from C Haplogroup. Just one branch remained that identifies the mongols. However, mongols are composed of many tribes. Genghis Khan is the one who unified them all and the mongols were formed. It is said he had red hair and green eyes. All non-Africans are C Haplogroup at the very top. The later adaptations are to local environment, diet and customs or culture.
    But than again Green eyes, red hair, blonde hair, blue eyes is nothing unsual for the Mongolians, Kazakhs, Nenets, Tuvans, Selkups. It even exists in the Hmong population where caucasian admixture is 0%

    Mongolians



    Kazakhs and Tuvans


    Nenets


    Selkups


    Hmong

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    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    If one looks at the Y DNA tree all non-Africans are from C Haplogroup. Just one branch remained that identifies the mongols. However, mongols are composed of many tribes. Genghis Khan is the one who unified them all and the mongols were formed. It is said he had red hair and green eyes. All non-Africans are C Haplogroup at the very top. The later adaptations are to local environment, diet and customs or culture.
    However these traits are nothing unsual for Central Asian and Siberian Mongoloids. You can find Hmong with similar traits even though they have 0% Caucasian admixture. So Genghis Khan would have look like a Mongoloid with light traits.

    Mongolians on average have 3-5% Caucasian admixture but some have 10-15%.




    Besides the drawing of Odegei Khan, the Chinese draw him very Mongoloid


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Haplogroup C1a also could be found in ancient DNA from Europe until Neolithic times.

    For example prehistoric Kostenki14 who lived in Russia at the Volga River had C1a.

    It has not disappeared completely, it seems.

    For example in a sample of 234 people from Halle an der Saale, one (0,43%) had C.
    Haplogroup C is a complicated and diverse marker.

    C3 is typical of Mongolic speakers
    C2 is typical of Melanesian Black Papuan
    C4 is typical of Australian aborigines
    C5 is typical of North Indian sub-tribes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Aryan at first meant "companion", not noble (it started to mean "noble" later). This is how Indo-Iranians described themselves.

    In addition the Indian branch of Indo-Iranian languages and peoples is called Indo-Aryan languages (and Indo-Aryan peoples).

    So using a term "Aryan migration" is not incorrect. You can as well use a term "Indo-Aryan migration".



    Pazyryk culture were people who spoke Iranian languages - not Turkic. What was their physical type is a different issue.

    But it is IMO impossible that males and females of the same reproductive communicy can be so different "racially".

    Maybe they are drawing conclusions based on a very small sample of people.



    Ethnic groups exist as long as humans do, so how can it "predate the existence of any ethnic group"?

    The first ethnic group which expanded out of Africa, was the "Out-of-Africa Tribe" - check:

    The society of our “out of Africa” ancestors (I)
    The migrant warriors that colonized the world:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104569/

    The “Out of Africa Tribe” (II):
    Paleolithic warriors with big canoes and protective weapons:


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3656025/

    Culture Out of Africa:

    http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/culture.htm



    Who said they were European? R1a-Z93 split from R1a-Z283 somewhere near the Ural Mountains, it seems.

    At least in Kapova Cave in the Ural they found a burial of a man with Z645, which is ancestral to both Z93 and Z283.



    A lot of North Indian ancestry is from the Eurasian steppe as well, because that's where Indo-Aryans came from.

    By the Eurasian steppe in this case I mean mostly Central Asia, Southern Russia and the Ural Region.

    West Asia is to the south and to the south-west of Central Asia, and that's not where Indo-Aryans came from:

    Central Asia according to 3 different definitions:



    My point is R1a have many different variations and mutations. So one cannot really say Turkic R1a is the same as Indo-Europeans because it long intermixed with different ethnic group and mutated into it's own unique marker ( predating the Turkic ethnicity ). North Indians indo-aryan ancestry are derived from to the area of Afghanistan-Pakistan and they had already intermixed with the Weddoid/Dravidian like people. All Afghan, Pakistan, North Indians have weddoid admixture, Afghan having the lowest 10-15% while Pakistan and North Indians have 45-55%.

    History is far too complexed. The people who migrated to India would have still looked like modern day Pakistani and east Afghans, they wouldn't have looked like some nordic type people.


    A very broad definition of Central Asia. North India in South Asia bothers next to Tibet ( Sino-Tibetan speakers ) Pakistan not central Asia. While Pakistan bothers next to Afghanistan, Tibet, North India. Afghanistan is considered a South Asian country, sometimes in tge Middle east but realistlically they were inbetween Middle east, South Asia, Central Asia.

    China and Tibet are sino-Tibetan, Mongolia are Mongolic speakers.

    And this region Qinghai are Tibetan speakers rather than Han Chinese



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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So - what do you think - were original Proto-Turks more like Turks from Siberia, or more like Turks from Central Asia?

    Today, there are considerable "racial" differences between these two groups (different proportions of Caucasoid/Mongoloid):

    http://s9.postimg.org/qfaoixfsv/Human_clusters.png

    Most likely original Turks were from Siberia. And than they mixed with Indo-Europeans of Central Asia ( both from Turkic and Mongol-Turkic invasion ).

    Anatolian were mixed with the Turkic and Turkified Indo-Europeans to become the modern Turkish people.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I know that one was Caucasoid and 2 were Mongoloid. But you claimed, that the one with R1a was Mongoloid - which isn't true.

    The R1a elite burial was that of a West Eurasian male, while one of the other two elite burials was that of a C3 Mongoloid male.

    This pattern can also be observed in other burials of racially mixed communities of that region in which C and Q haplogroups correlate with more Mongoloid features and darker hair & eyes, while R1a with more Caucasoid features and lighter hair & eyes.

    In terms of mitochondrial (mtDNA) female haplogroups, there was also a mix of West Eurasian and East Asian lineages.
    They found only 1 western eurasian male, what about his descendants and others with R1a? surely they were mixed with Mongoloid. The Xiongnu should have significant R1a since Xiongnu also have 11% European mtDNA but all they found was 1 western eurasian male. And I'm curious, do they even say he is pure western Eurasian based on genetics or anthropology ? because even the Scythians were already mixed but with small degrees of Mongoloid admixture despite their western eurasian Y-DNA and mtDNA

    Kyrgyz have 63% R1a and 42% western Eurasian mtDNA but are genetically 68% - 72% Mongoloid as anyone can clearly see from that autosomal DNA you provided.

    Surely there is a at least some Kyrgyz with R1a with western eurasian mtDNA and still look Mongoloid.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    I'm fine with the wording. I don't see Mongolians being any less Asian than others.
    Again I will use Sardinian Example. Which ethnic group can give you a example Sardinian, Greeks in Crete, People of Sicily, South Italy? If you take the reference of South Italian as a mediterraean race, Turkey and other North West Asian countries will be more Mediterranean, in Sicily case, Egypt can be seem as more mediterraean. But the truth just can be found with Sardinians.

    but whatever

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    However these traits are nothing unsual for Central Asian and Siberian Mongoloids. You can find Hmong with similar traits even though they have 0% Caucasian admixture. So Genghis Khan would have look like a Mongoloid with light traits.

    Mongolians on average have 3-5% Caucasian admixture but some have 10-15%.




    Besides the drawing of Odegei Khan, the Chinese draw him very Mongoloid

    Before other proofs I still think light pigmentation for eyes and hairs is an 'europoid' trait yet not universal among 'europoids';
    the 0% of something in rough autosomals admixtures is not the proof of 0% true admixture - the small numbers or alleles pairs involved in pigmentation can pass 'incognito' through rough estimations? all the way the unique way to know is a peer analysis of the chromosomes segments concerned by pigmentation (for what we know) as it has been done for red hairs among Jamaicans, which showed being caused by genes in European inherited segments.
    WHo knows: maybe it will be discovered other mutations among typica mongoloids? But I wait serious results before changing mind.

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    @Gurka
    You say yourself Miongols have some degrees of 'caucasian' DNA and this is enough to explain the rare cases of light pigmentation which is not "not-unusual" as you say. To solve the problem it would be possible to make states of light pigmentations %s and 'caucasian' DNA %s ???

    &: the female of your post #35 is far to be pure mongloid, according to my criteria

    Thanks for the picture. I 'm not far to think that the first turkic speakers of Altai were (at this stage of the language birth) a predominently 'mongoloid' group but they had already a slight 'caucasian' admixture, which one augmented with time and colonizations towards West.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Gurka
    You say yourself Miongols have some degrees of 'caucasian' DNA and this is enough to explain the rare cases of light pigmentation which is not "not-unusual" as you say. To solve the problem it would be possible to make states of light pigmentations %s and 'caucasian' DNA %s ???

    &: the female of your post #35 is far to be pure mongloid, according to my criteria

    Thanks for the picture. I 'm not far to think that the first turkic speakers of Altai were (at this stage of the language birth) a predominently 'mongoloid' group but they had already a slight 'caucasian' admixture, which one augmented with time and colonizations towards West.
    asian eyes with red hair
    https://aratta.wordpress.com/2015/01...y-of-red-hair/

    most populace people with red hair
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people

    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=u...HWzVA5oQsAQIKQ
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    THanks for kind communication of rough compilation texts plus some interesting pictures; nothing new to me.
    they are interesting in that they show Udmurts have more europoid traits than mongoloid traits as a whole, and perhaps an old undifferantiated type at play too (the proto-uralic type of some scientists) - the point is that there are several mutations favorizing red hairs and that the three commonest are all centered in Europe among today 98% 'europoid' types; have we a typical "red hair mutation" specific for North Central Asia or East Asia? it could help.
    when population mate one together, none has the property of the mutation, but different percentages can help to show the direction of flow and explain history.
    Buona notte

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Before other proofs I still think light pigmentation for eyes and hairs is an 'europoid' trait yet not universal among 'europoids';
    the 0% of something in rough autosomals admixtures is not the proof of 0% true admixture - the small numbers or alleles pairs involved in pigmentation can pass 'incognito' through rough estimations? all the way the unique way to know is a peer analysis of the chromosomes segments concerned by pigmentation (for what we know) as it has been done for red hairs among Jamaicans, which showed being caused by genes in European inherited segments.
    WHo knows: maybe it will be discovered other mutations among typica mongoloids? But I wait serious results before changing mind.
    Here are ethnic groups who have blonde hair and brown hair but yet still have 0% Caucasian admixture

    Australian aborigines with blonde/brown hair



    Solomon ( <----- one of highest percent of blonde )



    Hmong with red hair, blue eyes and blonde hair

    (red hair )


    (blonde hair )


    South Amerindian tribes Kuna and other Panama Amerindian



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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Gurka
    You say yourself Miongols have some degrees of 'caucasian' DNA and this is enough to explain the rare cases of light pigmentation which is not "not-unusual" as you say. To solve the problem it would be possible to make states of light pigmentations %s and 'caucasian' DNA %s ???

    &: the female of your post #35 is far to be pure mongloid, according to my criteria

    Thanks for the picture. I 'm not far to think that the first turkic speakers of Altai were (at this stage of the language birth) a predominently 'mongoloid' group but they had already a slight 'caucasian' admixture, which one augmented with time and colonizations towards West.
    Their caucasian admixture is too low. While I agree the small degree of caucasian admixture could be most likely the reason why these Mongolians have these light traits is also too strange....because of their extremely full Mongoloid appearance.

    Usually light hair and light eye traits on Half Asian / Half European tend to look more caucasoid but these Kazakhs, Mongolians, Nenets look either full Mongoloid or predominant Mongoloid.


    Here is a 50% Chinese, 50% New Zealander white.

    Despite the fact how she looks caucasoid, she has black hair with green eyes




    Others like this 50% Chinese, 50% French have green eyes , brown hair but still look more caucasoid than Mongoloid


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    Anatolian were mixed with the Turkic and Turkified Indo-Europeans to become the modern Turkish people.
    You said well

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    These guys might have albino mutation, rare but happens. If they live in South America they need to stay out of sun or they will get skin cancer very fast. Guy on the right has already some suspicious spots on his arms.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    By the way, we should clarify who were the "original Turks". The Turkicness of the Xiongnu & Huns is sometimes disputed.

    The Tiele people, described in Chinese chronicles, were Turks for sure (they lived in Siberia to the north of Mongolia):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiele_people

    They emerged after the disintegration of the Xiongnu confederation, which could be multi-ethnic (including Turks).

    The Turkic part of the Xiongnu could be descended from the Dinglings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingling

    The Huns who invaded Europe around year 375 AD (and remained powerful in the continent roughly for the next century) are believed to had been descended from the Xiongnu - or from some specific branch of the Xiongnu.

    Another multi-ethnic confederation were the Xianbei. From the Xianbei descended the Rouran (who are sometimes hypothesized to be the ancestors of the Avars, who invaded Europe in 561 AD, 200 years after the Huns, and also remained powerful for around a century), as well as Mongolic-speaking tribes and the Khitans, who spoke a language distantly related to Mongoloic languages.

    The first Kagan (ruler) of the Rouran, was an ethnic Chinese, who had before served as a mercenary cavalryman for the Xianbei.

    The name "Rouran" is of Chinese origin and means "swarming worms", perhaps reflecting the multi-ethnic character of that "horde".

    These connections of Xiongnu -> Huns and Rouran -> Avars are based, among other things, on similarity of names.

    What language the Avars spoke as their main language is also disputed - it could be even Iranic. But their origins were mixed.

    Between the Huns (375+ AD) and the Avars (561+ AD) there was also Slavic expansion (which continued after 561 AD as well), but where did Slavs come from is uncertain, probably not directly from the steppe because they were only semi-nomadic.

    The Magyars (Hungarians) - who were the next major ivaders from the steppe after Avars - spoke an Uralic language, something unusual for a steppe tribe. They were most likely of mixed origin, part of their ancestry being Turkic and perhaps also part Iranic.

    Ugric-speaking ancestors of Magyars adopted a nomadic lifestyle after coming into contact with Turkic and Iranic steppe tribes.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Gurka:

    OK for blond Southeastern Asians of Paleo block (some Pacific islands as Papooslike people and Australia Aborigenes: I had forgot them, sorry!
    I'm curious to know what mutation caused this, an indepandant one: the most probable. But the between area of Asia before reaching Eurasia show almost NO such partly or completely hair-eyes depigmented people and the phenomenon increase gradually with ancien 'europoids' contact in Steppes.
    concerning Spouthamerindians of the forest, the people you show are albinos, not blonds - the picture of the girl: his light red hair seem articificially coloured upon an albinos white hair. the difference between albinos and blonds is that that the blonding mutation affects solely partially the skin colour when albinism cause NO pigmentation at all.

    concerning your second post: 1) children dark blonds became rarely true blond adults (but it surely shows maybe a lightening mutation at a heterozygotic level).
    2) in crossings between A and B population as you know, the chromosomes and even the genes are exchanged between chomosomes (crossing over process) by the two "donors" ancestral populations and you cannot wait that every A trait would stay with all other A traits, the same for B traits: the result is a "mixture" and the dominantly european featured with dark complexion and the dominantly east-asian features with lighter complexion don't prove anything concerning the original distributions of traits among ancestral populations before crossing: even among "blacks" (for American criteria, that'sto say: no value on this field: for them, if you are not "anglo" or north European, your are a kind of "black") of the USA you finds sometimes a blond or a red haired man: for I know at this date, NO blond or red population (even partly) in SS Africa before colonization- North Africa: it's an other game...
    thanks all the way for pictures concerning people I was poorly aware of. Good week-end in debating forum.

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    Australo-Melanesians sometimes have blond hair, but they have their own mutation for it. There are a few mutations for blond hair in Western Eurasia and they are different. While these South Amerindians are - as LeBrok wrote - simply Albinos.

    Albinos have no pigment anywhere, also in hair, so they appear as blonde or even white-haired.

    Such Albinos can be found even in Sub-Saharan Africa as well.

    As for Hmongs - I think they could inherit their blond hair either from the West or from Australo-Melanesians.

    One needs to check which mutations for blond hair they have.

    As for that Hmong woman with red hair, that color looks artificial to me, probably it is dyed hair.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Tomenable: thanks for useful clarification.
    IT seems a lot of Steppes migration or invasion envolved almost everytime a sort of confederation of diverse tribes, sometimes (or everytime? I don't know), implying hyerarchy
    As you evocate AVars, their cimeteries in Hungarian plain contain several human types, with social stratification (the uppest: 'mongoloids' of 3 types, 1 'sinid' and a 1 from Baykal region and the typical almost long faced 'mongol' type) - East Asian high placed in society but low number: about 19% according to estimations always debatable.
    first nomadic Hungarians showed too a mix, even more europeanlike, where appeared types of South Central Asia of ancient Iranic and Tukicized iranoc elements.

    For Huns I don't know but surely crossed too in some level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Australo-Melanesians sometimes have blond hair, but they have their own mutation for it. There are a few mutations for blond hair in Western Eurasia and they are different. While these South Amerindians are - as LeBrok wrote - simply Albinos.

    Albinos have no pigment anywhere, also in hair, so they appear as blonde or even white-haired.

    Such Albinos can be found even in Sub-Saharan Africa as well.

    As for Hmongs - I think they could inherit their blond hair either from the West or from Australo-Melanesians.

    One needs to check which mutations for blond hair they have.

    As for that Hmong woman with red hair, that color looks artificial to me, probably it is dyed hair.

    The Hmong spoke of their ancestors having blonde, brown red hair but every autosomal DNA genetic shows they all have 0% west eurasian / caucasian admixture or Melanesian admixture.
    That hair doesn't look dyed to me but that's my opinon.


    Here is a Hmong man with reddish/brunette like hair


    Here is a Hmong girl with slightly reddish/brunette like hair


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