So it's official that Original Turks , Xiongnu, Huns, Gokturks were Mongoloid?

Do you agree with this claim?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 63.6%
  • No

    Votes: 9 27.3%
  • I'm still not sure

    Votes: 3 9.1%

  • Total voters
    33


THanks for kind communication of rough compilation texts plus some interesting pictures; nothing new to me.
they are interesting in that they show Udmurts have more europoid traits than mongoloid traits as a whole, and perhaps an old undifferantiated type at play too (the proto-uralic type of some scientists) - the point is that there are several mutations favorizing red hairs and that the three commonest are all centered in Europe among today 98% 'europoid' types; have we a typical "red hair mutation" specific for North Central Asia or East Asia? it could help.
when population mate one together, none has the property of the mutation, but different percentages can help to show the direction of flow and explain history.
Buona notte
 
Before other proofs I still think light pigmentation for eyes and hairs is an 'europoid' trait yet not universal among 'europoids';
the 0% of something in rough autosomals admixtures is not the proof of 0% true admixture - the small numbers or alleles pairs involved in pigmentation can pass 'incognito' through rough estimations? all the way the unique way to know is a peer analysis of the chromosomes segments concerned by pigmentation (for what we know) as it has been done for red hairs among Jamaicans, which showed being caused by genes in European inherited segments.
WHo knows: maybe it will be discovered other mutations among typica mongoloids? But I wait serious results before changing mind.

Here are ethnic groups who have blonde hair and brown hair but yet still have 0% Caucasian admixture

Australian aborigines with blonde/brown hair

0c5230067b9921c7825d46f313cdb729.jpg


Solomon ( <----- one of highest percent of blonde )

blonde-hair-dark-skin.jpg


Hmong with red hair, blue eyes and blonde hair

(red hair )
paisdigital043.jpg


(blonde hair )
attachment.php


South Amerindian tribes Kuna and other Panama Amerindian

tumblr_mamhomRVPa1r8vrhxo1_1280.jpg

albino-3824.jpg
 
@Gurka
You say yourself Miongols have some degrees of 'caucasian' DNA and this is enough to explain the rare cases of light pigmentation which is not "not-unusual" as you say. To solve the problem it would be possible to make states of light pigmentations %s and 'caucasian' DNA %s ???

&: the female of your post #35 is far to be pure mongloid, according to my criteria

Thanks for the picture. I 'm not far to think that the first turkic speakers of Altai were (at this stage of the language birth) a predominently 'mongoloid' group but they had already a slight 'caucasian' admixture, which one augmented with time and colonizations towards West.

Their caucasian admixture is too low. While I agree the small degree of caucasian admixture could be most likely the reason why these Mongolians have these light traits is also too strange....because of their extremely full Mongoloid appearance.

Usually light hair and light eye traits on Half Asian / Half European tend to look more caucasoid but these Kazakhs, Mongolians, Nenets look either full Mongoloid or predominant Mongoloid.


Here is a 50% Chinese, 50% New Zealander white.

Despite the fact how she looks caucasoid, she has black hair with green eyes

tumblr_nckr0vK6fJ1sbzfnjo1_500.jpg



Others like this 50% Chinese, 50% French have green eyes , brown hair but still look more caucasoid than Mongoloid

600full-mylene-jampanoi.jpg
 
tumblr_mamhomRVPa1r8vrhxo1_1280.jpg


These guys might have albino mutation, rare but happens. If they live in South America they need to stay out of sun or they will get skin cancer very fast. Guy on the right has already some suspicious spots on his arms.
 
By the way, we should clarify who were the "original Turks". The Turkicness of the Xiongnu & Huns is sometimes disputed.

The Tiele people, described in Chinese chronicles, were Turks for sure (they lived in Siberia to the north of Mongolia):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiele_people

They emerged after the disintegration of the Xiongnu confederation, which could be multi-ethnic (including Turks).

The Turkic part of the Xiongnu could be descended from the Dinglings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingling

The Huns who invaded Europe around year 375 AD (and remained powerful in the continent roughly for the next century) are believed to had been descended from the Xiongnu - or from some specific branch of the Xiongnu.

Another multi-ethnic confederation were the Xianbei. From the Xianbei descended the Rouran (who are sometimes hypothesized to be the ancestors of the Avars, who invaded Europe in 561 AD, 200 years after the Huns, and also remained powerful for around a century), as well as Mongolic-speaking tribes and the Khitans, who spoke a language distantly related to Mongoloic languages.

The first Kagan (ruler) of the Rouran, was an ethnic Chinese, who had before served as a mercenary cavalryman for the Xianbei.

The name "Rouran" is of Chinese origin and means "swarming worms", perhaps reflecting the multi-ethnic character of that "horde".

These connections of Xiongnu -> Huns and Rouran -> Avars are based, among other things, on similarity of names.

What language the Avars spoke as their main language is also disputed - it could be even Iranic. But their origins were mixed.

Between the Huns (375+ AD) and the Avars (561+ AD) there was also Slavic expansion (which continued after 561 AD as well), but where did Slavs come from is uncertain, probably not directly from the steppe because they were only semi-nomadic.

The Magyars (Hungarians) - who were the next major ivaders from the steppe after Avars - spoke an Uralic language, something unusual for a steppe tribe. They were most likely of mixed origin, part of their ancestry being Turkic and perhaps also part Iranic.

Ugric-speaking ancestors of Magyars adopted a nomadic lifestyle after coming into contact with Turkic and Iranic steppe tribes.
 
@Gurka:

OK for blond Southeastern Asians of Paleo block (some Pacific islands as Papooslike people and Australia Aborigenes: I had forgot them, sorry!
I'm curious to know what mutation caused this, an indepandant one: the most probable. But the between area of Asia before reaching Eurasia show almost NO such partly or completely hair-eyes depigmented people and the phenomenon increase gradually with ancien 'europoids' contact in Steppes.
concerning Spouthamerindians of the forest, the people you show are albinos, not blonds - the picture of the girl: his light red hair seem articificially coloured upon an albinos white hair. the difference between albinos and blonds is that that the blonding mutation affects solely partially the skin colour when albinism cause NO pigmentation at all.

concerning your second post: 1) children dark blonds became rarely true blond adults (but it surely shows maybe a lightening mutation at a heterozygotic level).
2) in crossings between A and B population as you know, the chromosomes and even the genes are exchanged between chomosomes (crossing over process) by the two "donors" ancestral populations and you cannot wait that every A trait would stay with all other A traits, the same for B traits: the result is a "mixture" and the dominantly european featured with dark complexion and the dominantly east-asian features with lighter complexion don't prove anything concerning the original distributions of traits among ancestral populations before crossing: even among "blacks" (for American criteria, that'sto say: no value on this field: for them, if you are not "anglo" or north European, your are a kind of "black") of the USA you finds sometimes a blond or a red haired man: for I know at this date, NO blond or red population (even partly) in SS Africa before colonization- North Africa: it's an other game...
thanks all the way for pictures concerning people I was poorly aware of. Good week-end in debating forum.
 
Australo-Melanesians sometimes have blond hair, but they have their own mutation for it. There are a few mutations for blond hair in Western Eurasia and they are different. While these South Amerindians are - as LeBrok wrote - simply Albinos.

Albinos have no pigment anywhere, also in hair, so they appear as blonde or even white-haired.

Such Albinos can be found even in Sub-Saharan Africa as well.

As for Hmongs - I think they could inherit their blond hair either from the West or from Australo-Melanesians.

One needs to check which mutations for blond hair they have.

As for that Hmong woman with red hair, that color looks artificial to me, probably it is dyed hair.
 
@Tomenable: thanks for useful clarification.
IT seems a lot of Steppes migration or invasion envolved almost everytime a sort of confederation of diverse tribes, sometimes (or everytime? I don't know), implying hyerarchy
As you evocate AVars, their cimeteries in Hungarian plain contain several human types, with social stratification (the uppest: 'mongoloids' of 3 types, 1 'sinid' and a 1 from Baykal region and the typical almost long faced 'mongol' type) - East Asian high placed in society but low number: about 19% according to estimations always debatable.
first nomadic Hungarians showed too a mix, even more europeanlike, where appeared types of South Central Asia of ancient Iranic and Tukicized iranoc elements.

For Huns I don't know but surely crossed too in some level.
 
Australo-Melanesians sometimes have blond hair, but they have their own mutation for it. There are a few mutations for blond hair in Western Eurasia and they are different. While these South Amerindians are - as LeBrok wrote - simply Albinos.

Albinos have no pigment anywhere, also in hair, so they appear as blonde or even white-haired.

Such Albinos can be found even in Sub-Saharan Africa as well.

As for Hmongs - I think they could inherit their blond hair either from the West or from Australo-Melanesians.

One needs to check which mutations for blond hair they have.

As for that Hmong woman with red hair, that color looks artificial to me, probably it is dyed hair.


The Hmong spoke of their ancestors having blonde, brown red hair but every autosomal DNA genetic shows they all have 0% west eurasian / caucasian admixture or Melanesian admixture.
That hair doesn't look dyed to me but that's my opinon.


Here is a Hmong man with reddish/brunette like hair
2014-10-09_0526.png


Here is a Hmong girl with slightly reddish/brunette like hair
black-hmong-children-sapa.jpg

Flower-Hmong-girl-in-Muong-Khuong.jpg
 
@Tomenable: thanks for useful clarification.
IT seems a lot of Steppes migration or invasion envolved almost everytime a sort of confederation of diverse tribes, sometimes (or everytime? I don't know), implying hyerarchy
As you evocate AVars, their cimeteries in Hungarian plain contain several human types, with social stratification (the uppest: 'mongoloids' of 3 types, 1 'sinid' and a 1 from Baykal region and the typical almost long faced 'mongol' type) - East Asian high placed in society but low number: about 19% according to estimations always debatable.
first nomadic Hungarians showed too a mix, even more europeanlike, where appeared types of South Central Asia of ancient Iranic and Tukicized iranoc elements.

For Huns I don't know but surely crossed too in some level.


Anthropological evidence[edit]

Anthropological research has revealed few skeletons with Mongoloid-type features, although there was continuing cultural influence from the Eurasian nomadic steppe. The late Avar period shows more hybridization, resulting in higher frequencies of Euro-Mongoloids.[24] Mongoloid and Euro-Mongoloid types compose about one-third of the total population of the Avar graves of the eighth century.[25] According to Pál Lipták the early Avar anthropological material was almost exclusively Europoid in the 7th century, while grave-goods indicated Middle and Central Asian parallels.[26] On the other hand, cemeteries dated for the 8th century contained Mongoloid elements among others. He analysed population of theDanube-Tisza midland region in the Avar period and found that 80% of them showed Europoid characteristics.[26] The Turanid was most common Europoid type among the Avars graves. Pál Lipták (1955) the Turanid type is a Caucasoid type with significant Mongoloid admixture, arising from the mixture of the Andronovo type of Europoid features and the Oriental (Mongoloid).[27]

Yeah, the Central Asian nomads seems very complicated. There are Turks, Turkified Indo-European, mix breeds

They race includes Mongoloid , Mongoloid-Europoid, Europoid with slight Mongoloid admixture, Europoid with some Mongoloid admixture,
 
but every autosomal DNA genetic shows they all have 0% west eurasian / caucasian admixture or Melanesian admixture.

That's because the admixture was a long time ago. If something was a long time ago, it will show 0% today using methods that they use for such calculations. For example, we are all from Africa but calculations show 0% African admixture. But in case of Paleolithic specimens, like Kostenki14, Ush-Ishtim or Oase - calculatorsshow at least few percent of African admixture for them.

That's because those Paleolithic specimens lived much closer in time to the Out-of-Africa event than we do.

Remember that all of these autosomal calculators only examine similarities to modern populations, not to ancient ones.

Anyway - they could acquire these traits from ANE (Ancient North Eurasians). Remember, that Sardinians score as "ideal Caucasoids", but they are dark-pigmented. In my opinion light pigmentation of hair could be from descendants of ANE
. EHG were ANE-admixed and had many light traits. All Indo-Europeans from the steppe were ANE-admixed and had many light-pigmented people.

By the way, in Dienekes' globe4 calculator, Loschbour WHG hunter (who lived in Western Europe) scored:

  • 86.40% European
  • 12.72% Amerindian
  • 0.87% African
  • 0.01% Asian
In globe4 he scored 13% Native American, but he did not score any ANE in calculators which actually include ANE.

In general not all calculators are good, scores always depend on what populations are actually being compared.
 
That's because the admixture was a long time ago. If something was a long time ago, it will show 0% today using methods that they use for such calculations. For example, we are all from Africa but calculations show 0% African admixture. But in case of Paleolithic specimens, like Kostenki14, Ush-Ishtim or Oase - calculatorsshow at least few percent of African admixture for them.

That's because those Paleolithic specimens lived much closer in time to the Out-of-Africa event than we do.

Remember that all of these autosomal calculators only examine similarities to modern populations, not to ancient ones.

Anyway - they could acquire these traits from ANE (Ancient North Eurasians). Remember, that Sardinians score as "ideal Caucasoids", but they are dark-pigmented. In my opinion light pigmentation of hair could be from descendants of ANE
. EHG were ANE-admixed and had many light traits. All Indo-Europeans from the steppe were ANE-admixed and had many light-pigmented people.

By the way, in Dienekes' globe4 calculator, Loschbour WHG hunter (who lived in Western Europe) scored:

  • 86.40% European
  • 12.72% Amerindian
  • 0.87% African
  • 0.01% Asian
In globe4 he scored 13% Native American, but he did not score any ANE in calculators which actually include ANE.

In general not all calculators are good, scores always depend on what populations are actually being compared.

The sun's effect. Have you ever heard of beach hair? Pigmentation wise, hair becomes lighter. It also becomes drier and damaged, which results in further bleaching. Like I said again, Hmong score 0% Caucasian/ western Eurasian admixture, we can see the same development in the Melanesian population and other Southeast Asian population.


Besides it seems ridicolous to claim these Hmong blondes ( with 0% of any Caucasian phenotypes ) is due to western Eurasian admixture while we have many full blooded caucasians who have black hair and other Eurasians with black hair.

tumblr_lyhvydVN4U1rorrqno1_400.jpg


You can see the same effect on other southeast Asian ethnic groups ( NON- hmong )

Blondes/brown
tumblr_m9bw3kETp01rsqusgo1_1280.png


Red hair
2526662631_c23d907179.jpg
 
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These Hmongs mostly have just childhood blondness (while when they become adults, their hair is getting dark).

However, I have found also one photo of an adult Hmong with rather light hair:

5240674388_2892aa7715_z.jpg


But Hmongs have South-East Asian origin, so their variant of blonde may be the same as Australo-Melanesian:

"Southeast Asian origins of five Hill Tribe populations and correlation of genetic to linguistic relationships inferred with genome-wide SNP data":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3021592/

"Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes":

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024282

Also, it seems that Hmongs have some mtDNA haplogroup W, which is not typically East Asian, but rather West-South Asian and European:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_W_(mtDNA)
 
These Hmongs mostly have just childhood blondness (while when they become adults, their hair is getting dark).

However, I have found also one photo of an adult Hmong with rather light hair:

5240674388_2892aa7715_z.jpg


But Hmongs have South-East Asian origin, so their variant of blonde may be the same as Australo-Melanesian:

"Southeast Asian origins of five Hill Tribe populations and correlation of genetic to linguistic relationships inferred with genome-wide SNP data":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3021592/

"Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes":

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024282

Also, it seems that Hmongs have some mtDNA haplogroup W, which is not typically East Asian, but rather West-South Asian and European:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_W_(mtDNA)

Some? they only found 1 out of 537, so it's like 0.18% < far less than one percent

I seriously doubt that these blonde/red/brown hair Hmong is due 0.18% ( Soutwest Asian marker), even the Burmese and Thais have 5-20% West Eurasian / South Asian mtDNA marker and you don't see any of them with light hair traits and besides mtDNA W is a haplotype that is so prominent in the dark, brown swarthy caucasoids with far less blondes and brown hair than Hmong.


Autsomal DNA of Hmong is 100% Mongoloid/East Eurasian.


2mi5fs3.jpg





Here are more light haired Hmong adults

34495_410261142535_548612535_5048101_1824566_n.jpg

34495_410261142535_548612535_5048101_1824566_n-1.jpg
 
34495_410261142535_548612535_5048101_1824566_n.jpg


Wow, they are like "Irish" white.
 
Autsomal DNA of Hmong is 100% Mongoloid/East Eurasian.

K=4 is a very low resolution (just 4 components), so in most comparisons it cannot be very useful anyway.

But the thing is that it doesn't show what you claim it does - Japanese scored 100% orange, which is East Asian.

By contrast - Hmong scored mostly purple, which is Southeast Asian, and therefore not pure Mongoloid.

South-East Asians emerged as the result of mixing of North-East Asians with Australo-Melanesians and Negritos.

So your data actually proves my point that they can have the same variant of blond as Solomon Islanders.
 
and besides mtDNA W is a haplotype that is so prominent in the dark, brown swarthy caucasoids

Actually no - at least in Europe W tends to be common in areas where blond hair is also common. The correlation is not perfect (for example it does not work for Hungary), but you can't say that W is more common in dark-pigmented populations:

mtDNA-W-map.png


Light hair in Europe:

Light_Hair.jpg


Light eyes and fair hair in Europe:

Alleles.png


==========================================

As for possible Turkic / East Asian admixture in Europe and possible links with some phenotypes.

Here is a map by Maciamo showing the frequency of East Asian/North Asian mtDNA haplogroups:

Map of East/North Asian mtDNA in Europe (LINK)

I've noticed, that the area with the highest % of East/North Asian mtDNA in Poland, coincides with area with the highest frequency of Lapponoid phenotype / anthropological type according to Stanislav Górny, "Anthropological Territories of Poland". Górny divided Poland into three territories - southern with prevalence (plurality) of Lapponoid type, central with prevalence of Sub-Nordic type (which is basically brachycephalized / broader-headed version of Nordic) and northern with prevalence of Nordic type:

S_Gorny.png


In Hungary on the other hand, so called Turanid types (TUR) are quite common:

(as I wrote, the Ugric-speaking Magayrs mixed with Turkic tribes once they settled in the steppe):

 
Another video - I didn't know that such very Asian looking people can also be found in Hungary:
(they are obviously rare because most of Hungarians I know look clearly European - but still):


Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf-Q9rAieWU

Are all of these people actually ethnic Hungarians, or are some of them recent immigrants?

=======================================

In Scandinavia you can also find people who look mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid, or even genuinely East Asian - like singer Bjork:

bjork-singer-wallpaper-wallpaper-9b9c6a29f95dda29b5357f9f2b53d288-big-66375.jpg


People speculated that she might be descended from Amerindians who were - supposedly - brought back to Iceland by Vikings.

But this story sounds like a legend - and actually in Scandinavia "proper" there are also many people who look similar, and frequency of East/North Asian mtDNA is actually higher in - for example - Sweden, than in Iceland (see the map above).

There is of course also Y-DNA haplogroup Q, which might be ultimately from East Asians, even if assimilated early on by PIEs:

Haplogroup-Q.gif


One sample of Q was found among steppe people of Khvalynsk culture - perhaps an Eastern visitor to Indo-European homeland?
 
One think that is very peculiar in Sweden (at least from my observations):

A lot of Swedes are light blonde-haired, but also a lot of Swedes are very black-haired. On the other hand, intermediate hair colours are not so frequent - not as frequent as in many other countries with both fewer blondes and fewer black-haired people.

By intermediate I mean darker shades of blonde and various shades of brown.

Among Poles, for example, intermediate colours are most frequent, while very light blond and black as coal are less frequent.
 

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