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Thread: So it's official that Original Turks , Xiongnu, Huns, Gokturks were Mongoloid?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Tomenable: thanks for useful clarification.
    IT seems a lot of Steppes migration or invasion envolved almost everytime a sort of confederation of diverse tribes, sometimes (or everytime? I don't know), implying hyerarchy
    As you evocate AVars, their cimeteries in Hungarian plain contain several human types, with social stratification (the uppest: 'mongoloids' of 3 types, 1 'sinid' and a 1 from Baykal region and the typical almost long faced 'mongol' type) - East Asian high placed in society but low number: about 19% according to estimations always debatable.
    first nomadic Hungarians showed too a mix, even more europeanlike, where appeared types of South Central Asia of ancient Iranic and Tukicized iranoc elements.

    For Huns I don't know but surely crossed too in some level.

    Anthropological evidence[edit]

    Anthropological research has revealed few skeletons with Mongoloid-type features, although there was continuing cultural influence from the Eurasian nomadic steppe. The late Avar period shows more hybridization, resulting in higher frequencies of Euro-Mongoloids.[24] Mongoloid and Euro-Mongoloid types compose about one-third of the total population of the Avar graves of the eighth century.[25] According to Pál Lipták the early Avar anthropological material was almost exclusively Europoid in the 7th century, while grave-goods indicated Middle and Central Asian parallels.[26] On the other hand, cemeteries dated for the 8th century contained Mongoloid elements among others. He analysed population of theDanube-Tisza midland region in the Avar period and found that 80% of them showed Europoid characteristics.[26] The Turanid was most common Europoid type among the Avars graves. Pál Lipták (1955) the Turanid type is a Caucasoid type with significant Mongoloid admixture, arising from the mixture of the Andronovo type of Europoid features and the Oriental (Mongoloid).[27]

    Yeah, the Central Asian nomads seems very complicated. There are Turks, Turkified Indo-European, mix breeds

    They race includes Mongoloid , Mongoloid-Europoid, Europoid with slight Mongoloid admixture, Europoid with some Mongoloid admixture,

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    but every autosomal DNA genetic shows they all have 0% west eurasian / caucasian admixture or Melanesian admixture.
    That's because the admixture was a long time ago. If something was a long time ago, it will show 0% today using methods that they use for such calculations. For example, we are all from Africa but calculations show 0% African admixture. But in case of Paleolithic specimens, like Kostenki14, Ush-Ishtim or Oase - calculatorsshow at least few percent of African admixture for them.

    That's because those Paleolithic specimens lived much closer in time to the Out-of-Africa event than we do.

    Remember that all of these autosomal calculators only examine similarities to modern populations, not to ancient ones.

    Anyway - they could acquire these traits from ANE (Ancient North Eurasians). Remember, that Sardinians score as "ideal Caucasoids", but they are dark-pigmented. In my opinion light pigmentation of hair could be from descendants of ANE
    . EHG were ANE-admixed and had many light traits. All Indo-Europeans from the steppe were ANE-admixed and had many light-pigmented people.

    By the way, in Dienekes' globe4 calculator, Loschbour WHG hunter (who lived in Western Europe) scored:

    • 86.40% European
    • 12.72% Amerindian
    • 0.87% African
    • 0.01% Asian

    In globe4 he scored 13% Native American, but he did not score any ANE in calculators which actually include ANE.

    In general not all calculators are good, scores always depend on what populations are actually being compared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    That's because the admixture was a long time ago. If something was a long time ago, it will show 0% today using methods that they use for such calculations. For example, we are all from Africa but calculations show 0% African admixture. But in case of Paleolithic specimens, like Kostenki14, Ush-Ishtim or Oase - calculatorsshow at least few percent of African admixture for them.

    That's because those Paleolithic specimens lived much closer in time to the Out-of-Africa event than we do.

    Remember that all of these autosomal calculators only examine similarities to modern populations, not to ancient ones.

    Anyway - they could acquire these traits from ANE (Ancient North Eurasians). Remember, that Sardinians score as "ideal Caucasoids", but they are dark-pigmented. In my opinion light pigmentation of hair could be from descendants of ANE
    . EHG were ANE-admixed and had many light traits. All Indo-Europeans from the steppe were ANE-admixed and had many light-pigmented people.

    By the way, in Dienekes' globe4 calculator, Loschbour WHG hunter (who lived in Western Europe) scored:

    • 86.40% European
    • 12.72% Amerindian
    • 0.87% African
    • 0.01% Asian

    In globe4 he scored 13% Native American, but he did not score any ANE in calculators which actually include ANE.

    In general not all calculators are good, scores always depend on what populations are actually being compared.
    The sun's effect. Have you ever heard of beach hair? Pigmentation wise, hair becomes lighter. It also becomes drier and damaged, which results in further bleaching. Like I said again, Hmong score 0% Caucasian/ western Eurasian admixture, we can see the same development in the Melanesian population and other Southeast Asian population.


    Besides it seems ridicolous to claim these Hmong blondes ( with 0% of any Caucasian phenotypes ) is due to western Eurasian admixture while we have many full blooded caucasians who have black hair and other Eurasians with black hair.



    You can see the same effect on other southeast Asian ethnic groups ( NON- hmong )

    Blondes/brown


    Red hair
    Last edited by Gurka atla; 12-12-15 at 15:37.

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    These Hmongs mostly have just childhood blondness (while when they become adults, their hair is getting dark).

    However, I have found also one photo of an adult Hmong with rather light hair:



    But Hmongs have South-East Asian origin, so their variant of blonde may be the same as Australo-Melanesian:

    "Southeast Asian origins of five Hill Tribe populations and correlation of genetic to linguistic relationships inferred with genome-wide SNP data":

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3021592/

    "Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes":

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0024282

    Also, it seems that Hmongs have some mtDNA haplogroup W, which is not typically East Asian, but rather West-South Asian and European:

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_W_%28mtDNA%29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    These Hmongs mostly have just childhood blondness (while when they become adults, their hair is getting dark).

    However, I have found also one photo of an adult Hmong with rather light hair:



    But Hmongs have South-East Asian origin, so their variant of blonde may be the same as Australo-Melanesian:

    "Southeast Asian origins of five Hill Tribe populations and correlation of genetic to linguistic relationships inferred with genome-wide SNP data":

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3021592/

    "Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes":

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0024282

    Also, it seems that Hmongs have some mtDNA haplogroup W, which is not typically East Asian, but rather West-South Asian and European:

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_W_%28mtDNA%29
    Some? they only found 1 out of 537, so it's like 0.18% < far less than one percent

    I seriously doubt that these blonde/red/brown hair Hmong is due 0.18% ( Soutwest Asian marker), even the Burmese and Thais have 5-20% West Eurasian / South Asian mtDNA marker and you don't see any of them with light hair traits and besides mtDNA W is a haplotype that is so prominent in the dark, brown swarthy caucasoids with far less blondes and brown hair than Hmong.


    Autsomal DNA of Hmong is 100% Mongoloid/East Eurasian.







    Here are more light haired Hmong adults



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    Wow, they are like "Irish" white.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Autsomal DNA of Hmong is 100% Mongoloid/East Eurasian.
    K=4 is a very low resolution (just 4 components), so in most comparisons it cannot be very useful anyway.

    But the thing is that it doesn't show what you claim it does - Japanese scored 100% orange, which is East Asian.

    By contrast - Hmong scored mostly purple, which is Southeast Asian, and therefore not pure Mongoloid.

    South-East Asians emerged as the result of mixing of North-East Asians with Australo-Melanesians and Negritos.

    So your data actually proves my point that they can have the same variant of blond as Solomon Islanders.

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    and besides mtDNA W is a haplotype that is so prominent in the dark, brown swarthy caucasoids
    Actually no - at least in Europe W tends to be common in areas where blond hair is also common. The correlation is not perfect (for example it does not work for Hungary), but you can't say that W is more common in dark-pigmented populations:



    Light hair in Europe:



    Light eyes and fair hair in Europe:



    ==========================================

    As for possible Turkic / East Asian admixture in Europe and possible links with some phenotypes.

    Here is a map by Maciamo showing the frequency of East Asian/North Asian mtDNA haplogroups:

    Map of East/North Asian mtDNA in Europe (LINK)

    I've noticed, that the area with the highest % of East/North Asian mtDNA in Poland, coincides with area with the highest frequency of Lapponoid phenotype / anthropological type according to Stanislav Górny, "Anthropological Territories of Poland". Górny divided Poland into three territories - southern with prevalence (plurality) of Lapponoid type, central with prevalence of Sub-Nordic type (which is basically brachycephalized / broader-headed version of Nordic) and northern with prevalence of Nordic type:



    In Hungary on the other hand, so called Turanid types (TUR) are quite common:

    (as I wrote, the Ugric-speaking Magayrs mixed with Turkic tribes once they settled in the steppe):


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    Another video - I didn't know that such very Asian looking people can also be found in Hungary:
    (they are obviously rare because most of Hungarians I know look clearly European - but still):



    Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf-Q9rAieWU

    Are all of these people actually ethnic Hungarians, or are some of them recent immigrants?

    =======================================

    In Scandinavia you can also find people who look mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid, or even genuinely East Asian - like singer Bjork:



    People speculated that she might be descended from Amerindians who were - supposedly - brought back to Iceland by Vikings.

    But this story sounds like a legend - and actually in Scandinavia "proper" there are also many people who look similar, and frequency of East/North Asian mtDNA is actually higher in - for example - Sweden, than in Iceland (see the map above).

    There is of course also Y-DNA haplogroup Q, which might be ultimately from East Asians, even if assimilated early on by PIEs:



    One sample of Q was found among steppe people of Khvalynsk culture - perhaps an Eastern visitor to Indo-European homeland?

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    One think that is very peculiar in Sweden (at least from my observations):

    A lot of Swedes are light blonde-haired, but also a lot of Swedes are very black-haired. On the other hand, intermediate hair colours are not so frequent - not as frequent as in many other countries with both fewer blondes and fewer black-haired people.

    By intermediate I mean darker shades of blonde and various shades of brown.

    Among Poles, for example, intermediate colours are most frequent, while very light blond and black as coal are less frequent.

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    There is a website SNPedia, with a search engine available:

    http://snpedia.com/index.php?title=S...ulltext=Search

    Type "blond" and we find that there are over a dozen mutations associated with blond hair.

    Most of them are western, but a few can be found outside of Western Eurasian populations.

    As for Melanesian blond hair:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...MC3481182/#SD1

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post


    Wow, they are like "Irish" white.

    Like Irish white? so you're telling me a Mongoloid can look Irish with light eyes/ hair?

    Maybe dalits / South Indian australoids look more Irish white







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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Actually no - at least in Europe W tends to be common in areas where blond hair is also common. The correlation is not perfect (for example it does not work for Hungary), but you can't say that W is more common in dark-pigmented populations:



    Light hair in Europe:



    Light eyes and fair hair in Europe:



    ==========================================

    As for possible Turkic / East Asian admixture in Europe and possible links with some phenotypes.

    Here is a map by Maciamo showing the frequency of East Asian/North Asian mtDNA haplogroups:

    Map of East/North Asian mtDNA in Europe (LINK)

    I've noticed, that the area with the highest % of East/North Asian mtDNA in Poland, coincides with area with the highest frequency of Lapponoid phenotype / anthropological type according to Stanislav Górny, "Anthropological Territories of Poland". Górny divided Poland into three territories - southern with prevalence (plurality) of Lapponoid type, central with prevalence of Sub-Nordic type (which is basically brachycephalized / broader-headed version of Nordic) and northern with prevalence of Nordic type:



    In Hungary on the other hand, so called Turanid types (TUR) are quite common:

    (as I wrote, the Ugric-speaking Magayrs mixed with Turkic tribes once they settled in the steppe):









    This marker is not common on world but it reachest highest frequencies in ethnic minorities of Middle east.

    Haplogroup mtDNA W in Middle eastern ethnic groups




    mtDNA Iranian Kurdistan.

    I - 5%
    W - 10%
    HV* - 10%
    HV1 - 5%
    HV2 - 5%
    H - 10%
    U5 - 5%
    U7 - 20%
    U8b - 10%
    K - 10%
    J1 - 10%



    Iran zoroastrian 13% mtDNA W

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrians_in_Iran




    Clade W* is found in 8.3% of the
    Svan population of the Caucasus


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svans


    Here are Iran Kurdish, they have 10% W





    Iran Zorochastrians 13% mtDNA W



    Indian Zorochastrians (descendants from Iran )



    Svan people 8.3% mtDNA W from South Caucasus, borthering Georgia, Azerbaijan




    Scandinavians are the blondest and lightest hair people. The Swedes , Danish have lower percentage ( 1-2% ) of mtDNA W than some South/Central European ( 3-4% , 5-6% , 6-7% ) and Middle easternerns (3-4%)

    mtDNA W clearly does not correlate with blonde or light hair






    Turkish people have 6.7% East Asian/Northeast Asian paternal DNA and 13% East Asian/Northeast Asian maternal DNA but these East Eurasian DNA could be far more higher, the real percentage could be 22% for each male and female because we have know that the Turkic invaders had intebreeded with Indo-European. The Kygyz are racially predominant Mongoloid but they have 65% Caucasian Y-DNA and 42% Caucasian mtDNA and I suspect some of the R1b, R1a in Turkey properly came from partially intebreded Mongoloid males.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Another video - I didn't know that such very Asian looking people can also be found in Hungary:
    (they are obviously rare because most of Hungarians I know look clearly European - but still):



    Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf-Q9rAieWU

    Are all of these people actually ethnic Hungarians, or are some of them recent immigrants?

    =======================================

    In Scandinavia you can also find people who look mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid, or even genuinely East Asian - like singer Bjork:



    People speculated that she might be descended from Amerindians who were - supposedly - brought back to Iceland by Vikings.

    But this story sounds like a legend - and actually in Scandinavia "proper" there are also many people who look similar, and frequency of East/North Asian mtDNA is actually higher in - for example - Sweden, than in Iceland (see the map above).

    There is of course also Y-DNA haplogroup Q, which might be ultimately from East Asians, even if assimilated early on by PIEs:



    One sample of Q was found among steppe people of Khvalynsk culture - perhaps an Eastern visitor to Indo-European homeland?

    There people are just a Asiatic throwback.


    Here is 2 white parents with a black child, the white father carried the gene of a Black ancestors slave and passed it to this generation


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    There people are just a Asiatic throwback.


    Here is 2 white parents with a black child, the white father carried the gene of a Black ancestors slave and passed it to this generation

    Or more like that
    Gesture_raised_fist_with_index_and_pinky_lifted.jpg
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    That map is quite weird imo. I dunno why the far asian admixture is stronger in western Anatolia than to central and eastern part since Mongols (Ilkhanate), Seljuks, Ottomans and even Timurid (Tamerlano) entered and settled more in central and eastern part. Maybe after the expulsion of christians (greeks,armenians etc) the western Anatolia was settled by other peoples?


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    That map is quite weird imo. I dunno why the far asian admixture is stronger in western Anatolia than to central and eastern part since Mongols (Ilkhanate), Seljuks, Ottomans and even Timurid (Tamerlano) entered and settled more in central and eastern part. Maybe after the expulsion of christians (greeks,armenians etc) the western Anatolia was settled by other peoples?


    There was a huge migrations of Turkic and Turkified people to populate regions of Greek speaking areas and other non-Turkic speaking areas.


    That's because there is 15 million Kurdish minorities. Almost all Kurdish speakers are populated in East Turkey regions so they make up the predominant population in the eastern part.





    In fact they even dream of their own Kurdistan country in Turkey (which will always be a dream)



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    Yeah this explain all. Basically a relocation of turkic peoples into the west.

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    That map is quite weird imo. I dunno why the far asian admixture is stronger in western Anatolia
    Western Anatolia is inhabited mostly by Turks, while Eastern Anatolia mostly by Kurds.

    So East Asian admixture is lower in areas with ethnically Kurdish population.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is 2 white parents with a black child, the white father carried the gene of a Black ancestors slave and passed it to this generation
    No, it was like this:

    “Most likely, Joseph Smith had had sex with a prostitute who just prior to that had sex with an anonymous black dude who came inside her. When Joseph Smith made love to the prostitute, sperm from the black man inside the prostitute got caught up in his foreskin. Later, the same day, Joseph Smith went home and made love to his wife. Now, the black dude’s sperm, which was on the tip of his penis made it’s way to Mary’s vagina and fertilized her eggs.”
    http://wadiyan.com/2013/04/09/miracl...white-parents/


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    There was a huge migrations of Turkic and Turkified people to populate regions of Greek speaking areas and other non-Turkic speaking areas.


    That's because there is 15 million Kurdish minorities. Almost all Kurdish speakers are populated in East Turkey regions so they make up the predominant population in the eastern part.





    In fact they even dream of their own Kurdistan country in Turkey (which will always be a dream)



    top picture using the mid-green should be the nation called Kurdistan
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Yeah this explain all. Basically a relocation of turkic peoples into the west.

    But even in the west it was filled with all Kind of non-Turkic ethnicties. Turkey was inhabited Hittites, Persians, Luwians, Hurrians, Armenians, Greeks, Cimmerians, Galatians, Colchians,Iberians, Carians, Lydians, Lycians, Phrygians, Arameans, Assyrians, Corduenes, Cappadocians, Cilicians, Kurds and scores of others. The presence of many Greeks, and the process of Hellenization,


    Than there was the
    assimilation, voluntary and involuntary, including the Anatolian, Balkan, Caucasian and Middle Eastern peoples from different ethnic origins, such as the Albanians, Arabs, Armenians, Assyrians, Circassians, Greeks, Jews, Romani, South Slavic peoples and East Slavic Ukrainians, Iranic peoples such as Kurds, as well as Lazs from all the regions of the Ottoman Empire and Iran.

    Turkey properly has the most complex history in all the Europe/Middle east region.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    top picture using the mid-green should be the nation called Kurdistan
    Properly that region was not even Kurdish in the past. This was Anatolian in 200 BC which is already complexed enough.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    There people are just a Asiatic throwback.


    Here is 2 white parents with a black child, the white father carried the gene of a Black ancestors slave and passed it to this generation


    Sorry, Gurka, but this child seems very very 50/50 so almost a genuine 'metis even if in fact his true father is only 80/90% "black": it's not only a question of pigmentation but form of hair, of nose, mouth and so on; never two parents of this kind can without a magic trick give birth to this kind of metis; some europoid" or "SS-african" traits can be hidden at some level but two completely white skins give never a so pigmented child (and at this young age!); the "black" north American families where babies are classified as "white" and "black" include rarely very "black" skinned people and when "white" skinned people occur, they show always some SSAfrican traits, even if slight.
    plus: Keep in mind most of the visible African traits are dominant: black hair, black eyes, very curly hair ... other traits are not but...
    there is not complete thowback among mixed people where a component has been drastically wahsed out by time and history, or I missed a huge thing?
    That said, I agree with you concerning the West Turkey population: repopulation - ? OR/AND ? front ligne warriors like in other historic colonizations after conflict in old times?

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    @Gurka:
    OK for the most you say; concerning Avars what you say is not too different from what I said; but if Avars were at first 'europoids' people, why their elite seemed more 'mongoloid'? a mystery for me.
    concerning pigmentation (we passed a lot of time about it!) and auDNA, we need deeper auDNA analysis and more numerous stuff with %s for pigmentation; in Asia (Indochine of the Frenchies) scholars of ancient time found only 1 blond for 1000 by instance (there, as said Tomenable, the blondism could be of Oceanian origin, only DNA can say.
    the rare red hair found today among Easter Islands population would be of european origin concerning DNA if I red well and believed Genetiker (?) as for Jamaicans.
    good evening

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